Who mills Byron Morgan heads

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  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker Members Posts: 5,161 ✭✭

    SPY ZINGER wrote:


    Interesting thread for sure. What about Artisan Golf and how their putters are crafted from start to finish?




    Artisan definitely starts w a block not a premilled blank.




    Ari - about how long does it take to Mill a quality head starting with a block of steel?
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  • SPY ZINGERSPY ZINGER Members Posts: 3,313 ✭✭

    SPY ZINGER wrote:


    Interesting thread for sure. What about Artisan Golf and how their putters are crafted from start to finish?




    Artisan definitely starts w a block not a premilled blank.




    Thanks Ari, so is everything done from start to finish, CNC, and hand shaping all right in the Fort Worth facility?
  • FairwayFredFairwayFred Sponsors Posts: 3,966 ✭✭
    SPY ZINGER wrote:


    SPY ZINGER wrote:


    Interesting thread for sure. What about Artisan Golf and how their putters are crafted from start to finish?




    Artisan definitely starts w a block not a premilled blank.




    Thanks Ari, so is everything done from start to finish, CNC, and hand shaping all right in the Fort Worth facility?




    I was just down there a few weeks ago and I was super impressed with their putter setup. I can't guarantee that they do every finish there but I got the impression they did and they definitely do the milling shaping etc in house. Really excited for the putter they are making for me.



    As far as time to mill a head that really depends on alot do things including the head you are making and the machine you are using etc.
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  • Scotty1140Scotty1140 Members Posts: 4,404 ✭✭
    So what’s the difference if the starting block is milled into a putter ‘blank’ at a milling shop vs the putter company’s shop?



    How is the finished product affected one way or another?
  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,067 ✭✭
    edited Dec 2, 2018 #186
    It's like the old story of Betti milling Scotty's heads early on, it takes away from the brand a little bit knowing they outsource the biggest part of head-making.



    I kinda had the same feeling about vehicles growing up when I realized Acura is nothing more than a Honda, a Lexus is Toyota, Audi is Volkswagen etc.
    '16 M2 10.5*, Diamana LE 70 S+ 43.5"
    Ping G SFT 16*, DIamana LE 70 S+ 41.5"
    Ping Rapture 3i, AWT-R
    Ping G25 4-G, DG-R400
    Vokey 56(57*), 60(63*) DG-R400
    Byron DH89 Longneck 33" (or any of 10 4 other putters...)
  • airbusisamustairbusisamust Members Posts: 16 ClubWRX
    SPY ZINGER wrote:


    Interesting thread for sure. What about Artisan Golf and how their putters are crafted from start to finish?




    This question has already been answered, but I can confirm they mill everything in-house. Only one finish can not be done in house and is sent out. Adds a few weeks for delivery.
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  • dwbostondwboston Lefty Boomers Posts: 2,318 ✭✭
    A.Princey wrote:


    It's like the old story of Betti milling Scotty's heads early on, it takes away from the brand a little bit knowing they outsource the biggest part of head-making.



    I kinda had the same feeling about vehicles growing up when I realized Acura is nothing more than a Honda, a Lexus is Toyota, Audi is Volkswagen etc.






    None of the car companies you mentioned make any of the components or body parts that go into their cars. Virtually every part is outsourced. They are design and manufacturing (assembly and finishing) experts. Boeing outsources parts and components as well. I don't think any less of my Audi because Bosch makes parts and components for the car. Audi designed and built it.
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  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,067 ✭✭
    edited Dec 2, 2018 #189
    Exactly, but to think Audi and Volkswagen are vastly different beyond a few trim options and bells/whistles is naive. Functionally, it's still a VW.



    At some point, people begin to question the "uniqueness" of a particular brand vs one that does all it's own work, and that only. One could say all putter makers are outsourcing their materials in general, I mean they aren't forging 303 stainless blanks at an "in-house" foundry after all. Watering things down with sub-companies and "upgrade" offerings is an image change at best.



