Scratch/Plus Handicap amateur male golfer vs. Nelly Korda (LGPA)

[mbb86]

On 1/14/2024 at 8:46 PM, ThinkingPlus said:

Pretty sure that is a woman's index. Closer to +1 - +2 men's.

 

Am +2 golfer that consistently plays tournaments, have seen Nelly play in person many times. Would bet on Nelly heads up vs me any day. 

[PhilWhitUK]

I’m still wishing for the guy that challenged Charley Hull to step up! Perhaps we could get Nelly and Charley v two male plus handicap amateur challengers!  
 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

2 minutes ago, mbb86 said:

 

Am +2 golfer that consistently plays tournaments, have seen Nelly play in person many times. Would bet on Nelly heads up vs me any day. 

I simply converted Lydia's H.I. from women's to men's. The notional conversion is about 5 - 6 strokes. Others mentioned that Nelly's index would be similar. In general, both men and women touring pros will carry handicaps of +5 to +8 in their respected classifications.

[AmateurAmateur]

Grant Horvat being a + handicap is the most shocking thing about this. 

[tatertot]

On 1/14/2024 at 11:08 AM, bcjim said:

I think they all ought to actually have a tournament with all these guys.  I know there's been the occasional half assed thing but surely some sponsor could be found to put up a decent purse for a one off event? Gross and net even.

 

Do too many guys fear getting exposed and their covers blown? Why hasn't this happened?

 

I saw this guy play Bethpage,  he's obv good but also obv not a tour level golfer currently. 

 

 

No way they'd ever have a tournament.

 

No retakes and edit.

[mshills]

On 1/14/2024 at 10:29 PM, straightshot7 said:

Aren’t the debates typically about an “average LPGA tour player”?

 

that’s a far cry from arguably best woman player in the world. 
 

Like the difference between Kevin Streelman and Rory or Scottie sheffler. Different animal. 

 

Get your point, but not sure if that matters.  The difference between an elite touring pro and an average pro on that same tour is small, something on the order of less than one stroke per round.  The difference between someone who's job is to play golf and even an elite amateur is orders of magnitude larger.

 

People underestimate what playing golf for a living is....a whole other orbit from playing college golf, or entering regional amateur competitions while you have a day job paying the bills.

[North Texas]

In the 2000's, there have been 4 LPGA pros play in a PGA event. While all 4 missed the cut, ask yourself how would a typical male scratch golfer have compared score wise?

 

I'm guessing not very well. 

[kiwigolf72]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I simply converted Lydia's H.I. from women's to men's. The notional conversion is about 5 - 6 strokes. Others mentioned that Nelly's index would be similar. In general, both men and women touring pros will carry handicaps of +5 to +8 in their respected classifications.

Lydia's HC was from 2013, not sure if 26-year-old Lydia is any better than 16-year-old was.

[ThinkingPlus]

15 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

Lydia's HC was from 2013, not sure if 26-year-old Lydia is any better than 16-year-old was.

Probably not. She was a prodigy after all. I have played against +3 - +4 women in state comps before. They are very good. Mostly it comes down to how bad are the bad shots and how well can you recover from the bad shots. They very rarely carelessly give away strokes.

[CDLgolf]

A +2 hdcp and director of golf at Michael Jordans club just finished last in the Dubai tournament. Fleetwood beat him by 70+ strokes and 2nd last beat him by 30+ strokes. I don't see how they could compete with a professional golfer male or female. 

[kiwigolf72]

Just now, ThinkingPlus said:

Probably not. She was a prodigy after all. I have played against +3 - +4 women in state comps before. They are very good. Mostly it comes down to how bad are the bad shots and how well can you recover from the bad shots. They very rarely carelessly give away strokes.

I agree Lydia played her best stuff early in her career. 

[Phabs]

34 minutes ago, CDLgolf said:

A +2 hdcp and director of golf at Michael Jordans club just finished last in the Dubai tournament. Fleetwood beat him by 70+ strokes and 2nd last beat him by 30+ strokes. I don't see how they could compete with a professional golfer male or female. 

Not sure if that's a fair comparo - that guy had a rough weekend by a drunk 15 handicappers expectations 

[straightshot7]

2 hours ago, mshills said:

 

Get your point, but not sure if that matters.  The difference between an elite touring pro and an average pro on that same tour is small, something on the order of less than one stroke per round.  The difference between someone who's job is to play golf and even an elite amateur is orders of magnitude larger.

 

People underestimate what playing golf for a living is....a whole other orbit from playing college golf, or entering regional amateur competitions while you have a day job paying the bills.

