TM Twist Face Rumor

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  • jll62jll62 ClubWRX Posts: 2,144 ClubWRX
    Nixhex524 wrote:

    jll62 wrote:


    anth wrote:
    I think some people need to do some research on what it means to have a conflict of interest.



    His actions are seen as questionable when he bags out one OEM for their misleading marketing claims, but remains silent on the other OEM (who he has a financial arrangement with).




    It’s not a conflict of interest. His sponsorship by titleist is public not private. He isn’t hiding it. If my boss asks me to fabricate a bunch of documents I don’t have a “conflict of interest” because he controls my salary. I have an ethical issue. You can be paid by person X and not follow them blindly. What’s he going to do, recuse himself from equipment reviews?



    The question isn’t one of a conflict. It’s one of ethics. Just because someone pays you doesn’t mean you do everything you can however underhanded to help them. If his titleist sponsorship motivated these TM comments he has acted unethically, he’s not conflicted.



    A conflict of interest would be if he took cash from both TM and Titleist promising each to bash the other. You need two interests to have a conflict. He has one interest (titleist) and an ethical quandary (being fair to non-titleist OEMs). Different people can think different things about his ethics but relax on telling people to research. It’s not a CoI.




    You're absolutely right that it's not a legal conflict of interest, but it is a massive perception and credibility issue that will ultimately hurt his brand. That is what people are really saying.



    Even if Crossfield reviews non-Titleist products with the utmost neutrality and a lack of bias, doing things like tweeting out this "rumor" will be perceived in a completely different light now due to his Titleist sponsorship. His impartiality will immediately be called into question. It doesn't matter if that's right or not; perception is reality. Many people, including myself, attempted to point this out to him weeks ago on Instagram and received nothing more than a flippant response.



    For this specific tweet, based on his past history of dust-ups with TaylorMade, it's very hard to believe there was no malice behind the tweet. Otherwise, why even tweet out some unsubstantiated rumor?





    I'm not going to argue other peoples perceptions, but it has to be said that not everyone perceives things the same way, while you may think he will do damage to his brand, I personally do not. Plenty of people in here hated him before this sponsorship, and I'm sure it didn't help after. It seems like people trying to constantly convince others here how what he is doing is wrong, and it's not that black and white. Of course people are free to believe it but it doesn't make it true. Titleist knew who he was and what he did before signing him, and did so without expecting him to change the way he does things and they both deserve that benefit of the doubt since that is what they are claiming. If people choose not to, well, their choice.



    As, far as the "rumor" goes.... while it may seem like a shot at TM, how do we know this claim is completely false? There have been conflicting answers in this thread stating other possibilities as far as tour heads go, all it really takes is one head to pop up and that changes the game.... I don't think it's all that far fetched, though, watching Tiger drive the ball it seems the rumor would be a lie.... If Mark did hear this somewhere I think it should create some legitimate discussion. It's just easier to bash the guy since there is no way of actually knowing I guess...




    Yet you just did. Of course people don't perceive things the same way, but a lot of people have taken MC the way I have. This thread is evidence of that. I also know a lot of people are on MC's side because I used to see them all over social media.



    There is no alternate Twist Face on tour. We know it's false because a TaylorMade employee who would know responded directly to MC's tweet. Don't continue to keep the rumor going.
    TaylorMade M5 9.0, Tensei Orange V2 70TX, 44.5"
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  • QuasimotoQuasimoto Members Posts: 894 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hopefully this was not already pointed out.I fail to understand any benefit of a tour player using this type of face when the vast majority of their strikes are in the center portion of the face, and many are dead center.

    ???
    Srixon 785 9.5 HC HZRDUS 6.0
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  • rymail00rymail00 Members Posts: 6,705 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    jll62 wrote:

    Nixhex524 wrote:

    jll62 wrote:


    anth wrote:
    I think some people need to do some research on what it means to have a conflict of interest.



    His actions are seen as questionable when he bags out one OEM for their misleading marketing claims, but remains silent on the other OEM (who he has a financial arrangement with).




    It’s not a conflict of interest. His sponsorship by titleist is public not private. He isn’t hiding it. If my boss asks me to fabricate a bunch of documents I don’t have a “conflict of interest” because he controls my salary. I have an ethical issue. You can be paid by person X and not follow them blindly. What’s he going to do, recuse himself from equipment reviews?



    The question isn’t one of a conflict. It’s one of ethics. Just because someone pays you doesn’t mean you do everything you can however underhanded to help them. If his titleist sponsorship motivated these TM comments he has acted unethically, he’s not conflicted.



    A conflict of interest would be if he took cash from both TM and Titleist promising each to bash the other. You need two interests to have a conflict. He has one interest (titleist) and an ethical quandary (being fair to non-titleist OEMs). Different people can think different things about his ethics but relax on telling people to research. It’s not a CoI.




    You're absolutely right that it's not a legal conflict of interest, but it is a massive perception and credibility issue that will ultimately hurt his brand. That is what people are really saying.



    Even if Crossfield reviews non-Titleist products with the utmost neutrality and a lack of bias, doing things like tweeting out this "rumor" will be perceived in a completely different light now due to his Titleist sponsorship. His impartiality will immediately be called into question. It doesn't matter if that's right or not; perception is reality. Many people, including myself, attempted to point this out to him weeks ago on Instagram and received nothing more than a flippant response.



    For this specific tweet, based on his past history of dust-ups with TaylorMade, it's very hard to believe there was no malice behind the tweet. Otherwise, why even tweet out some unsubstantiated rumor?





