3w distance off the fairway

[pinestreetgolf]

This article makes interesting reading, although I'm not sure what benefit all this data collecting actually has for the average club golfer. I'm sure we all see lots of outliers that would seem to disprove the figures:

 

http://www.golf-mont...y-hit-it-123891

 

Mahonie, Speaking of wild watched this last night..

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

fast forward to 0:22

 

318 Carry

363 total

 

45 Yards of roll WTF!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

ahahahahaha I love distance claims....

 

 

 

 

with that...... Realistically speaking average 100% of all players.... Those look legit as can be....

 

The outlier/hard part is being on GolfWRX I would agree we are within the top 20 percentile of players on average..... So having to take that average, I would say puts us in a much higher bracket then those numbers BUT I still doubt GolfWRX as a majority exceeds a PGA Tour Pro stat........thats just unrealistic......

 

It wasn't just a majority. It was about 70%. Unrealistic is very polite.

[klebs01]

You're saying it's not not true we average a distance when that wasn't the original question. I gave my stock (environmentally neutral distance) which was an appropriate response to the OP.

[mn44]

last useless point that I thought was kind of interesting,

 

http://www.pgatour.c...02426.2016.html

 

average going for it, Interesting to see, DJ the longer guy, his average going for it it 236 yards

 

the other end of the spectrum Jeff Overton 264.4 average. I think this is total distance as well and not carry.

 

 

DJ drives the ball further off the tee, therefore his approach shots are going to be from shorter distances...

 

The more interesting stat is looking at someone like Jim Furyk - average drive is 265 (http://www.pgatour.c...s/stat.101.html), but his 'going for' it average distance is 242. i.e. There is only a ~20 yard gap between his tee ball and fairway approach shot. Pretty much kills the whole argument about people not hitting 3 woods 250 yards....unless you guys don't believe that people can drive it 270+.

 

No, I agree with your entire argument except its conclusion. I don't think 9 out of the first 14 responders in this thread strike the ball off the ground as well as Furyk. I believe moving it from the tee to the ground makes it a much harder shot than others in this thread are giving it credit for.

 

Off the tee speed is king. Off the deck strike is king. We are talking only about distance here. People don't hit tee shots fat and thin. Furyk loses a lot less moving from a tee to the earth than a 5 cap.

 

If Furyk loses 20-ish yards, and equivilent am will lose 40. Thats how much harder it is to repeat a swing off the deck versus tee. Furyk (As everyone knows) has one of the most repeatable swings in the world. To say an Am would equal him in translation from tee to deck is ridiculous. That's the point. A 5 cap that can bomb it off the tee probably has a really good maxed out 3 wood, but I doubt significantly he can strike it as well as Furyk on average.

 

So, using YOUR OWN argument, if Furyk drives it 265 off a perfect lie and loses 21 yards to the ground, do you SERIOUSLY think a 5 cap is losing exactly the same amount of distance as Furyk moving from the tee to the ground? That's insane. They'd lose much more. Their strike is garbage compared to Furyk and even HE loses 20 yards.

 

You've made a fantastic argument here, right up until the conclusion that Furyk and the 5 cap would both lose the same amount of yards moving from the tee to the ground. That's absurd.

 

I'm sorry, but your logic just doesn't add up. Your argument is assuming that 1) no amateur can hit it as clean as furyk (debateable) and 2) no amateur can drive it further than Furyk. Obviously, thousands of amateurs drive it further than Furyk (265) every day. Even if we throw out the clean strike argument (which again I disagree with, but it is completely irrelevant here, so lets focus only on distance), your position doesn't add up. I could name 40 guys at my club that average > 265 off the tee, and a good # of them can pump it past 290. So even if we go with your claim that amateurs lose 40 yards off the tee vs fairway (which again, isn't true, because I know I don't), a 250 fairway 3 wood is still perfectly plausible.

 

I'm sorry but regardless of how you slice it, your argument just doesn't add up. Bottom line is a 250 3 wood is nothing special nor terribly unique.

 

Repeated for literally the 19th time.

 

I. am. not. saying. no. amateur.can.be.this.good.

 

Let me say that again in all caps.

 

I AM NOT SAYING NO AMATEUR. CAN BE THIS GOOD.

 

I am saying not 75% of the first 18 responses in a Golf WRX thread. That isn't a single amateur. i have said over and over that elite amateurs and pros are relatively the same. I don't believe the first 18 responders in this thread are elite ams.

 

This is this conversation:

 

Me: "I don't think 75% of Golf WRX respondants can hit 3 wood off the deck better than a tour pro."

Other People: "Yeah, but some ams can."

Me: "OK, probably, just not 75% in this thread I bet"

You: "YOU SAID NOT A SINGLE AMATEUR CAN HIT IT LIKE FURYK AND THAT DOESN'T HOLD UP"

ME: ?

 

Dude, obviously I'm not arguing that no am can hit it like Furyk. That would be stupid. I'm arguing 75% of posters in this thread can't. The +2, maybe. Nobody worse than scratch can hit it like he can. I don't think 250 is crazy (I said that on pages 11 and 13). I still really doubt 9 of the first 14 are reaching 250 carry, but *maybe* that is plausible. But its not just 250 and you know it. Dude, theres a guy in here claiming 280 carry average with 16.5*. There's a 12 cap claiming 260 carry 270 total per another poster. There were two pages of nobody under 260. Give me a break. No chance. Not because "no am can do it" but because people experience massive degradation from the tee to the ground and suffer memory decay, which is especially bad when applied to golf.