 

Maybe so - - but there is a whole lot of a talent gap between a former D1 who carries it 300 and an average LPGA Tour player who carries it 250.

 

There are a number of guys floating around who couldn't make it on the Mini-Tour circuit due to an injury or something or didn't quite make it through Q-School so they took a normal job.

 

If we include those kind of people in the eligible pool, I would wager they will beat the average LPGA Tour player sometimes. 

 

Let's not mistake "elite amateur" for just guys who only play their home club and are not really serious players.

 

if we include all amateurs, there are obviously amateurs who could play on the LPGA Tour right now:

 

But Gordon Sargent doesn't play golf for money so I guess he couldn't hang? 

 

[CDLgolf]

1 hour ago, Phabs said:

Not sure if that's a fair comparo - that guy had a rough weekend by a drunk 15 handicappers expectations 

 

I'm sure it wasn't his best performance but even if he shoots 4 rounds at 5 over he looses by 40.

[Shilgy]

5 minutes ago, straightshot7 said:

 

Maybe so - - but there is a whole lot of a talent gap between a former D1 who carries it 300 and an average LPGA Tour player who carries it 250.

 

There are a number of guys floating around who couldn't make it on the Mini-Tour circuit due to an injury or something or didn't quite make it through Q-School so they took a normal job.

 

If we include those kind of people in the eligible pool, I would wager they will beat the average LPGA Tour player sometimes. 

 

Let's not mistake "elite amateur" for just guys who only play their home club and are not really serious players.

 

if we include all amateurs, there are obviously amateurs who could play on the LPGA Tour right now:

 

But Gordon Sargent doesn't play golf for money so I guess he couldn't hang? 

 

To your first sentence…there a whole lot of distance between the guy and the gal in your scenario but not necessarily a big talent gap.  There are plenty of former D1 guys that hit it long but are not, and never were, better than the average LPGA pro. #100 lady this past season averaged just under 72.00. D1 level golf is full of guys that would never sniff that-at any yardage.

[mshills]

12 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

Maybe so - - but there is a whole lot of a talent gap between a former D1 who carries it 300 and an average LPGA Tour player who carries it 250.

 

There are a number of guys floating around who couldn't make it on the Mini-Tour circuit due to an injury or something or didn't quite make it through Q-School so they took a normal job.

 

If we include those kind of people in the eligible pool, I would wager they will beat the average LPGA Tour player sometimes. 

 

Let's not mistake "elite amateur" for just guys who only play their home club and are not really serious players.

 

I'm not so interested if a guy who played in college five years ago can carry it 300.  There are literally thousands, or tens of thousands of those guys out there.  I am interested in what he can shoot on a course he has never seen before after seven hours of sleep in a bed that is not his and eating a hotel breakfast with the powdered eggs when he knows his outstanding rent check and car note depend on that score.  If it's at least a couple under par, then we're talking someone who might be able to handle the grind.  If it's 71+, that's the guy who is a hell of a player, plays the mini tours for 3y, runs out of loot, then takes a desk job.

 

Get your point on elite amateur definition.  That's not the guy who plays in the Saturday morning game at the club, no doubt.

 

My point is not to put an LPGA (or PGA) player on a pedestal.  They hit bad shots, they have bad days and weeks and months and seasons too.  My point is that playing golf for a living is so different that it is almost not the same game.

Edited January 17 by mshills

[tatertot]

1 hour ago, straightshot7 said:

 

Maybe so - - but there is a whole lot of a talent gap between a former D1 who carries it 300 and an average LPGA Tour player who carries it 250.

 

There are a number of guys floating around who couldn't make it on the Mini-Tour circuit due to an injury or something or didn't quite make it through Q-School so they took a normal job.

 

If we include those kind of people in the eligible pool, I would wager they will beat the average LPGA Tour player sometimes. 

 

Let's not mistake "elite amateur" for just guys who only play their home club and are not really serious players.

 

if we include all amateurs, there are obviously amateurs who could play on the LPGA Tour right now:

 

But Gordon Sargent doesn't play golf for money so I guess he couldn't hang? 

 

Took till page 3 for the crazy posts to start ... Better than average.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, tatertot said:

Took till page 3 for the crazy posts to start ... Better than average.

Yeah, for some it’s like what they really want to post is:

 

yeah but he’s a guy and she’s a girl…nuff said!

[kiwigolf72]

I was lucky enough to play 2 Eisenhower trophy tournaments representing New Zealand ( back in the day.) I was on+3 and probably back then I thought I could compete with anyone.

