Why is the PGA Championship still a Major?

[bscinstnct]

Consider

 

Tom Watson and The King both played the PGA Champ many times and never won it. It’s the one missing from their career grand slams.

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

> @LICC said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @lawsonman said:

> > > Why is the PGA still considered a Major? It's like I used to tell my kids, because we said so!

> >

> > This is true. Designating majors doesn't need a defense. They are majors because the golf world says they are. And now that we all agree, the players also consider them majors.

>

> It was a major because it was the championship of the top Tour players. It no longer is the championship of the top Tour layers. Hasn’t been for 50 years. So other than It’s a major because people say it is, what is the rationale? Strength of field? Ok, but other fields are as strong or stronger. History? Not the best reason but ok. What else?

>

 

Oh just knock it off already! Geez.

[braincramp52]

> @LICC said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @lawsonman said:

> > > Why is the PGA still considered a Major? It's like I used to tell my kids, because we said so!

> >

> > This is true. Designating majors doesn't need a defense. They are majors because the golf world says they are. And now that we all agree, the players also consider them majors.

>

> It was a major because it was the championship of the top Tour players. It no longer is the championship of the top Tour layers. Hasn’t been for 50 years. So other than It’s a major because people say it is, what is the rationale? Strength of field? Ok, but other fields are as strong or stronger. History? Not the best reason but ok. What else?

>

 

I think a better question is, why does this bother you so much?

[cdnglf]

> @LICC said:

> > @cdnglf said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > The PGA has 4th rung status among general golf fans. And while generally all PGA Tour events are held at well-conditioned good courses, the other majors usually are held at outstanding, best-in-the-world at the highest level courses (the USGA had a few missed but usually has incredible venues). The PGA? It's gotten better courses in its rotation but does Quail Hollow, Trump Bedminster, Valhalla, Bellerive, Hazeltine, Atlanta Athletic Club, etc. really make you think of the best courses in the world?

> > >

> >

> > What alternative are you proposing?

> > That there should only be 3 majors?

> > That the Players (which is played on the same course every year) should somehow replace the PGA?

> > That some other tournament should somehow replace the PGA?

>

> I am proposing that those who say the new schedule is bad because with the Open as the last major the season is over, are misguided. There are top tournaments that really are as good or better than the PGA both before and after the majors that provide great events for fans to watch.

> As to your other questions, I hadn't proposed anything. I think if the PGA Tour changed the format of the Tour Championship (bigger fields, rotating world class venues, no handicapping) that it could replace the PGA as a major, but I don't see that happening.

 

There are some good events before and after the majors, but they aren't as good as the PGA Championship. The Players is the only non-major close to as good as the PGA.

[PappyVanWinkle53]

I think the last several PGA Championships have been on great courses, have produced outstanding golf, and have added plenty of drama. Isn't that what we are looking for.....2016: Jimmy Walker holing out front the bunker to help him hang on to win at Baltusrol; 2017: Justin Thomas' taking the aggressive line on the par-3 17th at Quail Hollow for birdie is what gave him the W; 2018: BK beating out Tiger in a kind of New Guard vs. Old Guard battle was great; 2019: BK nearly blowing a big lead and having the top 2 golfers in the world going at it late in the tourney made what was going to be a snoozefest into a nail biter. This may be "recency bias", but to me, the PGA stands head and shoulders above every other event during the season, except for maybe the Players. Yes, it seems to lose its luster alongside the Masters, The Open and the US Open.....but the PGA certainly has history and pedigree, and I'd argue it is on the up right now. Plus, even if it is the 4th best tournament......the 4th place finisher for Miss America is still pretty friggin amazing!!!

[dalehead]

The PGA is considered a major because it has a long history going back to 1916. Every great American, and most foreign professionals since then have competed for it, with many iconic names winning it. It has been played on some of the greatest courses in America. Like the US Open and The Open it is the championship of a major golf organization, the PGA of America. Finally it is a major because the public, the press, Jack Nicklaus, and Tiger Woods consider it a major.

