Modern instruction - Depth, Shallow & Rotation Obesseion

[Mikee_j]

Obsession might not be too strong a word when you look at YouTube and all the videos and headlines which preach shallowing, more rotation and certain time depth.

 

Is all this hype and words causing many people to want to change swings with no benefit?

 

I’ll take myself as an example, I’m 6”4 with a slightly upright swing with a lack of depth. I shallow the club a little bit in transition, but nowhere close to what is being taught as a target. I have a little early extension, but my track man numbers are decent. A few degrees from the inside and do not struggle with distance. I’m a 4 handicap and iron ball striking is my strong game.

 

For the last year I’ve been working with a coach who wants me to have more depth, more shallow and in turn more rotation through the ball. But I just can’t get any success or consistency making these changes. All the positions and feels im using to get into the right place coming down just feels like a ton of manipulation, whether it’s keeping hands back, wrists, etc etc.

 

Yesterday I was having a nightmare and the back 9 decided to go back to my more upright swing and wow. The ball striking was crazy good and shot level par missing 3 easy birdie putts. 
 

I guess what I’m asking is should everyone be trying to get this rotational super shallow swing? Are instructors just using a copy paste method of teaching? Should I preserve for the greater good of my swing?

 

be interested to hear your thoughts and comments…

[skim4]

I don't think the good instructors are teaching getting shallow just for shallows sake. But as a way to get in a more replicable/ consistent  position. 

 

My golf instructor in 2008 was trying to get me more shallow. I took 15 years off and came back the game in summer of 2023 and my new coach is trying to get me more shallow. So I think there is a method to the madness. Im around the same cap as you but ball striking is my #1 enemy. So maybe we are opposites! 

[Hawkeye77]

You are overgeneralizing. 

[phizzy30]

I was getting too shallow with my iron swing and went the other way.  My ball striking with irons has never been better.  More shaft lean, more spin, little bit more carry, better contact, but most of all better distance control.  It really depends on what you're trying to accomplish IMO.  If you don't need to shallow out more but your swing coach is preaching it, I recommend looking for another teaching pro. 

[MonteScheinblum]

I don’t think this is unfair to say these these are over taught.

 

All 3 of these things are a parabolic curve and more is often not better.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Mikee_j said:

For the last year I’ve been working with a coach who wants me to have more depth, more shallow and in turn more rotation through the ball. But I just can’t get any success or consistency making these changes. All the positions and feels im using to get into the right place coming down just feels like a ton of manipulation, whether it’s keeping hands back, wrists, etc etc.

 

Either…

• You're not practicing properly.
• You should find a new instructor.

To the topic at hand… I think it's being over-taught a bit. But even years ago, I had a student (who was massively laid off at the top) who was obsessed with "getting more shallow." My point that he was already too shallow, which is why he steepened so much in transition/early downswing fell on deaf ears.

[Hawkeye77]

42 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I don’t think this is unfair to say these these are over taught.

 

All 3 of these things are a parabolic curve and more is often not better.

As an observer more than anything it seems like it wasn’t that long ago and for quite some time (IMO) it was all about “pivot” as if it was an end in itself. I’ve enjoyed learning about transition and shallowing, for example, as that has become more of a focus (40+ years of steep, lol) and for for me what it means, how it looks and how things need to work (some of which just happen when certain other things work in sequence). 
 

 

[Mikee_j]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Either…

• You're not practicing properly.
• You should find a new instructor.

 

 

If I'm being honest with myself, I haven't practiced enough to grind in the new feels and swing. 

 

Question is, is the time at the range worth the grind to hopefully shave off a couple of strokes on the handicap

[Jtgavigan]

1 hour ago, Mikee_j said:

 

If I'm being honest with myself, I haven't practiced enough to grind in the new feels and swing. 

 

Question is, is the time at the range worth the grind to hopefully shave off a couple of strokes on the handicap

The real question is why are you taking lessons if you don't want to take the time to try to improve? If I am taking lessons, I have to commit to putting in the work to do what my instructor asks. Otherwise,  I wont waste their time and my money.

 

On the topic at hand, I do believe these principles are over taught. Seeing some of the research done my Mike Adam's and Terry Rowles, along with several others they work with, convinced me that based on our body type, each of us has a swing blueprint. Depending on how you measure out and how much flexibility your trail shoulder has helps determine how much you should shallow. They show very shallow and very upright swings in their videos and break down why they work for that person. I remember seeing a quick breakdown of John Senden, who was VERY upright and has always been an excellent ball striker.

 

A good instructor, whether following Mike and Terry and their crowd or not, should at least be able to recognize the individual and what their matchups should be versus just teaching everyone the same thing. If someone started teaching me to get a ton of side bend with the handle forward at impact, I would run. That is not my matchup at all. Yet, some instructors may believe this is the new modern swing and everyone should be striving for it.

