More blatherings from Isaacbm about handicap...

[KYMAR]

Ok well we have no such agreement. Who?

[cardoustie]

I play a lot with a +3 or +4. That is a travelling big tourney cap. I think he has won the CDN mid-am 3 times and has won the over 40 division 6 or 7 times in a row

He shot 71-71 at the PGA stop up here .. Canadian Open at St.Georges. MC'd by 1 or 2 as C Peterssen was throwing down a 60

We played a fair bit this Fall and he can go 4 days in a row shooting 64-69 .... but still is miles short of the +8 capped PGA Tour guys

[Mr. Herbert]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1354912252' post='6034647']
Ok well we have no such agreement. Who?
[/quote]

Come on. You have to know by now that we don't insult Pepper by asking him to verify his many claims. You just have to accept that no matter what you've accomplished, he's done it bigger, better, faster, and with a better class of people.

[oregongolf]

[attachment=1444745:Untitled.jpg]

I mean, he could be better, right? Only one 58 on the year... slacking.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1354912030' post='6034629']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354911696' post='6034595']
I've never met a tour guy. I met a tour guide once.
[/quote]
What was his handicap?


[/quote]

Me. I asked too many questions...in Canadian.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='jon2' timestamp='1354918893' post='6035391']
[attachment=1444745:Untitled.jpg]

I mean, he could be better, right? Only one 58 on the year... slacking.
[/quote]

So his handicap is +7.5..... that's pretty good for a lefty!

[poizster]

I'm a +2, won my Cities Amateur this year, and would probably still need 2.5-3 strokes a side for it to be a good game with a mid level mini tour player.

In my 15 [b]tournament[/b] rounds this summer I shot:

68, 74, 76, 70, 72, 69, 80, 72, 73, 78, 67, 71, 76, 76, 74

Comes out to a scoring average of 73. The average rating/slope for these 15 rounds was 72.9/134. The highest was 76.5/148 and the lowest was 68.9/119.

A friend of mine Alex Williams beat the number one amateur player in the world Chris Williams at this years Public Links. Alex is an accomplished amateur player, had a great college career and won't consider going pro. Does he have the game? Perhaps, but he's not willing to take the chance of going into severe debt knowing the odds are so stacked against him. He works in a pro shop about 9 miles from my house.

[Obee]

[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1354915167' post='6034967']
I play a lot with a +3 or +4. That is a travelling big tourney cap. I think he has won the CDN mid-am 3 times and has won the over 40 division 6 or 7 times in a row

He shot 71-71 at the PGA stop up here .. Canadian Open at St.Georges. MC'd by 1 or 2 as C Peterssen was throwing down a 60

We played a fair bit this Fall and he can go 4 days in a row shooting 64-69 .... but still is miles short of the +8 capped PGA Tour guys
[/quote]

See, that's where I'd disagree with you. He's not "miles away," he's actually pretty darn close. If he MC'd by 1 or 2, then he probably beat dozens of legit PGA Tour pros that week. The guys we see every week on TV are playing solid golf, but every week there are a bunch of guys who miss the cut who make their living out there on tour, many of them former (and future) PGA Tour winners. If you make a cut or miss by one on the PGA Tour, then you had the game to beat a bunch of PGA Tour pros -- at least that week. Right??? :-)

[npham]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1354866920' post='6031477'] My home course is rated 75.5[/quote]

More name dropping for those of us in Calgary. I'm interested in course names and so forth if you feel so inclined going forward. Really great discussion on what it takes to make it.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1354912134' post='6034637']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1354911001' post='6034535']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1354910216' post='6034445']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1354867516' post='6031495']
A much more telling stat than handicap is tournament stroke average. Most plus 2 handicap golfers around Calgary have not shot in the 60's in a tournament at any point in the last 5 seasons.

At my club, we do both reg rounds and tourney rounds/mens league rounds and have two stroke averages. there are 22 players with handicaps under 1.2 at my course. The best one has a stroke average of 72.9 in tourney's and he's a plus 4. He's also the best player in Amateur golf in western Canada for the past 20 years. The worst player had a tourney stroke average of 79.5 and he's a 1.2 handicap.