Consider the Players. It has a short history. It is played on a terrible, manufactured golf course, which if it had a non-gimmicky 17th hole wouldn’t be memorable at all. Iconic winners? Some, but more than it’s share of journeymen, no names, and one hit wonders.

The Tour Championship? No history. Played on a course that if it weren’t for its association with Bobby Jones wouldn’t even get a tour stop.

And riddle me this. What is the Players champion the champion of? The PGA Tour? Then what is the Tour Champion champion of?

[LICC]

@dalehead and @Crazyaboutgolf thanks for the good replies! I would say recent courses have been a mixed bag, some great, some good, some non-distinct. Overall the courses haven’t been as good as the other majors but the PGA has improved. Bethpage was a home run. The tournaments themselves have been very well run and fun to watch. The winners have probably a similar mix of top players and journeymen as the Players Championship. Have you played Sawgrass? It’s a great course by an iconic designer. The history and importance of the organization are valid factors in support. But there is also some serious negative racist history of the PGA and by extension the exclusionary history of the PGA Championship if you want to go down that road. Lots of tournaments have great history. The Players has a great 40+ year history too. It has as much history now as the PGA had when the Tour broke off from the PGA.

 

As I started this discussion due to some complaining that the golf season is meaningless outside of majors, it strikes me that if people weren’t fed the narrative of “majors” they would value some of these other tournaments just as much as the PGA, because there isn’t much that makes the PGA Championship that much different.

[imakaveli]

Cause their trophy is bigger

[Vindog]

I can't say anything about this topic that hasn't been said over the years, but man OP's data links are terrible> @LICC said:

> > @bermuda said:

> > The question should be what is the Tour Championship the championship of? It has a 30-man field. The winner of it is not necessarily the FedEx champion or the player of the year. If the Tour Championship is the championship of the PGA Tour, what is The Players the championship of?

> >

> > Here's how the modern four majors got designated:

> > After winning the 1960 Masters with a fantastic finish, Palmer spoke about wanting to win the U.S. Open and PGA Championship. He didn't mention it at Augusta, but because the British Open was going to be played at St. Andrews, he had that tournament on his schedule from the start of the year. Two days after Palmer won the Masters, Mercer Bailey of the Associated Press wrote that Palmer "has charted a course which could carry him to the biggest grand slam in golf since Bobby Jones' feat in 1930."

> > [https://www.golfdigest.com/story/golf_bob_drum_bill_fields](https://www.golfdigest.com/story/golf_bob_drum_bill_fields "https://www.golfdigest.com/story/golf_bob_drum_bill_fields")

> >

> > It wasn't people or organizations saying we want this tournament to be a major or we don't want that tournament to be a major. You could say majors are the tournaments people care who wins. I've been a golf fan for more than 40 years. I don't give a flip who wins The Players, the Tour Championship or the FedEx Cup. Those are paychecks. The majors are history.

> >

>

> Actually that Arnold Palmer story is how the modern term "Grand Slam" came about. Not the four majors. They had already been considered majors by then.

> The term Major really came about through golf writers and the press. But none of this answers why you place more importance on the PGA Championship than the Players, other than the media has told you that the PGA is a "Major".

 

The PGA is a chamonship of a governing body that has held the tournament through much of American golf's history.

The Players is gimmick tournament on a gimmick course run by an entertainment conglomerate that uses money as it's only draw, and even then many top players (particularly the International players) have historically skipped the tournament.

 

How many OWGR top10 players skip skip the PGA, or The Masters, The Open, The US Open. > @LICC said:

> @dalehead and @Crazyaboutgolf thanks for the good replies! I would say recent courses have been a mixed bag, some great, some good, some non-distinct. Overall the courses haven’t been as good as the other majors but the PGA has improved. Bethpage was a home run. The tournaments themselves have been very well run and fun to watch. The winners have probably a similar mix of top players and journeymen as the Players Championship. Have you played Sawgrass? It’s a great course by an iconic designer. The history and importance of the organization are valid factors in support. But there is also some serious negative racist history of the PGA and by extension the exclusionary history of the PGA Championship if you want to go down that road. Lots of tournaments have great history. The Players has a great 40+ year history too. It has as much history now as the PGA had when the Tour broke off from the PGA.

