Scratch/Plus Handicap amateur male golfer vs. Nelly Korda (LGPA)

[tacklingdummy]

3 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I'm sure the RBs assessed various average differentials since it used to be averaging best 10 of 20 rather than best 8 of 20. You could also look at averaging the middle M of N differentials (kind of a median approach). Lots of ways to skin the cat depending on the ultimate purpose of the final number.

 

Yeah, lots of ways to interpret the data using different methods. I just think the larger the sample size, the more accurate the data. So, I'm not fond of the new use of only 8 scores. I think taking the average score of 18 out of 20 adjusted to the course difficulty and then dropping the highest and lowest outliers would be simple and more accurate. Over the years, I have played with/against many players with the same handicaps and the levels were not well matched, but the players with similar average scores on same course were much more well matched and results were more consistent. 

 

 

[driveandputtmachine]

3 hours ago, isaacbm said:

Sorry, to clarify…

Are you saying in 2023, the guy that won the Western amateur, the north east amateur, the north and south amateur then the US amateur, then played in the Walker cup, then won a PGA tour event at 29 under par is not as consistent as LPGA tour players?   

That person doesn't exist.  There is a guy named Nick Dunlap that finished 5TH in the western, and then won the NE, NS and US, and played in the Walker Cup and won on the PGA Tour.  That being said his actual record is amazing, and it is one hell of a summer.  I have yet to see an elite am as consistent as the top LPGA players.  Sure I didn't call out top LPGA and just said LPGA.

 

That being said Aberg(he did consistency for a more prolonged period of time than Dunlap) and now Dunlap both could cause me to relook at my thoughts there, but I don't have his or Aberg's rounds in front of me to really decide if the tip top AM's(which Aberg and Dunlap both I think most would agree are probably two of the best AM's in the last 10 years or so) are more consistent.  One good 6 month stretch is awesome, and it depends on how you define consistency.  Dunlap is VERY young, and to say he is consistent because he had an amazing summer, seems like a bit of wishful hoping.  Sure he played consistent enough to make the Walker Cup team, but the summer into winter he had I don't think that alone makes him consistent. He was a second team all american and his freshman year was ranked as the 16th best college player.

 

He has had an almost unprecedented summer into winter season, but again does that make him consistent?

 

 

 

 

[driveandputtmachine]

1 hour ago, isaacbm said:

Totally understand. I was mostly just having a go.
   To me, the word “elite” is thrown around a little too loosely.  The top 10 male amateurs in the world are the elite of the elite. They can literally walk out onto the PGA tour right now and keep their cards. So it’s fair to assume that if you can keep your card on the PGA tour, you are better than average on the LPGA tour. 
 

To be fair, there is a massive difference between the fourth player on the 30th ranked team in Div 1 college golf  than Nick Dunlap. 
 

    But, driveandputtmachine specifically used him as an example, so I called him out. 

The mini tours are full of Top 10 former male amateurs that DID NOT maintain their card or even get onto the PGA Tour.

I only know of two recent top 10 former am's that are keeping their card, Aberg and Dunlap(both from wins).  I don't feel like looking it up, and nothing I have said relies on this statement being true or false.   You made a blanket statement that the top 10 am's could walk out on the PGA Tour and keep their card and therefore are better than LPGA players, with no facts backing it up.  Show me this, and if it is true, then I will apologize.  

 

I agree that the top 10 or so ams are elite. 

[jimecherry]

16 minutes ago, driveandputtmachine said:

The mini tours are full of Top 10 former male amateurs that DID NOT maintain their card or even get onto the PGA Tour.

I only know of two recent top 10 former am's that are keeping their card, Aberg and Dunlap(both from wins).  I don't feel like looking it up, and nothing I have said relies on this statement being true or false.   You made a blanket statement that the top 10 am's could walk out on the PGA Tour and keep their card and therefore are better than LPGA players, with no facts backing it up.  Show me this, and if it is true, then I will apologize.  

 

I agree that the top 10 or so ams are elite. 

what constitutes keeping a tour card do players on medicals count what about guys who have conditional status only? and which lpga players are we saying these amatuers are better than the 100 that didnt have to worry about going through the 2023 qualifying series, or the top 50 that can get into any tournament they want?

maybe you both need to clarify where the goalposts actually are in this logical argument ;}

[Shilgy]

20 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Well, not exactly. The handicap system's purpose is to more or less equalize outcome of match play across all handicaps indices. For example, a 12 can play a 5 in match play and have roughly a 50-50 chance of winning. However, secondarily, the handicap system does provide a reasonable measure of ability.

