Tiger, Brady, Jordan, Gretzky or Novak…who you got!?!?

[tatertot]

On 9/17/2023 at 2:09 AM, iBanesto said:

 

😅

 

Aleksandr Karelin.

 

Most dominant Greco-Roman wrestler of all time.

• 887 wins and 2 losses.
• 3 Olympic golds
• 9 World Championship golds
• 12 European Championship golds

 

 

Rulon Gardner says "HELLO!"

[golfortennis]

On 9/13/2023 at 12:57 PM, Dan Drake said:

Gretzky -  As close to a correct answer as you are going to get to this question....

 

 

Yes, but the thing is, you have hockey historians who will say there is a big 4, and there is some merit to that.  Mario Lemieux might be the most physically gifted player in the history of the game, with one of the greatest seasons in history(160 points in 60, and oh yeah, he missed those 22 because of a little leukemia he had to deal with), and the best non-Gretzky point total in a season.  He is a huge what if guy.  Gordie Howe was the all time scoring leader until Gretzky showed up, was 1st or 2nd team all-star 21 times, won 6 MVPs and 6 scoring titles.  Bobby Orr might be an even bigger what if than Lemieux.  8 Norris trophies (best defenseman) in a row and 2 scoring titles *as a defenseman*.  Two Stanley Cups for a franchise that was a laughing stock for decades.  He revolutionized the position.  He is even said to have killed penalties by simply skating around with the puck, and he was so good the opponents couldn't take it from him.

 

Gretzky, did have the explosion of scoring in his favor, but so did the other guys.  He won 10 scoring titles, 8 straight MVPs(9 in total), would be the all time scoring leader had he never scored a goal.  He became the all time scoring leader in his 11th season.  For six seasons his average margin of victory in the scoring race was 73 points.  That's a solid NHL player who will get 10 plus years in the league.  Oh and he's the all time playoff scoring leader as well, so in case anyone thought he didn't show up in crunch time, you'll need to think again.

 

 As huge of a Roger Federer fan as I am, I don't know that any of those three can be considered the greatest.  Because court surfaces have become so homogenized, it has allowed the top players to really monopolize all the majors.  There used to be a real difference between grass and hardcourt and clay.  Look at the court for a Wimbledon final today vs 30 years ago.  The wear is in a completely different spot.  A guy like Lendl or Wilander likely grabs a couple titles there.  Sampras and McEnroe likely grab a couple French Open titles.  Bjorn Borg won 6 French Opens(4 in a row) and won 5 Wimbledons in a row.  3 of them gave him the "Channel Slam", which going from clay to grass in an era when there were still specialists is a very difficult thing to do.  

 

Interesting discussion.  I know ESPN ranked Muhammad Ali greatest athlete of the 1900s, but even there, considering how many fights he lost, can you call him the best boxer ever?  I will concede that unlike some modern fighters, he didn't duck guys.  He fought 'em all, and some beat him.  

 

I really don't see how a football player from the last decade or so could be considered the greatest, especially a QB, when the rules have been so tilted in their favor.  I think Jim Brown might have an even better case than Rice.

[NRJyzr]

On 9/10/2023 at 8:12 PM, tatertot said:

How did Tiger and Brady get on this list?

 

I especially agree about Brady.  Not sure how you can give a guy credit for being a human Madden QB.

 

[NRJyzr]

On 9/13/2023 at 3:09 PM, Dan Drake said:

Also, please note that I did not say Kobe or Lebron was better, only that they are in the conversation.  Russell & Wilt should be as well, IMHO, but Jordan is the BBall GOAT to me. 

 

Have to add a comment...

 

Russell, no.  He was a great leader, but not one of the greatest players of all time.  Wilt is #1 IMHO.  If you want to talk about chips with Jordan, there are a number of guys ahead of him.

 

In team sports, teams win titles, not individuals.

 

[Dan Drake]

3 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Have to add a comment...

 

Russell, no.  He was a great leader, but not one of the greatest players of all time.  Wilt is #1 IMHO.  If you want to talk about chips with Jordan, there are a number of guys ahead of him.

 

In team sports, teams win titles, not individuals.

 

So, quick question: Do we consider baseball & cricket team sports or individual sports since they really are the "aggregate" of many, many individual/two-person competitions and have the stats to use for comparison? 

[NRJyzr]

1 hour ago, Dan Drake said:

So, quick question: Do we consider baseball & cricket team sports or individual sports since they really are the "aggregate" of many, many individual/two-person competitions and have the stats to use for comparison? 

 

I will have to defer on the subject of cricket, I don't even know enough to be dangerous.