 

Is it possible that there happen to be this many posting in this cluster of elite ballstrikiing ams that the average would be orders of magnitude higher than mid-cap average and nearly every single poster eclipse a tour pro? Yes, its possible. Its incredibly improbable.

 

Once again though, you are applying incredibly flawed logic at the foundation of your argument. You are assuming that the responses here are an accurate representation of the amateur golfing population, which is just nonsense. 30 out of the first 30 people that reply here could claim to hit it 250 and could very well be telling the truth. In no way does that mean that 100% of golfwrx members hit it 250. The people that tend to jump all over these threads from the get go are those people who are proud of how hard they hit it and want the world to know. They are significantly more likely to post than the dude who can barely make the fairway from the whites off the tee. Your data set is going to be biased way towards the tails regardless of your efforts, its just how it works on the internet. The same thing would happen if you started a thread about people who drive it under 150 off the tee. The majority of responses are going to be by, surprise, those people who drive it less than 150 yards.

 

The only way to get an accurate sample is to go to the course and ask a couple hundred completely random golfers to hit a 3 wood 10 times and then collect the data. In that scenario, and based on your comments here, I believe you would be surprised at how many players hit a 3 wood 250.

[dmb3535]

I am what golf digest says "average golfer, swing speed low 80s" and if (and that is a big if) I hit it dead center off the the fairway, I am VERY happy to get 215-220. I normally hit it for my 200 shot. I know a bunch "say" and might very well do, hit it 250 plus, but that's not average. Main thing is can you hit it where you aim when you try for 200 yard shot. If so, you will have plenty of success. I play with some damn good golfers and they blast it by me with every club in their bag, but I am very accurate and very good short game and beat them about half the time. I know this is a forbidden phrase, but distance is way overrated if you can't hit where you aim. Good luck and keep it up, scorecard has no pictures abd last time I checked the mail, I have never received a check from the PGA. Have fun and enjoy

[pinestreetgolf]

Once again though, you are applying incredibly flawed logic at the foundation of your argument. You are assuming that the responses here are an accurate representation of the amateur golfing population, which is just nonsense. Who cares if 20 out of the first 20 responses claim to hit the ball absurdly far? The people that tend to jump all over these threads from the get go are those people who are proud of how hard they hit it and want the world to know. They are thousands of times more likely to post than the dude who can barely make the fairway from the whites off the tee. Your data set is going to be biased way towards the tails regardless of your efforts, its just how it works on the internet. The only way to get an accurate sample is to go to the course and ask a couple hundred completely random golfers to hit a 3 wood 10 times and then collect the data. In that scenario, and based on your comments here, I believe you would be surprised at how many players hit a 3 wood 250.

 

Not just flawed. Incredibly flawed!

 

Lets agree to disagree. I've made my case that it is absolutely ridiculous that this many random forum goers would compress a ball off the deck better than a touring professional. Off the tee? You have no argument from me at all. Off the tee is a different world where its all about speed. Consistency off the deck is about a whole lot more than speed. Just like I think they can do it off the tee, I also think these players CAN hit it 250. Further, most of the replies I objected to weren't 250. They were nonsense like 280 carry with a 16.5* club. I'm still waiting for that video that was offered, by the way.

 

I think golfers massively overestimate how far they hit it off the deck when we think about consistency and not maximum with every club short of an 8 iron or so. I cited a 2015 study that reached a similar conclusion with a large data set and linked it. You disagree. Fair enough.

 

I am what golf digest says "average golfer, swing speed low 80s" and if (and that is a big if) I hit it dead center off the the fairway, I am VERY happy to get 215-220. I normally hit it for my 200 shot. I know a bunch "say" and might very well do, hit it 250 plus, but that's not average. Main thing is can you hit it where you aim when you try for 200 yard shot. If so, you will have plenty of success. I play with some damn good golfers and they blast it by me with every club in their bag, but I am very accurate and very good short game and beat them about half the time. I know this is a forbidden phrase, but distance is way overrated if you can't hit where you aim. Good luck and keep it up, scorecard has no pictures abd last time I checked the mail, I have never received a check from the PGA. Have fun and enjoy

 

I don't think much matters at all if you can't hit where you aim. Golf is a game of degrees. This is what i've been banging my head against this entire thread. Its not a good lie versus a bad lie, its an ocean of grey. Its not can't hit where you aim or can, its an ocean of grey. Its not "an amateur" - there are a million different flavors and games and degrees. Golf doesn't have these "obviously I'm not hitting 3 wood out of deep rough idiot" decisions - it has a ton of very difficult decisions!

 

I'd be willing to bet that if we actually measured your distance, your not as far behind as you think. If they are wild, they don't strike well, so they are inconsistent. Our brains remember outliers (wow! look at that one!) and don't remember when they slightly chunk it 225, which is probably what happens more often that a 280 blast. You have to be able to release a clubhead to hit a ball straight, and that means you can hit it hard. Distance and accuracy are not enemies, they go hand in hand - products of a good swing*.

 

*this does not apply to hitting a ball off of a tee with a 460cc driver. you can have distance without accuracy.

[Fade]

The same thing would happen if you started a thread about people who drive it under 150 off the tee. The majority of responses are going to be by, surprise, those people who drive it less than 150 yards.

 

Great post, but I take issue with the above. Even in that imaginary thread, you would have more posters driving it 175 than posters driving it 125, if there are any posters at all. : )

[cardoustie]

Pine,

 

Your assumptions on stats vs early responses is way off. Do you have a stats background at all? The first 5 guys responding could well be able to meet your criteria and then you would want to argue 5 of 5 = 100% of wrx. See the flawed logic?

