Why is late wrist set a power leak?

[getitdaily]

Is this a universal thing or a matchup thing?

 

I'm close to 2 mph faster clubhead speed when I set early vs late.

[Rosco1216]

14 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Is this a universal thing or a matchup thing?

 

I'm close to 2 mph faster clubhead speed when I set early vs late.

I don’t think it’s necessarily a power leak by itself. More so I think it’s that a late wrist set often promotes a pulling of the handle and a steeper and narrow transition.

[bladehunter]

I think you’re both correct.    I see 3-4 mph with driver with a overlap grip vs the interlock that I’ve played a long time.  And what I’ve found is that with overlap  I’m forced to set early and I don’t yank it down from  the top.  With interlock I’m very late , and i absolutely tend to pull down hard and get narrow into the ball. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by bladehunter

[Valtiel]

4 hours ago, getitdaily said:

Is this a universal thing or a matchup thing?

A matchup thing as it relates to sequence I think, yeah. If the late set puts both the club and your hands in a "good" position fundamentally then it can be a trigger that works with your transition move. More often though the late set causes issues there, either breaking down of the wrist angles into something problematic (loss of trail wrist extension, lead wrist cupping) or club path issues (clubhead moving across the line late in the backswing). There is also what came before it in the swing to consider as well since late wrist set is often something that gets "forced" when the wrists weren't moving properly in the takeaway and backswing. All of those would be considered power leaks/problems. 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

9 hours ago, Valtiel said:

A matchup thing as it relates to sequence I think, yeah. If the late set puts both the club and your hands in a "good" position fundamentally then it can be a trigger that works with your transition move. More often though the late set causes issues there, either breaking down of the wrist angles into something problematic (loss of trail wrist extension, lead wrist cupping) or club path issues (clubhead moving across the line late in the backswing). There is also what came before it in the swing to consider as well since late wrist set is often something that gets "forced" when the wrists weren't moving properly in the takeaway and backswing. All of those would be considered power leaks/problems. 

 

Well said….and another big issue….late wrist set often leads to arm over run….and good luck sequencing with that.  Tom Kim can do it, most can’t.

[getitdaily]

10 hours ago, Valtiel said:

A matchup thing as it relates to sequence I think, yeah. If the late set puts both the club and your hands in a "good" position fundamentally then it can be a trigger that works with your transition move. More often though the late set causes issues there, either breaking down of the wrist angles into something problematic (loss of trail wrist extension, lead wrist cupping) or club path issues (clubhead moving across the line late in the backswing). There is also what came before it in the swing to consider as well since late wrist set is often something that gets "forced" when the wrists weren't moving properly in the takeaway and backswing. All of those would be considered power leaks/problems. 

 

This is probably where hack motion and pressure plates would tell an interesting story. 

 

When I set late, I feel I have to work harder to get lead side early enough. When I set early I feel like I shift early almost automatically.  I am very up/down/around and not very lateral so this seems to explain it. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

[getitdaily]

39 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Nicklaus wasn't a late setter. Tiger definitely was...not sure if he still is, haven't paid attention to his swing in a while.

[absoludicrous]

I was looking at old discussions and didn’t really see anyone clarify or specify.

What is considered late? Is not fully set by P3 considered late? Or is fully set at P3 considered early?

I can see the float loaders as considered late setters. Can anyone clarify or is this one of those “depends on the person” type of responses?

[tthomasgolfer605]

34 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Nicklaus wasn't a late setter. Tiger definitely was...not sure if he still is, haven't paid attention to his swing in a while.

The were both 'natural' setters of the wrists rather than trying to hinge early. Big arcs were important to them. 

[b.mattay]

I have historically have swung better (and faster) with a late-ish set.

When I set early, my wrists "feel" locked and I shallow the club by going into right tilt too early. 

However, my current move of going into left wrist radial and flexion at the same time is hard on the wrist. I tore a wrist ligament doing this and may look to change it. 

[RichieHunt]

From my experience the late wrist set caused me to over-fold the trail arm.  The club feels heavier when you set the wrists really late and then your brain tells you to keep folding the trail arm until you feel like you have enough leverage.  The over-folding of the trail arm be just a total nightmare.

For me, the late wrist set would cause the trail shoulder to internally rotate.  And it's tough to get the lead wrist into extension in the process.  Or if I did get the lead wrist into extension it was with my lead arm so far out that the path was going dead left and you're not going to maximize your club speed or smash factor if that path is going too far left (or too far right).  

Basically I wasn't able to get my wrists into ulnar deviation with trail wrist supinating early in the downswing.  The radius would get smaller in the downswing and you make adjustments that take away your ability to use ground force and you can't get the hand path working as much upward into impact.

While I think Tiger was a 'late setter' I don't think he was quite as bad as that sequence makes him out to be.  2D video and photos can really skew things.  That's the problem I had, even working with teachers that knew about all of the things that 3D mocap has shown us.  Particularly at that p2-p3 stage where some golfers like myself get the shaft plane a little flatter at that point and skews  the visual and makes it look like golfer is getting more wrist set than they actually are.  Or vice versa with a player whose clubshaft is more upright and it makes them look like they are getting less wrist set than they actually are.