 

As for baseball, yes, very much a team sport.  Example Number One is a pitcher's win-loss record.  Example Number Two is the RBI stat for hitters (edit: 2008 NL is a great example).  And so on.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by NRJyzr

[KNOWMOREDOUBLES]

On 9/21/2023 at 10:28 PM, mshills said:

Jordan, Pele, and Ali are in a class of their own IMO. 
 

Greatness. Longevity. Clutch. Toughness, physical and mental. Worldwide celebrity. Significance outside of the sport. You name it, these guys have it. 

Brady is on this class also. 7 Super Bowl rings, 10 appearances. As clutch as any athlete ever. Has the stats and rings to back it up. Gretzky and Novak belong also.

[tatertot]

3 minutes ago, KNOWMOREDOUBLES said:

Brady is on this class also. 7 Super Bowl rings, 10 appearances. As clutch as any athlete ever. Has the stats and rings to back it up. Gretzky and Novak belong also.

He's a QB, not a football player. Especially with the rules the way they are today. 

 

Greatest football player of all time is still Jim Brown. Or maybe Barry Sanders. Dick Butkus and Lawrence Tayler were pretty good, too.

[KNOWMOREDOUBLES]

I would love to Mike Tyson at his peak vs Ali or even Holyfield. The young Tyson was a phenomenal fighter. Both offensively and defensively. He moved and fought with a plan. The post prison Tyson was just throwing hay makers with zero strategy. Not even close to the same fighter.

[KNOWMOREDOUBLES]

2 minutes ago, tatertot said:

He's a QB, not a football player. Especially with the rules the way they are today. 

 

Greatest football player of all time is still Jim Brown. Or maybe Barry Sanders. Dick Butkus and Lawrence Tayler were pretty good, too.

That is fine. One of the reasons the rules changed was because of New England’s defense kicking the crap out of poor Peyton and his soft receivers. 

[NRJyzr]

3 hours ago, KNOWMOREDOUBLES said:

Brady is on this class also. 7 Super Bowl rings, 10 appearances. As clutch as any athlete ever. Has the stats and rings to back it up. Gretzky and Novak belong also.

 

Brady is not.  7 rings, only 3 are legit.

 

[KNOWMOREDOUBLES]

7 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Brady is not.  7 rings, only 3 are legit.

 

Haters gonna hate.

[mshills]

12 hours ago, KNOWMOREDOUBLES said:

I would love to Mike Tyson at his peak vs Ali or even Holyfield. The young Tyson was a phenomenal fighter. Both offensively and defensively. He moved and fought with a plan. The post prison Tyson was just throwing hay makers with zero strategy. Not even close to the same fighter.

No disagreement here, I think any boxing fan would want that. Young Tyson’s footwork and body movement was the best since…..Ali.

[Righty to Lefty]

Let me put into perspective what Novak has accomplished.  First I don't think tennis is given its deserved respect for how difficult and grueling it is.  Next of all he played in an era with 2 other GOATS and has a winning record against each of them. Imagine if Tom Brady had 7 Super Bowls while winning 5 or 6 of them against two other QB's that managed to win 5 during the same era.  Novak is not given anywhere close to the respect that he deserves for his accomplishments within the same era as Fed and Nadal. I struggle to find a comp to what Djokovic has done in tennis especially the fact that it is an individual sport. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Righty to Lefty

[NRJyzr]

2 hours ago, KNOWMOREDOUBLES said:

Haters gonna hate.

 

Sorry, it's reality.  When your team rewires the QB helmet so the eye in the sky can talk to the QB during the play, it's not a legit win.

 

[Nard_S]

Jordan. Hated to lose like no other. 

[Nels55]

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Let me put into perspective what Novak has accomplished.  First I don't think tennis is given its deserved respect for how difficult and grueling it is.  Next of all he played in an era with 2 other GOATS and has a winning record against each of them. Imagine if Tom Brady had 7 Super Bowls while winning 5 or 6 of them against two other QB's that managed to win 5 during the same era.  Novak is not given anywhere close to the respect that he deserves for his accomplishments within the same era at Fed and Nadal. I struggle to find a comp to what Djokovic has done in tennis especially the fact that it is an individual sport. 

Nice case for Novak!  Of course the OP did list 'Best Leader' as a criteria which sort of eliminates tennis players.  

[84425]

I’d say it would be Novak or Tiger as those are the only two playing a game with a (close to) worldwide participation. Football is only played in the US, hockey in maybe 10 countries worldwide, basketball maybe a few more but in essence those are all niche sports. 

[anth]

Basketball is not a niche sport. A look at the recent FIBA World Cup will tell you that it’s played and played well all over the world. Much more than baseball and American football are.

 

Glad to see someone mention Bradman/cricket. In terms of performance his batting average is over 50% greater than the next best, and he played from 1928 - 1948. Just a freak.

 

What about Ali? 