    I'm not going to argue other peoples perceptions, but it has to be said that not everyone perceives things the same way, while you may think he will do damage to his brand, I personally do not. Plenty of people in here hated him before this sponsorship, and I'm sure it didn't help after. It seems like people trying to constantly convince others here how what he is doing is wrong, and it's not that black and white. Of course people are free to believe it but it doesn't make it true. Titleist knew who he was and what he did before signing him, and did so without expecting him to change the way he does things and they both deserve that benefit of the doubt since that is what they are claiming. If people choose not to, well, their choice.



    As, far as the "rumor" goes.... while it may seem like a shot at TM, how do we know this claim is completely false? There have been conflicting answers in this thread stating other possibilities as far as tour heads go, all it really takes is one head to pop up and that changes the game.... I don't think it's all that far fetched, though, watching Tiger drive the ball it seems the rumor would be a lie.... If Mark did hear this somewhere I think it should create some legitimate discussion. It's just easier to bash the guy since there is no way of actually knowing I guess...




    Yet you just did. Of course people don't perceive things the same way, but a lot of people have taken MC the way I have. This thread is evidence of that. I also know a lot of people are on MC's side because I used to see them all over social media.



    There is no alternate Twist Face on tour. We know it's false because a TaylorMade employee who would know responded directly to MC's tweet. Don't continue to keep the rumor going.






    Just cuz 1 guy says it's false who works for TM means it's false....



    The truth is no one knows. And if TM does know there are M3/4 heads without TwistFace their not dumb enough to say the tour guys are not playing the same clubs as amateurs. So to say that 1 guy says their same and that ends any and all discussion is unrealistic (and jll62 I'm not picking on you, your post was just the last post mentioning it).



    And I'm not a TM hater at all, I have a TM driver.



    Lastly this part of my post is pure speculation and I looked on USGA conforming list before posting it. But "IF" a M3/4 head did have a slightly different face shape (meaning a traditional nonTwistFace) my thought is it would not need it's own listing. If it's the same exact head shape with all the exact same stampings markings, and nothing is different but a hair difference of bulge and roll then it would be conforming.
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  • Nixhex524Nixhex524 ClubWRX Posts: 4,159 ClubWRX
    jll62 wrote:

    Nixhex524 wrote:

    jll62 wrote:


    anth wrote:
    I think some people need to do some research on what it means to have a conflict of interest.



    His actions are seen as questionable when he bags out one OEM for their misleading marketing claims, but remains silent on the other OEM (who he has a financial arrangement with).




    It’s not a conflict of interest. His sponsorship by titleist is public not private. He isn’t hiding it. If my boss asks me to fabricate a bunch of documents I don’t have a “conflict of interest” because he controls my salary. I have an ethical issue. You can be paid by person X and not follow them blindly. What’s he going to do, recuse himself from equipment reviews?



    The question isn’t one of a conflict. It’s one of ethics. Just because someone pays you doesn’t mean you do everything you can however underhanded to help them. If his titleist sponsorship motivated these TM comments he has acted unethically, he’s not conflicted.



    A conflict of interest would be if he took cash from both TM and Titleist promising each to bash the other. You need two interests to have a conflict. He has one interest (titleist) and an ethical quandary (being fair to non-titleist OEMs). Different people can think different things about his ethics but relax on telling people to research. It’s not a CoI.




    You're absolutely right that it's not a legal conflict of interest, but it is a massive perception and credibility issue that will ultimately hurt his brand. That is what people are really saying.



    Even if Crossfield reviews non-Titleist products with the utmost neutrality and a lack of bias, doing things like tweeting out this "rumor" will be perceived in a completely different light now due to his Titleist sponsorship. His impartiality will immediately be called into question. It doesn't matter if that's right or not; perception is reality. Many people, including myself, attempted to point this out to him weeks ago on Instagram and received nothing more than a flippant response.



    For this specific tweet, based on his past history of dust-ups with TaylorMade, it's very hard to believe there was no malice behind the tweet. Otherwise, why even tweet out some unsubstantiated rumor?





    I'm not going to argue other peoples perceptions, but it has to be said that not everyone perceives things the same way, while you may think he will do damage to his brand, I personally do not. Plenty of people in here hated him before this sponsorship, and I'm sure it didn't help after. It seems like people trying to constantly convince others here how what he is doing is wrong, and it's not that black and white. Of course people are free to believe it but it doesn't make it true. Titleist knew who he was and what he did before signing him, and did so without expecting him to change the way he does things and they both deserve that benefit of the doubt since that is what they are claiming. If people choose not to, well, their choice.



    As, far as the "rumor" goes.... while it may seem like a shot at TM, how do we know this claim is completely false? There have been conflicting answers in this thread stating other possibilities as far as tour heads go, all it really takes is one head to pop up and that changes the game.... I don't think it's all that far fetched, though, watching Tiger drive the ball it seems the rumor would be a lie.... If Mark did hear this somewhere I think it should create some legitimate discussion. It's just easier to bash the guy since there is no way of actually knowing I guess...




    Yet you just did. Of course people don't perceive things the same way, but a lot of people have taken MC the way I have. This thread is evidence of that. I also know a lot of people are on MC's side because I used to see them all over social media.



    There is no alternate Twist Face on tour. We know it's false because a TaylorMade employee who would know responded directly to MC's tweet. Don't continue to keep the rumor going.




    Would you expect a TM employee to say any different? LOL



    Plus I am not saying he is or isn't lying, all I am saying is there should be room for discussion.



    What I meant by that was, I am not going to tell you you're wrong for believing what you want, I just don't see it the same way. And yes, many agree with you.... many don't. If there is definitive proof one way or another, I for one, would love to see it. Until then we are just left to speculate if we so choose to. And if Mark is wrong, well, then he should have egg on his face, but if he isn't then that's a whole other avenue...
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  • jlebeane13jlebeane13 Members Posts: 334 ✭✭
    This maybe a dumb question but why would they have to have a driver with a less twisted to zero twisted face on the conforming list?

