What's the best way to flatten the shaft?

[slytown]

There are many ways to flatten the shaft: right arm internal rotation, downswing shoulder rotation, reroute momentum from a vertical shaft raise in the takeaway.

 

Share what works for you and why you like it for your swing.

[johnrobison]

What works for me is to get it on the correct plane at P4 and keep it there.

[getitdaily]

Do you mean shallow in the downswing?

 

I had success doing an exaggerated out to in reroute feel. Basically at p2, feel like the arms fall away from the ball as they work up. 

[gators78]

I have some trouble feeling it with the arms/hands and trying to do something at the top. 

 

For me it’s some combo of feeling very wide coming down, and then a range session of trying to hit massive push draws.

[Trippels]

1 hour ago, slytown said:

There are many ways to flatten the shaft: right arm internal rotation, downswing shoulder rotation, reroute momentum from a vertical shaft raise in the takeaway.

 

Share what works for you and why you like it for your swing.

 

[nitram]

Internal Rotation of the Lead Shoulder and Upper Arm, and Lead Forearm Pronation combined with External Rotation of Trail Shoulder and Upper arm with Forearm Supination at P5.5, and the shaft orientation that allows the butt end of the shaft to point outside the ball until you turn the corner at P6.

[Mookieb10]

A hydraulic press 

[Itsjustagame]

Sequence

[MonteScheinblum]

4 hours ago, slytown said:

There are many ways to flatten the shaft: right arm internal rotation, downswing shoulder rotation, reroute momentum from a vertical shaft raise in the takeaway.

 

Share what works for you and why you like it for your swing.

Shoulder rotation steepens it.  That’s why Nicklaus said keep your back to the target and Rose said feel like you stay closed until p6.

[Pepperturbo]

My self-taught swing is what it is, regardless of club, until I flatten it out for a shot.  Can't say what I do to make it happen, other than think what's needed, and Voilà, my body does what it's told.  😛 Go figure... 

 

Last weekend on the Par 5 first tee, using driver, I fattened my swing out, and smacked the hell out of the ball, straight down the left side of the fairway about 250+ reaching the dogleg left.  

[RichieHunt]

I think it's more of what you're doing to not shallow the shaft than an individual thing that allows you to shallow out the shaft.  Things like an open face can be problematic for a golfer but for others (i.e. Moe Norman) a closed face wasn't needed.  

Dr. Kwon recently explained the issue with getting laid off and how it can often cause a  player to not be able to shallow out, but then you have somebody like Jon Rahm who is very laid off at the top, but has a compatibility of a very short swing and he shallows out well.

 

I think for the average golfer i't usually a combination of open face issues along with the wrists and arm movements are causing them to not be able to shallow out and it starts in the backswing.  There may be some pivoting issues as well and I think those that get their weight too far up on their toes from p1-p4 are going to be more likely to get steep.

 

 

 

 

RH

[getitdaily]

On 11/8/2023 at 11:06 AM, nitram said:

Internal Rotation of the Lead Shoulder and Upper Arm, and Lead Forearm Pronation combined with External Rotation of Trail Shoulder and Upper arm with Forearm Supination at P5.5, and the shaft orientation that allows the butt end of the shaft to point outside the ball until you turn the corner at P6.

 

 

[Golf_Goof]

It seems, thinking about shallowing on the downswing, is sort of like thinking about getting on to the lead side to start the downswing. Too late at that point.
 

I can’t do it well unless I use the clubs momentum in the takeaway - like the steering wheel drill. 

[Zitlow]

Flattening the shaft is sooo yesterday... Insert (new swing thing). 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

On 11/8/2023 at 10:06 AM, nitram said:

Internal Rotation of the Lead Shoulder and Upper Arm, and Lead Forearm Pronation combined with External Rotation of Trail Shoulder and Upper arm with Forearm Supination at P5.5, and the shaft orientation that allows the butt end of the shaft to point outside the ball until you turn the corner at P6.

Query.  Didn't the AMG video cited directly above your post state that: no Pros in their study pool used external trail shoulder rotation in the downswing to left arm parallel?  They used it in the backswing, but not in the downswing.

 

Maybe I misunderstood their findings?

[596]

I use a large sledgehammer but it does tend to ruin the shaft.