    Outsourcing parts is one thing, using the same base design template for 2 or more "different brands" is what leaves a generic taste in the consumers mouth. Milling of the putter head is 90% of the work, and some people might feel slighted to learn the "brand factory's" contribution is simply adding a few stamps, polished corners, and finish options. Bells and whistles if you will....



    I just ordered a new BM putter, it's my 3rd thus far. I am interested in this discussion for knowledge's sake, but none of this matters to me as a consumer at the end of the day. Carry on.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    '16 M2 10.5*, Diamana LE 70 S+ 43.5"
    Ping G SFT 16*, DIamana LE 70 S+ 41.5"
    Ping Rapture 3i, AWT-R
    Ping G25 4-G, DG-R400
    Vokey 56(57*), 60(63*) DG-R400
    Byron DH89 Longneck 33" (or any of 10 4 other putters...)
  • SPY ZINGERSPY ZINGER Members Posts: 3,313 ✭✭
    Thanks Ari!
  • joseyjosey Posts: 123 ✭✭
    I only have a problem with them outsourcing if they portrait themselves as hand crafters or genuine makers of the product.
  • Matt JMatt J Members Posts: 8,648 ✭✭
    A.Princey wrote:


    Exactly, but to think Audi and Volkswagen are vastly different beyond a few trim options and bells/whistles is naive. Functionally, it's still a VW.



    At some point, people begin to question the "uniqueness" of a particular brand vs one that does all it's own work, and that only. One could say all putter makers are outsourcing their materials in general, I mean they aren't forging 303 stainless blanks at an "in-house" foundry after all. Watering things down with sub-companies and "upgrade" offerings is an image change at best.



    Outsourcing parts is one thing, using the same base design template for 2 or more "different brands" is what leaves a generic taste in the consumers mouth. Milling of the putter head is 90% of the work, and some people might feel slighted to learn the "brand factory's" contribution is simply adding a few stamps, polished corners, and finish options. Bells and whistles if you will....



    I just ordered a new BM putter, it's my 3rd thus far. I am interested in this discussion for knowledge's sake, but none of this matters to me as a consumer at the end of the day. Carry on.




    Audi's are assembled in Germany. Anything less expensive than a VW Passat is assembled in Mexico. Or, they were last time I purchased a VW.



    Cars and putters are a huge stretch. A trillion moving parts that all need to synchronize properly with each other or one joint where the shaft is glued into the hosel. Big difference.
  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,067 ✭✭
    edited Dec 4, 2018 #193
    Which makes the brand vs craft argument even more valid for putters given their relative cost vs function over you trillion moving parts VW/Audi. If you're buying a brand. Given how technically simple a milled putter is vs a turbo-charged engine block, the argument is silly, and all the more reason a putter brand should fully create a putter from start to finish to be considered uniquely crafted.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    '16 M2 10.5*, Diamana LE 70 S+ 43.5"
    Ping G SFT 16*, DIamana LE 70 S+ 41.5"
    Ping Rapture 3i, AWT-R
    Ping G25 4-G, DG-R400
    Vokey 56(57*), 60(63*) DG-R400
    Byron DH89 Longneck 33" (or any of 10 4 other putters...)
  • Matt JMatt J Members Posts: 8,648 ✭✭
    To each their own, but I still can't understand the argument.



    A putter builder is well capitalized. Perhaps he hit the PowerBall. Economy of scale means nothing to him. He buys a Haas Automation CNC Mill for $65,000.00. He then creates a CAD image of the putter head, writes the code into a DXF file for the CNC machine to mill the putter. He runs 50 heads in the first three days and begins engraving, stamping, and finishing the heads for retail sales. Now, his CNC machine sits idle until he designs another head. What difference is it if he did everything but buy the machine? Actually the outsourcing is what allows the little guys to stay little. If they had to own a $65,000.00 mill they would have to make putters 18 hours a day to pay for the machine.