 

The 0.96 factor was removed under WHS when the number of counting scores dropped from 10 to 8. Some folks indicated that those factors cancelled, but I thought that was a stretch. I also think the ruling bodies removed the "potential" wording from the handicap index description. 

Demonstrated playing ability.

 

Some like @PlusGolferUk seem to think it’s better to have all rounds count.  All of the sandbaggers agree with that.

[PlusGolferUk]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Demonstrated playing ability.

 

Some like @PlusGolferUk seem to think it’s better to have all rounds count.  All of the sandbaggers agree with that.

Thats the thing with golf. Every shot counts and you can’t hide. Except with WHS 🥴

[aenemated]

LOL Handicaps. Yall are funny. 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, PlusGolferUk said:

Thats the thing with golf. Every shot counts and you can’t hide. Except with WHS 🥴

Except as a low handicap player you do realize this would most definitely result in you giving more strokes in competition?

 

Anyone can look up scoring average if you’d rather just use that.

[Obee]

51 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Except as a low handicap player you do realize this would most definitely result in you giving more strokes in competition?

 

Anyone can look up scoring average if you’d rather just use that.

which, of course, doesn't tell the whole story, because somebody who plays a majority of their rounds, and a course of par 70, rated 69.7 who is the Scratch golfer is going to have a much lower scoring average than somebody who plays the majority of their rounds on course rated 75.9. 

[Shilgy]

Just now, Obee said:

which, of course, doesn't tell the whole story, because somebody who plays a majority of their rounds, and a course of par 70, rated 69.7 who is the Scratch golfer is going to have a much lower scoring average than somebody who plays the majority of their rounds on course rated 75.9. 

And you could certainly do it as average differential as well.  The higher the handicap the more they would add to their handicap compared to the current system.

[Obee]

9 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

And you could certainly do it as average differential as well.  The higher the handicap the more they would add to their handicap compared to the current system.

average differential is far better than average score. Especially with the new ability for a course to adjust how hard it is playing, using PCC

[PlatinumNike]

On 1/20/2024 at 3:00 PM, Pnwpingi210 said:

Is Grant still a scratch golfer?  Or was he scratch golfer before he became a content creator.

 

I think the big difference is a lot of the scratch golfers play a lot of golf, likely on the same course.   They get to know the course really well, where to leave there misses, how every inch of the green roles at every hour of the day (as they should).   If dropped on a random course, they likely won’t shoot as close to their index, especially the first round.

   A tour professional, man or women, plays closer to their hc or index on just about any course they play.  

this is not meant to be insulting cause in any case scratch or plus 2 is elite.  But a plus 6 golfer that plays a lot of tournaments on different course is playing a different game compared to the club scratch golfer.

I’d say he’s still scratch. But let’s say we gave Grant 3 months to actually practice and not have to play YouTube golf. I think it’d be a lot more even. He’s going to try and qualify for an actually PGA tourney soon. 
 

And to be honest it looked like he was kind of half assing his way around that Taylormade course. No one wants to make the professional Taylormade guest look bad when it’s technically not a real competition. 
 

PS I like nelly 

[Pnwpingi210]

40 minutes ago, PlatinumNike said:

I’d say he’s still scratch. But let’s say we gave Grant 3 months to actually practice and not have to play YouTube golf. I think it’d be a lot more even. He’s going to try and qualify for an actually PGA tourney soon. 
 

And to be honest it looked like he was kind of half assing his way around that Taylormade course. No one wants to make the professional Taylormade guest look bad when it’s technically not a real competition. 
 

PS I like nelly 

Agree.  It was a friendly competition for both and likely one of about 20 other things they were doing that day.  

Edited February 2 by Pnwpingi210

[PlusGolferUk]

I like lamp

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, Obee said:

average differential is far better than average score. Especially with the new ability for a course to adjust how hard it is playing, using PCC

Of course…and that’s what I was saying when I earlier said average score. And my point still stands. Going to average score across all scores would be much worse for low handicaps.  But wonderful for the high guys and sandbaggers.

