Caddy Criticism

[IndyArcher]

So once again, following the apparent slide of Rory over the last 3 holes or so at the US Open, I've seen several posts criticizing his choice of caddy. Then there is the famous break-up of Thomas/Bones, Tiger/Williams several years ago, et. al. I know that different caddies bring different things to the table. For Scheffler, it seems to me that he doesn't rely as much on playing advice from Ted as he does just helping keep his head in the game. Other caddies, however, lay on the green or help line up the putts, and spend enormous amounts of time/energy actually getting the golfer ready for a hit. 

 

So with that in mind...

 

1) Is it appropriate to blame a caddy for failures like Rory experienced on Sunday or is that solely on the pro player?

 

2) What is an appropriate expectation of help for a caddy to provide at a pro level tournament? What is consistent across the board and what is just on an as-needed basis? Or is it all just personal preference?

[bcflyguy1]

3 minutes ago, IndyArcher said:

So with that in mind...

 

1) Is it appropriate to blame a caddy for failures like Rory experienced on Sunday or is that solely on the pro player?

 

2) What is an appropriate expectation of help for a caddy to provide at a pro level tournament? What is consistent across the board and what is just on an as-needed basis? Or is it all just personal preference?

1) Bleeding obvious that Rory's concentration/mental fuel tank ran dry 2 holes from the finish line and he simply snapped. Certainy understandable in that moment, and no caddy in the world is going to stop that. Baseless criticism from Chamblee and others, but then he's become known for that over the years, hasn't he?

 

2) The caddy is there to provide whatever level of assistance their player asks within the rules, however much or little that might be. Anybody giving an answer divergent from that, particularly from such a distance, is blowing pure methane.

[Pastit]

3 minutes ago, bcflyguy1 said:

1) Bleeding obvious that Rory's concentration/mental fuel tank ran dry 2 holes from the finish line and he simply snapped. Certainy understandable in that moment, and no caddy in the world is going to stop that. Baseless criticism from Chamblee and others, but then he's become known for that over the years, hasn't he?

 

2) The caddy is there to provide whatever level of assistance their player asks within the rules, however much or little that might be. Anybody giving an answer divergent from that, particularly from such a distance, is blowing pure methane.

 I love listening to criticism from commentators who’ve never been near winning a major. 

Edited June 18 by Pastit
Omission

[Socrates]

21 minutes ago, IndyArcher said:

So with that in mind...

 

1) Is it appropriate to blame a caddy for failures like Rory experienced on Sunday or is that solely on the pro player?

Solely on the player.  

 

21 minutes ago, IndyArcher said:

2) What is an appropriate expectation of help for a caddy to provide at a pro level tournament? What is consistent across the board and what is just on an as-needed basis? Or is it all just personal preference?

It depends on what the arrangement is between the player and caddy.  We have no idea what has been agreed on as to where the boundary is between the two of them.  Some might want them to be a psychiatrist and some just want them to hold the bag and shut up. 

 

Nothing more than blah, blah, blah from anyone else who isn't Rory or his caddy. 

[Murphy76]

 

A caddie is the sauce on the steak.  

 

If a steak is burned, no amount of sauce will save it.

[Jeff58]

Firstly, I don’t believe I’ve ever disagreed with one of @bcflyguy1 posts, but I will humbly do so partially here.

 

1. A caddy can help both physically and mentally. In pressure situations, even highly experienced players become distracted to the point that basic bodily functions are compromised. In swimming for instance (as in golf), a consistent problem is forgetting to breath. In this scenario, the caddy should first ensure that the player is eating and drinking optimally. I didn’t see any of that, though admittedly the coverage is incomplete, and Rory’s overall body language seemed to confirm it. His pre shot routine was inconsistent, with the final putt being grossly obvious. The caddy should be there to derail the need for immediate action and ensure consistent mechanics. Again here, not much of that going on.
 

2. The nature and degree of shot assistance is defined by the player. Every player and caddy has this interaction predefined. Breaking this pattern in a tournament environment would be grounds for termination.

[third-times-a-charm]

I think there should be no caddies and players should carry their clubs and make their own decisions. 

[bcflyguy1]

13 minutes ago, Jeff58 said:

Firstly, I don’t believe I’ve ever disagreed with one of @bcflyguy1 posts, but I will humbly do so partially here.