    You can alter the loft and lie on a club without having to have each specific club on the list, why could you not have the same twist face driver with less to zero twist in the face.

    It's still named a twist face driver, it's just with reduced twist.

    Just throwing that out there.

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  • CincyJCKCincyJCK Members Posts: 75 ✭✭✭
    Quasimoto wrote:


    Hopefully this was not already pointed out.I fail to understand any benefit of a tour player using this type of face when the vast majority of their strikes are in the center portion of the face, and many are dead center.

    ???




    Because every little bit counts?



    If I understand the tech correctly, there wouldn’t be any adverse effects on center strikes, but it would provide a small benefit on off center contact. Maybe that would be 1-2 more fairways found over 4 rounds for guys that good, I’m not sure. But if it could increase my accuracy (even marginally) while not harming distance, I would game it
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  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,487 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    jll62 wrote:
    Nixhex524 wrote:

    jll62 wrote:


    anth wrote:
    I think some people need to do some research on what it means to have a conflict of interest.



    His actions are seen as questionable when he bags out one OEM for their misleading marketing claims, but remains silent on the other OEM (who he has a financial arrangement with).




    It’s not a conflict of interest. His sponsorship by titleist is public not private. He isn’t hiding it. If my boss asks me to fabricate a bunch of documents I don’t have a “conflict of interest” because he controls my salary. I have an ethical issue. You can be paid by person X and not follow them blindly. What’s he going to do, recuse himself from equipment reviews?



    The question isn’t one of a conflict. It’s one of ethics. Just because someone pays you doesn’t mean you do everything you can however underhanded to help them. If his titleist sponsorship motivated these TM comments he has acted unethically, he’s not conflicted.



    A conflict of interest would be if he took cash from both TM and Titleist promising each to bash the other. You need two interests to have a conflict. He has one interest (titleist) and an ethical quandary (being fair to non-titleist OEMs). Different people can think different things about his ethics but relax on telling people to research. It’s not a CoI.




    You're absolutely right that it's not a legal conflict of interest, but it is a massive perception and credibility issue that will ultimately hurt his brand. That is what people are really saying.



    Even if Crossfield reviews non-Titleist products with the utmost neutrality and a lack of bias, doing things like tweeting out this "rumor" will be perceived in a completely different light now due to his Titleist sponsorship. His impartiality will immediately be called into question. It doesn't matter if that's right or not; perception is reality. Many people, including myself, attempted to point this out to him weeks ago on Instagram and received nothing more than a flippant response.



    For this specific tweet, based on his past history of dust-ups with TaylorMade, it's very hard to believe there was no malice behind the tweet. Otherwise, why even tweet out some unsubstantiated rumor?





    I'm not going to argue other peoples perceptions, but it has to be said that not everyone perceives things the same way, while you may think he will do damage to his brand, I personally do not. Plenty of people in here hated him before this sponsorship, and I'm sure it didn't help after. It seems like people trying to constantly convince others here how what he is doing is wrong, and it's not that black and white. Of course people are free to believe it but it doesn't make it true. Titleist knew who he was and what he did before signing him, and did so without expecting him to change the way he does things and they both deserve that benefit of the doubt since that is what they are claiming. If people choose not to, well, their choice.



    As, far as the "rumor" goes.... while it may seem like a shot at TM, how do we know this claim is completely false? There have been conflicting answers in this thread stating other possibilities as far as tour heads go, all it really takes is one head to pop up and that changes the game.... I don't think it's all that far fetched, though, watching Tiger drive the ball it seems the rumor would be a lie.... If Mark did hear this somewhere I think it should create some legitimate discussion. It's just easier to bash the guy since there is no way of actually knowing I guess...




    Yet you just did. Of course people don't perceive things the same way, but a lot of people have taken MC the way I have. This thread is evidence of that. I also know a lot of people are on MC's side because I used to see them all over social media.



    There is no alternate Twist Face on tour. We know it's false because a TaylorMade employee who would know responded directly to MC's tweet. Don't continue to keep the rumor going.




    So, to summarize:



    1. You think crossfield being paid by titleist makes him less credible.



    2. You are certain the rumor is false because a taylormade employee said so.



    Got it.
    Ping g30 driver, various shafts
    Adams tight lies 3 wood
    rest is up for debate
  • noodle3872noodle3872 Chilliwack B.C. CanadaMembers Posts: 2,765 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Conspiracy theories, gotta love them! So a TM Tour Rep says the non-Twist Face rumour isn’t true and the USGA Equipment list agrees with the TM Rep but here we are.



    Can we find some time to duscuss discuss how Muira forged Tiger’s Nike irons (including the TGR irons) despite a Nike employee that worked at the Oven stating it wasn’t true.



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  • tinmantinman Members Posts: 2,935 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I wouldn’t buy anything taylormade anyway...are they a real golf company?
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  • getitdailygetitdaily Members Posts: 2,443 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    noodle3872 wrote:


    Conspiracy theories, gotta love them! So a TM Tour Rep says the non-Twist Face rumour isn’t true and the USGA Equipment list agrees with the TM Rep but here we are.



    Can we find some time to duscuss discuss how Muira forged Tiger’s Nike irons (including the TGR irons) despite a Nike employee that worked at the Oven stating it wasn’t true.




