Favorite Tour Picture

1404143454651

Comments

  • Dr. BlockDr. Block Members Posts: 610 ✭✭
    edited Jan 8, 2019 12:15am #1262
    The only caveat I would interject in this discussion is the nature of Augusta’s green complexes. It’s a unique challenge of that golf course that almost forces a certain amount of aggression with approach shots. Norman’s thought process in that final round must have been influenced by wanting to avoid very difficult lag putts.
  • vleismanvleisman Members Posts: 95 ✭✭
  • vleismanvleisman Members Posts: 95 ✭✭
    Saw John Daly blitz one off the tee on the 6th at Sun City, trying to drive the green. I had never seen anyone do that to a golf ball before, it was literally difficult to believe. That same day we stood in the landing area on 10 and wondered where his ball had gone. It landed about 3 seconds after we decided he'd blown it miles off line, at least 50 metres past where we were waiting.
  • iBanestoiBanesto Niclas Fasth Members Posts: 4,450 ✭✭
    "Be the right club, today!" - Hal Sutton.



    CBHNIKGUsAEbHUG.png



    hal-sutton-2000-960x560-_0001_00_PLA_0015.png
  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Masters! ClubWRX Posts: 17,697 ClubWRX
    edited Jan 8, 2019 8:05am #1267
    Obee wrote:

    emncaity wrote:
    Obee wrote:


    What's an example of gagging then?



    Do players ever choke?



    ****, I've choked so many times it's like a hobby for me. LOL




    Of course players choke (and "gag"). I'm not talking about degree, but about kind. Norman's collapse was a big one, no question. It's just that "choking" for most players below his level has to do with nerves, fear, feeling too small for the occasion and too out of one's element, etc. In Norman's case, it appears to me to have been more a case of not being able to adjust to a lower level of precision by expanding targets and margins of error in the way somebody like Nicklaus would have. It's a legitimate criticism that he should've had this worked out by that point in his career. You've got to learn to win tournaments all different ways if you're going to reach your potential as a great player, and guys like Nicklaus, Snead, Watson, Jones, Faldo, even Hogan occasionally had to figure out how to scratch out a win when they weren't at absolute top form.



    If you look at his final round at the British in '93, there was actually more pressure on him then, mostly because there were more people who could catch him. And he ended up shooting as great a final round in terms of ballstriking as you'll ever see. If he'd been prone to "gag" by that point in his career -- three years earlier -- why wouldn't he have done it then? Fact is, he just had the "it" that day, and because he did, it was just a matter of playing near-perfect golf. He didn't have to adjust to anything. He also played great golf in final rounds after that during the span when he was #1. In '96, it was just a matter of having no answer when the "it" wasn't there.



    If you look at the young Watson, you'll see an example of a pro who let nerves get the best of him repeatedly until he figured out how to handle them. There are plenty of others, of course.




    Also, if you had to say, was he consistently missing his approaches short and often a bit to the right? And then occasionally long and left? Where were his misses with his irons?




    In the water on 12, in the water on 16, lol, with other issues very evident especially on the back 9 - I take issue with the other poster's almost apologetic approach to his round. How hard is it to say someone choked - and what's the harm?



    Norman was one of the best players ever, and no matter how he wants to slice it, the issue came down to his mental toughness and he let the situation get trumped by his nerves. He didn't just need a course management lesson.



    Found this a few minutes ago, aside from some of the psycho babble, some revealing insights from Greg as well. http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/15091501/how-sports-science-explains-greg-norman-1996-masters-meltdown
  • jmckjmck Members Posts: 4,277 ✭✭
    emncaity wrote:

    dlygrisse wrote:

    emncaity wrote:

    norge5 wrote:


    He didn't shoot a 72. He gagged.






