BST dispute. I got duped. It's like the WILD WEST right now.

Long time member with lots of feedback on BST. Mods we need that feedback soon asap!

I had a deal on BST and I just realized that I got bamboozled. I purchased a set of irons from

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1773480/mizuno-jpx-919-hot-metal-4-gw#latest

I asked the seller:

Sounds good to me so I paypaled and I got the irons the next day.

Fast forward when I got a chance to swing them. I was thinking swingweight felt funny and length seemed short. I measured them and they were all half inch short???

I was thinking to myself WTF?

Did some digging and saw this post by the seller when he said he bought the irons:

And the truth has been revealed....

Hard to believe seller forgot about this.

I filed paypal dispute just now.

EDIT: Seller is claiming he did not want to wait 2 weeks for a custom order and insists that they are "standard across the board"

Interestingly enough:

Sure sounds like you waited two weeks to me. Both mods and I have invited Rogue_Golf to the thread.

He meant by him. J/k. Good luck with the paypal dispute. Pretty shady by the seller

Nice use of the word bamboozled. Hopefully everything will be made right.

Artful response from the guy. Must be a lawyer.

Here is another post by him in that same thread...

On the truck and on their way to California! But a week of transit is ridiculous... I was originally quoted 2 days!

in Mizuno JPX919 irons Comment by Rogue_Golf Sep 17, 2018

Man, our BST has gone to complete s***.

> @onlyonfridays said:

> Man, our BST has gone to complete ****.

Its funny because they've been promo-ing the BST on instagram and thru email newsletters...but its worse than ever

yeah it's a sh*t show now but in fairness, this could have just as likely happened on the old BST as well.

Just don't understand how the BST can even exist without a feedback function. There's no excuse. I haven't bought in a while but when/if I do again I feel like I'll have to ask for references, as if I was hiring a contractor.

Unfortunately, it's Ebay for the foreseeable future for me. Which sucks, because I do not like selling there, and I've just been putting off moving things that aren't being used and accumulating stuff rather than keeping a "healthy" rotation going. I think I've paid Ebay over $200 the past two months in fees, which really sucks.

I said it in another thread, the BST should be shut down until it is a safe, comfortable place for us to do business. Instead they are just whistling past the graveyard while continuing to take people's money for pinned listings, and $5 per listing & club memberships for any yahoo that wants to jump in. Priorities on full display. And now they're promoting the BST on social media? Sad.

> @1s1k said:

> He meant by him. J/k. Good luck with the paypal dispute. Pretty shady by the seller

I truly believe that this is what he meant.

Wasn’t there another website that you could create your own feedback page on the site. Maybe it is cameroncollector?

Why cant we do the same until this is corrected?

Let’s face it fellas, the old feedback is toast. If it was coming back they would have it up by now.

Also, reply to those postings on social media and let everyone know how bad it sucks now and tell of all the scamming going on and dead beats that don’t ship for a week or two and the lying about specs being altered.

But we have super cool badges now to earn and advertising banners on top of the pages.. atleast im not spending as much cash on equip.

The static feedback rating will be back next week. It’s on final sprint and completed on staging.

The new feedback system has started but no eta. Maybe 30 to 60 days.

We will also be modifying bst access where users will need to accomplish a level of verified posting feedback, not bst specific but more than just post count. User contribution would be verified by community. The ClubWRX exception will remain.

Most issues we have seen, remain the same. People aren’t using proper ways to protect themselves in bst transactions. No feedback protects Venmo buyers of PayPal gifting. Or trades that people exercises questionable judgment.

To blame a Feedback system is a questionable crutch but understandable.

> @Gxgolfer said:

> The static feedback rating will be back next week. It’s on final sprint and completed on staging.

>

> The new feedback system has started but no eta. Maybe 30 to 60 days.

>

> **We will also be modifying bst access where users will need to accomplish a level of verified posting feedback**, not bst specific but more than just post count. User contribution would be verified by community. The ClubWRX exception will remain. **To blame a Feedback system is a questionable crutch but understandable.

Does this mean WRX management will be getting rid of the awful hideous and way too easy $5 buy in for the B/S/T regardless of post count that causes myriad issues? What about the $10 ad pinning cash cow for people that join but do not or have not ever participated in a thread outside of the B/S/T?