    You think TM would allow the rumor to proliferate? Twist face is their lifeline right now. If it got out that the pros aren't using it then sales would suffer...regardless of whether twist face is intended to suit pros...
  • awtryau89awtryau89 Members Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Feb 16, 2018 #222
    I spoke to a pro who worked at the Reynold Plantation kingdom for quite a few years. He is still on staff with TM. I asked him this question everyone is making a big deal about. He said all of the new drivers have Twist Face. There is not a separate version that has a different face tech in it. Even so he stated that manufacturing variances will always be a factor. His point was just like in the past where a pro could go to the Tour Van and request a head that was more open or closed, they should be able to do the same here. Basically they can measure the true loft at center, high toe and low heel and have those numbers for their staff. So the really real is if Tiger wants his driver to be 10.5* at center and 10.8* on high toe, he can have it. I guess this is semantics really but there are no versions, only differences in manufacturing variances. It will be interesting to see when Tour Issue heads start popping up if they have these additional measurements on the stickers.
  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,487 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Feb 16, 2018 #223
    "I heard a rumor that Crossfield being sponsored by Titleist has colored all his reviews and he isn't credible now. Has anyone else heard this rumor?"



    -Everyone in this thread, while complaining about people rumor-mongering other people


    awtryau89 wrote:


    I spoke to a pro who worked at the Reynold Plantation kingdom for quite a few years. He is still on staff with TM. I asked him this question everyone is making a big deal about. He said all of the new drivers have Twist Face. There is not a separate version that has a different face tech in it. Even so he stated that manufacturing variances will always be a factor. His point was just like in the past where a pro could go to the Tour Van and request a head that was more open or closed, they should be able to do the same here. Basically they can measure the true loft at center, high toe and low heel and have those numbers for their staff. So the really real is if Tiger wants his driver to be 10.5* at center and 10.8* on high toe, he can have it. I guess this is semantics really but there are no versions, only differences in manufacturing variances. It will be interesting to see when Tour Issue heads start popping up if they have these additional measurements on the stickers.




    I've had the opportunity to compare my equipment to a sponsored pro with similar equipment twice. Once was a set of Apex Pro irons to a web.com player. They had the same graphics but they were completely different clubs - his were much more blade-like than my out of Edwin Watts version (thinner almost everywhere and heavier). The second time was a set of two Mack Daddy forged wedges in standard grind. They were identical, even to weight in terms of what i could feel with my hands. So it completely depends. They'll customize anything.



    Anyone who honestly thinks they are playing the same stuff you buy in Dick's is nuts. Some are, some arn't. As I've said in other threads, I played at a "Prince School" in college. I played a Wilson Profile painted like a Prince Thunderstick.
    Ping g30 driver, various shafts
    Adams tight lies 3 wood
    rest is up for debate
  • Man_O_WarMan_O_War Members Posts: 2,879 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    now i know why Tiger is spraying his balls. he should go get one from Dicks
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  • TrueWRXTrueWRX Members Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭✭✭✭


    "I heard a rumor that Crossfield being sponsored by Titleist has colored all his reviews and he isn't credible now. Has anyone else heard this rumor?"



    -Everyone in this thread, while complaining about people rumor-mongering other people


    awtryau89 wrote:


    I spoke to a pro who worked at the Reynold Plantation kingdom for quite a few years. He is still on staff with TM. I asked him this question everyone is making a big deal about. He said all of the new drivers have Twist Face. There is not a separate version that has a different face tech in it. Even so he stated that manufacturing variances will always be a factor. His point was just like in the past where a pro could go to the Tour Van and request a head that was more open or closed, they should be able to do the same here. Basically they can measure the true loft at center, high toe and low heel and have those numbers for their staff. So the really real is if Tiger wants his driver to be 10.5* at center and 10.8* on high toe, he can have it. I guess this is semantics really but there are no versions, only differences in manufacturing variances. It will be interesting to see when Tour Issue heads start popping up if they have these additional measurements on the stickers.




    I've had the opportunity to compare my equipment to a sponsored pro with similar equipment twice. Once was a set of Apex Pro irons to a web.com player. They had the same graphics but they were completely different clubs - his were much more blade-like than my out of Edwin Watts version (thinner almost everywhere and heavier). The second time was a set of two Mack Daddy forged wedges in standard grind. They were identical, even to weight in terms of what i could feel with my hands. So it completely depends. They'll customize anything.



    Anyone who honestly thinks they are playing the same stuff you buy in Dick's is nuts. Some are, some arn't. As I've said in other threads, I played at a "Prince School" in college. I played a Wilson Profile painted like a Prince Thunderstick.
    My buddy actually saw DJ at Dicks buying his driver. Paid full price...He told him to try out DD for a better deal...At least thats the rumor
  • Nixhex524Nixhex524 ClubWRX Posts: 4,159 ClubWRX
    awtryau89 wrote:


    I spoke to a pro who worked at the Reynold Plantation kingdom for quite a few years. He is still on staff with TM. I asked him this question everyone is making a big deal about. He said all of the new drivers have Twist Face. There is not a separate version that has a different face tech in it. Even so he stated that manufacturing variances will always be a factor. His point was just like in the past where a pro could go to the Tour Van and request a head that was more open or closed, they should be able to do the same here. Basically they can measure the true loft at center, high toe and low heel and have those numbers for their staff. So the really real is if Tiger wants his driver to be 10.5* at center and 10.8* on high toe, he can have it. I guess this is semantics really but there are no versions, only differences in manufacturing variances. It will be interesting to see when Tour Issue heads start popping up if they have these additional measurements on the stickers.