    Byron looks to have 6 or 8 different heads he's working with while some have several different iterations i.e. a cavity milled into a Bombora where the head was a Bombora, so he just had to order X amount of the Bombora heads with a cavity. He's meeting the needs of his audience without taking on any more of the burden on of a depreciating asset. I don't see where he advertises anywhere that he personally mills the heads. Heck, no one really mills the head, Watson does. If you really want a "one off" hand milled putter I would imagine you have the savvy to go find it.
  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,067 ✭✭
    edited Dec 4, 2018 #195
    I wonder how many he makes in a year, it's gotta be in the hundreds to near 1000? That figure might even be low. He's got/had the engraved, fully machined heads that require very little hand turning and a pretty big Japanese market. It would be interesting to know his production rate, I'd be very surprised to find out he only averages like 10 putters a month.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    '16 M2 10.5*, Diamana LE 70 S+ 43.5"
    Ping G SFT 16*, DIamana LE 70 S+ 41.5"
    Ping Rapture 3i, AWT-R
    Ping G25 4-G, DG-R400
    Vokey 56(57*), 60(63*) DG-R400
    Byron DH89 Longneck 33" (or any of 10 4 other putters...)
  • joseyjosey Posts: 123 ✭✭
    To write the code into a dxf file then send off to be turned into a putter is where you are wrong. Yes this can be done but the finish is unique to the machine, tooling,work holding, feeds, and speeds. A person must actually watch the machine to gauge the finish and adjust accordingly. As much as it is a science it is also an art as just a few hundred rpms, or ipms and the finish can go from perfect to a chattery mess. Not to mention the tool life which is another animal all together. I do everything in house and I couldn't imagine putting my name on something I didn't have complete control over. Be it a putter, automotive parts, or car itself.
  • delmerdelmer ClubWRX Posts: 439 ClubWRX
    josey wrote:


    To write the code into a dxf file then send off to be turned into a putter is where you are wrong. Yes this can be done but the finish is unique to the machine, tooling,work holding, feeds, and speeds. A person must actually watch the machine to gauge the finish and adjust accordingly. As much as it is a science it is also an art as just a few hundred rpms, or ipms and the finish can go from perfect to a chattery mess. Not to mention the tool life which is another animal all together. I do everything in house and I couldn't imagine putting my name on something I didn't have complete control over. Be it a putter, automotive parts, or car itself.




    There are also concerns about supplier quality control. Are you going to have someone who will control the quality of the raw materials if you are outsourcing machining? Maybe but there certainly is more to consider than simply emailing off a machine program or cad file and then pressing a button.
  • Matt JMatt J Members Posts: 8,648 ✭✭
    I can appreciate where you guys are coming from as far as the mill wright being an important part of the finished product. I can't help to assume that if I were a former mill wright turned boutique putter maker then I could impart enough quality control to get heads milled off premise and be satisfied with the result. But, I can also understand the argument that the sales pitch should be honest in disclosing what parts of the assembly are done by whom and where... this just seems to be another piece of the puzzle that would play into pricing. I'm okay with the putter being milled elsewhere if it hits a quality and price I like. My most recent custom is hopefully soon to be created by these guys and it's neat to see that either they mill them or at least they go to the facility and get involved with the milling...



    https://www.instagra.../p/Be6VdjYHOET/



    If you've never seen a modern mill in action check out the link. It's a batch of Anser 2 style heads being milled.
  • RonSwansonRonSwanson Honor: if you need it defined, you don’t have it. ClubWRX Posts: 1,626 ClubWRX
    leftyDH04 wrote:


    I can appreciate where you guys are coming from as far as the mill wright being an important part of the finished product. I can't help to assume that if I were a former mill wright turned boutique putter maker then I could impart enough quality control to get heads milled off premise and be satisfied with the result. But, I can also understand the argument that the sales pitch should be honest in disclosing what parts of the assembly are done by whom and where... this just seems to be another piece of the puzzle that would play into pricing. I'm okay with the putter being milled elsewhere if it hits a quality and price I like. My most recent custom is hopefully soon to be created by these guys and it's neat to see that either they mill them or at least they go to the facility and get involved with the milling...



    https://www.instagra.../p/Be6VdjYHOET/



    If you've never seen a modern mill in action check out the link. It's a batch of Anser 2 style heads being milled.