Based on your information above the ClubWrx $35 buy in regardless of post count will still apply for people with zero WRX forum posts that join WRX and pay for ClubWrx the same day to post B/S/T ads? That makes no sense. In other words somebody who ponies up $35 with zero WRX posts and no track record here will still be given immediate carte blanche access to the B/S/T over somebody who has been here for years and contributed to the forum but only has 72/74 "active posts" and has to wait for a few posts to be able to post a B/S/T ad? Guess every $ counts regardless of where it comes from. Sad.

> @Gxgolfer said:

> Most issues we have seen, remain the same. People aren’t using proper ways to protect themselves in bst transactions. No feedback protects Venmo buyers of PayPal gifting. Or trades that people exercises questionable judgment.

>

> To blame a Feedback system is a questionable crutch but understandable.

You’re missing the point. Plenty of people are getting scammed that ARE protected and eventually get their money back, but it’s the frequency of the hassle and wasting of time because there’s nothing indicating someone is a problematic seller. So plenty of buyers can reasonably say, “had there been a feedback system, I wouldn’t have even dealt with this person, wouldn’t be opening a paypal dispute, and would have just bought elsewhere.

It’s not just about not being able to recover your money, it’s just avoiding headaches altogether and not allowing scammers to be able to repeat offenses because there’s little there to track them.

> @grm24 said:

> > @Gxgolfer said:

> > The static feedback rating will be back next week. It’s on final sprint and completed on staging.

> >

> > The new feedback system has started but no eta. Maybe 30 to 60 days.

> >

> > **We will also be modifying bst access where users will need to accomplish a level of verified posting feedback**, not bst specific but more than just post count. User contribution would be verified by community. The ClubWRX exception will remain. **To blame a Feedback system is a questionable crutch but understandable.

>

> Does this mean WRX management will be getting rid of the awful hideous and way too easy $5 buy in for the B/S/T regardless of post count that causes myriad issues? What about the $10 ad pinning cash cow for people that join but do not or have not ever participated in a thread outside of the B/S/T?

>

> Based on your information above the ClubWrx $35 buy in regardless of post count will still apply for people with zero WRX forum posts that join WRX and pay for ClubWrx the same day to post B/S/T ads? That makes no sense. In other words somebody who ponies up $35 with zero WRX posts and no track record here will still be given immediate carte blanche access to the B/S/T over somebody who has been here for years and contributed to the forum but only has 72/74 "active posts" and has to wait for a few posts to be able to post a B/S/T ad? Guess every $ counts regardless of where it comes from. Sad

We have stated many times the value of the bst and again like everything else people have dreams of grandeur about revenue and worth. We don’t deny it’s value but the rules were conceived for fairness and it’s far from the biggest revenue source. All the above will remain in effect and was approved by membership to keep the bst active. The fees have been around a very long time to verify information and assist in fraud investigations.

The BST is not perfect and we are working on solutions.

> @wrbush31 said:

> > @Gxgolfer said:

> > Most issues we have seen, remain the same. People aren’t using proper ways to protect themselves in bst transactions. No feedback protects Venmo buyers of PayPal gifting. Or trades that people exercises questionable judgment.

> >

> > To blame a Feedback system is a questionable crutch but understandable.

>

> You’re missing the point. Plenty of people are getting scammed that ARE protected and eventually get their money back, but it’s the frequency of the hassle and wasting of time because there’s nothing indicating someone is a problematic seller. So plenty of buyers can reasonably say, “had there been a feedback system, I wouldn’t have even dealt with this person, wouldn’t be opening a paypal dispute, and would have just bought elsewhere.

>

> It’s not just about not being able to recover your money, it’s just avoiding headaches altogether and not allowing scammers to be able to repeat offenses because there’s little there to track

Fair point but

Feedback is not always given or received for most transactions

Their is no validation of the feedback

The willingness to do things knowingly or unknowingly cannot be regulated.

It take time to build feedback unless again someone makes multiple accounts and works around the system.

Again, we are taking steps to bring feedback back. It’s not a back burner issue.