    This leads me to believe that there could be, not that there is, but could be truth to what Crossfield is saying then. They can test for variances and if a pro requests a driver with as little twist face as possible, or none for that matter, it might actually exist. I would imagine that even in retail heads the faces are not all exact, could be close to even Tour variances by pure chance.
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  • getitdailygetitdaily Members Posts: 2,443 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Nixhex524 wrote:

    awtryau89 wrote:


    I spoke to a pro who worked at the Reynold Plantation kingdom for quite a few years. He is still on staff with TM. I asked him this question everyone is making a big deal about. He said all of the new drivers have Twist Face. There is not a separate version that has a different face tech in it. Even so he stated that manufacturing variances will always be a factor. His point was just like in the past where a pro could go to the Tour Van and request a head that was more open or closed, they should be able to do the same here. Basically they can measure the true loft at center, high toe and low heel and have those numbers for their staff. So the really real is if Tiger wants his driver to be 10.5* at center and 10.8* on high toe, he can have it. I guess this is semantics really but there are no versions, only differences in manufacturing variances. It will be interesting to see when Tour Issue heads start popping up if they have these additional measurements on the stickers.




    This leads me to believe that there could be, not that there is, but could be truth to what Crossfield is saying then. They can test for variances and if a pro requests a driver with as little twist face as possible, or none for that matter, it might actually exist. I would imagine that even in retail heads the faces are not all exact, could be close to even Tour variances by pure chance.




    It also indicates that slight changes in loft in the twist face sections don't have to be a version on the USGA conforming list. I guarantee that if a tour pro was getting bad results from twist face they're going to have it changed so they still play the model...
  • rymail00rymail00 Members Posts: 6,705 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Nixhex524 wrote:

    awtryau89 wrote:


    I spoke to a pro who worked at the Reynold Plantation kingdom for quite a few years. He is still on staff with TM. I asked him this question everyone is making a big deal about. He said all of the new drivers have Twist Face. There is not a separate version that has a different face tech in it. Even so he stated that manufacturing variances will always be a factor. His point was just like in the past where a pro could go to the Tour Van and request a head that was more open or closed, they should be able to do the same here. Basically they can measure the true loft at center, high toe and low heel and have those numbers for their staff. So the really real is if Tiger wants his driver to be 10.5* at center and 10.8* on high toe, he can have it. I guess this is semantics really but there are no versions, only differences in manufacturing variances. It will be interesting to see when Tour Issue heads start popping up if they have these additional measurements on the stickers.




    This leads me to believe that there could be, not that there is, but could be truth to what Crossfield is saying then. They can test for variances and if a pro requests a driver with as little twist face as possible, or none for that matter, it might actually exist. I would imagine that even in retail heads the faces are not all exact, could be close to even Tour variances by pure chance.




    Yeah that's kinda like I was trying to say but he definitely said much better. All the TI heads have every spec of Face angle, lie etc. I'm sure they can find a way to measure heads that may have more less TwistFace. We all see TI heads with large variances specs in the same stamped loft. I'm sure they can find a way to measure all the different specs of the face if a staff player really wanted a certain amount of TwistFace or not.
    rymail00 2018 WITB http://www.golfwrx.c...witb-pic-heavy/

    TM M1 430 8.5* Tour Issue w/ Tensei CK Pro White 70s (with high gloss SLDR finish from Continental Golf)
    Titleist 917 F3 15* D+ 80s
    Titleist 915H 21* D+ 90s
    Titleist 915H 24* D+ 90s
    Titleist AP2 718, 5-50* Steelfiber i95s
    Scratch TD DW 54* 58* KBS HiRev
    Odyssey Metal X Milled 330M (current gamer)

    Ping Scottsdale TR B60
    TP Mills Heritage 349g
    Byron Morgan 006 355g
    Byron Morgan Makers Proof #4/5 solid copper
    C&L CL1 368g
    Scotty Cameron Newport Studio Style
  • noodle3872noodle3872 Chilliwack B.C. CanadaMembers Posts: 2,765 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Feb 16, 2018 #229
    Typical TI M4 sticker.
    Taylormade M6 driver MCA Tensei CK Pro Blue 60 S Flex
    Taylormade M6 fairway wood MCA Tensei CK Pro Blue 70 S Flex
    Taylormade M4 19° hybrid MCA OT Tour Hybrid 80 S Flex
    Taylormade M4 22° hybrid MCA OT Tour Hybrid 90 S Flex
    Mizuno JPX 919 Hot Metal Pro 5-PW Modus3 Tour 105 S flex
    Mizuno S18 Gunmetal Wedges 50-07, 54-12, 58-08 and 62-08 Modus3 115 Wedge
    Scotty Cameron Futura 5M H17 Jet Setter 
    Scotty Cameron Futura 5.5M
    Scotty Cameron Futura 7M
    Titleist Yellow Pro V1
  • rymail00rymail00 Members Posts: 6,705 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Feb 16, 2018 #230
    noodle3872 wrote:


    Typical TI M4 sticker.




    Way more specs than what came on my M1 2016



    Just guessing here...

    HT: high toe, 3.3*, so +3,3* more loft on high toe of face

    CT: center toe, just toe side of sweet spot +3*

    CF: center face 0*, flat

    CH: center heel, just inside of sweet spot -2.5* down from center strike

    LH: low heel, -3.2* down from center



    But does anyone know what RA1, and RA2 mean? Those specs have always been listed, would have to do something with radios of some part of the face? I've never found the answer.....
    rymail00 2018 WITB http://www.golfwrx.c...witb-pic-heavy/

    TM M1 430 8.5* Tour Issue w/ Tensei CK Pro White 70s (with high gloss SLDR finish from Continental Golf)
    Titleist 917 F3 15* D+ 80s
    Titleist 915H 21* D+ 90s
    Titleist 915H 24* D+ 90s
    Titleist AP2 718, 5-50* Steelfiber i95s
    Scratch TD DW 54* 58* KBS HiRev
    Odyssey Metal X Milled 330M (current gamer)

    Ping Scottsdale TR B60
    TP Mills Heritage 349g
    Byron Morgan 006 355g
    Byron Morgan Makers Proof #4/5 solid copper
    C&L CL1 368g
    Scotty Cameron Newport Studio Style
  • getitdailygetitdaily Members Posts: 2,443 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Feb 16, 2018 #231
    noodle3872 wrote:


    Typical TI M4 sticker.