 

1. A caddy can help both physically and mentally. In pressure situations, even highly experienced players become distracted to the point that basic bodily functions are compromised. In swimming for instance (as in golf), a consistent problem is forgetting to breath. In this scenario, the caddy should first ensure that the player is eating and drinking optimally. I didn’t see any of that, though admittedly the coverage is incomplete, and Rory’s overall body language seemed to confirm it. His pre shot routine was inconsistent, with the final putt being grossly obvious. The caddy should be there to derail the need for immediate action and ensure consistent mechanics. Again here, not much of that going on.
 

2. The nature and degree of shot assistance is defined by the player. Every player and caddy has this interaction predefined. Breaking this pattern in a tournament environment would be grounds for termination.

Cap tip to you, good Sir @Jeff58. To clarify where I come out on this is:

 

1) Might another caddie and caddie/player arrangement have helped Rory stumble over the line before completely bleeding out? Possibly, sure.

2) Rory's caddy is there because Rory wants him there, and as long as he remains it can reasonably be assumed that he's providing what his employer is asking of him and how he wants whatever that is. If that's insufficient somehow, responsibility for that falls squarely on the player.

3) So many other larger contributing factors to what we saw Sunday that I just don't see caddy being significant enough to even warrant a mention. If Rory's personal life was in good order and his recent major form had been better, that would be another matter. 

Edited June 18 by bcflyguy1

[LBB]

If Rory's caddie is to blame for his last 4 holes, he should also get credit for 4 birdies in 5 holes...no?  Or are we trying to draw some type of correlation to Rory's good play having nothing to do with his caddie and all his bad play because his caddie isn't doing a good enough job?

 

[bcflyguy1]

1 hour ago, Pastit said:

 I love listening to criticism from commentators who’ve never been near winning a major. 

Chamblee can be good at what he does at times, but the self-indulgent tendency to get out over his skis is so often his undoing.

Eddie Pepperell chirping is even more comical. Eddie, nobody asked you and they'd have no reason to anyway.

[bcflyguy1]

10 minutes ago, LBB said:

If Rory's caddie is to blame for his last 4 holes, he should also get credit for 4 birdies in 5 holes...no?  Or are we trying to draw some type of correlation to Rory's good play having nothing to do with his caddie and all his bad play because his caddie isn't doing a good enough job?

 

It makes zero sense.  There are a multitude of reasons for what we saw that are more causative and more obvious, but the help is catching strays.

 

Rory was and is a generational talent, but he is human, mortal, and flawed and with all the off-course static he's recently dealt with he clearly exceeded his operating limits. We all have them, and the consequences of exceeding those limits have commonalities from person to person.

 

 

[golfortennis]

7 minutes ago, bcflyguy1 said:

Chamblee can be good at what he does at times, but the self-indulgent tendency to get out over his skis is so often his undoing.

Eddie Pepperell chirping is even more comical. Eddie, nobody asked you and they'd have no reason to anyway.

 

A) you sure seem to have it out for Eddie Pepperell, and b)can you point me to your record in professional golf tournaments?  He's only won twice on the European tour, so I'll await with bated breath your victories.

[bcflyguy1]

1 minute ago, golfortennis said:

 

A) you sure seem to have it out for Eddie Pepperell, and b)can you point me to your record in professional golf tournaments?  He's only won twice on the European tour, so I'll await with bated breath your victories.

Couldn't care less, Eddie, cheers pal.

[Pepperturbo]

Can't answer the OPs last 2 questions because we don't know what requirements and limitations Rory set for his caddy.  And Rory is the one that sets the perimeters.  If that were not true, we wouldn't see caddy's being fired or concealed relationships quietly dissolved.

 

Everything stated in this thread is speculative at best. 

Edited June 18 by Pepperturbo

[farmer]

Rory is a grown a** man, who has played in about a million tournaments.  Has won majors, juniors, tour events everywhere.  If he cannot manage himself, what is the caddie to do?  Hit him with a cattle prod to bring him back?  Trank dart?

[Chopper Dave]

What other club could the caddy have handed Rory on the 18th green?

[StoutKing]

14 minutes ago, Chopper Dave said:

What other club could the caddy have handed Rory on the 18th green?

I would have made sure he hit 3 wood off the tee like the previous three days.  Then he has a wedge in and likely 20 feet or less for birdie.  Could have won it in regulation.  Hindsight is 20/20 though.

Edited June 18 by StoutKing

[dalehead]

12 minutes ago, StoutKing said:

I would have made sure he hit 3 wood off the tee like the previous three days.  Then he has a wedge in and likely 20 feet or less for birdie.  Could have won it in regulation.  Hindsight is 20/20 though.