One of my buddies that still plays the Can tour and missed getting his European Tour last year by a shot has a handicap of +8.5 in the computer at his course. His tourney stroke average is 69.2 this year.

So the guy that is one of the top ams year after year in western Canada is 3.7 shots per round worse than a guy that can't make a living playing mini tour golf.

And the guy that's a 1.2 handicap at our course is almost exactly 40 shot's worse per 4 round tournament than the struggling mini tour player.

Do what you want with the numbers but the point I'm trying to make is that [b]an average country club scratch is not close to being ready to go out on the tour....[/b]
[/quote]

I have been around a number of tour guys.
[/quote]

Who?
[/quote]

I am only posting this as you seem to have a short memory??? We agreed not to post to one another - which is best!
[/quote]

But I want to know who these tour pro buddies of yours are that you play with when you're not at your yacht club, ice climbing on the weekend, combat shooting, playing golf with Donald trump, racing bikes against lance Armstrong, running a large corporation, running your small business empire, and dining with the president.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='npham' timestamp='1354941088' post='6036981']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1354866920' post='6031477'] My home course is rated 75.5[/quote]

More name dropping for those of us in Calgary. I'm interested in course names and so forth if you feel so inclined going forward. Really great discussion on what it takes to make it.
[/quote]

I'll do it for him.

Country hills

[ALIF]

So I guess this thread is telling me to keep my regular job? Lol. Freaking insane thread. I just want to beat my brother in law on our weekend hacker get togethers. This thread hits home b/c I played h.s. golf with a guy who won 3 events on the buy.com tour and got the "battlefield promotion". Well, he couldn't make it at the big show. Just crazy how good you have to be.

[freddyottawa]

This thread has been a great read, lots of great information. It goes to show you just how far away almost all of us are from the talent level we see on the TV every week.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354911696' post='6034595']
I've never met a tour guy. I met a tour guide once.
[/quote]

Most people really don't understand the difference between being a professional tour guide and just someone who is really good at telling people facts about where they are.

I tried to make it in the tour guide racket and it's very difficult to even break even without financial backing. I mean i knew facts about every small town in N.A, historical venues etc. But when you are under the pressure of being on the bus, or leading people on a hike, knowing that you have a family to support, mortgage payments and etc. Suddenly it's easy to forget which geyser is which. If you want to make it the best thing to do is move to Florida, live in a small apartment with 5 other dudes, and just practice reciting facts all day to random groups of people on the street. That's the only way to get exposure to the pressure you'll face as a pro guide

People at home think that just because they can point out a few things here and there during outtings with their buddies, it means they could make it as a tour guide. They are [i]miles [/i]away

[mshills]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1354910216' post='6034445']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1354867516' post='6031495']
A much more telling stat than handicap is tournament stroke average. Most plus 2 handicap golfers around Calgary have not shot in the 60's in a tournament at any point in the last 5 seasons.

At my club, we do both reg rounds and tourney rounds/mens league rounds and have two stroke averages. there are 22 players with handicaps under 1.2 at my course. The best one has a stroke average of 72.9 in tourney's and he's a plus 4. He's also the best player in Amateur golf in western Canada for the past 20 years. The worst player had a tourney stroke average of 79.5 and he's a 1.2 handicap.

One of my buddies that still plays the Can tour and missed getting his European Tour last year by a shot has a handicap of +8.5 in the computer at his course. His tourney stroke average is 69.2 this year.

So the guy that is one of the top ams year after year in western Canada is 3.7 shots per round worse than a guy that can't make a living playing mini tour golf.

And the guy that's a 1.2 handicap at our course is almost exactly 40 shot's worse per 4 round tournament than the struggling mini tour player.