 

Hitting it 250 carry doesn't mean you are as good as a pro, it means you have speed. It doesn't mean you compress it like a pro or strike it as pure as a pro either. Now some guys with SPEED still have this ability with a 3w off the deck and others don't ... it depends on the strength of their swings. Would you agree that some players are stronger with woods than irons?

 

Thinking about my club last night. Our 18th is 585 from the tips, most guys play it at 530. Anyways, there is a lake right in front of the green that is 50 yards wide - perfect for your scenario

 

I would say out of our core 250 male players there are 8 of us (including myself) that have this shot from a good lie .. and if the golf gods are nice you get a perfect lie in the first cut. Not a bad lie (down in the rough, downhill, tight etc) I would say 4 of the 8 could hit it over the water 8/10 times (not me). We won't talk about hitting the green as tour pro's wouldn't do that on "average" either, we are talking distance

 

Let's call that 3%. And we don't have a lot of good players at our club. One scratch. A club with a load of young stud am's would have a much higher percentage

 

We have one fella that could stand there with beers and cigs, slam a 5w (not a 3w) and hit high floaters on the green ALL DAY LONG. He's a 5 cap, 6'3", 3 hundo +, and a former hockey enforcer. He's a rare gent that can swing 125+ with the driver and be past 350 a lot during his round

 

What if I told you that my scramble team - the other 3 guys could do it every time. 75%. 3 out of 4. Would you agree or argue?

[pinestreetgolf]

Pine,

 

Your assumptions on stats vs early responses is way off. Do you have a stats background at all? The first 5 guys responding could well be able to meet your criteria and then you would want to argue 5 of 5 = 100% of wrx. See the flawed logic?

 

Hitting it 250 carry doesn't mean you are as good as a pro, it means you have speed. It doesn't mean you compress it like a pro or strike it as pure as a pro either. Now some guys with SPEED still have this ability with a 3w off the deck and others don't ... it depends on the strength of their swings. Would you agree that some players are stronger with woods than irons?

 

Thinking about my club last night. Our 18th is 585 from the tips, most guys play it at 530. Anyways, there is a lake right in front of the green that is 50 yards wide - perfect for your scenario

 

I would say out of our core 250 male players there are 8 of us (including myself) that have this shot from a good lie .. and if the golf gods are nice you get a perfect lie in the first cut. Not a bad lie (down in the rough, downhill, tight etc) I would say 4 of the 8 could hit it over the water 8/10 times (not me). We won't talk about hitting the green as tour pro's wouldn't do that on "average" either, we are talking distance

 

Let's call that 3%. And we don't have a lot of good players at our club. One scratch. A club with a load of young stud am's would have a much higher percentage

 

We have one fella that could stand there with beers and cigs, slam a 5w (not a 3w) and hit high floaters on the green ALL DAY LONG. He's a 5 cap, 6'3", 3 hundo +, and a former hockey enforcer. He's a rare gent that can swing 125+ with the driver and be past 350 a lot during his round

 

What if I told you that my scramble team - the other 3 guys could do it every time. 75%. 3 out of 4. Would you agree or argue?

 

First, thanks for a respectful reply.

 

Let me quote the part I take issue with.

 

"Hitting it 250 carry doesn't mean you are as good as a pro, it means you have speed. It doesn't mean you compress it like a pro or strike it as pure as a pro either. Now some guys with SPEED still have this ability with a 3w off the deck and others don't ... it depends on the strength of their swings. Would you agree that some players are stronger with woods than irons?"

 

I have said the following over and over in this thread:

 

1. I believe a ton (probably all) of these people can hit a 3w 250 with a line drive. I do not believe their carry numbers, I *do* believe their total numbers.

2. I do not think carry off the deck is a function of speed. I think its 3rd or 4th on the list. The most important is quality of strike. Again, when we are talking about carry only off the deck (which I am).

3. Compression = carry. Non-compression = hot grounders to short that may roll 260 or 220 depending on where you play and if its raining or not. This means your hands are in front of the ball and you are not scooping it, hitting it 115 mph with the leading edge, and then telling everyone your 3w "goes 270".

4. I believe a ton (probably all) of these people CAN carry a 3w 250. I do not believe they can repeat it consistently. Use "average", "strokes gained", "median", whatever you want.

 

The two key takeaways here are carry and repeat it consistently. That is where I do not believe them. I believe their max. I believe their line drive total distance. I do not believe their carry on average.

 

"Thinking about my club last night. Our 18th is 585 from the tips, most guys play it at 530. Anyways, there is a lake right in front of the green that is 50 yards wide - perfect for your scenario

 

I would say out of our core 250 male players there are 8 of us (including myself) that have this shot from a good lie .. and if the golf gods are nice you get a perfect lie in the first cut. Not a bad lie (down in the rough, downhill, tight etc) I would say 4 of the 8 could hit it over the water 8/10 times (not me). We won't talk about hitting the green as tour pro's wouldn't do that on "average" either, we are talking distance"

 

I'm not entirely clear on the scenario. How far are they driving? How far is it carrying? So 50% of the guys do it 80% of the time? Can you be a bit clearer here? "10% of the time it works 100% of the time".

 

"We have one fella that could stand there with beers and cigs, slam a 5w (not a 3w) and hit high floaters on the green ALL DAY LONG. He's a 5 cap, 6'3", 3 hundo +, and a former hockey enforcer. He's a rare gent that can swing 125+ with the driver and be past 350 a lot during his round"

 

Yep. There are ams out there who can do it. I don't think he can repeat it. Maybe he can. Who knows. As I've said over (and over) I don't know WHICH of you is lying, but I know a whole lot are.