> @Gxgolfer said:

> The static feedback rating will be back next week. It’s on final sprint and completed on staging.

>

> The new feedback system has started but no eta. Maybe 30 to 60 days.

>

> We will also be modifying bst access where users will need to accomplish a level of verified posting feedback, not bst specific but more than just post count. User contribution would be verified by community. The ClubWRX exception will remain.

>

> Most issues we have seen, remain the same. People aren’t using proper ways to protect themselves in bst transactions. No feedback protects Venmo buyers of PayPal gifting. Or trades that people exercises questionable judgment.

>

> To blame a Feedback system is a questionable crutch but understandable.

Will previous feedback ratings be restored?

Stated several times, Yes.

“It’s not our fault, it’s yours”. Uh, ok. Got it. What a fantastic comment on what appears to be a troublesome development since the “improvements”.

Quick question - if it’s such a minor revenue generator why was it prioritized to carry over the pay-to-list, club membership workaround, and pinned ad fee, but it’s almost July and we’re still only getting promises of a feedback system being revived?

One more thing - saying "sure we make money off the BST, but not _that_ much money" doesn't make that pill go down any better. You make money, it's irrelevant how much. You've chosen to keep that revenue stream open over choosing to err on the side of the safety of your members. Man, I am fully aware that you are not the most friendly in your interactions with members here, but your completely unapologetic tone here pointing fingers back at members is very unbecoming. But, you do you - it's your site. We're probably just lucky you even let us come here.

UPDATE: Rogue_Golf refunded me after I sent back the irons. I out some money shipping it back, but whatever. Still can't believe he thought he could get away with it. This is GolfWRX did he not expect me to check the specs....

> @GoIrish17 said:

> One more thing - saying "sure we make money off the BST, but not _that_ much money" doesn't make that pill go down any better. You make money, it's irrelevant how much. You've chosen to keep that revenue stream open over choosing to err on the side of the safety of your members. Man, I am fully aware that you are not the most friendly in your interactions with members here, but your completely unapologetic tone here pointing fingers back at members is very unbecoming. But, you do you - it's your site. We're probably just lucky you even let us come here.

To be fair, no one is forcing people to use the BST. . . I don't agree that all of the responsibility is on the website to ensure people's safety.

People get scammed on Craigslist all the time. Craigslist is a platform. Is it their job to police everything that happens among people who use their site?

If GolfWrx closed the BST people would complain about that, too.

Frankly I think the BST is kind of a privilege, not a right. I didn't create it. I don't pay for it. If I don't feel it's worth it, I won't use it for now. I will wait until it's in a state where it is safe to use.

But I'm not going to chastise people for not making something to my liking when I like it, when I'm getting it for free without any effort of my own.

> @GoIrish17 said:

> One more thing - saying "sure we make money off the BST, but not _that_ much money" doesn't make that pill go down any better. You make money, it's irrelevant how much. You've chosen to keep that revenue stream open over choosing to err on the side of the safety of your members. Man, I am fully aware that you are not the most friendly in your interactions with members here, but your completely unapologetic tone here pointing fingers back at members is very unbecoming. But, you do you - it's your site. We're probably just lucky you even let us come here.

Great post but save your breath. My take on this after the WRX reply to me is that somebody who joins WRX in the next two minutes, has no posts, but pays the $5 easy way out B/S/T ad posting fee to potentially get over on somebody is held in higher esteem than long time WRX members who have contributed continual time and effort to the site. The same people who helped make the B/S/T to what it used to be and supported WRX sponsors.

I hope the B/S/T can get back to what it used to be. The thousands here that made it a great place to do gear buys/trades/deals deserves better than what WRX has devovled into from this "interesting" software migration.

@straightshot7 Hey man, I usually appreciate your point of view on things, and I'm not looking to get into a silly back and forth here. But, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. And it won't offend me if you don't agree with my opinion, reasonable folks can disagree. But, I feel like GolfWRX does bear some responsibility on the BST. I wouldn't even try to guess at numbers or percentages, but the site makes a fair bit of money from the BST. Prior to the changes, and after. But I'm supposed to suffer an owner of the site giving passive-aggressive lectures about it being our fault for a bunch of shady mf'ers crawling out of the woodwork all of a sudden, because feedback was item 37 or 50 on the list of things that absolutely HAD to make the migration from old site to new? Because some of the shady mf'ers have convinced inexperienced members to use Venmo or PayPal f&f?