 

It wasn't until I started to examine it more on SportsBox AI...particularly from different angles, that I saw how little wrist set I had.  

 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, RichieHunt said:

From my experience the late wrist set caused me to over-fold the trail arm.  The club feels heavier when you set the wrists really late and then your brain tells you to keep folding the trail arm until you feel like you have enough leverage.  The over-folding of the trail arm be just a total nightmare.

For me, the late wrist set would cause the trail shoulder to internally rotate.  And it's tough to get the lead wrist into extension in the process.  Or if I did get the lead wrist into extension it was with my lead arm so far out that the path was going dead left and you're not going to maximize your club speed or smash factor if that path is going too far left (or too far right).  

Basically I wasn't able to get my wrists into ulnar deviation with trail wrist supinating early in the downswing.  The radius would get smaller in the downswing and you make adjustments that take away your ability to use ground force and you can't get the hand path working as much upward into impact.

While I think Tiger was a 'late setter' I don't think he was quite as bad as that sequence makes him out to be.  2D video and photos can really skew things.  That's the problem I had, even working with teachers that knew about all of the things that 3D mocap has shown us.  Particularly at that p2-p3 stage where some golfers like myself get the shaft plane a little flatter at that point and skews  the visual and makes it look like golfer is getting more wrist set than they actually are.  Or vice versa with a player whose clubshaft is more upright and it makes them look like they are getting less wrist set than they actually are.

 

It wasn't until I started to examine it more on SportsBox AI...particularly from different angles, that I saw how little wrist set I had.  

 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

All good stuff.

 

Especially the over bending of trail elbow.

 

The misperception of purposely setting the wrists late in order to float load and force artificial lag into the swing…..so you can have a one piece takeaway…..so you can take the hands out of the swing….as my friends in the UK say…all rubbish.

 

The force of a properly sequenced takeaway where the club moves first and the hips move last, will set the wrists correctly if you didn’t spend years purposely doing it the wrong way.

 

It’s a power leak for the simple reason that it throws the sequence off before you even get to p2…and the average golfer who doesn’t practice 40 or more hours a week, has no chance to regain it.

 

There are actually people out there who teach to have the lead arm and shaft in a straight line at p3. 
 

Guess what everyone…..an overly exaggerated early wrist set causes many of the same issues?  

 

 

[RichieHunt]

It's funny because the compliment that I get a lot on the range, probably at least once a month, is other golfers telling me how they like all of the lag I'm getting in the downswing.  Yet, I groan at that because I'm either not hitting it well or will soon not be hitting it well because my sequencing and wrist action is off and the last thing I want to do is get that float load type lag because it's death.

 

 

 

RH

[Shilgy]

On 10/27/2023 at 7:48 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

Well said….and another big issue….late wrist set often leads to arm over run….and good luck sequencing with that.  Tom Kim can do it, most can’t.

Guilty as charged.🤔

[hacker113]

There doesn't seem to be a clear cut answer on this, this is my problem and it's the first thing people notice when they see my swing. Guy from swingtweaks said setting wrists earlier/properly helps generate lag and use your body turn more on the downswing 

[KMeloney]

A good, 60-year-old player at my club has a really late wrist set and a "slap" move through the ball, and he hits it a long way. But, his stance is narrow and pretty upright, he mostly picks the club up behind him like Holmes, and is steep and narrow and very handsy down through the ball, and plays a fade -- and I think this is pretty much how his swing has looked since he was young. He's [still] a very good player.

 

All of his match-ups work great together. For me, if I set the club late with an otherwise-standard-looking swing (that's rotational with normal tilts and standard-looking hand depth at the top), then I'm always short (unless I, too, really concentrate on "cracking the whip" at the ball).

[Lefty_3Jack]

On 10/28/2023 at 2:34 PM, Shilgy said:

Guilty as charged.🤔

Stopping my arms when my turn is done has always left me about 1/4 way back and laid off.  The only way I could get "to the top" was by overrun.  Reading this makes me realize I do not set my wrists properly. 

[Zitlow]

On 10/27/2023 at 10:46 AM, tthomasgolfer605 said:

 

I would say getting the clubhead started first by cocking the hands off the ball is more of a power leak than setting them later because it ruins the rhythm and timing of the swing by throwing the player off balance. 

 

His left arm and the club are in one piece, his hands don't start to set until the next frame. 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Zitlow

[getitdaily]

9 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

I would say getting the clubhead started first by cocking the hands off the ball is more of a power leak than setting them later because it ruins the rhythm and timing of the swing by throwing the player off balance. 

 

His left arm and the club are in one piece, his hands don't start to set until the next frame. 

 

 

 

W R O N G

[Kuuuch]

I def hit it further when my wrists are set ~90* at left arm parallel in the backswing. 
 

Lots of good stuff in this thread, I’ll add one thing since I’ve always battled setting my wrists. A late wrist set also caused me to have too much shaft lean at impact. When I set earlier (I prefer the term gradual wrist set) and/or have 90* at left arm parallel, I’ll end up releasing more of that angle earlier before impact which has been a good thing for me. 