 

"What if I told you that my scramble team - the other 3 guys could do it every time. 75%. 3 out of 4. Would you agree or argue?"

 

Do what, carry a 3 wood off the deck 250 75% of the time during actual rounds? I have no idea. I've said over and over some people can do it. Just not this many. I would bet a whole lot of money you don't play with three guys who can do that, but its not impossible. I bet you play with some really good golfers who don't measure and, as the 2015 study found, remember the shots 35-40% differently then they actually were. This has been studied academically. That's why these arguments are silly. They've studied this. You don't know your own game or your playing partners' game very well unless you are measuring it. Its hard to convince people of that, but its true.

 

EDIT:

 

Didn't see this.

 

Your assumptions on stats vs early responses is way off. Do you have a stats background at all? The first 5 guys responding could well be able to meet your criteria and then you would want to argue 5 of 5 = 100% of wrx. See the flawed logic?

 

I have a significant statistics background (see literally all my other threads). I was a math major undergrad and my business partner has a graduate degree in statistics from UC Berkley. I didn't say 5 out of 5 = 100% of WRX. I said 5 out of 5 is 5 out of 5. I don't believe there are that many people here who can do that. I don't think anyone here has a proper appreciation for *just how difficult it is* to repeat 250 carry off the deck round after round with a 3 wood. I think you have to be an absolutely elite amateur to be able to do that.

 

As I have said over and over (AND OVER) its "possible" that all of these people are elite ballstriking ams who can repeat a 3w 250 carry. Its just very unlikely.

 

Golf is the hardest and best game in the world because you can't trust your own brain. You can't. Your brain doesn't remember golf well, we arn't wired for it. This has been shown academically. Measure it. Put a GPS on your 3 scramble partners for 4-5 rounds and calculate it. If you come out with a CARRY average above 235 i'll be shocked.

[cardoustie]

The members that can do this all swing 110+. One kid is an NHL'r, one kid is a college golfer

 

What if I told you my 3 scramble partners were all +3's or better, as low as +5 for one guy. Still want to bet a whole lot of money?

 

Pine I have no incentive to lie, I'm telling you about real people I know and play a lot with, just to expand your horizons. I'm in a debating mood this aft.

 

I'm an older guy (nearly 50) .. .every time I play an open Am event the field is chock a block of bombers, seems everyone under 30 flies it 285+ in competitive am events. I've stood at my drive in practice rounds at 275-285 from the tee, let guys go thru and they fly it over my head like a drone

[spoonek9]

I've stood at my drive in practice rounds at 275-285 from the tee, let guys go thru and they fly it over my head like a drone

 

Enough to make you sick isn't it!

[mukster]

People on the internet refuting claims that people have made on the internet. On WRX? Never!

[pinestreetgolf]

The members that can do this all swing 110+. One kid is an NHL'r, one kid is a college golfer

 

What if I told you my 3 scramble partners were all +3's or better, as low as +5 for one guy. Still want to bet a whole lot of money?

 

Pine I have no incentive to lie, I'm telling you about real people I know and play a lot with, just to expand your horizons. I'm in a debating mood this aft.

 

I'm an older guy (nearly 50) .. .every time I play an open Am event the field is chock a block of bombers, seems everyone under 30 flies it 285+ in competitive am events. I've stood at my drive in practice rounds at 275-285 from the tee, let guys go thru and they fly it over my head like a drone

 

I said 20+ posters in this thread can't do it. I have no idea if your plus cap buddies can or not (which I said). In fact on page 10 I specifically said anyone +2 or better can do it.

 

You are making the same argument as Roscoe. That because some ams somewhere in the world can do it these people are telling the truth.

 

I keep having to repeat myself. I believe there are amateur players who are that good. I don't believe the guy with the "12" next to his name hits his 3 wood 270. I don't believe the guy earlier hits a 16.5* club 280 "on average". I don't believe that ~78% of this thread is playing in any tournament never mind an elite plus cap.

 

Look we both agree that there are very good ams out there who can "bomb it". We disagree as to the probability that they would have a near 1:1.3 relationship with posters in this thread. As I said a million times, I don't know who is lying (because some can do it) but I do know the chances even half these people are correct isn't very high. I think they are long off the tee and don't realize how much they lose *in carry* off the deck.

 

If you play with +3-5s they can almost certainly do it. I don't believe this many people who happen to be reading this thread can do it because it is very rare.

 

Note: "very rare" isn't a typo for "impossible"

[cardoustie]

I would just like to add that being a + doesn't make it any more feasible. That's my point. Perhaps more likely, though I also know some +'s that are popcorn hitters, bunts down the middle all day

 

FOR EXAMPLE, The big ex hockey enforcer, as a 5, would handle it much more easily than the +3 and +5 players. Would you agree that guys swinging 125 have more chance than a 112 swinger????

 

The +5 weighs about 150 and last time he played my course he was 235 out on 18 and hit a little bitty mizuno 4 iron to 20 feet

[pinestreetgolf]

I would just like to add that being a + doesn't make it any more feasible. That's my point. Perhaps more likely, though I also know some +'s that are popcorn hitters, bunts down the middle all day

 

FOR EXAMPLE, The big ex hockey enforcer, as a 5, would handle it much more easily than the +3 and +5 players. Would you agree that guys swinging 125 have more chance than a 112 swinger????

 

The +5 weighs about 150 and last time he played my course he was 235 out on 18 and hit a little bitty mizuno 4 iron to 20 feet

 

This is the entire dispute in a nutshell.