"Most issues we have seen, remain the same. People aren’t using proper ways to protect themselves in bst transactions. No feedback protects Venmo buyers of PayPal gifting. Or trades that people exercises questionable judgment." Whistling past the graveyard. "Your fault, not ours". I personally have better things to do than deal with PayPal disputes, I don't have a Venmo account (I am a grown up and can figure out a better way to split bar tabs and greens fees), and you can damn well bet I am not sending any of you internet golf buddies money via friends and family. So, tell me again how that money from ads and BST-only members is being spent here? Oh, that "disagree" feature was a riot, though. Well worth the money paid to the yahoos that engineered site "improvement" 1.0.

And, for the record, since it came up (you mentioned not paying for it), I would happily pay a reasonable annual subscription to the BST, or some listing fee... if it were closed to people who have no investment in GolfWRX - people who don't contribute to the forums, people who just joined today to buy something Google took them to, people who have no desire to be considerate and respectful. You say the BST is a privilege not a right, and I say BS to that. You are correct- it should be. But in reality it can be bought, and anyone who wants to invest $5 can sell their crap here. And it's free to buy. There is nothing to be earned, it can be bought. Unfortunately, I just don't see that buy-in being re-invested into the BST.

> @Gxgolfer said:

> Fair point but

> Feedback is not always given or received for most transactions

> Their is no validation of the feedback

> The willingness to do things knowingly or unknowingly cannot be regulated.

> It take time to build feedback unless again someone makes multiple accounts and works around the system.

In the interest of making this place better in the future, I’m going to point out this is a smoke and mirrors distraction hoping we just go “oh, ok.”

What you just described may as well say “what’s the point of feedback at all?!” Even if anything you said there was valid, I can still see if someone has six negatives even if there were a hundred other transactions they had that were good or bad.

I understand your need to defend your kingdom here, but it would probably go over a hundred times better if you just flat out said “we really screwed up not having feedback at launch, we hear your feedback (pun not intended) and are working tirelessly to restore it.” And no, I don’t need to read another prose on the old system’s lack of stability so there just wasn’t time to develop the feedback function. Maybe that’s true, and fine, I’ll accept it, but that narrative isn’t holding water for most people.

WRX dropped the ball on feedback, it’s causing very tangible problems for the Classified community, and possibly a noticeable long term detriment to WRX traffic and user base. Let’s just be honest about that and stop telling us we have it totally misconstrued. Most of us have been here awhile, we don’t.

> @wrbush31 said:

> > @Gxgolfer said:

> > Fair point but

> > Feedback is not always given or received for most transactions

> > Their is no validation of the feedback

> > The willingness to do things knowingly or unknowingly cannot be regulated.

> > It take time to build feedback unless again someone makes multiple accounts and works around the system.

>

> In the interest of making this place better in the future, I’m going to point out this is a smoke and mirrors distraction hoping we just go “oh, ok.”

>

> What you just described may as well say “what’s the point of feedback at all?!” Even if anything you said there was valid, I can still see if someone has six negatives even if there were a hundred other transactions they had that were good or bad.

>

> I understand your need to defend your kingdom here, but it would probably go over a hundred times better if you just flat out said “we really screwed up not having feedback at launch, we hear your feedback (pun not intended) and are working tirelessly to restore it.” And no, I don’t need to read another prose on the old system’s lack of stability so there just wasn’t time to develop the feedback function. Maybe that’s true, and fine, I’ll accept it, but that narrative isn’t holding water for most people.

>

> WRX dropped the ball on feedback, it’s causing very tangible problems for the Classified community, and possibly a noticeable long term detriment to WRX traffic and user base. Let’s just be honest about that and stop telling us we have it totally misconstrued. Most of us have been here awhile, we don’t.

>

>

I’m not sure what you are reading but we said many times that we made mistakes in this roll out, but understand this is the Internet and people just love to pile on.

