Could Augusta National Have a Local Rule Banning Leaving the Pin In?

[Walter]

Does anyone know the reasoning/history behind the old rule, i.e. why was it considered essential that the flag be removed for putting, and when was it enacted?

There's a discussion of the flagstick here:

http://www.ruleshistory.com/green.html

For most of the known history of the rules, you had to remove the flag when you got within 20 yards. When maintenance standards improved, a definition of the "putting green" was developed, and the old 20-yard criteria changed. For 12 years (1956-1968), the penalty for hitting the flag with a shot from the putting green was removed.

Rules have always been a little different for match play.

My best guess, when golf developed, they simply dug a series of holes somewhere "out there". There was no standard hole size, no hole liner, and no flags. The putting area wasn't maintained much differently than the rest of the course. The game developed with the goal of putting the ball into the hole. The flag was a later addition, to help players find the hole (still guessing here), but as such an addition was probably looked at as some kind of obstruction that should be removed, to maintain the goal of getting the ball into the hole.

 

Nice observation Dave!! and great link / site !!

[bladehunter]

Real question is why was the rule changed in 56 and changed again in 68? Politics ?

[ThinkingPlus]

Real question is why was the rule changed in 56 and changed again in 68? Politics ?

Or why was it really changed in 2019? Conspiracy theory is to divert attention away from other RB rules blunders. It's the shiny object. LOL!

[bladehunter]

Real question is why was the rule changed in 56 and changed again in 68? Politics ?

Or why was it really changed in 2019? Conspiracy theory is to divert attention away from other RB rules blunders. It's the shiny object. LOL!

 

Oh yea. A carrot for the masses who already did leave it in I’d say.

[bkloess]

With how fast those greens roll, for sure they would want that rule lifted for the tournament. Will the PGA change it for the Masters though? I doubt it. It would set a precedent. You can't have a series of rules changed just for the majors and not the other tournaments.

[nsxguy]

Real question is why was the rule changed in 56 and changed again in 68? Politics ?

Or why was it really changed in 2019? Conspiracy theory is to divert attention away from other RB rules blunders. It's the shiny object. LOL!

 

You can't distract bladehunter THAT easily !!! :lol:

[new2g0lf]

Real question is why was the rule changed in 56 and changed again in 68? Politics ?

Or why was it really changed in 2019? Conspiracy theory is to divert attention away from other RB rules blunders. It's the shiny object. LOL!

 

Oh yea. A carrot for the masses who already did leave it in I'd say.

 

I believe they thought the majority would be happy with leaving the stick in and never considered that studies on putting percentages with pin in and out could makes things worse than they were. Most guys I know that putted with the stick in are lazy or partially disabled, they'd get it close to the stick and pick up the ball. I think the USGA over estimated how many non-competitive lazy or partially disabled golfers there are. The rule is now viewed as something that can provide a golfer with a putting advantage and they are using it to their benefit which isn't having the desired effect of speeding up rounds.

[ThinkingPlus]

Real question is why was the rule changed in 56 and changed again in 68? Politics ?

Or why was it really changed in 2019? Conspiracy theory is to divert attention away from other RB rules blunders. It's the shiny object. LOL!

 

Oh yea. A carrot for the masses who already did leave it in I'd say.

 

I believe they thought the majority would be happy with leaving the stick in and never considered that studies on putting percentages with pin in and out could makes things worse than they were. Most guys I know that putted with the stick in are lazy or partially disabled, they'd get it close to the stick and pick up the ball. I think the USGA over estimated how many non-competitive lazy or partially disabled golfers there are. The rule is now viewed as something that can provide a golfer with a putting advantage and they are using it to their benefit which isn't having the desired effect of speeding up rounds.

Don't forget; "USGA thought" is an oxymoron. :swoon:

[bladehunter]

Real question is why was the rule changed in 56 and changed again in 68? Politics ?

Or why was it really changed in 2019? Conspiracy theory is to divert attention away from other RB rules blunders. It's the shiny object. LOL!

 

Oh yea. A carrot for the masses who already did leave it in I'd say.

 

I believe they thought the majority would be happy with leaving the stick in and never considered that studies on putting percentages with pin in and out could makes things worse than they were. Most guys I know that putted with the stick in are lazy or partially disabled, they'd get it close to the stick and pick up the ball. I think the USGA over estimated how many non-competitive lazy or partially disabled golfers there are. The rule is now viewed as something that can provide a golfer with a putting advantage and they are using it to their benefit which isn't having the desired effect of speeding up rounds.

 

Yep. And I agree completely. Wonder if it was changed originally and reversed once they saw no help in pace of play . ? Those that want it in all the time mostly already did this. The actual competitive rounds played aren’t very likely to have a consensus of 3-4 players all wanting the same. So it’s in and out constantly. The real world is working just like what we see on tv. A few want it in and that is slowing down groups because we don’t have caddies to pull it out and put it back. The groups who already didn’t putt out or pull the pin are....... still doing the same.

[redfirebird08]

With how fast those greens roll, for sure they would want that rule lifted for the tournament. Will the PGA change it for the Masters though? I doubt it. It would set a precedent. You can't have a series of rules changed just for the majors and not the other tournaments.