Do what you want with the numbers but the point I'm trying to make is that [b]an average country club scratch is not close to being ready to go out on the tour....[/b]
[/quote]

I have been around a number of tour guys, and would agree. Difference comes down to one's [u]ability to step up[/u] their game "under tour pressure". Some of the best golfers in the world are not on tour for that very reason.
[/quote]

Tour guys? The "quiet please" crowd marshal does not count, Pepper.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1354983545' post='6038157']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354911696' post='6034595']
I've never met a tour guy. I met a tour guide once.
[/quote]

Most people really don't understand the difference between being a professional tour guide and just someone who is really good at telling people facts about where they are.

I tried to make it in the tour guide racket and it's very difficult to even break even without financial backing. I mean i knew facts about every small town in N.A, historical venues etc. But when you are under the pressure of being on the bus, or leading people on a hike, knowing that you have a family to support, mortgage payments and etc. Suddenly it's easy to forget which geyser is which. If you want to make it the best thing to do is move to Florida, live in a small apartment with 5 other dudes, and just practice reciting facts all day to random groups of people on the street. That's the only way to get exposure to the pressure you'll face as a pro guide

People at home think that just because they can point out a few things here and there during outtings with their buddies, it means they could make it as a tour guide. They are [i]miles [/i]away
[/quote]

This is friggin genius!

[cdnglf]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1354983545' post='6038157']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354911696' post='6034595']
I've never met a tour guy. I met a tour guide once.
[/quote]

Most people really don't understand the difference between being a professional tour guide and just someone who is really good at telling people facts about where they are.

I tried to make it in the tour guide racket and it's very difficult to even break even without financial backing. I mean i knew facts about every small town in N.A, historical venues etc. But when you are under the pressure of being on the bus, or leading people on a hike, knowing that you have a family to support, mortgage payments and etc. Suddenly it's easy to forget which geyser is which. If you want to make it the best thing to do is move to Florida, live in a small apartment with 5 other dudes, and just practice reciting facts all day to random groups of people on the street. That's the only way to get exposure to the pressure you'll face as a pro guide

People at home think that just because they can point out a few things here and there during outtings with their buddies, it means they could make it as a tour guide. They are [i]miles [/i]away
[/quote]

I'm pretty good at speaking slowly and clearly. I've been to Florida and Yellowstone, and I know the names of some Beatles songs. If I take a year off, maybe go practice somewhere in Europe (like Montreal), getting a job as a senior tour guide will be a cinch.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1354987825' post='6038403']
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1354983545' post='6038157']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354911696' post='6034595']
I've never met a tour guy. I met a tour guide once.
[/quote]

Most people really don't understand the difference between being a professional tour guide and just someone who is really good at telling people facts about where they are.

I tried to make it in the tour guide racket and it's very difficult to even break even without financial backing. I mean i knew facts about every small town in N.A, historical venues etc. But when you are under the pressure of being on the bus, or leading people on a hike, knowing that you have a family to support, mortgage payments and etc. Suddenly it's easy to forget which geyser is which. If you want to make it the best thing to do is move to Florida, live in a small apartment with 5 other dudes, and just practice reciting facts all day to random groups of people on the street. That's the only way to get exposure to the pressure you'll face as a pro guide

People at home think that just because they can point out a few things here and there during outtings with their buddies, it means they could make it as a tour guide. They are [i]miles [/i]away
[/quote]

This is friggin genius!
[/quote]

Nice!

[farmer]

One of my friends was a legit +3, not a hard course, but still a +3. He won a spot in a Tight Lies level pro-am to be played on a course he knew very well. He shot 82 on his ball and the kid he played with shot 67 on a course where he had played one practice round. My friend had no illusions about playing professionally, but that was an eye opener.

[spooky]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1354983545' post='6038157']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354911696' post='6034595']
I've never met a tour guy. I met a tour guide once.
[/quote]

Most people really don't understand the difference between being a professional tour guide and just someone who is really good at telling people facts about where they are.