    As for "gagging," I'll try this one more time: If you go back and look at the round shot by shot, mostly he wasn't that far off. Nicklaus won hitting the ball like that at times. It was a matter of mismanagement. He didn't adjust to the fact that whatever he had on Thursday through Saturday wasn't there on Sunday, but he kept making decisions like it was still there. "Gagging" is one thing. Forcing the issue unwisely is different. With that same swing on a Masters Sunday, Nicklaus thinks his way around to a 72 and wins. Same for a guy like Watson and a few other #1 players. Which, as much as I appreciate Norman (especially at his best), is really the difference between him and the very short list of 1As.



    In short: Your "gagging" oversimplification is based on the false belief that great players can always play great, and if they don't, they're "choking." Sometimes it's just not all there. What the player does when it's not all there is what separates the top rung from the rest.




    Please stop. You are embarrassing yourself.




    If you have a substantive response, post it. I'm not interested in your unsupported judgment or declarations of victory, or whatever you're doing.




    Point is, you could easily start your very own thread titled "Norman's loss at Augusta in '96 wasn't actually a choke," instead of clogging up the thread titled "Favorite tour picture" with lengthy diatribe after diatribe semantically parsing what does and does not constitute a choke.
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,715 ClubWRX
    jmck wrote:

    emncaity wrote:

    dlygrisse wrote:

    emncaity wrote:

    norge5 wrote:


    He didn't shoot a 72. He gagged.






    As for "gagging," I'll try this one more time: If you go back and look at the round shot by shot, mostly he wasn't that far off. Nicklaus won hitting the ball like that at times. It was a matter of mismanagement. He didn't adjust to the fact that whatever he had on Thursday through Saturday wasn't there on Sunday, but he kept making decisions like it was still there. "Gagging" is one thing. Forcing the issue unwisely is different. With that same swing on a Masters Sunday, Nicklaus thinks his way around to a 72 and wins. Same for a guy like Watson and a few other #1 players. Which, as much as I appreciate Norman (especially at his best), is really the difference between him and the very short list of 1As.



    In short: Your "gagging" oversimplification is based on the false belief that great players can always play great, and if they don't, they're "choking." Sometimes it's just not all there. What the player does when it's not all there is what separates the top rung from the rest.




    Please stop. You are embarrassing yourself.




    If you have a substantive response, post it. I'm not interested in your unsupported judgment or declarations of victory, or whatever you're doing.




    Point is, you could easily start your very own thread titled "Norman's loss at Augusta in '96 wasn't actually a choke," instead of clogging up the thread titled "Favorite tour picture" with lengthy diatribe after diatribe semantically parsing what does and does not constitute a choke.




    I love when people get passionate about a subject, but I agree with you. Start a whole new thread, bud. I'll join you in it.



    If he was, indeed, missing short (it's been years since I watched the tape), well, that's what you do when you choke. You "hold on" to the club and stop releasing because ... well ... because you're scared. You don't let it go and therefore you miss short -- and usually a bit right (for right-handers).



    Then, sometimes, you will over-correct and send one long, left. But usually, when you're chokin', you're leavin' 'em short. Same things with chips and pitches and putts. Just listen to Johnny Miller, he knows it all too well: "short weak and right" he will talk about. Everything from putting to full shots, and everything in between.
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • jmckjmck Members Posts: 4,277 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:


    I love when people get passionate about a subject, but I agree with you. Start a whole new thread, bud. I'll join you in it.



    If he was, indeed, missing short (it's been years since I watched the tape), well, that's what you do when you choke. You "hold on" to the club and stop releasing because ... well ... because you're scared. You don't let it go and therefore you miss short -- and usually a bit right (for right-handers).



    Then, sometimes, you will over-correct and send one long, left. But usually, when you're chokin', you're leavin' 'em short. Same things with chips and pitches and putts. Just listen to Johnny Miller, he knows it all too well: "short weak and right" he will talk about. Everything from putting to full shots, and everything in between.