    So what are the limits of adjusting heel and toe loft before the driver is no longer conforming?



    Let's see more m3/4 tour stickers...
  • rymail00rymail00 Members Posts: 6,705 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    getitdaily wrote:

    noodle3872 wrote:


    Typical TI M4 sticker.




    So what are the limits of adjusting heel and toe loft before the driver is no longer conforming?



    Let's see more m3/4 tour stickers...






    My guess it's just done through building many, many mass produced club heads where variances just happen during production, like every OEM has variances in production. I'm guessing now with Twistface having untraditional roll and budge they now have added this to their normal spec sticker.
    rymail00 2018 WITB http://www.golfwrx.c...witb-pic-heavy/

    TM M1 430 8.5* Tour Issue w/ Tensei CK Pro White 70s (with high gloss SLDR finish from Continental Golf)
    Titleist 917 F3 15* D+ 80s
    Titleist 915H 21* D+ 90s
    Titleist 915H 24* D+ 90s
    Titleist AP2 718, 5-50* Steelfiber i95s
    Scratch TD DW 54* 58* KBS HiRev
    Odyssey Metal X Milled 330M (current gamer)

    Ping Scottsdale TR B60
    TP Mills Heritage 349g
    Byron Morgan 006 355g
    Byron Morgan Makers Proof #4/5 solid copper
    C&L CL1 368g
    Scotty Cameron Newport Studio Style
  • noodle3872noodle3872 Chilliwack B.C. CanadaMembers Posts: 2,765 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Sticker from a M2.



    Taylormade M6 driver MCA Tensei CK Pro Blue 60 S Flex
    Taylormade M6 fairway wood MCA Tensei CK Pro Blue 70 S Flex
    Taylormade M4 19° hybrid MCA OT Tour Hybrid 80 S Flex
    Taylormade M4 22° hybrid MCA OT Tour Hybrid 90 S Flex
    Mizuno JPX 919 Hot Metal Pro 5-PW Modus3 Tour 105 S flex
    Mizuno S18 Gunmetal Wedges 50-07, 54-12, 58-08 and 62-08 Modus3 115 Wedge
    Scotty Cameron Futura 5M H17 Jet Setter 
    Scotty Cameron Futura 5.5M
    Scotty Cameron Futura 7M
    Titleist Yellow Pro V1
  • QuasimotoQuasimoto Members Posts: 894 ✭✭✭✭✭
    CincyJCK wrote:

    Quasimoto wrote:


    Hopefully this was not already pointed out.I fail to understand any benefit of a tour player using this type of face when the vast majority of their strikes are in the center portion of the face, and many are dead center.

    ???




    Because every little bit counts?



    If I understand the tech correctly, there wouldn’t be any adverse effects on center strikes, but it would provide a small benefit on off center contact. Maybe that would be 1-2 more fairways found over 4 rounds for guys that good, I’m not sure. But if it could increase my accuracy (even marginally) while not harming distance, I would game it




    Nope, not buying it. I just read TM'S marketing for this face and it specifically points out the benefit is obtained when a golfer hits it high on the toe and low on the heel. For a professional, that is rare. Even accomplished low HC players won't see much out of this.
    Srixon 785 9.5 HC HZRDUS 6.0
    Titleist TS3 13.5 75g S EvenFlo
    Taylormade GAPR Hi 3,4,5 70g KBS R
    Srixon z785 6-AW Nippon Tour 105 R
    Titleist SM7 54 & 58 Nippon Tour 105 S
    Odyssey Stroke Labs #7,
    BStone BX, Titleist AVX
  • CincyJCKCincyJCK Members Posts: 75 ✭✭✭
    Quasimoto wrote:

    CincyJCK wrote:

    Quasimoto wrote:


    Hopefully this was not already pointed out.I fail to understand any benefit of a tour player using this type of face when the vast majority of their strikes are in the center portion of the face, and many are dead center.

    ???




    Because every little bit counts?



    If I understand the tech correctly, there wouldn’t be any adverse effects on center strikes, but it would provide a small benefit on off center contact. Maybe that would be 1-2 more fairways found over 4 rounds for guys that good, I’m not sure. But if it could increase my accuracy (even marginally) while not harming distance, I would game it




    Nope, not buying it. I just read TM'S marketing for this face and it specifically points out the benefit is obtained when a golfer hits it high on the toe and low on the heel. For a professional, that is rare. Even accomplished low HC players won't see much out of this.




    Does the sticker on the M4 above contradict the marketing info? Seems to have some twist to the center toe/heel sections as well, not just high toe/heel.



    You’re right that pros aren’t missing the sweet spot the same way that I do, but again, every little bit counts, especially if there is no detriment when the contact is on the sweet spot
    915 D3
    TM 300 Tour 15*
    Nike VR Pro 18*
    Titleist 690.MB 3-9 or Ping G25 4-PW
    Vokey SM4 48, Cobra Tour Trusty 54, Vokey SM5 58
    Ping Zing2
  • rymail00rymail00 Members Posts: 6,705 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Feb 16, 2018 #236
    CincyJCK wrote:

    Quasimoto wrote:

    CincyJCK wrote:

    Quasimoto wrote:


    Hopefully this was not already pointed out.I fail to understand any benefit of a tour player using this type of face when the vast majority of their strikes are in the center portion of the face, and many are dead center.