[golferdude54]

On 11/8/2023 at 7:00 AM, johnrobison said:

What works for me is to get it on the correct plane at P4 and keep it there.

This. There’s a reason why Tiger in 2000 and Annika in 2002 led their respective tours in ball striking, they didn't steepen nor shallow their club in transition.

 

They both got it on the correct plane at P4 and that P4.1 transition it stays on the same plane. It reduces timing so much, especially under pressure, that’s how they were able to win so much in those years.

[ChrisSP]

I swing/play with the mindset that gravity will shallow the club if I'm patient in transition and allow it to happen. The shaft will want to lay down on its own because of the weight of the club head, but I have to let it happen. Open the shoulders too quickly, spin out with the hips, or pull the handle and there's basically no chance of getting it slotted.

[Kuuuch]

What works for me is taking a rehearsal where I swing to the top, keep body closed/back to target and let the arms come down/right arm straighten. Like below. I don’t think it’s the only way but it’s the best way I’ve tried and it’s the only way I’ve tried where the hands don’t work too much out in transition. Pair that with a good wrist motion and soft wrists and it works well. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Ck1ykwTjQq9/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[scotee]

https://www.performancegolf.com/shallow

 

This helped me feel the shallowing move.

[Valtiel]

12 hours ago, ChrisSP said:

I swing/play with the mindset that gravity will shallow the club if I'm patient in transition and allow it to happen. The shaft will want to lay down on its own because of the weight of the club head, but I have to let it happen. Open the shoulders too quickly, spin out with the hips, or pull the handle and there's basically no chance of getting it slotted.

This. For people with "steep" problems, shallowing is an elimination of steepening moves. Attempting to "add" shallowing moves on to a swing with flaws that cause steepening does far more to keep golf instructors in business that it does for your golf game. 

[MPStrat]

17 hours ago, ChrisSP said:

I swing/play with the mindset that gravity will shallow the club if I'm patient in transition and allow it to happen. The shaft will want to lay down on its own because of the weight of the club head, but I have to let it happen. Open the shoulders too quickly, spin out with the hips, or pull the handle and there's basically no chance of getting it slotted.

Ya I agree with this. Some might come out with torches for your use of the word “gravity” but that’s just a feel and a good one for many through history. The reason why it’s good is because it allows the hands and arms to respond to the forces of the change of direction or what Brian Manzella calls “blow back”. He says that using Jacobs 3D, they have measured that pros aren’t doing anything to flatten the shaft in the change of direction or downswing with their hands and arms.
 

One of the reasons the gravity feel works for some who steepen is because like you said, if you intentionally lower the arms aggressively, there is a risk the shaft will work more vertically which is obviously the opposite of flattening. I don’t have a problem with any particular feel including staying closed and lowering the arms, as long as someone doesn’t actually do it to the point that the shaft is vertical or the hands are too deep. That’s why I think AMG’s stuff on lowering the hands independently as fast as possible thinking this is how to maximize hand speed can be terrible. There is no getting around the basic physics that the center of mass of the club will always want to line up with the net force. 

[getitdaily]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

Ya I agree with this. Some might come out with torches for your use of the word “gravity” but that’s just a feel and a good one for many through history. The reason why it’s good is because it allows the hands and arms to respond to the forces of the change of direction or what Brian Manzella calls “blow back”. He says that using Jacobs 3D, they have measured that pros aren’t doing anything to flatten the shaft in the change of direction or downswing with their hands and arms.
 

One of the reasons the gravity feel works for some who steepen is because like you said, if you intentionally lower the arms aggressively, there is a risk the shaft will work more vertically which is obviously the opposite of flattening. I don’t have a problem with any particular feel including staying closed and lowering the arms, as long as someone doesn’t actually do it to the point that the shaft is vertical or the hands are too deep. That’s why I think AMG’s stuff on lowering the hands independently as fast as possible thinking this is how to maximize hand speed can be terrible. There is no getting around the basic physics that the center of mass of the club will always want to line up with the net force. 

Gravity...and momentum.

 

My hands have moved toward the ball in transition forever. I hit that move hard the last 6 months. Basic thought was don't let the arms move toward the ball...and I exaggerated the opposite. Basically made a move to have my hands and arms fall away from the ball from p2 to p4.5. That helped a ton. It feels.like a complete reroute but on camera the arms are coming more down than out.