[isaacbm]

11 hours ago, driveandputtmachine said:

The mini tours are full of Top 10 former male amateurs that DID NOT maintain their card or even get onto the PGA Tour.

I only know of two recent top 10 former am's that are keeping their card, Aberg and Dunlap(both from wins).  I don't feel like looking it up, and nothing I have said relies on this statement being true or false.   You made a blanket statement that the top 10 am's could walk out on the PGA Tour and keep their card and therefore are better than LPGA players, with no facts backing it up.  Show me this, and if it is true, then I will apologize.  

 

I agree that the top 10 or so ams are elite. 

All I’m saying is the guy had 5 wins, 2  2nds, a 4th and a 5th against  some of the top collegiate fields in the country. Then he won a PGA Tour event.  If that’s not consistent, I don’t know what is. 

I’ll retract my statement that the top 10 can walk out on tour and keep their card. But for the sake of this discussion, let’s just stick to Nick Dunlap. Can you possibly recognize that using him as the example of college players not being consistent Is maybe not the best example? 

Edited February 2 by isaacbm

[driveandputtmachine]

4 hours ago, isaacbm said:

All I’m saying is the guy had 5 wins, 2  2nds, a 4th and a 5th against  some of the top collegiate fields in the country. Then he won a PGA Tour event.  If that’s not consistent, I don’t know what is. 

I’ll retract my statement that the top 10 can walk out on tour and keep their card. But for the sake of this discussion, let’s just stick to Nick Dunlap. Can you possibly recognize that using him as the example of college players not being consistent Is maybe not the best example? 

He has been consistent for the last 6 or however many events since his "streak" started, absolutely.  Going on a streak like that just doesn't happen very often even for ELITE AM's.  Just last year he was 16th best NCAA player.  So while this is a new "hot streak" he hasn't been on it for a long time, he hasn't been that consistent for 12+ months.  Granted this streak is not sustainable, or at least other than Tiger we haven't seen a streak like this sustained for over a year, so I am assuming he won't stay that consistently good.  However it will be difficult to determine if he does since he is now playing against pros and will be in the elevated events.

 

Your point is valid, using him was not the best example, his past 6 or so months have been excellent and amazingly consistent. 

[PedronNiall]

2 hours ago, driveandputtmachine said:

He has been consistent for the last 6 or however many events since his "streak" started, absolutely.  Going on a streak like that just doesn't happen very often even for ELITE AM's.  Just last year he was 16th best NCAA player.  So while this is a new "hot streak" he hasn't been on it for a long time, he hasn't been that consistent for 12+ months.  Granted this streak is not sustainable, or at least other than Tiger we haven't seen a streak like this sustained for over a year, so I am assuming he won't stay that consistently good.  However it will be difficult to determine if he does since he is now playing against pros and will be in the elevated events.

 

Your point is valid, using him was not the best example, his past 6 or so months have been excellent and amazingly consistent. 

Last year he was a freshman. You know, one of those people experiencing their first year in college, so adjusting to that along with playing competitive golf against more seasoned collegiate players. 

 

16th best your freshman year is indicative of a wee bit of consistency even then, opinion-wise & results-wise I'd say, but perhaps I'm missing something. 

[Chunkitgood]

This raises two issues: the value of distance, and the gap between men and women.

 

A lot of the exaggerated posts about men competing with women pros are in response to ubiquitous attempts to minimize the vast gap between men and women at all levels which in turn are apparently designed to encourage women to play, which probably nobody who doesn’t make a living from golf really wants to happen.

 

The distance thing is more interesting.  If distance is so important in scoring and winning, why exactly can a women pro beat a 4 capper (or even the guys here who drive 300 yards but can’t break 90) who outdrives her?  It calls into question the nature of the entire strokes gained and statistical analysis trend, as well as the value of the “distance” the golf industry is always trying to sell.

[North Texas]

14 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

This raises two issues: the value of distance, and the gap between men and women.

 

A lot of the exaggerated posts about men competing with women pros are in response to ubiquitous attempts to minimize the vast gap between men and women at all levels which in turn are apparently designed to encourage women to play, which probably nobody who doesn’t make a living from golf really wants to happen.