    I had a Carbon made a few years back when they were first starting up. There was a hiccup or two, but it was pretty incredible the amount of control I was allowed over the design because they were doing everything themselves.



    http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1264306-carbon-putters-project-roulette-1-of-1-experience-and-review/
  • th6252th6252 Members Posts: 1,125 ✭✭
    RonSwanson wrote:

    leftyDH04 wrote:


    I can appreciate where you guys are coming from as far as the mill wright being an important part of the finished product. I can't help to assume that if I were a former mill wright turned boutique putter maker then I could impart enough quality control to get heads milled off premise and be satisfied with the result. But, I can also understand the argument that the sales pitch should be honest in disclosing what parts of the assembly are done by whom and where... this just seems to be another piece of the puzzle that would play into pricing. I'm okay with the putter being milled elsewhere if it hits a quality and price I like. My most recent custom is hopefully soon to be created by these guys and it's neat to see that either they mill them or at least they go to the facility and get involved with the milling...



    https://www.instagra.../p/Be6VdjYHOET/



    If you've never seen a modern mill in action check out the link. It's a batch of Anser 2 style heads being milled.




    I had a Carbon made a few years back when they were first starting up. There was a hiccup or two, but it was pretty incredible the amount of control I was allowed over the design because they were doing everything themselves.



    http://www.golfwrx.c...nce-and-review/


    do they do any hand-softening(aka Tai treatment in the Byron world) for their custom orders?
  • Matt JMatt J Members Posts: 8,648 ✭✭
    edited Dec 6, 2018 #201
    th6252 wrote:

    RonSwanson wrote:

    leftyDH04 wrote:


    I can appreciate where you guys are coming from as far as the mill wright being an important part of the finished product. I can't help to assume that if I were a former mill wright turned boutique putter maker then I could impart enough quality control to get heads milled off premise and be satisfied with the result. But, I can also understand the argument that the sales pitch should be honest in disclosing what parts of the assembly are done by whom and where... this just seems to be another piece of the puzzle that would play into pricing. I'm okay with the putter being milled elsewhere if it hits a quality and price I like. My most recent custom is hopefully soon to be created by these guys and it's neat to see that either they mill them or at least they go to the facility and get involved with the milling...



    https://www.instagra.../p/Be6VdjYHOET/



    If you've never seen a modern mill in action check out the link. It's a batch of Anser 2 style heads being milled.




    I had a Carbon made a few years back when they were first starting up. There was a hiccup or two, but it was pretty incredible the amount of control I was allowed over the design because they were doing everything themselves.



    http://www.golfwrx.c...nce-and-review/


    do they do any hand-softening(aka Tai treatment in the Byron world) for their custom orders?




    I can't speak for them, but they asked how much I wanted the design softened when I commissioned this putter. So, I assumed they would do it if you asked.



    I like refinishing putters, so I generally ask for mine to be left raw right off the mill with as much chatter as possible so I can soften what I like. I always start them off a tad heavy too, knowing it will only lose material down the road. I've been trying to stay a little hush hush about this putter because I want to write up a full review of the whole experience when I'm done.



    RonSwanson, I read your thread before I placed my order. I must say it scared me quite a bit. Can't help but think there is more to the story with Carbon than we know. Still hoping for a great outcome, but most admit it sounds a ton like everyone else's story up until now.
  • th6252th6252 Members Posts: 1,125 ✭✭
    leftyDH04 wrote:

    th6252 wrote:

    RonSwanson wrote:

    leftyDH04 wrote:


    I can appreciate where you guys are coming from as far as the mill wright being an important part of the finished product. I can't help to assume that if I were a former mill wright turned boutique putter maker then I could impart enough quality control to get heads milled off premise and be satisfied with the result. But, I can also understand the argument that the sales pitch should be honest in disclosing what parts of the assembly are done by whom and where... this just seems to be another piece of the puzzle that would play into pricing. I'm okay with the putter being milled elsewhere if it hits a quality and price I like. My most recent custom is hopefully soon to be created by these guys and it's neat to see that either they mill them or at least they go to the facility and get involved with the milling...



    https://www.instagra.../p/Be6VdjYHOET/



    If you've never seen a modern mill in action check out the link. It's a batch of Anser 2 style heads being milled.