 

Just my 2 cents. 

[RoyalMustang]

18 hours ago, Mikee_j said:

Obsession might not be too strong a word when you look at YouTube and all the videos and headlines which preach shallowing, more rotation and certain time depth.

 

Is all this hype and words causing many people to want to change swings with no benefit?

 

I’ll take myself as an example, I’m 6”4 with a slightly upright swing with a lack of depth. I shallow the club a little bit in transition, but nowhere close to what is being taught as a target. I have a little early extension, but my track man numbers are decent. A few degrees from the inside and do not struggle with distance. I’m a 4 handicap and iron ball striking is my strong game.

 

For the last year I’ve been working with a coach who wants me to have more depth, more shallow and in turn more rotation through the ball. But I just can’t get any success or consistency making these changes. All the positions and feels im using to get into the right place coming down just feels like a ton of manipulation, whether it’s keeping hands back, wrists, etc etc.

 

Yesterday I was having a nightmare and the back 9 decided to go back to my more upright swing and wow. The ball striking was crazy good and shot level par missing 3 easy birdie putts. 
 

I guess what I’m asking is should everyone be trying to get this rotational super shallow swing? Are instructors just using a copy paste method of teaching? Should I preserve for the greater good of my swing?

 

be interested to hear your thoughts and comments…

 

Your swing will be a function of your body (build, athletic ability, coordiation, flexibility, motor control, kinestetic awareness). 

 

What your coach wants to see is likely not what you are capable of. It's one thing to know what to do in an ideal world and quite another to have the ability to accomplish these moves. I've been working with my wife (she's almost got her TPI L3 Medical now) on gaining the things mentioned above so that I can make a more shallow, rotational swing, but I've always been very, very stiff, even as a kid. I'm wound tightly; in 4th grade I was the only kid not only not able to touch their toes, but not able to touch their ankles. There's only so much you can do with that kind of natural stiffness. When I did my initial TPI golf strength/flexibility assessment I scored a 35 handicap! I failed all but 2 tests: at the time I was playing to a 7 and was carrying 290 with my driver, which tells you that I'm reasonably strong and coordinated but not capable of making a good, not EE golf swing. 

 

As a result, I just can't get as rotational and shallow as I'd like. It's better now and I'm more consistent, but as you mentioned, building a much more rotational swing, even after lots of practice, just isn't nautral for someone like me who is so stiff. I have to think about it every single swing. It's highly mechanical and if I'm off even by a little bit, watch out. 

 

I'll keep working on it as I do believe I can improve my rotation ability and therefore my swing. When I get it right it's pure striped nirvana but if I'm even a little bit quick, my divot may go further than my ball. 

 

Anyways, long answer, but I'd summarize as understand your abilities. Find a coach who knows the body, not just the swing, so that limitations can be identified and addressed with a therapist in conjunction with your swing instruction. 

[SNIPERBBB]

I wonder... For the taller guys  seems like they tend to have less depth than us more normal height guys, I'm 5'11". Is that a partially a function of not having fitted clubs starting out and developing a swing for those lengths? 

[Hawkeye77]

32 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

I wonder... For the taller guys  seems like they tend to have less depth than us more normal height guys, I'm 5'11". Is that a partially a function of not having fitted clubs starting out and developing a swing for those lengths? 

Interesting. From day one as a 10-11 year old my clubs were (in hindsight) too heavy and stiff for me - serious antiques that were cut down (I did custom fit by buying ladies clubs in junior high when I bought my first real set, lol). I had plenty of speed by the time I had my first men’s set but years of swinging the way I had taught myself to swing had already set a pattern for sure. 

Edited February 16 by Hawkeye77

[doctor220]

19 hours ago, Mikee_j said:

Obsession might not be too strong a word when you look at YouTube and all the videos and headlines which preach shallowing, more rotation and certain time depth.

 

Is all this hype and words causing many people to want to change swings with no benefit?

 

I’ll take myself as an example, I’m 6”4 with a slightly upright swing with a lack of depth. I shallow the club a little bit in transition, but nowhere close to what is being taught as a target. I have a little early extension, but my track man numbers are decent. A few degrees from the inside and do not struggle with distance. I’m a 4 handicap and iron ball striking is my strong game.

 

For the last year I’ve been working with a coach who wants me to have more depth, more shallow and in turn more rotation through the ball. But I just can’t get any success or consistency making these changes. All the positions and feels im using to get into the right place coming down just feels like a ton of manipulation, whether it’s keeping hands back, wrists, etc etc.