 

The distance thing is more interesting.  If distance is so important in scoring and winning, why exactly can a women pro beat a 4 capper (or even the guys here who drive 300 yards but can’t break 90) who outdrives her?  It calls into question the nature of the entire strokes gained and statistical analysis trend, as well as the value of the “distance” the golf industry is always trying to sell.

 

It's probably just me, but I don't have a clue what you are trying to say.

Edited February 3 by North Texas

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, North Texas said:

 

It's probably just me, but I don't have a clue what you are trying to say.

It isn't just you. Ole Chunky is a nonsense spouting troll. Seems to specialize in drive bys.

[GoGoErky]

1 minute ago, ThinkingPlus said:

It isn't just you. Ole Chunky is a nonsense spouting troll. Seems to specialize in drive bys.

Beat me too it and I agree, almost every post is that way regardless of topic.

[Chunkitgood]

I could explain it to you guys, but of course cannot understand it for you.

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

I could explain it to you guys, but of course cannot understand it for you.

So even you just said you can’t understand it.🤣

[Chunkitgood]

Einstein supposedly said if you can’t explain something to a 6 year old, you don’t understand it yourself.

 

He must never have read his own writing, by which he stands condemned by his own words.  Or maybe it was a bad translation.  Nothing, actually, to do with this thread.

 

Anyway, I have a hard time seeing how anyone could literally fail to understand what I wrote.  I kept it simple, avoided using words 6 years olds might not be familiar with like “subtext,” but still some people seem to be so lacking in elementary reading and comprehension skills (or honesty) as to profess (at least) not to understand what I wrote.  

I do tend to express my opinion and go on to something else, since there is little point in arguing with people who by their own admission cannot understand simple declarative sentences.  And my opinions do diverge from those I see coming from most golfers, so to the superficial observer, particularly one without the capacity or qualifications to judge my opinions for himself, my behavior may seem troll like.

 

I do not, however, accept the rhetorical cup (of hemlock, to make it obvious), and will continue to express myself, showing as much restraint as I can muster.

[Obee]

On 2/2/2024 at 10:03 PM, Chunkitgood said:

This raises two issues: the value of distance, and the gap between men and women.

 

A lot of the exaggerated posts about men competing with women pros are in response to ubiquitous attempts to minimize the vast gap between men and women at all levels which in turn are apparently designed to encourage women to play, which probably nobody who doesn’t make a living from golf really wants to happen.

 

The distance thing is more interesting.  If distance is so important in scoring and winning, why exactly can a women pro beat a 4 capper (or even the guys here who drive 300 yards but can’t break 90) who outdrives her?  It calls into question the nature of the entire strokes gained and statistical analysis trend, as well as the value of the “distance” the golf industry is always trying to sell.

So ... Nobody outside the golf industry want to encourage women to play golf? How about the women who already play? How about the millions of men who support them? Are you saying we don't exist.

 

As for distance and strokes gained, that's the proverbial gun fight that you arrived at with a knife—and it's a rubber one to boot. 

[PedronNiall]

10 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

Einstein supposedly said if you can’t explain something to a 6 year old, you don’t understand it yourself.

 

He must never have read his own writing, by which he stands condemned by his own words.  Or maybe it was a bad translation.  Nothing, actually, to do with this thread.

 

Anyway, I have a hard time seeing how anyone could literally fail to understand what I wrote.  I kept it simple, avoided using words 6 years olds might not be familiar with like “subtext,” but still some people seem to be so lacking in elementary reading and comprehension skills (or honesty) as to profess (at least) not to understand what I wrote.  

I do tend to express my opinion and go on to something else, since there is little point in arguing with people who by their own admission cannot understand simple declarative sentences.  And my opinions do diverge from those I see coming from most golfers, so to the superficial observer, particularly one without the capacity or qualifications to judge my opinions for himself, my behavior may seem troll like.

 

I do not, however, accept the rhetorical cup (of hemlock, to make it obvious), and will continue to express myself, showing as much restraint as I can muster.

Guy literally thinks he's Socrates, hah.