 

A few other keys I find help

 

1. The faster and longer my swing gets, the worse I make a move toward the ball with the arms/hands

2. I feel like my hands and arms are SLOWING DOWN from hands at waist high until my backswing completes. That slowing down feel helps momentum and Gravity just take over.

[johnrobison]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

Some might come out with torches for your use of the word “gravity” but that’s just a feel and a good one for many through history.

Yep. Count me as one who wanted to say that gravity isn't doing what he thinks it's doing. But, I agree that the point isn't whether it has that effect. It's whether feeling as though it does produces the desired result.

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

That’s why I think AMG’s stuff on lowering the hands independently as fast as possible thinking this is how to maximize hand speed can be terrible.

Sure, but the discussion of any one thing in isolation has the potential to be terrible. Leave the arms up can be terrible. Maintain trail wrist extension can be terrible. Etc... For me, lowering my arms as fast as possible (as long they're in sync with my pivot) produces the desired result. Not terrible.

[MPStrat]

44 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Gravity...and momentum.

 

2. I feel like my hands and arms are SLOWING DOWN from hands at waist high until my backswing completes. That slowing down feel helps momentum and Gravity just take over.

Good post. Some call this “coasting”. I like that terminology. That’s why it’s so important to have a dynamic move in the takeaway so that we can use that energy/momentum to coast to the top. Instead of mechanically laboring through the backswing from the start. 

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, johnrobison said:

Yep. Count me as one who wanted to say that gravity isn't doing what he thinks it's doing. But, I agree that the point isn't whether it has that effect. It's whether feeling as though it does produces the desired result.

Sure, but the discussion of any one thing in isolation has the potential to be terrible. Leave the arms up can be terrible. Maintain trail wrist extension can be terrible. Etc... For me, lowering my arms as fast as possible (as long they're in sync with my pivot) produces the desired result. Not terrible.

I agree John. Anything can be terrible if misapplied, misinterpreted. I also think “leaving the arms up” as a feel is very easy to misinterpret and there is clearly a widespread misinterpretation of what that is and what it means. That’s also where my opinion comes in that lowering the arms independently as fast as possible puts a player at risk of a vertical shaft. It’s very possible for the net force to be downward doing that. But I’m not opposed to any feel that works for someone. 

[johnrobison]

What do you mean by independently? 

[MPStrat]

13 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

What do you mean by independently? 

Independently doesn’t adequately describe my objection. The intention to create maximum early hand speed by lowering the arms independently of the trunk as fast or aggressively as possible is what I think could potentially create a vertical shaft among other things. I also think “early hand speed” is a prime example of different teachers agreeing on the data but interpreting it differently. 

[wagolfer7]

7 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Ya I agree with this. Some might come out with torches for your use of the word “gravity” but that’s just a feel and a good one for many through history. The reason why it’s good is because it allows the hands and arms to respond to the forces of the change of direction or what Brian Manzella calls “blow back”. He says that using Jacobs 3D, they have measured that pros aren’t doing anything to flatten the shaft in the change of direction or downswing with their hands and arms.
 

One of the reasons the gravity feel works for some who steepen is because like you said, if you intentionally lower the arms aggressively, there is a risk the shaft will work more vertically which is obviously the opposite of flattening. I don’t have a problem with any particular feel including staying closed and lowering the arms, as long as someone doesn’t actually do it to the point that the shaft is vertical or the hands are too deep. That’s why I think AMG’s stuff on lowering the hands independently as fast as possible thinking this is how to maximize hand speed can be terrible. There is no getting around the basic physics that the center of mass of the club will always want to line up with the net force. 

 

Lot of different sayings and drills for essentially the same thing.  Never heard "fall in" before, but that's how Padraig is describing.  Really good way for players to get a transition feel here though in this video.  

 

 

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

Lot of different sayings and drills for essentially the same thing.  Never heard "fall in" before, but that's how Padraig is describing.  Really good way for players to get a transition feel here though in this video.  

 

 

This is a much better way to describe the “Gordon Sargent move” that Golf Digest tried to do but didn’t explain very well