 

Yesterday I was having a nightmare and the back 9 decided to go back to my more upright swing and wow. The ball striking was crazy good and shot level par missing 3 easy birdie putts. 
 

I guess what I’m asking is should everyone be trying to get this rotational super shallow swing? Are instructors just using a copy paste method of teaching? Should I preserve for the greater good of my swing?

 

be interested to hear your thoughts and comments…

If you don’t believe in what the coach is telling you then why did you stick with them for a year ? Of course it’s going to feel weird making changes, if you didn’t, nothing would change. 
 

you can’t just flip between swings. Anytime someone says “ I tried my old swing “ that’s generally a bad sign and means you don’t really understand what is going on. 

[KMeloney]

6 hours ago, Mikee_j said:

Question is, is the time at the range worth the grind to hopefully shave off a couple of strokes on the handicap

 

I don't see how anyone but you can answer that question. Who knows what is and isn't "worth it" to you?

[Hawkeye77]

6 hours ago, Mikee_j said:

 

If I'm being honest with myself, I haven't practiced enough to grind in the new feels and swing. 

 

Question is, is the time at the range worth the grind to hopefully shave off a couple of strokes on the handicap

Be honest with us as well, lol.  With the above info, nothing about the original post warrants the "cut and paste" suggestion and painting most instructors with a broad brush.  It's been a year and you admit you haven't given it a fair chance - certainly not fair to the instructor you pretty much suggest has taken you down the wrong road.

 

"Took my 'new' swing (which I haven't really worked on enough) to the course and abandoned it and played fine the old way (which I always could do on occasion)."

 

Sounds like many of us, haha.  Join the club!

 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

20 hours ago, Mikee_j said:

 

For the last year I’ve been working with a coach who wants me to have more depth, more shallow and in turn more rotation through the ball. 

 

The real question is... Why does your coach want this? 

 

Is it because your coach is trying to move you into their preferred swing pattern? Or is it because your coach has explained to you why your current swing is causing you issues and how these changes will give you better results? 

 

If it's the former, run like hell. If it's the latter, and you trust the coach, then maybe you should work harder on getting there. 

 

I went to a coach years ago that didn't care about my current swing; he just wanted me to swing like Moe Norman. (I should have run away much faster than I did, but I was young and dumb.) 

 

IMHO you go to an instructor because you're dissatisfied with some aspect of your game and want it to improve. If your coach can't explain why your current patterns are causing your dissatisfying results, and why the new patterns will improve those specific areas, then they're not a good coach. 

[golferdude54]

I agree on those being over-taught, along with the bowed left wrist and shut club-face at the top. Any deviation from a flat lead wrist and on-plane club (shaft pointing at where bottom of hosel was at address when it is short of parallel) and clubface parallel to lead arm at the top will lead to a wider dispersion. Here's Tiger at his absolute best in 2006 WGC American Express where he admitted that his ball-striking was the best he's ever hit it that week.

 

[Nels55]

As @Jtgavigan mentioned it seems that the correct depth of backswing is determined by a golfer's build and flexibility.  If at the top the golfers trail elbow is bent at 90 degrees and the upper arm is parallel to the ground with the forearm close to perpendicular to the ground then the depth should be correct.  In general we don't want the elbow bent to much or the upper arm down against the side of the body trying to get more depth.

[Laaandry]

On 2/15/2024 at 7:00 PM, iacas said:

But even years ago, I had a student (who was massively laid off at the top) who was obsessed with "getting more shallow." My point that he was already too shallow, which is why he steepened so much in transition/early downswing fell on deaf ears.

 

This is me!! Any pointers on what helped? I've been working to get more vertical in the backswing but I still tend to fire the hands towards the ball from the top.

[GolfTurkey]

AMG adding their 2c:
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4JorVDN16N/?igsh=Y2syd3ZkcG5mM2V5

 

[hanginnwangin]

On 2/16/2024 at 3:14 AM, Jtgavigan said:

The real question is why are you taking lessons if you don't want to take the time to try to improve? If I am taking lessons, I have to commit to putting in the work to do what my instructor asks. Otherwise,  I wont waste their time and my money.

 

 

 

Just my 2 cents. 

This. When I have taken lessons, I have worked almost psychotically to improve because I don't want to be that guy that spends money on lessons and gets nothing or very little out of it, which seems like what many people do.

[ferrispgm]

in golf just like anything else, there are fads and those fads become mainstream until the next fad.  Being able to see through what's "in" and what is real are key. There are just as many clickbaity instructors as there are people selling rental RE courses on buying homes with 0% down, business buying with 0 money down, etc.  If someone won a tournament hitting it 340 with an OTT swing, the next GD article would be about how coming OTT is the key to power.  If someone made $10mil by sharpening pencils, youtube would be filled with videos on how to start pencil companies. 