 

You think average 3 wood carry off the deck is about speed. I think it's about quality of contact over and over. Of course speed matters in average but much less than off the tee or max off the deck.

 

We are talking about average off the deck. If he can strike the ball that well he wouldn't be a 5 cap. Can he do it once in a while? Sure. A third of the time? Maybe. But not repeated enough to be average. If he could make contact that well he wouldn't be a 5 cap.

 

Off the deck 3 woods *carry only* on average are all about consistent excellent contact. Not speed.

 

I play with a similar guy. College baseball player. Can pound the ball but he's a 17. His max is unbelievable and when he catches it he smashes it. But he catches it 10% of the time.

 

Our brains remember outliers. It's possible you are an outlier yourself and one of the few golfers that study found can accurately remember golf

Rounds without measuring. But it's more likely you just remember his long shots and not the slices and duffs.

 

I also have no doubt he hits some screaming clotheslines that go 270 total. That's all about speed. But carry with a 15* club on a consistent basis is a whole 'nother level.

[herdman]

210 when I nut it

[Rosco1216]

Pine,

 

My argument was how you theoretically apply your averages and the 8-10 paragraphs used to explain a simple average application on the course. It was never an argument of if it can be done and however many of the posters claim they can. Some can, some can't.

 

[pinestreetgolf]

Pine,

 

My argument was how you theoretically apply your averages and the 8-10 paragraphs used to explain a simple average application on the course. It was never an argument of if it can be done and however many of the posters claim they can. Some can, some can't.

 

Your argument (correct me if I'm wrong) was that there is a "stock shot" average that a player has to plan shots developed off the course that is not the same as his on-course, computed average if you computed it in a meaningful way. In other words, a player could hit 260 on a launch monitor and if he can hit it sometimes on the course he should hit 260 carry and can claim to average a 260 carry even if his actual carry average in play is, say, 245. You took issue with me defining average as "actual average on shots during play".

 

I don't see how this is different from arguing that there are a ton of ams who can theoretically carry it a long way on average but who don't actually do it on the course, which is what the other gentleman is saying (he isn't, for example, posting any hard data at all from any of these charecters he plays with and we know from the 2015 study that golfers can't remember shots right after a round, nevermind over several years). I don't think he's lying. I think he genuinely thinks he plays with a 5 cap who can hit the ball well enough off the ground to average a 250 *Carry*. He thinks this because of how his memory works.

 

Humans stink at remembering routine golf shots. We are great at remembering really good and really awful ones. Its the reason people say "i always miss 3 footers" when the make rate is, on average, 97% and NOBODY is under 92%. We remember the miss because it is unusual, but if you actually tracked it, you are probably pretty good from that range. Similarly, this hockey player 5 cap probably busts one every other round. Over a few years, it blends together, and you get that image of him in your mind. But it is unbelievably unlikely that someone has the swing to *carry* (not total) 250 off the ground consistently and can't break a 5 cap.

 

I get y'alls position. There are a whole lot of ams who swing fast and hit really, really impressive shots once in a while. But anyone who has actually tracked it (Broadie, study I linked to, etc..) has found that the actual measurements on average during play are significantly less than max for all but absolutely elite players.

 

The other big problem here is we are continually arguing past each other. You guys keep using 250, because it helps your argument (its *just over* the PGA Tour average). If there had been a ton of guys saying 250, I wouldn't have said a word. But some of these are freaking silly. 270 from a 4 cap? 260 from a 12 cap? average carry off the deck? 280 with a 16.5* club then offering a video and completely disappearing? So while you two keep saying "tons of ams can carry it 250" some of the average carries in this thread are reserved for absolutely elite ball-strikers. You have to be incredible to *Average* a 270 carry off the deck*. Unless we have 2013 justin rose and 2015 jason day here posting under pseudonyms they'r'e full of it.

 

*None of this applies to off the tee, where you can get away with 1,000x more swing flaws.

 

Edit: Still waiting for those swing videos.

[slc247]

Pine,

 

My argument was how you theoretically apply your averages and the 8-10 paragraphs used to explain a simple average application on the course. It was never an argument of if it can be done and however many of the posters claim they can. Some can, some can't.

Ill buy you a beer if you stop feeding him.....

[pinestreetgolf]

Pine,

 

My argument was how you theoretically apply your averages and the 8-10 paragraphs used to explain a simple average application on the course. It was never an argument of if it can be done and however many of the posters claim they can. Some can, some can't.

Ill buy you a beer if you stop feeding him.....

 

You should call the police about the guy with the gun to your head making you click on the thread.

[slc247]

Pine,

 

My argument was how you theoretically apply your averages and the 8-10 paragraphs used to explain a simple average application on the course. It was never an argument of if it can be done and however many of the posters claim they can. Some can, some can't.

Ill buy you a beer if you stop feeding him.....

 

You should call the police about the guy with the gun to your head making you click on the thread.

I actually liked the original question, it interests me. You jacked it to your own personal soapbox, seriously you have typed the same thing for 10 pages.

[Christen_The_Sloop]

The average on the PGA Tour for 3 wood distance off the deck (carry and roll) is 243 yards.

 

I do not believe some of you *Average* 250,60 and 70.

 

I believe that you hit that quite a few times, maybe even more than half the time, but there is no chance it is your average.

 

Most of the time when you ask "how far do you hit X club?" or "how far do you drive?" people hear "how far CAN you drive" not "how far is your AVERAGE drive?"

 

Average means every shot is included. You shouldn't feel bad about an actual average of 230. Most golfers don't actually measure and just eyeball, and really good shots are seared into our brain's memories while so-so ones are quickly forgotten. If you actually average 230, you are probably in the top 5% of 3 wood hitters in the world.