    ???




    Because every little bit counts?



    If I understand the tech correctly, there wouldn’t be any adverse effects on center strikes, but it would provide a small benefit on off center contact. Maybe that would be 1-2 more fairways found over 4 rounds for guys that good, I’m not sure. But if it could increase my accuracy (even marginally) while not harming distance, I would game it




    Nope, not buying it. I just read TM'S marketing for this face and it specifically points out the benefit is obtained when a golfer hits it high on the toe and low on the heel. For a professional, that is rare. Even accomplished low HC players won't see much out of this.




    Does the sticker on the M4 above contradict the marketing info? Seems to have some twist to the center toe/heel sections as well, not just high toe/heel.



    You’re right that pros aren’t missing the sweet spot the same way that I do, but again, every little bit counts, especially if there is no detriment when the contact is on the sweet spot




    Actually I was bored earlier and watching golf youtube vids and stumbled on a TM TwistFace video where their head guy Bazzel (I think his name was) was explaining it to Rory, Day, DJ, Rahm and they were showing miss hits on the high/low heel/toe. How the high toe may draw 8 yards, but with the new tech may only draw 1-2 yards. Even the miss hits that they seem to show where Twist face calms down the gear affect, from their explanation we're not talking way out on the toe, the large miss hits they are showing are only like .5" at most around the sweet spot. So to say the pros would not benefit from the tech I'm going to disagree with just because it's not as far off the sweet as we may think, for pros get the benefit from the "TwistFace tech".



    I'll see if I can find the video that goes in depth on how they present the tech.



    EDIT: Ok found it. I can't lie the marketing does make sense.



    https://youtu.be/oEtCVnORhSA
    rymail00 2018 WITB http://www.golfwrx.c...witb-pic-heavy/

    TM M1 430 8.5* Tour Issue w/ Tensei CK Pro White 70s (with high gloss SLDR finish from Continental Golf)
    Titleist 917 F3 15* D+ 80s
    Titleist 915H 21* D+ 90s
    Titleist 915H 24* D+ 90s
    Titleist AP2 718, 5-50* Steelfiber i95s
    Scratch TD DW 54* 58* KBS HiRev
    Odyssey Metal X Milled 330M (current gamer)

    Ping Scottsdale TR B60
    TP Mills Heritage 349g
    Byron Morgan 006 355g
    Byron Morgan Makers Proof #4/5 solid copper
    C&L CL1 368g
    Scotty Cameron Newport Studio Style
  • MarkAJonesMarkAJones Jonesy Members Posts: 228 ✭✭
    edited Feb 17, 2018 #237
    Did he make a statement of fact or ask the question?



    Theres a huge difference.



    And after watching Rick Shiels reviews, where he found twist face actually harmed his game, it would seem reasonable for Tour players to play a non twist face version if thats what they wanted. However, if theres no such version on the list, its likely a non question



    I like Crossfield, I get his humour. Sure, you can toss away some of his commentary but I like hes not afraid to ruffle a few feathers.



    If you think every claim that had been thrown at us by the golf companies is true you need to give yourself a good shake. Its 90% BS
    Hart Common Golf Club, Westhoughton, United Kingdom

    WITB:


    Driver:
    TaylorMade 2017 M1 HZRDUS Stiff 10.5
    Hybrid: TaylorMade M1 Hybrid #2 Kuro Kage Stiff Set at 15.5
    Hybrid: TaylorMade M1 Hybrid #3 Kuro Kage Stiff Set at 18
    Hybrid: TaylorMade M1 Hybrid #4 Kuro Kage Stiff Set at 22.5
    Irons: Ping i200 5 - PW AWT 2.0 Stiff Green dot +1inch
    Wedge 1:
    Ping Glide 50 degree CFS Wedge Flex Green dot +1inch
    Wedge 2:
    Ping Glide 54 degree CFS Wedge Flex Green dot +1.25inch
    Wedge 3:
    Ping Glide 58 degree CFS Wedge Flex Green dot +1.50inch
    Putter: Ping Ketsch Cadence 375g

    Gamer Ball: Bridgestone B330RXS
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,365 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Feb 17, 2018 #238
    MarkAJones wrote:


    Did he make a statement of fact or ask the question?



    Theres a huge difference.



    And after watching Rick Shiels reviews, where he found twist face actually harmed his game, it would seem reasonable for Tour players to play a non twist face version if thats what they wanted. However, if theres no such version on the list, its likely a non question



    I like Crossfield, I get his humour. Sure, you can toss away some of his commentary but I like hes not afraid to ruffle a few feathers.



    If you think every claim that had been thrown at us by the golf companies is true you need to give yourself a good shake. Its 90% BS




    The major golf equipment OEMs spend a lot of time and money on R&D/product innovation and testing.



    I was blown away by the commitment and enthusiasm of the TM product development team when I was out there. They're mantra is to make innovative improvements to their products that will provide measurable/tangible performance advantages.



    It should go without saying given that they must work within the limitations mandated by the ruling bodies that most advances will generally be relatively small and incremental to previous generation products. Twist Face is a perfect example.



    My personal experience as a low HC player is that Twist Face works as advertised. I have found that my typical nose-diving pull draw miss stays in the air longer and does not dive as far left as it might otherwise do without the tech or with a different OEM's driver. Even 3 or 4 yards of correction can make a significant difference over the course of a round. To dismiss it without having tried it is folly.
    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • mahoniemahonie EnglandMembers Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    dpb5031 wrote:

    MarkAJones wrote:


    Did he make a statement of fact or ask the question?