    Yeah, of course. And I can't believe I have to defend this to some sort of Choking Truther, but Norman choked his guts out in '96. Irons flared right, or smother hooked left, stubbed chips, a putting backstoke that grows long while the follow through grows short......His entire game, from tee to green, slowly falling into "holding on" as you say.....



    On and on. Dude was scared to win, and I can't put it any simpler than that.



    It's right there on the effing video. A choke as clear as day. Not like Bob Tway chipping in on him or any other Act Of God thing. Just a plain old choke when six ahead of one of the most relentless par-makers of all time.



    And yet we have to listen to it in this thread, a thread about, last I checked, PICTURES.
  • ChristosteroneChristosterone Reverse C ClubWRX Posts: 1,394 ClubWRX
    Back to the op...



    Norman had a gorgeous move....

    Yes, I’m biased because it was a reverse c worthy of Johnny Miller and Jack...



    But what a swing he had..



    -Chris
    Sixon Z745 Japanese Tour 430cc Tour AD-DJ7 XX
    Srixon zU45 (2,3) KBS Tour 130X White Pearl 2* up
    Srixon JDM Z945 (4-PW) KBS Tour 130X White Pearl 2* up
    Cleveland 588 DSG(52,56,60) KBS Tour 130X White Pearl 2* up
    dumbest putter ever...backstryke with tons of lead tape
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,715 ClubWRX
    jmck wrote:

    Obee wrote:


    I love when people get passionate about a subject, but I agree with you. Start a whole new thread, bud. I'll join you in it.



    If he was, indeed, missing short (it's been years since I watched the tape), well, that's what you do when you choke. You "hold on" to the club and stop releasing because ... well ... because you're scared. You don't let it go and therefore you miss short -- and usually a bit right (for right-handers).



    Then, sometimes, you will over-correct and send one long, left. But usually, when you're chokin', you're leavin' 'em short. Same things with chips and pitches and putts. Just listen to Johnny Miller, he knows it all too well: "short weak and right" he will talk about. Everything from putting to full shots, and everything in between.




    Yeah, of course. And I can't believe I have to defend this to some sort of Choking Truther, but Norman choked his guts out in '96. Irons flared right, or smother hooked left, stubbed chips, a putting backstoke that grows long while the follow through grows short......His entire game, from tee to green, slowly falling into "holding on" as you say.....



    On and on. Dude was scared to win, and I can't put it any simpler than that.



    It's right there on the effing video. A choke as clear as day. Not like Bob Tway chipping in on him or any other Act Of God thing. Just a plain old choke when six ahead of one of the most relentless par-makers of all time.



    And yet we have to listen to it in this thread, a thread about, last I checked, PICTURES.




    "Choking Truther" I blew coffee out of my nose!
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • HifadeHifade Sleepin' on the job. Slacker! Dayton, OHCharter Members Posts: 5,335 ✭✭
    Couple more recent ones that were pretty spectacular:



    PING G400 MAX 9* - MITZ TENSEI PRO ORANGE 
    CALLAWAY EPIC FLASH SZ 15* - HZRDUS 6.5 Smoke
    PING G410 10* - MITZ TENSEI PRO ORANGE
    TITLEIST 20* 815 Hybrid - Fuji HB 8.8 Tour Spec
    CALLAWAY '19 Smoke APEX 4-PW - KBS TOUR V "S" (HSx1)
    CALLAWAY MD4 48* S Grind - ORIGINAL PX Satin 5.5 (HSx1)
    CALLAWAY RAW MD4 54* X & 58* X - ORIGINAL PX Satin 5.5's (HSx1)
    ODYSSEY STROKE LAB EXO 7S - CUSTOM
    SCOTTY CAMERON 2001 3x Chocolate TOUR NEWPORT BEACH (1 of 3)
    BRIDGESTONE B330 Tour #1's
  • HifadeHifade Sleepin' on the job. Slacker! Dayton, OHCharter Members Posts: 5,335 ✭✭
    Here's a few I took while at the Old Course:



    PING G400 MAX 9* - MITZ TENSEI PRO ORANGE 
    CALLAWAY EPIC FLASH SZ 15* - HZRDUS 6.5 Smoke
    PING G410 10* - MITZ TENSEI PRO ORANGE
    TITLEIST 20* 815 Hybrid - Fuji HB 8.8 Tour Spec
    CALLAWAY '19 Smoke APEX 4-PW - KBS TOUR V "S" (HSx1)
    CALLAWAY MD4 48* S Grind - ORIGINAL PX Satin 5.5 (HSx1)
    CALLAWAY RAW MD4 54* X & 58* X - ORIGINAL PX Satin 5.5's (HSx1)
    ODYSSEY STROKE LAB EXO 7S - CUSTOM
    SCOTTY CAMERON 2001 3x Chocolate TOUR NEWPORT BEACH (1 of 3)
    BRIDGESTONE B330 Tour #1's
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,715 ClubWRX
    Hifade wrote:


    Here's a few I took while at the Old Course:







    I was absolutely blown away with the Old Course. Just stupid good, and in fantastic shape. Thought I was going to think it was "good," but not even close to great. Boy was I wrong....
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • howellhandmadehowellhandmade Members Posts: 736 ✭✭
    Hifade wrote:


    Couple more recent ones that were pretty spectacular:







    The look on Rory's face . . Feets, don't fail me now
  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Masters! ClubWRX Posts: 17,697 ClubWRX
    edited Jan 8, 2019 9:10pm #1277
    Obee wrote:

    Hifade wrote:


    Here's a few I took while at the Old Course:







    I was absolutely blown away with the Old Course. Just stupid good, and in fantastic shape. Thought I was going to think it was "good," but not even close to great. Boy was I wrong....




    I'm still blown away! For me it was more, I was sure it would be great, and from the moment I got permission to tee it up on the first tee it was great, but there was that little bit up until we played that just nagged at me with the "what if it doesn't measure up" from time to time. Best way I can describe it. Honestly, I was literally kind of in an intimidated trance until a gull swooped in to attack the sandwich I was gagging down just off the first tee, lol. Got a little bite out of my finger, drew blood, snapped me out of it and I wrapped some white tape around my finger and ready for battle! One of the best experiences ever we've had as a family. Only thing that would have made it better was my dad being able to go and I thought about him often that round (he is still with us, just couldn't make the trip because of not being able to leave my mom).



    Sorry, got a little carried away there, but Hifade and Obee I say X 10000!



    Indulge me, it's not a Tour pic, and resizing killed the quality, but certainly a Tour location.
  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Masters! ClubWRX Posts: 17,697 ClubWRX


    Back to the op...



    Norman had a gorgeous move....

    Yes, I'm biased because it was a reverse c worthy of Johnny Miller and Jack...



    But what a swing he had..



    -Chris




    I'm biased for the same reason, but I loved watching Norman play golf!
  • Darth PutterDarth Putter Members Posts: 4,756 ✭✭
    waialae.jpg
    swing is irrelevant, score is everything

    just say NO.... to practice swings
  • Steele47Steele47 Members Posts: 1,307 ✭✭


    waialae.jpg






    It's a mad mad mad mad mad World!
  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Masters! ClubWRX Posts: 17,697 ClubWRX
    Steele47 wrote:



    waialae.jpg






    It's a mad mad mad mad mad World!




    Perfect!
  • TerpFangolferTerpFangolfer Members Posts: 579 ✭✭
    edited Jan 9, 2019 7:27am #1282
    Hawkeye77 wrote:

    Obee wrote:

    Hifade wrote:


    Here's a few I took while at the Old Course:







    I was absolutely blown away with the Old Course. Just stupid good, and in fantastic shape. Thought I was going to think it was "good," but not even close to great. Boy was I wrong....