 

[Oliver Klozoff]

Gosh, I just saw this thread.  Some of you are nuts.  A scratch male is going to be about a +6 handicap if they were female.  That's the course rating difference for most courses based solely on gender.  Not about which tee is played.  Solely on gender.  Your course should have a women's and mens handicap from say the middle tees.   I'm a +1 and played mini tours way back when.  And my current game is essentially the same as them.   I hit it 20 yards farther even at an advanced age,  far less straight, and our short games are comparable.  I played with a US Womens Am champion and she tried to play the tips w us (6800 and wet that day).  She didn't break 80.   Do you know how perfect the course conditions are for them?  How far the ball rolls?  How many wedges a male will hit into the greens?  How every par 5 is reachable.   How every putt under 10 feet rolls perfetly compared to our home courses?   It's basically a par 66.   A good club head speed on the LPGA is like 100 mph.  A scratch male is gonna be a minimum of 110.  A top younger male is gonna be 120+.   There's a reason they hide carry distance and club head speed for the women (and champions tour for that matter).  They don't want you to know how firm these courses are playing.

 

None of this takes away from how good they are.  None.  Given their physiques and lower muscle mass, they are simply awesome.  I love watching Nelly play.  And love how straight they hit it.  And how with their shorter height they get so much better of an angle of attack.  But if you think a top male amateur wouldn't destroy their courses, that's nuts.  College kids are shooting sub 65 rounds from 7300 yards.   They can roll out all these videos they want, but I'll take every single starter at a top 20 mens college program over an LPGA player.  

 

 

[J_Tizzle]

On 2/1/2024 at 6:40 PM, PlatinumNike said:

I’d say he’s still scratch. But let’s say we gave Grant 3 months to actually practice and not have to play YouTube golf. I think it’d be a lot more even. He’s going to try and qualify for an actually PGA tourney soon. 
 

And to be honest it looked like he was kind of half assing his way around that Taylormade course. No one wants to make the professional Taylormade guest look bad when it’s technically not a real competition. 
 

PS I like nelly 

 

This is always a good question.

 

Are you a traveling scratch, or a home course scratch.  Usually there can be a notable difference.  My old home course had lots of "that course scratches" but every time they ever played away from their home course they were much less impressive.  Still shoot some decent scores, but not near what they shoot at the home course.

[PedronNiall]

3 hours ago, Oliver Klozoff said:

Gosh, I just saw this thread.  Some of you are nuts.  A scratch male is going to be about a +6 handicap if they were female.  That's the course rating difference for most courses based solely on gender.  Not about which tee is played.  Solely on gender.  Your course should have a women's and mens handicap from say the middle tees.   I'm a +1 and played mini tours way back when.  And my current game is essentially the same as them.   I hit it 20 yards farther even at an advanced age,  far less straight, and our short games are comparable.  I played with a US Womens Am champion and she tried to play the tips w us (6800 and wet that day).  She didn't break 80.   Do you know how perfect the course conditions are for them?  How far the ball rolls?  How many wedges a male will hit into the greens?  How every par 5 is reachable.   How every putt under 10 feet rolls perfetly compared to our home courses?   It's basically a par 66.   A good club head speed on the LPGA is like 100 mph.  A scratch male is gonna be a minimum of 110.  A top younger male is gonna be 120+.   There's a reason they hide carry distance and club head speed for the women (and champions tour for that matter).  They don't want you to know how firm these courses are playing.

 

None of this takes away from how good they are.  None.  Given their physiques and lower muscle mass, they are simply awesome.  I love watching Nelly play.  And love how straight they hit it.  And how with their shorter height they get so much better of an angle of attack.  But if you think a top male amateur wouldn't destroy their courses, that's nuts.  College kids are shooting sub 65 rounds from 7300 yards.   They can roll out all these videos they want, but I'll take every single starter at a top 20 mens college program over an LPGA player.  

 

 

As noted earlier in the thread everyone played from the same tees at the Hilton event a few weeks ago, yet the celeb scratch males, including one who almost made the Champions Tour, didn't come anywhere close to the top women for the week. In fact, Annika beat almost all of them and she's retired. You mention liking seeing Nelly play before you go on to by inference disparage her as not being capable of beating collegiate men, but real world examples don't work for your beliefs.

 

On average would a professional women's player be at a disadvantage having to play from the same tees as a man? No doubt. That said, in the actual situations we have video of, non-professional men do not beat out pro ladies as a rule.

 

I welcome actual instances you can show proof of your claims with rather than just talking based on anecdotes. Happy to admit you're right when you present actual evidence.