 

The PGA has no control over The Masters. Augusta National has total control of how the tournament is played. I would be shocked if Augusta goes against the USGA on this, especially since their current chairman has very deep ties to the USGA. He was President of the USGA at one point.

[Vindog]

With how fast those greens roll, for sure they would want that rule lifted for the tournament. Will the PGA change it for the Masters though? I doubt it. It would set a precedent. You can't have a series of rules changed just for the majors and not the other tournaments.

 

The PGA has no control over The Masters. Augusta National has total control of how the tournament is played. I would be shocked if Augusta goes against the USGA on this, especially since their current chairman has very deep ties to the USGA. He was President of the USGA at one point.

 

I think people want, maybe even need, someone to stick it to the big bad USGA. They view ANGC as the only entity Big Brother enough to be able to do so. It's just that this big brother isn't about to take up that battle.

[SurfDuffer]

The Augusta grounds crew should cut the holes so the flags lean ever so slightly so that they guard the hole from the most likely direction of putts.

[kro88]

Does anybody really think Fred Ridley is going to turn his back on the USGA?

 

Totally agree here - no way he turns on Mike Davis like that. I think they even mentioned the goal is to be aligned with how other competitions are governed.

 

Plus - the folks at Augusta are smarter than that. if anything they'll bring in a flag stick or have one created that is not favorable to being left in (with higher COR), which will force players to just pull the pin anyways.

 

"sure players can leave the flag stick in, but they'll quickly realize that there is no advantage to do so here at Augusta National"

 

and to be clear - I am totally OK with this move

[smashdn]

I still say if the flag was removed all together our collective handicaps would drop 2-4 strokes. 95% of us (golfers not wrxers) have no business aiming at the hole until we are close enough to the green to see it without the flag.

[davep043]

I still say if the flag was removed all together our collective handicaps would drop 2-4 strokes. 95% of us (golfers not wrxers) have no business aiming at the hole until we are close enough to the green to see it without the flag.

True, but the guys playing at Augusta (the original topic of this thread) are a little better than even the best of the WRXers.

[nandy]

I definitely would not want to see them go to higher COR flagsticks in order to "encourage" taking the pins out, because that reduces likelihood of holing out!

[davep043]

I definitely would not want to see them go to higher COR flagsticks in order to "encourage" taking the pins out, because that reduces likelihood of holing out!

Life is nothing but a series of trade-offs. If the Committee has the goal of minimizing the number of times the flagstick is left in while putting, selection of a specific flagstick (maximum diameter, heavier, higher COR) is one of the few ways to achieve that within the rules. I don't think its a huge difference for full-swing shots, we don't see a ton of hole-outs with the "normal" flagsticks.

[new2g0lf]

I definitely would not want to see them go to higher COR flagsticks in order to "encourage" taking the pins out, because that reduces likelihood of holing out!

Life is nothing but a series of trade-offs. If the Committee has the goal of minimizing the number of times the flagstick is left in while putting, selection of a specific flagstick (maximum diameter, heavier, higher COR) is one of the few ways to achieve that within the rules. I don't think its a huge difference for full-swing shots, we don't see a ton of hole-outs with the "normal" flagsticks.

 

I'm guessing players will determine their strategy based on the their findings during the practice rounds.

[golfr19]

I like that Augusta is able to make local rules as it deems necessary. I have to say it will be odd watching flags left in there...there's something different about the Masters.

[scratchkelly]

In think they should go against the usga/r&a and not allow it. Why? It was created in an effort to speed play even when they knew it gave an advantage in putting results. Here's my albeit humble experience in 3 rounds with all single digit handicap players ( friends since college golf) : it slowed play! With or without caddies it slowed play. 2 guys want it in 2 guys want it out. Only solution we came up with was to forgo the furthest from the pin goes first rule and let those that want it in putt first. Wouldn't work in Match play or serious betting games but it did seem to correct the slower down play of our first 2 rounds. Don't know if this is what others are discovering during play? Would be curious to hear. Having spent many days at the masters I couldn't imagine some of the slower players in a group going back and forth with caddies, pin no pin .

[nsxguy]

In think they should go against the usga/r&a and not allow it. Why? It was created in an effort to speed play even when they knew it gave an advantage in putting results. Here's my albeit humble experience in 3 rounds with all single digit handicap players ( friends since college golf) : it slowed play! With or without caddies it slowed play. 2 guys want it in 2 guys want it out. Only solution we came up with was to forgo the furthest from the pin goes first rule and let those that want it in putt first. Wouldn't work in Match play or serious betting games but it did seem to correct the slower down play of our first 2 rounds. Don't know if this is what others are discovering during play? Would be curious to hear. Having spent many days at the masters I couldn't imagine some of the slower players in a group going back and forth with caddies, pin no pin .

 

It's a process. You'll get used to it.

 

The players and caddies on Tour already have the process down pat.

[Rangeballz]

I still say if the flag was removed all together our collective handicaps would drop 2-4 strokes. 95% of us (golfers not wrxers) have no business aiming at the hole until we are close enough to the green to see it without the flag.