    I'm still blown away! For me it was more, I was sure it would be great, and from the moment I got permission to tee it up on the first tee it was great, but there was that little bit up until we played that just nagged at me with the "what if it doesn't measure up" from time to time. Best way I can describe it. Honestly, I was literally kind of in an intimidated trance until a gull swooped in to attack the sandwich I was gagging down just off the first tee, lol. Got a little bite out of my finger, drew blood, snapped me out of it and I wrapped some white tape around my finger and ready for battle! One of the best experiences ever we've had as a family. Only thing that would have made it better was my dad being able to go and I thought about him often that round (he is still with us, just couldn't make the trip because of not being able to leave my mom).



    Sorry, got a little carried away there, but Hifade and Obee I say X 10000!



    Indulge me, it's not a Tour pic, and resizing killed the quality, but certainly a Tour location.




    Add me to the list!

    Incredible - and can't wait to go back (already planning for 2020)
    TM R1
    TM Rbz Stage2 3w (15) & 3 hyb (19)
    Mizuno MP-64 4-Pw
    Mizuno MP-T5 50-7
    Titleist Vokey SM-4 54-8 & 58-12
    Ping TR 1966 Anser2
  • emncaityemncaity Members Posts: 182 ✭✭
    Dr. Block wrote:




    There is a lot to be learned from your assessment of that day. Nobody in golf has ever managed their B game moments nearly as efficiently as Jack. I also feel Tiger deserves mention in that regard.



    I don't think a lot of people really pick up on it or care to be analytical enough to appreciate the distinctions you're making, but - in my opinion- they are evident.




    Much appreciated. As much a fan of Tiger Woods as I am not -- especially his behavior and character problems -- I agree with you about him on this point. As much as I hate the idiotic "real golf started with Tiger" and "I'm bored with golf unless Tiger is playing" mentality, and also his humiliation of his wife and children with his personal behavior while making his living at a game where (to some of us, anyway) character still matters, it's also true at the same time that in terms of work ethic and mental toughness, nobody else in his generation was even close (which is a big part of my case as to why there's no real case that he's the GOAT, but that's another subject).



    Thing is, at some point it became apparent that he was about as good as Watson with short shots around the greens, and about as good as Nicklaus at his best with the putter. I never thought I'd say that about anybody, but it's just the truth. There were weeks where he went through four rounds while missing somewhere between two and zero putts from five feet or closer -- in 72 holes. As for the 6-to-15-footers, on weeks when he was seeing the line and feeling the speed, he was just miles ahead. You may know that both his father and Butch Harmon had him working on those tirelessly, on the rationale that there was no point getting so good at hitting the ball close if you're going to miss a lot of those putts. Might as well hit it to 30 or 40 feet and two-putt if you're going to do that. But it also had the effect of letting him make some ridiculous par saves on days when ballstriking was off. He knew that whatever trouble he was in, if he could just get it to that range, he had a better-than-average chance of making par, which allowed him to play smart in dire circumstances.



    So anyway...yeah, more often than other players, he could take a shaky ballstriking round and figure out a way to make a score that wouldn't kill his week. That's exactly what Norman needed that Sunday in '96. Norman always reminded me of a sports car that was exhilarating to drive and superfast when nothing was wrong with it, but had trouble keeping up with regular traffic when it was just a little out of tune. Lots of fun, but if you need to get to work and pick up the kids every single day reliably, it's not always so good for that. Same for when you need a boring 71 on a Masters Sunday.
  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Masters! ClubWRX Posts: 17,697 ClubWRX
    edited Jan 9, 2019 2:03pm #1284
    Oh brother, nothing boring about needing to shoot 1 under to win The Masters on Sunday.



    And this thread is about pics, not a treatise on Tiger.
  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Masters! ClubWRX Posts: 17,697 ClubWRX
  • emncaityemncaity Members Posts: 182 ✭✭
    Hifade wrote:


    Here's a few I took while at the Old Course:







    Nothing like inducing a hot burning envy out here. ;-)



    Thrilled you posted, and happy you got to go.