30 years later I hover around scratch and I am under no illusion that I can compete with a pro, even if she is a girl.

 

 

Edited January 18 by kiwigolf72

[woahnelly]

15 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Yeah, for some it’s like what they really want to post is:

 

yeah but he’s a guy and she’s a girl…nuff said!

 

or some people really think because you can drive it further off the tee, you are automatically a better player. Why ain't Brandon Matthews the goat then? 

[jimecherry]

7 hours ago, tatertot said:

No way they'd ever have a tournament.

 

No retakes and edit.

looks like good good is doing a content creator live two man team event

its going to be on peacock and on youtube. still doesnt cover all of them rick shiels is to busy, and no bob does sports

 

Edited January 17 by jimecherry

[Valtiel]

On 1/14/2024 at 9:01 AM, SoCalTitleist said:

hate all these videos can a Youtuber beat a pro.  

 

Some of these videos are pain full to watch, golf is already slow but hearing dudes complain and comment the entire video  why they miss shots every hole and oh let me hit this soft 3/4 baby knock down fade into the hole then proceed to miss a mile.

Fascinating social experiment though. There are all sorts of funny bits of data floating around re: dudes wildly overestimating their abilities, especially against women in various professions. That classic "scoring a point against Serena Williams" survey as well as a more recent example of a D1 track athlete being challenged by her boyfriend's friend who "refused to believe a woman could beat him in a race" that she ended up basically toying with. 

As @cardia10 explained so well above, dudes get WAXED in these stories all the time. 

[JDIL]

In most sports women get trounced by amateur and even high schoolers. Likely the bias is getting carried over, because golf is not one of these sports where it's so easy.

[aenemated]

33 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

dudes wildly overestimating their abilities

 

[woahnelly]

18 minutes ago, JDIL said:

In most sports women get trounced by amateur and even high schoolers. Likely the bias is getting carried over, because golf is not one of these sports where it's so easy.

 

In high school, LPGA player Annie Park beat all the boys by 8 strokes to win the county championship. The dude she beat, Matt Lowe, won the other 3 years and he played and set school records at a D1 school. 

[st1800e]

Yep, LPGA Pros…

 

“These players are good”. 

[PedronNiall]

On 1/15/2024 at 1:58 PM, PJE said:

Female pro golfers, while highly accomplished, are not competitive at the highest level of pro golf- the PGA Tour. A female  pro can’t even make a cut on Tour. 
Most golfers are male.
Many accomplished male golfers  hit the ball as far or further than female pros. 
Most sports fans are male. 

The sum of this is a relative lack of interest in the LPGA and other women’s tours. 
But, when and if, a  female pro successfully competes on Tour, there will be an explosion of interest. I think this could happen someday. 

Most fanatics are male. Casual fans are pretty evenly split by gender. Total fans represented by each don't really vary that much overall for it to matter in the big picture.

 

 

You aren't going to do well with ratings for any sport if women aren't watching, too. Men and women, casual or otherwise, both tend to cheer for winners who, while they might be gracious enough to acknowledge their competitors as well, celebrate their wins. That's why despite what I mentioned earlier in the thread about ladies often not celebrating other ladies getting it done, those female athletes like The Williams Sisters who leave it all out on the field/court/track/etc win over big crowds, male or female. Those who try to say they aren't getting a fair shot because they're women tend to be ignored or worse by fans, male or female.

 

Wie and others who try to make the cut at PGA events attract temporary interest because oddities will always draw a crowd. If a woman starts to compete successfully on the PGA that temporary attention is only going to last if she naturally displays something more intense than the shy hand waves and almost embarrassed demeanor of many pro ladies players.

 

If there were more Pettersens and Hulls on the LPGA who go off and get visibly excited on clutch putts and great shots the ratings would be higher and the fan base would be bigger, male and female. For many reasons that's unlikely.

[JungleJimbo]

47 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

 

 

If there were more Pettersens and Hulls on the LPGA who go off and get visibly excited on clutch putts and great shots the ratings would be higher and the fan base would be bigger, male and female. For many reasons that's unlikely.

 

[cardoustie]

The summary is always the same … elite travelling national +4 and better male am’s could hang and win … 

 

most guys haven’t played with the type of player I mention above 

 

the rest of the “country club scratch” or “home course hero” crowd … nope 

[tacklingdummy]

10 hours ago, JungleJimbo said:

 

 

 

That 3 capper would get absolutely destroyed by Charley Hull. Guaranteed. I would like to bet on that match and see it.