They claim erroneous motives and plain make stuff up. Look, we employ people that support families and the constant baseless attacks gets tiring and people do get sensitive as there is a difference between frustration and personal attacks to troll for a provocative response. There are multiple threads in the website and feedback forum where we go in depth about everything.

When the previous feedback system was in place, these exact same issues occurred. I’m not entering a debate about the validity of the information or usage because ultimately it doesn’t matter, we just need to bring it back and working to do so.

Did it help sure, but the lack of personal responsibility also has a place. We also have rules about payment methods and listings that are constantly broken as well for people to save a few bucks. It’s human nature for people to want to take risks.

So let’s sum up:

1) We recognize and own we made multiple mistakes.

2) The old feedback scores are being restored as a read only and in final sprint

Roll outs are done in phase in different environments and finally is in staging phase and almost ready to production push.

3) The new system has started. The delays are attributed to priority of rolling out new theme, compatibility and also stages we want to roll out the new feedback system by. The initial build hours are in the 100 to 200 range.

> @GoIrish17 said:

> @straightshot7 Hey man, I usually appreciate your point of view on things, and I'm not looking to get into a silly back and forth here. But, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. And it won't offend me if you don't agree with my opinion, reasonable folks can disagree. But, I feel like GolfWRX does bear some responsibility on the BST. I wouldn't even try to guess at numbers or percentages, but the site makes a fair bit of money from the BST. Prior to the changes, and after. But I'm supposed to suffer an owner of the site giving passive-aggressive lectures about it being our fault for a bunch of shady mf'ers crawling out of the woodwork all of a sudden, because feedback was item 37 or 50 on the list of things that absolutely HAD to make the migration from old site to new? Because some of the shady mf'ers have convinced inexperienced members to use Venmo or PayPal f&f?

>

> "Most issues we have seen, remain the same. People aren’t using proper ways to protect themselves in bst transactions. No feedback protects Venmo buyers of PayPal gifting. Or trades that people exercises questionable judgment." Whistling past the graveyard. "Your fault, not ours". I personally have better things to do than deal with PayPal disputes, I don't have a Venmo account (I am a grown up and can figure out a better way to split bar tabs and greens fees), and you can **** well bet I am not sending any of you internet golf buddies money via friends and family. So, tell me again how that money from ads and BST-only members is being spent here? Oh, that "disagree" feature was a riot, though. Well worth the money paid to the yahoos that engineered site "improvement" 1.0.

>

> And, for the record, since it came up (you mentioned not paying for it), I would happily pay a reasonable annual subscription to the BST, or some listing fee... if it were closed to people who have no investment in GolfWRX - people who don't contribute to the forums, people who just joined today to buy something Google took them to, people who have no desire to be considerate and respectful. You say the BST is a privilege not a right, and I say BS to that. You are correct- it should be. But in reality it can be bought, and anyone who wants to invest $5 can sell their crap here. And it's free to buy. There is nothing to be earned, it can be bought. Unfortunately, I just don't see that buy-in being re-invested into the BST.

Hey, hope you're well. I don't disagree with most of what you are saying. I know you have valid points.

I just didn't agree with this sentence: "You've chosen to keep that revenue stream open over choosing to err on the side of the safety of your members."

Because it makes it sound like the Site is deliberately putting people at risk and makes it sound like it's their responsibility to protect people. I agree that "GolfWRX does bear some responsibility on the BST". Of course. I just don't think that they bear all of the responsibility.

Anytime you buy and sell online with other individuals, or even in person, there is risk of getting scammed. It still happens on eBay and elsewhere, because you can never totally police human behavior.

So, I just feel that people have to do their own due diligence. The people doing these transactions today are choosing to do so without the feedback system in place. That's their choice. That's the risk they are choosing to take.

Could GolfWRX have gotten the feedback system back in place faster? Maybe. Yes. But I don't think it was malicious on their part. So if anything for now I would just wait until it's back in place.

I agree with you that people probably shouldn't be able to buy their way on for $5 and it sounds like above it's mentioned that in the new, upcoming system there will be some post requirement and people can always choose to not do business with the new, $5 members that don't have feedback or a long posting history.