    Really puts the Road Hole in perspective, seeing how absurdly close the actual road is from ground level, and thinking about the kind of shot you have to hit in there in competition.
  • emncaityemncaity Members Posts: 182 ✭✭
    edited Jan 9, 2019 2:45pm #1288
    Obee wrote:


    I love when people get passionate about a subject, but I agree with you. Start a whole new thread, bud. I'll join you in it.



    If he was, indeed, missing short (it's been years since I watched the tape), well, that's what you do when you choke. You "hold on" to the club and stop releasing because ... well ... because you're scared. You don't let it go and therefore you miss short -- and usually a bit right (for right-handers).



    Then, sometimes, you will over-correct and send one long, left. But usually, when you're chokin', you're leavin' 'em short. Same things with chips and pitches and putts. Just listen to Johnny Miller, he knows it all too well: "short weak and right" he will talk about. Everything from putting to full shots, and everything in between.




    Maybe should start a new thread at this point. It's not a bad suggestion. For the first couple of rounds it was justifiable as reactions to photos, on the principle that since photos depict actual things, one might expect a thread full of photos to prompt comments about those things. But at some point it does get beyond that, yeah.



    Short right is the bane of a right-handed tournament player, for sure. But "nerves" aren't the only reason that happens. One really prominent reason is that the distances you got yesterday because you were crushing it, your timing was dead on, you were hitting it smack on the sweet spot, etc., are just not there today, and you never think "okay, I'm not hitting 5-iron 200 today, I'm hitting it 188 or 190, or whatever." If that's the problem, it's ego, not fear, and the same "give me the **** ball" ego that won Norman a lot of tournaments also killed him in specific situations. I just don't think there were any nerves there by that point. Not after winning the Open the way he did in '93 and the run for so long at #1 at that high a level of play.



    I'm not speaking completely out of hand here, btw. I was a plus-2 as an amateur and played for a while as a pro (at about +3-+4 level). I've been in that situation where you're trying to adjust to a serious difference in how far you're hitting the ball, when your timing is off and you're catching it a fraction on the toe (so you end up a little right as well as short), etc. It can be pretty dramatic how different it can be from one day to the next. But I absolutely guarantee you there were days when Nicklaus had 165 and hit 5-iron when he was absolutely dogging it, because whatever was behind the green was better than the water in front, and because he just didn't care what people thought about the club he was hitting. That is, as opposed to this disease that's set in over the past 20-30 years where especially younger pros seem obsessed with hitting the absolute shortest club they can possibly get to the target, and then swinging in all-out-max-out-crazytime mode every full shot. It's just nuts.



    There's a story about Nicklaus at the Byron Nelson (in Dallas) one year, when Nelson himself was still frequently in the broadcast booth. I think Nicklaus was at least in his mid-30s by then, but still plenty young enough to hit it a very long way. Player after player came to a slightly downhill par 3 that I think was around 180-190, and one after another hit 6-iron, with a few 5-irons, but mostly 6 (old lofts, of course), and they were coming out of their shoes to do it. Almost all were short, and those that weren't short were well off-line, usually with a big pull-hook out of trying to force that distance. Jack comes up, one announcer says he bets Jack will hit 6 or even 7, since he's Jack Nicklaus. Byron says something like "bet he doesn't, he'll probably hit a 4 and control it." Which is exactly what he did, fairly close.



    May not be precisely on point, since I don't recall anything about Jack hitting it bad that day in general, but the point is that he really didn't have any ego about stuff like that. If you watch how Norman lost his lead in '96, what you see is just no attempt at all to adjust to what was happening. It's like it was more about perfection on every shot than about winning the tournament even if you had to scrape it around looking unimpressive. Given that choice, anybody who knows Nicklaus knows he would've gone to any lengths to give himself a chance to win -- bunt it around, three-quarter swing it until he could find the middle of the face again, aim ridiculously away from all trouble, whatever it took. Same for guys like Watson and Trevino, Palmer, even Snead et al. It's possible that Norman's then-recent run at #1 at such a stunningly high level of ballstriking affected what happened that day, and I'm sure once the lead got down to a couple of shots the "oh my God I could actually lose this thing after all" thought set in. I just don't see that fear or nerves had a lot to do with getting to that point, given what he'd done in the three or four years preceding. What I saw was more bewilderment. More like a guy who didn't understand why he would be subject to human error, and who had no idea what to do about it.