 

I know a million people will reply to this and claim they actually do hit it that far, and I have no doubt they "can" - I very much doubt they do it on average. I also very much doubt a few of the posters in this thread who claim to be longer off the tee with their 3 woods than the average for PGA Tour driver carry, which is 274.

 

I have ZERO doubt that they CAN hit it that far, nor do I have any doubt that they sometimes hit it that far. I have zero belief it is their average.

 

 

 

Lot of dudes out there hit the ball further than the average dude on the PGA tour. For example Kevin Na. Guy can't carry my bag, but he can out chip and putt me all day. So what? I hit my three wood 30 yards further and generally to the left, when I'm not hitting it way to the right. But, when I pipe one...

 

I'm sorry if you didn't grow up throwing bails of hay all summer and skating and swimming and just generally being a dude, dude. And I am not that long where I am from...

 

Okay I am.

 

The question is 'How far do you hit your three wood?' If I am 220 out, Its a three iron. 230, Hybrid 19 degree. 240 Hybrid or 3-wood if its into the wind or uphill or something. 250 3-wood, 260 3-wood. Everything after is hit and hope if there's no trouble. Or 7,8,9 iron and a wedge. But, I don't find myself 260 out on par fives all that often, to be honest.

 

A few times last year I hit 3 wood over 300 yards, flat fairways, no wind - Three wood in the signature. Thing's bloody magic. Thinking of putting it up for sale ;)

 

Do you know where you are?

[Golfnut801]

Pine,

 

My argument was how you theoretically apply your averages and the 8-10 paragraphs used to explain a simple average application on the course. It was never an argument of if it can be done and however many of the posters claim they can. Some can, some can't.

Ill buy you a beer if you stop feeding him.....

Pine,

 

My argument was how you theoretically apply your averages and the 8-10 paragraphs used to explain a simple average application on the course. It was never an argument of if it can be done and however many of the posters claim they can. Some can, some can't.

Ill buy you a beer if you stop feeding him.....

Anything that involves anything about distance. Pine and the other guy is there. So even though no one isn't makin you post or read the thread. It's not fair to others that want to contribute to the thread. And answer the original question from the OP. No one needs to read about PGA tour stats and averages on tour. It's irrelevant to us. Knowing what the tour average is and the average Joe's average is. It is not gonna make you a better golfer. But I'm sure pine and the other guy will say other wise.

[SurfDuffer]

Put a GPS on your 3 scramble partners for 4-5 rounds and calculate it. If you come out with a CARRY average above 235 i'll be shocked.

 

So this is the new measure of the average golfer???? My scramble partners????? Most of the scramble partners I wind up with can't even get it out of the tee box. I suppose this would explain many of the posts on this site if that is your only frame of reference. If you never get out and play with good players I suppose you would find it hard to believe that some people can play well and hit it far.

[deadsolid...shank]

To be honest, the long posts quoting endless stats and studies have forced me to stop reading them. They all say the same thing. I really don't care about what the studies say. Guess what, a recent study says that if look long enough, you can find a study that will support pretty much anything you want. ��

 

It's like Sloop said a couple of posts above, if people are willing to go after a shot that requires a 250 yard carryover a hazard, then (unless they're just being foolish) it's probably because they're confident they can do it. And do it on a somewhat consistent (i.e. Average) basis. The reason they're confident they can pull that shot off? Because they've done it, numerous times.

 

And contrary to the "studies", most good players do know how far the ball goes, both on good and not so good strikes. That stuff about people"forgetting", maybe the higher handicap does on occasion, but people don't get to be low handicaps by overestimating their distances. They get to be low by knowing how far the ball will go on a good, solid strike. And they play for that number.

 

I don't like to get into the distance numbers on here for a couple of reasons. 1: I play at almost 4'000 elevation so I know my numbers are a bit inflated, so not as viable and 2: I've never been in the landing area when my 3 wood(or any other club for that matter) lands, so I don't know exactly how far each club carries (but I've got 30+ years of experience to make a pretty educated estimate).

What I do know is this: I'm 53 years old and swing driver roughly in the 105mph range, and I have landed it on the green (numerous times) from 250+ yards out. So it's very doable. Would I try to carry it that far over a hazard? No, because I know that it takes a perfect set of conditions along with a perfect (for me)strike to do it. Not worth the risk.

 

But here's the thing. How many people out there are younger, faster, stronger, and hit it better and more consistently than I do? It's a BIG, BIG number. There's a bunch of them already posting in this thread. If a very average middle aged man can do it on occasion,why is it so hard to believe that there are a bunch of people that can do it on a consistent (or average) basis?

[pinestreetgolf]

Put a GPS on your 3 scramble partners for 4-5 rounds and calculate it. If you come out with a CARRY average above 235 i'll be shocked.

 

So this is the new measure of the average golfer???? My scramble partners????? Most of the scramble partners I wind up with can't even get it out of the tee box. I suppose this would explain many of the posts on this site if that is your only frame of reference. If you never get out and play with good players I suppose you would find it hard to believe that some people can play well and hit it far.

 

The post I was responding to the gentleman specifically said that his scramble partners (3 out of 4, just not him) could carry a 3 wood 250 on average. Obviously I don't mean everyone's scramble partners in the entire world. That would be ridiculous.

 

Anything that involves anything about distance. Pine and the other guy is there. So even though no one isn't makin you post or read the thread. It's not fair to others that want to contribute to the thread. And answer the original question from the OP. No one needs to read about PGA tour stats and averages on tour. It's irrelevant to us. Knowing what the tour average is and the average Joe's average is. It is not gonna make you a better golfer. But I'm sure pine and the other guy will say other wise.