I tried to make it in the tour guide racket and it's very difficult to even break even without financial backing. I mean i knew facts about every small town in N.A, historical venues etc. But when you are under the pressure of being on the bus, or leading people on a hike, knowing that you have a family to support, mortgage payments and etc. Suddenly it's easy to forget which geyser is which. If you want to make it the best thing to do is move to Florida, live in a small apartment with 5 other dudes, and just practice reciting facts all day to random groups of people on the street. That's the only way to get exposure to the pressure you'll face as a pro guide

People at home think that just because they can point out a few things here and there during outtings with their buddies, it means they could make it as a tour guide. They are [i]miles [/i]away
[/quote]
You're a dreamer.

[Sean2]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1354983545' post='6038157']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354911696' post='6034595']
I've never met a tour guy. I met a tour guide once.
[/quote]

Most people really don't understand the difference between being a professional tour guide and just someone who is really good at telling people facts about where they are.

I tried to make it in the tour guide racket and it's very difficult to even break even without financial backing. I mean i knew facts about every small town in N.A, historical venues etc. But when you are under the pressure of being on the bus, or leading people on a hike, knowing that you have a family to support, mortgage payments and etc. Suddenly it's easy to forget which geyser is which. If you want to make it the best thing to do is move to Florida, live in a small apartment with 5 other dudes, and just practice reciting facts all day to random groups of people on the street. That's the only way to get exposure to the pressure you'll face as a pro guide

People at home think that just because they can point out a few things here and there during outtings with their buddies, it means they could make it as a tour guide. They are [i]miles [/i]away
[/quote]

Ausgezeichnet Jeff! Yes, this gentleman was very knowledgeable. It was in a cave in Virginia. He knew the difference between stalagmites and tites, and where the best b-b-que was.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1354994439' post='6038753']
One of my friends was a legit +3, not a hard course, but still a +3. He won a spot in a Tight Lies level pro-am to be played on a course he knew very well. He shot 82 on his ball and the kid he played with shot 67 on a course where he had played one practice round. My friend had no illusions about playing professionally, but that was an eye opener.
[/quote]

Again, I don't mean to imply that a +3 would be delusional to think that he could one day possible make it. I'm just saying that he would have to improve first. And he'd have to be able to demonstrate those skills in tournament play.

As to your story though, it's funny how often that can happen. A solid player at home falls to pieces when the pressure of tournament golf comes along.

Some people just aren't cut out for tournament golf.

In so many of these threads, there are guys that come on and say that anyone can do such and such with enough effort. I really believe that there is a quality that can't be taught to play at the highest level of tournament golf. It's something that can be learned, but it has to be learned through experience. You just can't read about it in a book or have someone tell you about it and then you have it.

And some guys learn it faster than others but there will always be some people that will never have it no matter how much they want it or how hard they try to find it.

I think it's incredibly admirable for an average golfer to get down to a low single or even a scratch/plus level. I think it's a possibility but that still doesn't necessarily carry over to tournaments.

[Chief Illiniwek]

When a +3 goes out and shoots an 80 in a tournament, it makes people think all +3's are miles away. Truth is the guy can't handle pressure. Then there are +3's who haven't practiced much who may have the potential to get there if they put in the effort.

I think most of us realize how truly great and refined a tour pro's game is. These threads are kind of like the threads that complain that all WRX'ers claim to carry 300+. Very few claim that and most of us realize that as well.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1355077928' post='6042227']
When a +3 goes out and shoots an 80 in a tournament, it makes people think all +3's are miles away. Truth is the guy can't handle pressure. Then there are +3's who haven't practiced much who may have the potential to get there if they put in the effort.

I think most of us realize how truly great and refined a tour pro's game is. These threads are kind of like the threads that complain that all WRX'ers claim to carry 300+. Very few claim that and most of us realize that as well.
[/quote]

i dont think most wrxers realize how good the best players in the world are, ive seen too many posts that suggest otherwise.