 

While I agree not aiming at the hole can be beneficial, the flag for me sometimes helps to provide needed depth perception.

[zebra2955]

Absolutely they could

 

Anyone can make their own changes to the Rules. Then of course, you are not playing Golf. Just a game that resembles it.

 

What game is football? Youth, high school, NCAA, NFL, CFL?

 

What game is basketball? Youth, high school, NCAA, Euro, NBA?

 

What is baseball? Youth, high school, NCAA, MLB?

 

All other sports have different rule subsets and I think most would consider it them all to be the same sport. I don’t see why golf has to play by the same rules for every level or event. It would still be golf if AN made some rule improvements, the USGA doesn’t own golf.

NBA is not basketball.

 

NBA = Not Basketball@ All

[PaulCar65]

In think they should go against the usga/r&a and not allow it. Why? It was created in an effort to speed play even when they knew it gave an advantage in putting results. Here's my albeit humble experience in 3 rounds with all single digit handicap players ( friends since college golf) : it slowed play! With or without caddies it slowed play. 2 guys want it in 2 guys want it out. Only solution we came up with was to forgo the furthest from the pin goes first rule and let those that want it in putt first. Wouldn't work in Match play or serious betting games but it did seem to correct the slower down play of our first 2 rounds. Don't know if this is what others are discovering during play? Would be curious to hear. Having spent many days at the masters I couldn't imagine some of the slower players in a group going back and forth with caddies, pin no pin .

How long is it taking you to pull or put the flag back in? Shouldn’t take more than a few seconds.

[davep043]

In think they should go against the usga/r&a and not allow it. Why? It was created in an effort to speed play even when they knew it gave an advantage in putting results. Here's my albeit humble experience in 3 rounds with all single digit handicap players ( friends since college golf) : it slowed play! With or without caddies it slowed play. 2 guys want it in 2 guys want it out. Only solution we came up with was to forgo the furthest from the pin goes first rule and let those that want it in putt first. Wouldn't work in Match play or serious betting games but it did seem to correct the slower down play of our first 2 rounds. Don't know if this is what others are discovering during play? Would be curious to hear. Having spent many days at the masters I couldn't imagine some of the slower players in a group going back and forth with caddies, pin no pin .

How long is it taking you to pull or put the flag back in? Shouldn't take more than a few seconds.

I'm with you. If I'm closest, and I pull it for player 1, I can have it back in long before player 2 is ready to putt. There's no reason you can't play just as fast as before, as long as you pay attention and communicate.

[HitEmTrue]

I still say if the flag was removed all together our collective handicaps would drop 2-4 strokes. 95% of us (golfers not wrxers) have no business aiming at the hole until we are close enough to the green to see it without the flag.

 

Let's assume you are correct for longer distance shots....when I've got a wedge in my hand, I need to know where the flag is.

 

< edit >

And I'm not even that good of a golfer, by wrxer standards. :)

[skykingg]

Well, with the speed of the greens and the kind of trouble bad bounces can give at Augusta, it might be interesting to see what happens when something hits a flagstick off center. It could be qute entertaining.

[6hcphacker]

Not sure this is even a consideration for them. Why would they stray from an official rule of golf, by ALL the governing bodies. That tournament tries to be the very definition of what the game is, I just cant see how they go against it becasue they "feel" it is the right thing to do. Time goes on, things change, it happens. Or maybe they force the flagstick out but let a caddie help read a putt...interesting trade-off???

[smashdn]

I still say if the flag was removed all together our collective handicaps would drop 2-4 strokes. 95% of us (golfers not wrxers) have no business aiming at the hole until we are close enough to the green to see it without the flag.

True, but the guys playing at Augusta (the original topic of this thread) are a little better than even the best of the WRXers.

 

Blasphemer.

 

 

I still say if the flag was removed all together our collective handicaps would drop 2-4 strokes. 95% of us (golfers not wrxers) have no business aiming at the hole until we are close enough to the green to see it without the flag.

 

Let's assume you are correct for longer distance shots....when I've got a wedge in my hand, I need to know where the flag is.

 

< edit >

And I'm not even that good of a golfer, by wrxer standards. :)

 

I think Lowest Shot Wins has the data that supports it. Might be Broadie's data re-used in that book.

 

Want to say something to the effect of "outside of 50 yards and in, all but single digit handicaps are better off going for the center of the green." Inside of 50 yards there is a pretty good chance you can see where the hole is cut barring circumstances where the surface is hidden.

 

I haven't exercised the recommendation but I will this year. I do agree that the flag stick can aid in depth perception.

[Roadking2003]

Does anybody really think Fred Ridley is going to turn his back on the USGA?

 

Totally agree here - no way he turns on Mike Davis like that. I think they even mentioned the goal is to be aligned with how other competitions are governed.

 

Plus - the folks at Augusta are smarter than that. if anything they'll bring in a flag stick or have one created that is not favorable to being left in (with higher COR), which will force players to just pull the pin anyways.

 

"sure players can leave the flag stick in, but they'll quickly realize that there is no advantage to do so here at Augusta National"

 

and to be clear - I am totally OK with this move

 

Why do you think ANGC would have any issue at all with the new rule?