 

A *perfect* example of horrible memories! I've posted in exactly two distance threads. One on the driver where I actually *defended* all the huge distance claims (because off a tee its fairly easy to hit a ball a long way) and once I attacked distance claims (because its much harder off the deck). Yet because you are really upset about this one, you think I "always" do it. You could maybe stretch it to three if you count the "Should I hit my 3 wood" thread, but that has nothing to do with distance really and more with tactics.

 

I've literally posted in distance threads twice.

 

Your brain only remembers when you get really happy or really mad. This is a perfect example. A 100% perfect example. Just like you think I "always" post in distance threads (I don't), these jokers think they "always" hit their woods better than a touring professional. Nope. You are mad at this thread for some reason, so I "always" do it. You are super impressed (not literally you, the royal you) by a big three wood off the deck and it is seared into your memory and that person is put into the mental category of "long hitter". Its how the human brain processes things. The 2015 study (linked to earlier) is fairly irrefutable.

 

But, yeah, I don't "always" do it. I've done it twice and the other time was off the tee and I was defending the distance claims. This is a PERFECT example of why people think their 3 wood average is 25 yards longer than it is - memories don't work well with emotion.

 

This must have been another Golfnut in this thread - http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1398616-how-honest-are-you/page__st__30 - saying people exaggerate their distance on the boards here to make them feel better about themselves. In a quick search, you've posted in way more distance threads than I have and you are generally throwing cold water. Someone stole your username!

[pinestreetgolf]

To be honest, the long posts quoting endless stats and studies have forced me to stop reading them. They all say the same thing. I really don't care about what the studies say. Guess what, a recent study says that if look long enough, you can find a study that will support pretty much anything you want. ��

 

It's like Sloop said a couple of posts above, if people are willing to go after a shot that requires a 250 yard carryover a hazard, then (unless they're just being foolish) it's probably because they're confident they can do it. And do it on a somewhat consistent (i.e. Average) basis. The reason they're confident they can pull that shot off? Because they've done it, numerous times.

 

And contrary to the "studies", most good players do know how far the ball goes, both on good and not so good strikes. That stuff about people"forgetting", maybe the higher handicap does on occasion, but people don't get to be low handicaps by overestimating their distances. They get to be low by knowing how far the ball will go on a good, solid strike. And they play for that number.

 

I don't like to get into the distance numbers on here for a couple of reasons. 1: I play at almost 4'000 elevation so I know my numbers are a bit inflated, so not as viable and 2: I've never been in the landing area when my 3 wood(or any other club for that matter) lands, so I don't know exactly how far each club carries (but I've got 30+ years of experience to make a pretty educated estimate).

What I do know is this: I'm 53 years old and swing driver roughly in the 105mph range, and I have landed it on the green (numerous times) from 250+ yards out. So it's very doable. Would I try to carry it that far over a hazard? No, because I know that it takes a perfect set of conditions along with a perfect (for me)strike to do it. Not worth the risk.

 

But here's the thing. How many people out there are younger, faster, stronger, and hit it better and more consistently than I do? It's a BIG, BIG number. There's a bunch of them already posting in this thread. If a very average middle aged man can do it on occasion,why is it so hard to believe that there are a bunch of people that can do it on a consistent (or average) basis?

 

Fair enough, I guess. Since you can find a study for pretty much anything, I'd ask you to link to one that says golfers have great memories. However, if your position is "screw the research, I know what I know" then not much left to say.

 

The low cappers are good for the same reason they can make putts despite reading about 9 inches too little break on average. They can use their subconscious to get around with clubs that they overestimate. Low-cap ams are very very precise off the tee and with short irons. With aiming the putter and carry in low irons and 3 wood they are awful at diagnosing their own games.

 

But, like I said, if its "F the study, I know what I know" then not much left to say.

 

In the other thread where I got into a massive argument based on particular study (the Ditch the 3W? Thread) people were open to the idea that maybe - just maybe - they didn't have it all figured out and that people who dedicated multiple years of their lives to studying this *just might* know more. Much less open minded on this topic. Probably because it attacks masculinity somehow.

[swizbeatz]

Taking weather out as a factor I carry a driver 260 and a 3 wood 240 on my best strike. Had to go to 17.5* to maximize carry.

[Golfnut801]

Put a GPS on your 3 scramble partners for 4-5 rounds and calculate it. If you come out with a CARRY average above 235 i'll be shocked.

 

So this is the new measure of the average golfer???? My scramble partners????? Most of the scramble partners I wind up with can't even get it out of the tee box. I suppose this would explain many of the posts on this site if that is your only frame of reference. If you never get out and play with good players I suppose you would find it hard to believe that some people can play well and hit it far.

 

The post I was responding to the gentleman specifically said that his scramble partners (3 out of 4, just not him) could carry a 3 wood 250 on average. Obviously I don't mean everyone's scramble partners in the entire world. That would be ridiculous.

 

Anything that involves anything about distance. Pine and the other guy is there. So even though no one isn't makin you post or read the thread. It's not fair to others that want to contribute to the thread. And answer the original question from the OP. No one needs to read about PGA tour stats and averages on tour. It's irrelevant to us. Knowing what the tour average is and the average Joe's average is. It is not gonna make you a better golfer. But I'm sure pine and the other guy will say other wise.