    I had a Carbon made a few years back when they were first starting up. There was a hiccup or two, but it was pretty incredible the amount of control I was allowed over the design because they were doing everything themselves.



    http://www.golfwrx.c...nce-and-review/


    do they do any hand-softening(aka Tai treatment in the Byron world) for their custom orders?




    I can't speak for them, but they asked how much I wanted the design softened when I commissioned this putter. So, I assumed they would do it if you asked.



    I like refinishing putters, so I generally ask for mine to be left raw right off the mill with as much chatter as possible so I can soften what I like. I always start them off a tad heavy too, knowing it will only lose material down the road. I've been trying to stay a little hush hush about this putter because I want to write up a full review of the whole experience when I'm done.



    RonSwanson, I read your thread before I placed my order. I must say it scared me quite a bit. Can't help but think there is more to the story with Carbon than we know. Still hoping for a great outcome, but most admit it sounds a ton like everyone else's story up until now.




    hmm, very interesting, thanks for the info. i've been considering getting an anser 2 style putter made, but i'm pretty picky as to what i'm looking for. basically been looking for as close to the original anser 2 shape i can find(closest ones to my eye are this, the bettinardi bb8c older scotty np2's), but with a rounded topline and a heavier weight(360g+). seems like if they could do some hand shaping to the bumpers and neck, it would look very close to what i'm after.
  • Matt JMatt J Members Posts: 8,648 ✭✭
    th6252 wrote:

    leftyDH04 wrote:

    th6252 wrote:

    RonSwanson wrote:

    leftyDH04 wrote:


    I can appreciate where you guys are coming from as far as the mill wright being an important part of the finished product. I can't help to assume that if I were a former mill wright turned boutique putter maker then I could impart enough quality control to get heads milled off premise and be satisfied with the result. But, I can also understand the argument that the sales pitch should be honest in disclosing what parts of the assembly are done by whom and where... this just seems to be another piece of the puzzle that would play into pricing. I'm okay with the putter being milled elsewhere if it hits a quality and price I like. My most recent custom is hopefully soon to be created by these guys and it's neat to see that either they mill them or at least they go to the facility and get involved with the milling...



    https://www.instagra.../p/Be6VdjYHOET/



    If you've never seen a modern mill in action check out the link. It's a batch of Anser 2 style heads being milled.




    I had a Carbon made a few years back when they were first starting up. There was a hiccup or two, but it was pretty incredible the amount of control I was allowed over the design because they were doing everything themselves.



    http://www.golfwrx.c...nce-and-review/


    do they do any hand-softening(aka Tai treatment in the Byron world) for their custom orders?




    I can't speak for them, but they asked how much I wanted the design softened when I commissioned this putter. So, I assumed they would do it if you asked.



    I like refinishing putters, so I generally ask for mine to be left raw right off the mill with as much chatter as possible so I can soften what I like. I always start them off a tad heavy too, knowing it will only lose material down the road. I've been trying to stay a little hush hush about this putter because I want to write up a full review of the whole experience when I'm done.



    RonSwanson, I read your thread before I placed my order. I must say it scared me quite a bit. Can't help but think there is more to the story with Carbon than we know. Still hoping for a great outcome, but most admit it sounds a ton like everyone else's story up until now.




    hmm, very interesting, thanks for the info. i've been considering getting an anser 2 style putter made, but i'm pretty picky as to what i'm looking for. basically been looking for as close to the original anser 2 shape i can find(closest ones to my eye are this, the bettinardi bb8c older scotty np2's), but with a rounded topline and a heavier weight(360g+). seems like if they could do some hand shaping to the bumpers and neck, it would look very close to what i'm after.