    I think in the first post that started this side discussion, I mentioned that Norman used to talk about being able to feel a one- or two-yard difference off the face and in the air. If you think about what kinds of decisions that would tend to lead to in a competitive situation, and if you consider how near-perfectly he'd been hitting it up to the final round that week, to me that's a dead giveaway. He believed something that wasn't factually true but that in many situations might lead a person to act decisively and with confidence, and if the swing was good enough, the result would be close enough to that ideal. But on days when you have to aim for big targets and stop trying to look impressive because it's just not there that day, no matter how badly you want it to be there, no matter how big the stage is and how much you feel like you deserve it, no matter how much you want to show how superior you are on each individual shot, you need to acknowledge where your game is that day and try to make a score anyway. What I see in that final round is a guy who just insisted on trying to make a Ferrari out of a Ford, when a Ford would've been good enough if driven within its capabilities that day.
  • emncaityemncaity Members Posts: 182 ✭✭
    Hawkeye77 wrote:


    Oh brother, nothing boring about needing to shoot 1 under to win The Masters on Sunday.






    It's "boring" to somebody who's trying to shot 66 and be totally dominant and impressive, and perfect on every individual shot. Jack got accused of it all the time.
  • emncaityemncaity Members Posts: 182 ✭✭
    jmck wrote:






    Point is, you could easily start your very own thread titled "Norman's loss at Augusta in '96 wasn't actually a choke," instead of clogging up the thread titled "Favorite tour picture" with lengthy diatribe after diatribe semantically parsing what does and does not constitute a choke.




    No, the point was specifically an accusation that I was "embarrassing myself." Which I wasn't, and I'm not.



    I do agree at this point that it should be a separate thread, which is why I'm simply answering whoever has posted replies up to this point. No replies, no further discussion. If everybody agrees to do this separately, we will. What I'm not going to do, and what I have no obligation to do, is to leave an insulting post unanswered.
  • emncaityemncaity Members Posts: 182 ✭✭
    Hawkeye77 wrote:




    In the water on 12, in the water on 16, lol, with other issues very evident especially on the back 9 - I take issue with the other poster's almost apologetic approach to his round. How hard is it to say someone choked - and what's the harm?



    Norman was one of the best players ever, and no matter how he wants to slice it, the issue came down to his mental toughness and he let the situation get trumped by his nerves. He didn't just need a course management lesson.



    Found this a few minutes ago, aside from some of the psycho babble, some revealing insights from Greg as well. http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/15091501/how-sports-science-explains-greg-norman-1996-masters-meltdown




    I'll be happy to look at the ESPN thing, although some of their stuff is dubious at times. It's one source, no more and no less.



    I'm not saying he needed only a "course management lesson." I'm saying the collapse was due way more to ego and refusal to adapt and adjust than it was to "nerves." Refusal to accept human error. Nicklaus factored it in at all times. Norman thought every day was going to be like his best day, and he didn't adjust well when it wasn't. As I said in a separate response, like a sports car that's deadly fast and great to drive when everything is perfect, but when something's wrong with it, it can't match a grey Toyota in normal traffic.



    I'm not apologetic at all re that round. He blew it. The question is why he blew it. And no, it's not just semantic. To a competitive player, the distinction matters.



    But I would agree with other posters that this has now reached a point where it ought to be a separate thread, if it goes on at all. I'll answer everything that's in the inbox now, but aside from that I'm not introducing anything else new.
Sign In or Register to comment.