 

A *perfect* example of horrible memories! I've posted in exactly two distance threads. One on the driver where I actually *defended* all the huge distance claims (because off a tee its fairly easy to hit a ball a long way) and once I attacked distance claims (because its much harder off the deck). Yet because you are really upset about this one, you think I "always" do it. You could maybe stretch it to three if you count the "Should I hit my 3 wood" thread, but that has nothing to do with distance really and more with tactics.

 

I've literally posted in distance threads twice.

 

Your brain only remembers when you get really happy or really mad. This is a perfect example. A 100% perfect example. Just like you think I "always" post in distance threads (I don't), these jokers think they "always" hit their woods better than a touring professional. Nope. You are mad at this thread for some reason, so I "always" do it. You are super impressed (not literally you, the royal you) by a big three wood off the deck and it is seared into your memory and that person is put into the mental category of "long hitter". Its how the human brain processes things. The 2015 study (linked to earlier) is fairly irrefutable.

 

But, yeah, I don't "always" do it. I've done it twice and the other time was off the tee and I was defending the distance claims. This is a PERFECT example of why people think their 3 wood average is 25 yards longer than it is - memories don't work well with emotion.

 

This must have been another Golfnut in this thread - http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1398616-how-honest-are-you/page__st__30 - saying people exaggerate their distance on the boards here to make them feel better about themselves. In a quick search, you've posted in way more distance threads than I have and you are generally throwing cold water. Someone stole your username!

Thats cute, you went back and did homework. I've changed my view since then. So yeah, that is now irrelevant. Like I said before. A former member by the name of Kevin something. I honestly can't remember his username exactly made me realize that. You honestly reminded me of myself once. But not anymore, good luck to yourself.

 

Are you serious pinestreetgolf? You brought up that thread? The thread where I only posted like twice in. The thread that I answered accordingly to. What is wrong with you? I was seriously hoping you brought up the thread about the member that said can consistently carry the ball over 300 yards. That's the thread I was an a****** in. You failed, and fell on your face hard. Keeping doing your homework about me. It's not hard.

[deadsolid...shank]

To be honest, the long posts quoting endless stats and studies have forced me to stop reading them. They all say the same thing. I really don't care about what the studies say. Guess what, a recent study says that if look long enough, you can find a study that will support pretty much anything you want. ��

 

It's like Sloop said a couple of posts above, if people are willing to go after a shot that requires a 250 yard carryover a hazard, then (unless they're just being foolish) it's probably because they're confident they can do it. And do it on a somewhat consistent (i.e. Average) basis. The reason they're confident they can pull that shot off? Because they've done it, numerous times.

 

And contrary to the "studies", most good players do know how far the ball goes, both on good and not so good strikes. That stuff about people"forgetting", maybe the higher handicap does on occasion, but people don't get to be low handicaps by overestimating their distances. They get to be low by knowing how far the ball will go on a good, solid strike. And they play for that number.

 

I don't like to get into the distance numbers on here for a couple of reasons. 1: I play at almost 4'000 elevation so I know my numbers are a bit inflated, so not as viable and 2: I've never been in the landing area when my 3 wood(or any other club for that matter) lands, so I don't know exactly how far each club carries (but I've got 30+ years of experience to make a pretty educated estimate).

What I do know is this: I'm 53 years old and swing driver roughly in the 105mph range, and I have landed it on the green (numerous times) from 250+ yards out. So it's very doable. Would I try to carry it that far over a hazard? No, because I know that it takes a perfect set of conditions along with a perfect (for me)strike to do it. Not worth the risk.

 

But here's the thing. How many people out there are younger, faster, stronger, and hit it better and more consistently than I do? It's a BIG, BIG number. There's a bunch of them already posting in this thread. If a very average middle aged man can do it on occasion,why is it so hard to believe that there are a bunch of people that can do it on a consistent (or average) basis?

 

Fair enough, I guess. Since you can find a study for pretty much anything, I'd ask you to link to one that says golfers have great memories. However, if your position is "screw the research, I know what I know" then not much left to say.

 

The low cappers are good for the same reason they can make putts despite reading about 9 inches too little break on average. They can use their subconscious to get around with clubs that they overestimate. Low-cap ams are very very precise off the tee and with short irons. With aiming the putter and carry in low irons and 3 wood they are awful at diagnosing their own games.

 

But, like I said, if its "F the study, I know what I know" then not much left to say.

 

In the other thread where I got into a massive argument based on particular study (the Ditch the 3W? Thread) people were open to the idea that maybe - just maybe - they didn't have it all figured out and that people who dedicated multiple years of their lives to studying this *just might* know more. Much less open minded on this topic. Probably because it attacks masculinity somehow.

 

Doesn't have a thing to do with masculinity. It has a lot to do with my feelings on "studies". And yes, I do know what I know, when it comes to my own golf game, much like many of the posters in this thread.

 

They can conclude whatever they want, I go through each and every shot after virtually every round. And do it very objectively. I know how far I had on each shot, and I know the result. When the GPS and Laser both tell me I have 165 yards to the pin and my ball mark is pin high, I know how far it went.

 

I don't have " everything figured out", but when it comes to my own game, their "dedicated years of their lives to studying" don't hold a candle to my own 30 years of experience at playing my own game.

 

Sorry Pine, your responses are well thought out, well written, and very respectfully presented, and you stay very calm in presenting them. That is very refreshing here, but "studies" are a hot button for me. The amount of money wasted on what is crap. Really, people have spent years studying golfers to see if they accurately remember their shots?!

[deadsolid...shank]

You're a good player Pine. How do you choose which club to hit?

 

Based on your own experiences that have determined how far each club goes?

 

Or on someone else's study?

 

They've concluded that we all only remember our good shots, or we don't accurately remember distances.

 

So how do YOU choose a club?