    Absolutely. I like the original Anser 1 and particularly the flat top line. They offered to simply mill it flat to keep from having to grind that much material by hand. But, the standard top lines on their designs are curved. They seem to specialize in heavier heads. Some of the original reviews were a bit critical of where the sweet spot would end up. I can imagine that's an issue when you're beefing up some of these old shapes. In theory, we have everything figured out on mine, just waiting for it to be manufactured and built. I did ask for some custom engraving and am hoping to at least get a photo of the head before the wait for engraving starts. I've documented the whole thing by saving emails and taking notes after phone conversations. My thought was that a lot of the original complaints were awhile ago and it would be good to update the community about my experience.
  • ChronicSlicerChronicSlicer Members Posts: 908 ClubWRX
    leftyDH04 wrote:




    The hand engraving is killer, those are pretty sweet. I understand why a high dollar follows something like that, but some of these "boutique" companies not so much.
  • stevopagolfstevopagolf Members Posts: 1,450 ✭✭
    dwboston wrote:

    A.Princey wrote:


    It's like the old story of Betti milling Scotty's heads early on, it takes away from the brand a little bit knowing they outsource the biggest part of head-making.



    I kinda had the same feeling about vehicles growing up when I realized Acura is nothing more than a Honda, a Lexus is Toyota, Audi is Volkswagen etc.






    None of the car companies you mentioned make any of the components or body parts that go into their cars. Virtually every part is outsourced. They are design and manufacturing (assembly and finishing) experts. Boeing outsources parts and components as well. I don't think any less of my Audi because Bosch makes parts and components for the car. Audi designed and built it.




    Most automotive companies stamp the body panels on their vehicles to keep counterfeit sheet metal off the street for as long as possible, so more like Artisan than blanks. They make their own engines and most make their own transmissions. Other parts are designed and built to their specifications.
  • Matt JMatt J Members Posts: 8,648 ✭✭
    It would be an awesome photo essay to see a putter from block of metal to finished product. I imagine it would lend credence to what guys are saying that the operator of the CNC is key to good results. I've seen a few photos with two rough heads on the block, then the heads separated but still being milled, and then obviously there's the hand work. Just got my first progress photo of my newest, and it's cool to see where the blades cut the metal away, often I've seen the underlying mill lines faintly on other putters, but it's neat to see it before it's smoothed out.
  • delmerdelmer ClubWRX Posts: 439 ClubWRX
    leftyDH04 wrote:


    It would be an awesome photo essay to see a putter from block of metal to finished product. I imagine it would lend credence to what guys are saying that the operator of the CNC is key to good results. I've seen a few photos with two rough heads on the block, then the heads separated but still being milled, and then obviously there's the hand work. Just got my first progress photo of my newest, and it's cool to see where the blades cut the metal away, often I've seen the underlying mill lines faintly on other putters, but it's neat to see it before it's smoothed out.




    YouTube is addictive for a reason. There are some good videos of the putter milling process out there.
  • Matt JMatt J Members Posts: 8,648 ✭✭
    I'll check it out, thanks.
  • th6252th6252 Members Posts: 1,125 ✭✭
    leftyDH04 wrote:


    I'll check it out, thanks.


    I know Kari Lajosi has a bunch of videos up on YouTube as well.
  • joseyjosey Posts: 123 ✭✭
    I am milling some putters right now. If its ok with the admins I can do a thread that lays out the steps and walks you through the process.
  • Matt JMatt J Members Posts: 8,648 ✭✭
    josey wrote:


    I am milling some putters right now. If its ok with the admins I can do a thread that lays out the steps and walks you through the process.




    That would be awesome. I wonder if you don't post any sales info if they'll let it go? I haven't had the best luck with that type of stuff.
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