Exactly. A caddy like Steve Williams, Joe LaCava, or Ted Scott would have snapped the shaft on Rory’s driver rather than let him hit it on 18 on Sunday.

[Hawkeye77]

8 hours ago, IndyArcher said:

So once again, following the apparent slide of Rory over the last 3 holes or so at the US Open, I've seen several posts criticizing his choice of caddy. Then there is the famous break-up of Thomas/Bones, Tiger/Williams several years ago, et. al. I know that different caddies bring different things to the table. For Scheffler, it seems to me that he doesn't rely as much on playing advice from Ted as he does just helping keep his head in the game. Other caddies, however, lay on the green or help line up the putts, and spend enormous amounts of time/energy actually getting the golfer ready for a hit. 

 

So with that in mind...

 

1) Is it appropriate to blame a caddy for failures like Rory experienced on Sunday or is that solely on the pro player?

 

2) What is an appropriate expectation of help for a caddy to provide at a pro level tournament? What is consistent across the board and what is just on an as-needed basis? Or is it all just personal preference?

Why more if the same old? Rory’s caddie didn’t miss two short putts and it’s all convenient second guessing by those who don’t like Rory, are jealous in some way Harry has a job and so forth. 
 

Player - caddie relationship is between the two of them, no “standard” as such. Nobody ragging on Rory here (not saying you are) knows enough about their relationship to criticize it. 

[IndyArcher]

13 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Why more if the same old? Rory’s caddie didn’t miss two short putts and it’s all convenient second guessing by those who don’t like Rory, are jealous in some way Harry has a job and so forth. 
 

Player - caddie relationship is between the two of them, no “standard” as such. Nobody ragging on Rory here (not saying you are) knows enough about their relationship to criticize it. 

Honestly I don’t know enough to stake a position. I am really simply curious what people thing the role of a caddy should be and how that would/should be determined. I’ve heard a number of people say that Roey should get rid of his caddy because ‘he doesn’t need a friend…’ My thinking is, how do we know that isn’t what he needs most in a caddy? There has to be a lot of trial and error for many players to finally connect with a caddy with both the skills and the personality to be truly beneficial to their game. 

[mosesgolf]

2012 Open won by Ernie Els gifted by Adam Scott who bogeyed the last 4 holes to lose by 1.  That was not Steve Williams’ fault.  The same goes for Harry.

[PedronNiall]

Rory is one of the few at the top level who puts almost no trust in his caddie. That means unlike almost everyone else out there he doesn't have anyone consistently backing his plays or backing him off as needed. Rory could always pull a Rahm, ignore his caddie trying to get him to chill, and hose one, but more likely than not if he actually took some input in the most important situations he'd have the confidence or correction almost everyone else out there has and uses to their advantage. You heard plenty of other caddies discussing shots over the weekend, including reminding players where they should be playing to and that on some shots they never, ever wanted to be long/short. None of that for Rory and clearly going solo he didn't keep himself in check.

 

Sure, maybe Harry being on the bag during Rory's entire Major drought and him not winning anything aren't related at all, but I'm going to say that's stretching coincidence. Not going to make a believer out of me that a competent caddie with a decade or more of experience lets Rory go down for the count like he did in the US last year or down in flames like he did this year. The guys with a good second out there aren't letting their guys go for cuts and fades that they haven't pulled off consistently in forever, aren't letting them pull clubs that will go long into trouble, aren't standing by and watching while the set up to short side themselves, and aren't letting their guy pull driver on the last with a Major on the line when 3 wood has gotten it done 3 out of 3 of the prior days.

 

Harry is Rory's best friend and that's what he acts like, to Rory's detriment. Unfortunately for Rory since by all appearances Harry has a free ride until the day Rory retires he really has no worries and he acts like it. If he knew he'd still want to be out there down the line he'd step up in a way that might make someone else see him as a benefit to have on the bag in the future. Anyone honestly think a single top 100 player would want Harry looping for them?

 

Considering the benefit even Tiger got in having two or three great guys on hand to back him up or back him down even while winning his Majors, sparing as their advice may have been at times, it's surprising to me that anyone would deny what a difference maker a good caddie is. In Jack's day they showed up, kept up, and shut up; now they show up early, walk off the pin placements, watch other player's rounds before you go off, and tell you what unexpected trouble to stay away from and what green lights are out there because of unique conditions that day. They also help almost everyone else out there read the trickiest/most important putts; even Tiger trusted both Steve & Joe for that, and Rory is no Tiger when it comes to putting. If you don't have that on your bag you are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to how much mental weight you're carrying the entirety of the day and how much you can process during any given situation compared to every other competitor out there.