[Zitlow]

Freddy is in balance because his hands, arms, body and club are synchronized. The club doesn't start to set until  his hands are almost waist high. 

 

 

 

[KMeloney]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Freddy is in balance because his hands, arms, body and club are synchronized. The club doesn't start to set until  his hands are almost waist high. 

 

 

 

That's fine. Now do Dustin Johnson.

[MPStrat]

I think you just have to be careful with this move. It’s very easily overdone and can rob the swing of its dynamics and cause its own host of issues. Every swing is unique and I’m not going to say that some don’t need to set the club differently. I think the bigger issue for amateurs can be keeping the trail arm too wide for too long. Bending the trail elbow is also a large contributor to the 2D lead arm to golf club angle observed at p3. Zach Allen had a good video on this not long ago I will link it below for those who haven’t seen it. He highlights using hack motion how little radial deviation is actually needed.

 

 

 

[FirstFlight]

Does arm length factor in to this? I ask because Nicklaus always seemed to have shorter arms/longer trunk like some of us.

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Freddy is in balance because his hands, arms, body and club are synchronized. The club doesn't start to set until  his hands are almost waist high. 

 

 

 

True…but it appears his wrists begin to set much earlier than that.

[Zitlow]

37 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

True…but it appears his wrists begin to set much earlier than that.

 

Yep, he's a little later than most. I'm just saying that it's detrimental to balance and timing to manipulate the club by starting the clubhead first. 

  

One piece takeaway.

 

 

 

 

 

[BombinJim]

On 10/26/2023 at 11:06 PM, Valtiel said:

or club path issues (clubhead moving across the line late in the backswing)

Could you please elaborate on this? I suffer from this late wrist set and battle a crazy in-to-out path. Does the across the line at the top cause the path issue or does it make you steep which causes some compensatory shallowing move (EE), pushing the path out to the right? Thanks

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, BombinJim said:

Could you please elaborate on this? I suffer from this late wrist set and battle a crazy in-to-out path. Does the across the line at the top cause the path issue or does it make you steep which causes some compensatory shallowing move (EE), pushing the path out to the right? Thanks

Sure, i'll explain how I think this happens first and then tie that in to your swing from back in July that we spoke about. This will contain a few moving parts so bear with me. 

The general idea is that the wrists need to set at *some* point in the swing, and the issue comes when it's either done incorrectly or involuntarily, almost always mixed with a hand/arm path issue (more on that below). "Incorrectly" is normally via excessive or exclusive extension/flexion, often early in the backswing, and this is the move that gets the club sucked back inside and behind the hands. An involuntary setting of the wrists can then happen under the weight of the club at the top of the backswing, because with excessive extension/flexion (lateral folding of the wrists) often comes a complete lack of upward hinging (radial deviation, something that gets somewhat forced at the top of the backswing. When this happens, particularly when there are club path issues, that forced wrist setting sends the club in a bad direction and you see the common pattern of excessive cupping of the lead wrist and loss of extension in the trail wrist, two moves that send the club across the line. Unfortunately at that point the very thing you need to get the club BACK on plane correctly is a rewind/reassembly of what broke down with the wrists in the first place, which is functionally impossible given the small amount of time available in transition to do so. I'm sure someone out there does something similar, but i've never seen it personally. 

Now in your case it's a bit different because based on your swing from August/September you had a couple improper compensations and your follow up (which I missed) contained a good first attempt at the wrist preset drills designed to help alleviate this, but I can see where you're still struggling and i'll follow up on that thread shortly. 👍

[MonteScheinblum]

6 hours ago, Shilgy said:

True…but it appears his wrists begin to set much earlier than that.

The definition of irony. I saw a presentation a few years before Covid where Fred Couples 3D graph was used as an example of both the club head moving first and how to speed the arms up to sequence properly when the arms over run the rotation of the thorax.  So using him as an example of late wrist set and synchronizing his segments in the backswing is a poor chocie.

People’s opinions are so jaded by mis interpreting 2D video and stills.  It’s led to bad ideas for 70 years.  Purposeful late wrist setting in order to get downswing lag has ruined golfers sequencing for that long.  The “one piece takeaway” leads to most golfers suckling their arms inside, where moving the club head first leads to the hands and club syncing to the body and everything arriving at the top at the same time.  The club has farther to travel, common sense dictates it needs to move first even if you haven’t seen 3D.  People like to think in terms of extremes and false dichotomies.  Moving the club head first doesn’t mean you snatch it into a 90* set with the left arm by p2.

 

There’s a reason hackmotion has had me do 2 presentation for all of their users about the intent of earlier wrist set (radial) in the backswing and earlier casting feel (ulanr) on downswing.  Because that’s what golfers actually do in 3D, even though it spoils some people’s age old narratives.  Brian Manzella agrees as he’s done 10 times the number for them that I’ve done.

The reason is because I’m a nice guy, even thought I don’t know what I’m talking about, because giving out bad information helps them sell devices. 😁
 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by MonteScheinblum