[MtlJeff]

The comments about playing under pressure and index are all very true too. Not all +3 or +1's or whatever are created equal. I'm sure the same goes for +7's aswell though i have limited exposure to golfers like that. But some guys play well under pressure and some don't

i've played with some of the top mid amateurs in Quebec. This year i played multiple times with 2 guys who finished top 5 in our mid am and these guys hovered most of the year around 0 to +1. In the mid am they beat guys with indexes of +3, +4 etc...because they shoot under their handicap and those guys shoot over theirs

I mentioned in another thread some of the parallel's between golf and kicking in football. There are hundreds of guys out there who have the ability to be an NFL placekicker. In practice it would be hard to differentiate between a guy who couldn't hack it in the CFL and Adam Vinatieri in his prime. But the list whittles down considerably when you factor in doing it in front of 60000 people with a game on the line. I'm sure it's the same for top golfers

[Night train]

It's a strange game!

When my oldest son played in college he had a teammate who was more talented than anyone I had ever seen. I thought he had a real shot at being a star on the PGA Tour............he's been struggling on the mini tours for ten years.

The other side of the coin.........I watched my son play college tournaments in the same foursome with Zach Johnson many times. A very nice polite young man..........who I wouldn't have given a chance in hell at being a PGA Tour star and a Masters winner. Very happy for Zach but I'm still in disbelief.

You just never know who has it!

[Obee]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1355077928' post='6042227']
When a +3 goes out and shoots an 80 in a tournament, it makes people think all +3's are miles away. Truth is the guy can't handle pressure. Then there are +3's who haven't practiced much who may have the potential to get there if they put in the effort.

I think most of us realize how truly great and refined a tour pro's game is. These threads are kind of like the threads that complain that all WRX'ers claim to carry 300+. Very few claim that and most of us realize that as well.
[/quote]

100% correct.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1355078489' post='6042253']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1355077928' post='6042227']
When a +3 goes out and shoots an 80 in a tournament, it makes people think all +3's are miles away. Truth is the guy can't handle pressure. Then there are +3's who haven't practiced much who may have the potential to get there if they put in the effort.

I think most of us realize how truly great and refined a tour pro's game is. These threads are kind of like the threads that complain that all WRX'ers claim to carry 300+. Very few claim that and most of us realize that as well.
[/quote]

i dont think most wrxers realize how good the best players in the world are, ive seen too many posts that suggest otherwise.
[/quote]

Like I said, I never met a tour player, let alone played golf with one, but I do play golf and watch a lot of golf on TV. Seeing what those guys do simply amazes me. The better I get at this game, the more I appreciate just how good those guys really are. It is [b]very[/b] impressive (for example, the last seven rounds I played I broke 80...and I'm really not that good). These guys, shooting in the 60's, on tough courses, from 7000+ yards, under all that pressure. Are you kidding me?

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1355078489' post='6042253']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1355077928' post='6042227']
When a +3 goes out and shoots an 80 in a tournament, it makes people think all +3's are miles away. Truth is the guy can't handle pressure. Then there are +3's who haven't practiced much who may have the potential to get there if they put in the effort.

I think most of us realize how truly great and refined a tour pro's game is. These threads are kind of like the threads that complain that all WRX'ers claim to carry 300+. Very few claim that and most of us realize that as well.
[/quote]

i dont think most wrxers realize how good the best players in the world are, ive seen too many posts that suggest otherwise.
[/quote]

It's silly to argue about, but I've also seen plenty of people who worship pros as Gods. Most of us are realists who are in the middle, it's just that the extremes are the ones that stand out, similar to the guys claiming 300+ carry averages.

[stryper]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1355083887' post='6042713']
[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1355077928' post='6042227']
When a +3 goes out and shoots an 80 in a tournament, it makes people think all +3's are miles away. Truth is the guy can't handle pressure. Then there are +3's who haven't practiced much who may have the potential to get there if they put in the effort.

I think most of us realize how truly great and refined a tour pro's game is. These threads are kind of like the threads that complain that all WRX'ers claim to carry 300+. Very few claim that and most of us realize that as well.
[/quote]

100% correct.
[/quote]

101% correct