[virtuoso]

7 minutes ago, ferrispgm said:

 If someone won a tournament hitting it 340 with an OTT swing, the next GD article would be about how coming OTT is the key to power. 

...too late:

https://miracleswingexperience.com/

 

[Ajgaguy83]

54 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

...too late:

https://miracleswingexperience.com/

 

Wow….. anyone have a credit card I can borrow?

[badboggs]

I've always wondered why shallow is better exactly?  Doesn't having the club coming more from the inside just make the angular change greater?

 

If you look at it in terms of putting having the club coming more from the inside and rotating isn't more consistent.

 

Isn't this part of why Bryson has really upright iron lies?  He can swing on a plane with less manipulation?

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

...too late:

https://miracleswingexperience.com/

 

Possibly not a reputable site:

[mgoblue83]

On 2/15/2024 at 2:41 PM, Mikee_j said:

Obsession might not be too strong a word when you look at YouTube and all the videos and headlines which preach shallowing, more rotation and certain time depth.

 

Is all this hype and words causing many people to want to change swings with no benefit?

 

I’ll take myself as an example, I’m 6”4 with a slightly upright swing with a lack of depth. I shallow the club a little bit in transition, but nowhere close to what is being taught as a target. I have a little early extension, but my track man numbers are decent. A few degrees from the inside and do not struggle with distance. I’m a 4 handicap and iron ball striking is my strong game.

 

For the last year I’ve been working with a coach who wants me to have more depth, more shallow and in turn more rotation through the ball. But I just can’t get any success or consistency making these changes. All the positions and feels im using to get into the right place coming down just feels like a ton of manipulation, whether it’s keeping hands back, wrists, etc etc.

 

Yesterday I was having a nightmare and the back 9 decided to go back to my more upright swing and wow. The ball striking was crazy good and shot level par missing 3 easy birdie putts. 
 

I guess what I’m asking is should everyone be trying to get this rotational super shallow swing? Are instructors just using a copy paste method of teaching? Should I preserve for the greater good of my swing?

 

be interested to hear your thoughts and comments…

 

Your thinking is correct. All that matters is having a repeatable motion that works and a lot of it depends on your physical limitations. Exaggerated shallowing is just not going to work for the majority of players who have desk jobs.

 

The other thing is you won't see many taller players shallowing drastically although the solid ball strikers are shallow enough to control path and low point.

[Deadaimz]

For me leaving to shallow was key in my game improving. I still fight the over the top move with shoulders or arms/ wrist. This is my idea of shallowing which is the lowering of the right arm while rotating in sync alla amg. I do still try the elite golf way of doing it but it is not as consistent as the amg method for me.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_lV5DWWnsg?si=TcJF_GtSLyqljJbt

[bladehunter]

On 2/15/2024 at 2:41 PM, Mikee_j said:

Obsession might not be too strong a word when you look at YouTube and all the videos and headlines which preach shallowing, more rotation and certain time depth.

 

Is all this hype and words causing many people to want to change swings with no benefit?

 

I’ll take myself as an example, I’m 6”4 with a slightly upright swing with a lack of depth. I shallow the club a little bit in transition, but nowhere close to what is being taught as a target. I have a little early extension, but my track man numbers are decent. A few degrees from the inside and do not struggle with distance. I’m a 4 handicap and iron ball striking is my strong game.

 

For the last year I’ve been working with a coach who wants me to have more depth, more shallow and in turn more rotation through the ball. But I just can’t get any success or consistency making these changes. All the positions and feels im using to get into the right place coming down just feels like a ton of manipulation, whether it’s keeping hands back, wrists, etc etc.

 

Yesterday I was having a nightmare and the back 9 decided to go back to my more upright swing and wow. The ball striking was crazy good and shot level par missing 3 easy birdie putts. 
 

I guess what I’m asking is should everyone be trying to get this rotational super shallow swing? Are instructors just using a copy paste method of teaching? Should I preserve for the greater good of my swing?

 

be interested to hear your thoughts and comments…

Find a tall instructor. Different body’s do different things. Ben hogan wouldn’t have swung the same way if he were your height. It’s next to impossible in fact . 

[MK7Golf21]

On 2/16/2024 at 11:58 AM, golferdude54 said:

I agree on those being over-taught, along with the bowed left wrist and shut club-face at the top. Any deviation from a flat lead wrist and on-plane club (shaft pointing at where bottom of hosel was at address when it is short of parallel) and clubface parallel to lead arm at the top will lead to a wider dispersion. Here's Tiger at his absolute best in 2006 WGC American Express where he admitted that his ball-striking was the best he's ever hit it that week.

 

 

pretty bold statement to make