>

> As I started this discussion due to some complaining that the golf season is meaningless outside of majors, it strikes me that if people weren’t fed the narrative of “majors” they would value some of these other tournaments just as much as the PGA, because there isn’t much that makes the PGA Championship that much different.

 

> @LICC said:

> @dalehead and @Crazyaboutgolf thanks for the good replies! I would say recent courses have been a mixed bag, some great, some good, some non-distinct. Overall the courses haven’t been as good as the other majors but the PGA has improved. Bethpage was a home run. The tournaments themselves have been very well run and fun to watch. The winners have probably a similar mix of top players and journeymen as the Players Championship. Have you played Sawgrass? It’s a great course by an iconic designer. The history and importance of the organization are valid factors in support. But there is also some serious negative racist history of the PGA and by extension the exclusionary history of the PGA Championship if you want to go down that road. Lots of tournaments have great history. The Players has a great 40+ year history too. It has as much history now as the PGA had when the Tour broke off from the PGA.

>

> As I started this discussion due to some complaining that the golf season is meaningless outside of majors, it strikes me that if people weren’t fed the narrative of “majors” they would value some of these other tournaments just as much as the PGA, because there isn’t much that makes the PGA Championship that much different.

 

Well that is certainly your opinion. But I don't see many top players skipping the PGA like I have see players skip TPC.

 

Why do you think that is? My opinion is that the players themselves (particularly the internationals) don't see the importance in TPC, the Tour's relentless fluffing notwithstanding.

 

 

[LICC]

> @Vindog said:

> I can't say anything about this topic that hasn't been said over the years, but man OP's data links are terrible> @LICC said:

> > > @bermuda said:

> > > The question should be what is the Tour Championship the championship of? It has a 30-man field. The winner of it is not necessarily the FedEx champion or the player of the year. If the Tour Championship is the championship of the PGA Tour, what is The Players the championship of?

> > >

> > > Here's how the modern four majors got designated:

> > > After winning the 1960 Masters with a fantastic finish, Palmer spoke about wanting to win the U.S. Open and PGA Championship. He didn't mention it at Augusta, but because the British Open was going to be played at St. Andrews, he had that tournament on his schedule from the start of the year. Two days after Palmer won the Masters, Mercer Bailey of the Associated Press wrote that Palmer "has charted a course which could carry him to the biggest grand slam in golf since Bobby Jones' feat in 1930."

> > > [https://www.golfdigest.com/story/golf_bob_drum_bill_fields](https://www.golfdigest.com/story/golf_bob_drum_bill_fields "https://www.golfdigest.com/story/golf_bob_drum_bill_fields")

> > >

> > > It wasn't people or organizations saying we want this tournament to be a major or we don't want that tournament to be a major. You could say majors are the tournaments people care who wins. I've been a golf fan for more than 40 years. I don't give a flip who wins The Players, the Tour Championship or the FedEx Cup. Those are paychecks. The majors are history.

> > >

> >

> > Actually that Arnold Palmer story is how the modern term "Grand Slam" came about. Not the four majors. They had already been considered majors by then.

> > The term Major really came about through golf writers and the press. But none of this answers why you place more importance on the PGA Championship than the Players, other than the media has told you that the PGA is a "Major".

>

> The PGA is a chamonship of a governing body that has held the tournament through much of American golf's history.

> The Players is gimmick tournament on a gimmick course run by an entertainment conglomerate that uses money as it's only draw, and even then many top players (particularly the International players) have historically skipped the tournament.