[bladehunter]

Jordan Novak tiger Gretzky Brady in that order.  Brady is trailing far behind.  He doesn’t do much without a supporting cast .  The others did a lot of things on their own.  

[scruffynick]

Scott Mctominay 😁😁😁

 

But in all seriousness, Sir Alex tick all the boxes. Simply the greatest, full stop 

[dashanks]

If we're talking GOATs, I'll go with Christy Canyon.

[altess27]

These are tough questions to answer especially when comparing people across different generations. None of the individual sport athletes can be considered for greatest leader. 

 

Considering the categories I would say Sidney Crosby. 

 

His rookie year the NHL was in turmoil, his team was on the brink of relocating and he became the youngest ever to record a 100 point season. Year 2 he was the youngest player to ever win the Art Ross Trophy and the only teenager to ever win a scoring title amongst all major North American sports. Year 3 he earned the captaincy and had his team in the Stanley Cup Finals. Year 4 Pittsburgh won the Stanley Cup. He hasn't slowed much, last year at age 35 he still had over a point per game, he's changed his style of play three different times to best suit his team and by the time he's done he's going to be close to breaking Steve Yzerman's longest captain record. I like to wonder what his point total would be if he didn't have to deal with concussions or if he played in Gretzky's era. 

[TiScape]

On 10/5/2023 at 5:34 AM, NRJyzr said:

 

Sorry, it's reality.  When your team rewires the QB helmet so the eye in the sky can talk to the QB during the play, it's not a legit win.

 

Wait what? Is this some conspiracy theory I haven’t heard about??? 

When I think ‘Rings that don’t count’, first ones that come to mind are obviously Astros in ‘17 and Dodgers in the shortened season (and I’m a Dodgers fan). 

[NRJyzr]

1 hour ago, TiScape said:

Wait what? Is this some conspiracy theory I haven’t heard about??? 

When I think ‘Rings that don’t count’, first ones that come to mind are obviously Astros in ‘17 and Dodgers in the shortened season (and I’m a Dodgers fan). 

 

It was mentioned in the reports on the Spyware, but most glossed over it, or ignored it entirely.  I believe you can still find it in a web search (I did so a few years ago when a friend didn't believe it).

 

Personally, I think it comes from higher up the chain.  Not unlike the disposition of the evidence from spygate.

 

[NRJyzr]

1 hour ago, TiScape said:

When I think ‘Rings that don’t count’, first ones that come to mind are obviously Astros in ‘17

 

Used to like the Stros, but now, not so much.

 

When I hear ring counts being used, I always think of Robert Horry.  Then I think about how folks ignore two obvious Celtics.  LOL

 

[Dan Drake]

So, how about this:

 

Team sport - Gretzky

"Somewhat" team sport - Bradman

Individual sport - Novak

Just flat-out, pure athlete - Jim Thorpe

[NRJyzr]

5 minutes ago, Dan Drake said:

So, how about this:

 

Team sport - Gretzky

"Somewhat" team sport - Bradman

Individual sport - Novak

Just flat-out, pure athlete - Jim Thorpe

 

For the latter, Bo Jackson?  Maybe Jim Brown?  <shrug>

 

[deadsolid...shank]

2 hours ago, TiScape said:

Wait what? Is this some conspiracy theory I haven’t heard about??? 

When I think ‘Rings that don’t count’, first ones that come to mind are obviously Astros in ‘17 and Dodgers in the shortened season (and I’m a Dodgers fan). 

I have a different take on the shortened season. Yes, there is less chance for players to get hurt. 
 

But….. a shortened season gives less talented teams a chance to compete. Law of averages and all that. Over the course of a full season, the best usually rise to the top. But what was that season, 60 games? How many times do we see a crappy team at or near the top prior to the All Star break. If the season ends there, they’re in. 

I think a shortened season puts more emphasis and pressure on every game. 

[Dan Drake]

37 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

For the latter, Bo Jackson?  Maybe Jim Brown?  <shrug>

 

 

I was going to add some honorable mentions, lol! (these are in NO order whatsoever):

 

Team - Jordan, Brady (I know how you feel about this one!), Jim Brown?, Wilt, Messi, Orr

"Somewhat" Team - Ohtani (if he keeps going like he has), Ruth, Bond 

Individual - Ali, Phelps, Jack, Tiger, Nadal, Tyson, Kaerelin (sp?), Bolt

Pure Athlete - Bo, Deion, Didrickson-Zaharias, Herschel Walker, Jim Brown?, Dave Winfield? (last person to be drafted in all 3 major pro sports), Lebron - never seen a dude that size move like he can. 

 

Honestly, the honorable mentions could be so vast.  

 

Should we break it up by athlete & sportsman?  Sheesh, this is tough!