 

Bonus points if your caddie is in tune enough to make sure you stay hydrated and fed as well like mentioned above. Rory has a porter, not a caddie, and it shows.

[mbb86]

The purpose of a caddy is to help the player perform their best. In about 98% of situations, Rory is very good at doing that mostly on his own. Or he's good enough that it doesn't matter. I can't really tell sometimes. 

 

However, if the last 10 years have shown us anything it is that the wheels tend to come off for Rory on the back 9 in majors. It is an extraordinarily consistent pattern for him. He makes sloppy mistakes like nuking it over the green on 15, gets tentative with the putter like on 16, and makes slightly boneheaded decisions like hitting driver on 18. 

 

I do believe Rory would be better off with a caddie that was more of a veteran down the stretch in majors and closing, a la Steve Williams, Bones, or Joe Lacava. Rory has never really been a closer at majors, even when he was winning them. He won 2 of them by 8 shots, and he won the '14 Open with a 6 shot lead heading into the final round and kinda sorta almost managed to blow it against perhaps two of the other worst closers of the last two generations (Sergio and Rickie). So he's won exactly one major in his life where he didn't steamroll the field. And he's blown... 5 at this point?

 

It's not to say his current caddie is inadequate or the caddie's fault. But the partnership is not producing the same results down the stretch in majors that it does leading up to that point. And since nothing else matters in Rory's career at this point than winning majors, I don't understand why he keeps on with that pattern. 

 

[Chunkitgood]

A golfer cannot blame anything on anyone but himself.  Not his clubs, not his caddy, not the weather, not divots or spike marks, his wife or his ex wife.

 

But the paradox is that the very golfers do always find something or someone else to blame, lest they stop believing in themselves.

 

It’s just like real life.

 

 

[LimaSierra]

13 hours ago, Pastit said:

 I love listening to criticism from commentators who’ve never been near winning a major. 

I mean using that logic you should never criticize a player then.

 

it’s silly though imo. I’m not a chef but I can tell when someone burnt my meal 

[TRS30]

Watching the Rory/Harry dynamic (on the course) it is obvious that he solely there to carry the clubs. Personally, I have never seen Harry read a putt, suggest a club, lay up/go for it etc (the drop on the 18th in Quail Hollow the exception and he was probably shi**** himself when he opened his mouth). 

I can only assume that this is what was agreed when he came on the bag. Not saying it is right or wrong, just this is what Rory wanted and is what Harry has done. This makes it impossible to blame or congratulate Harry for anything that Rory does on the course. 

[baitdragger]

Some of you all are funny.

 

BDC hit driver on 18 as we all know and damn near cost him the win.   Should that caddie be fired for not handing him a 3 wood?

 

on the whole a caddy can only do so much.  He can hand you the putter and tell you the correct line but it is still on the golfer to execute.   That never changes regardless of who is on the bag.   
 

I guess you fire the caddy if they didn’t abide by the agreement or if you just think it is time for a change.  Like a divorce sometimes things don’t work out and staying together is not best

[Pastit]

17 hours ago, bcflyguy1 said:

Chamblee can be good at what he does at times, but the self-indulgent tendency to get out over his skis is so often his undoing.

Eddie Pepperell chirping is even more comical. Eddie, nobody asked you and they'd have no reason to anyway.

Rory reversed the recent event at last year’s Scottish Open when he robbed Bob McIntyre on the last hole. 
 

I watch Rory because of his approach and find Nick Faldo type golf boring.  I suppose Rory would cry all the way to the bank with his 1.5 m bucks for his 2nd place in your Open. 

[Pastit]

5 hours ago, LimaSierra said:

I mean using that logic you should never criticize a player then.

 

it’s silly though imo. I’m not a chef but I can tell when someone burnt my meal 

I’ve done much caddying at elite amateur events, played a few team events and lost a final for a lot of money ( c 5k US$ ), a lot to me, when I duffed a 6i. I know about pressure - one’s usual failings come home to roost. You try to hit the best shots you can and win some; you lose some but you have to live with bad shots. 

[BobMorris]

19 hours ago, Murphy76 said:

 

A caddie is the sauce on the steak.  

 

If a steak is burned, no amount of sauce will save it.

 

...and if that steak is of high quality, no sauce needed...or even wanted.