    Theres a huge difference.



    And after watching Rick Shiels reviews, where he found twist face actually harmed his game, it would seem reasonable for Tour players to play a non twist face version if thats what they wanted. However, if theres no such version on the list, its likely a non question



    I like Crossfield, I get his humour. Sure, you can toss away some of his commentary but I like hes not afraid to ruffle a few feathers.



    If you think every claim that had been thrown at us by the golf companies is true you need to give yourself a good shake. Its 90% BS




    The major golf equipment OEMs spend a lot of time and money on R&D/product innovation and testing.



    I was blown away by the commitment and enthusiasm of the TM product development team when I was out there. They're mantra is to make innovative improvements to their products that will provide measurable/tangible performance advantages.



    It should go without saying given that they must work within the limitations mandated by the ruling bodies that most advances will generally be relatively small and incremental to previous generation products. Twist Face is a perfect example.



    My personal experience as a low HC player is that Twist Face works as advertised. I have found that my typical nose-diving pull draw miss stays in the air longer and does not dive as far left as it might otherwise do without the tech or with a different OEM's driver. Even 3 or 4 yards of correction can make a significant difference over the course of a round. To dismiss it without having tried it is folly.




    Major OEMs spend nearly 9x as much on marketing as they do on R&D. Perhaps if they refocused their attention we might get affordable clubs rather than over-priced, re-badged versions of old tech that rarely bring anything new to the table.
    Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
    MD Golf Superstrong 3-wood UST Proforce 65 Stiff
    Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
    Mizuno MP4 4-PW DG S300
    Wilson Staff PMP wedges 50/54/58 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Radius Classic 8
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,365 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    mahonie wrote:

    dpb5031 wrote:

    MarkAJones wrote:


    Did he make a statement of fact or ask the question?



    Theres a huge difference.



    And after watching Rick Shiels reviews, where he found twist face actually harmed his game, it would seem reasonable for Tour players to play a non twist face version if thats what they wanted. However, if theres no such version on the list, its likely a non question



    I like Crossfield, I get his humour. Sure, you can toss away some of his commentary but I like hes not afraid to ruffle a few feathers.



    If you think every claim that had been thrown at us by the golf companies is true you need to give yourself a good shake. Its 90% BS




    The major golf equipment OEMs spend a lot of time and money on R&D/product innovation and testing.



    I was blown away by the commitment and enthusiasm of the TM product development team when I was out there. They're mantra is to make innovative improvements to their products that will provide measurable/tangible performance advantages.



    It should go without saying given that they must work within the limitations mandated by the ruling bodies that most advances will generally be relatively small and incremental to previous generation products. Twist Face is a perfect example.



    My personal experience as a low HC player is that Twist Face works as advertised. I have found that my typical nose-diving pull draw miss stays in the air longer and does not dive as far left as it might otherwise do without the tech or with a different OEM's driver. Even 3 or 4 yards of correction can make a significant difference over the course of a round. To dismiss it without having tried it is folly.




    Major OEMs spend nearly 9x as much on marketing as they do on R&D. Perhaps if they refocused their attention we might get affordable clubs rather than over-priced, re-badged versions of old tech that rarely bring anything new to the table.




    They have no choice but to spend up on marketing or they wouldn't survive. That fact in no way diminishes the work they do in product innovation. No one's forcing you to spend your money if you believe your old stuff is just as good...
    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • mahoniemahonie EnglandMembers Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    dpb5031 wrote:

    mahonie wrote:

    dpb5031 wrote:

    MarkAJones wrote:


    Did he make a statement of fact or ask the question?



    Theres a huge difference.



    And after watching Rick Shiels reviews, where he found twist face actually harmed his game, it would seem reasonable for Tour players to play a non twist face version if thats what they wanted. However, if theres no such version on the list, its likely a non question



    I like Crossfield, I get his humour. Sure, you can toss away some of his commentary but I like hes not afraid to ruffle a few feathers.



    If you think every claim that had been thrown at us by the golf companies is true you need to give yourself a good shake. Its 90% BS




    The major golf equipment OEMs spend a lot of time and money on R&D/product innovation and testing.



    I was blown away by the commitment and enthusiasm of the TM product development team when I was out there. They're mantra is to make innovative improvements to their products that will provide measurable/tangible performance advantages.



    It should go without saying given that they must work within the limitations mandated by the ruling bodies that most advances will generally be relatively small and incremental to previous generation products. Twist Face is a perfect example.



    My personal experience as a low HC player is that Twist Face works as advertised. I have found that my typical nose-diving pull draw miss stays in the air longer and does not dive as far left as it might otherwise do without the tech or with a different OEM's driver. Even 3 or 4 yards of correction can make a significant difference over the course of a round. To dismiss it without having tried it is folly.




    Major OEMs spend nearly 9x as much on marketing as they do on R&D. Perhaps if they refocused their attention we might get affordable clubs rather than over-priced, re-badged versions of old tech that rarely bring anything new to the table.




    They have no choice but to spend up on marketing or they wouldn't survive. That fact in no way diminishes the work they do in product innovation. No one's forcing you to spend your money if you believe your old stuff is just as good...




    I honestly can’t think of any product innovation that has made any real difference that has come out in the last 10 years. I usually wait 2-3 years if not longer to get the ‘next best thing’ when you can still get brand new product at 20% of the cost when they came out...and it’s still just as good ;-)
    Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
    MD Golf Superstrong 3-wood UST Proforce 65 Stiff
    Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
    Mizuno MP4 4-PW DG S300
    Wilson Staff PMP wedges 50/54/58 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Radius Classic 8

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