>

> How many OWGR top10 players skip skip the PGA, or The Masters, The Open, The US Open. > @LICC said:

> > @dalehead and @Crazyaboutgolf thanks for the good replies! I would say recent courses have been a mixed bag, some great, some good, some non-distinct. Overall the courses haven’t been as good as the other majors but the PGA has improved. Bethpage was a home run. The tournaments themselves have been very well run and fun to watch. The winners have probably a similar mix of top players and journeymen as the Players Championship. Have you played Sawgrass? It’s a great course by an iconic designer. The history and importance of the organization are valid factors in support. But there is also some serious negative racist history of the PGA and by extension the exclusionary history of the PGA Championship if you want to go down that road. Lots of tournaments have great history. The Players has a great 40+ year history too. It has as much history now as the PGA had when the Tour broke off from the PGA.

> >

> > As I started this discussion due to some complaining that the golf season is meaningless outside of majors, it strikes me that if people weren’t fed the narrative of “majors” they would value some of these other tournaments just as much as the PGA, because there isn’t much that makes the PGA Championship that much different.

>

> > @LICC said:

> > @dalehead and @Crazyaboutgolf thanks for the good replies! I would say recent courses have been a mixed bag, some great, some good, some non-distinct. Overall the courses haven’t been as good as the other majors but the PGA has improved. Bethpage was a home run. The tournaments themselves have been very well run and fun to watch. The winners have probably a similar mix of top players and journeymen as the Players Championship. Have you played Sawgrass? It’s a great course by an iconic designer. The history and importance of the organization are valid factors in support. But there is also some serious negative racist history of the PGA and by extension the exclusionary history of the PGA Championship if you want to go down that road. Lots of tournaments have great history. The Players has a great 40+ year history too. It has as much history now as the PGA had when the Tour broke off from the PGA.

> >

> > As I started this discussion due to some complaining that the golf season is meaningless outside of majors, it strikes me that if people weren’t fed the narrative of “majors” they would value some of these other tournaments just as much as the PGA, because there isn’t much that makes the PGA Championship that much different.

>

> Well that is certainly your opinion. But I don't see many top players skipping the PGA like I have see players skip TPC.

>

> Why do you think that is? My opinion is that the players themselves (particularly the internationals) don't see the importance in TPC, the Tour's relentless fluffing notwithstanding.

>

>

Who are these “many top players” that have skipped the Players Championship?

 

[Vindog]

I'm not going to do your research for you but one of them was Martin Kaymer who was world #1 at the time. I don't recall a World #1 ever refusing to play a Major without a family or medical reason.

[LICC]

> @Vindog said:

> I'm not going to do your research for you but one of them was Martin Kaymer who was world #1 at the time. I don't recall a World #1 ever refusing to play a Major without a family or medical reason.

 

It’s your assertion so it’s your research. Kaymer won the Players Championship in 2014. He was world number 1 for eight weeks in 2011. He played the Players in 2011 and 2012. When did he not play? Your memory seems sketchy, and even if true, one player is not “many”. The Players has one of the strongest fields in golf every year.

[RobS14526]

Do you think privately, Jack resents that his invitational didn’t become as highly regarded as Bobby Jones?

[Santiago Golf]

My Ranking of the last decade of the 3 others (/ means tie)

2019 PGA/US Open, Open

2018, PGA, The Open, US Open

2017, The Open, PGA, US Open

2016, The Open, US Open/PGA

2015, US Open, The Open, PGA

2014 PGA, US Open, The Open

2013, The Open/US Open/PGA

2012, PGA, The Open, US Open

2011, US Open, PGA/US Open

2010, The Open/PGA/US Open

 

[widow-maker]

Nobody controls what is and what isn't a Major Championship in golf. They were grown organically. The USGA, PGA, R&A, and PGA Tour don't have the authority to make that determination.

 

I suppose the players themselves could alter public perception by boycotting an individual event, but at this point, why would they do that? The backlash from the press and the public would be overwhelming.

 

The PGA of America currently controls the PGA Championship and the Ryder Cup. I'm sure that this bothers the PGA Tour and the players quite a bit. But, those two events are what sustain the PGA financially. Club professionals are the backbone of golf. They're the ones that actually teach the game to the public. They have a tremendous standing amongst the grass roots golfers in this country and if you are the ones responsible (PGA Tour, players) for their demise, the backlash would be substantial, and a bit suicidal to the image that you've built up. If they could have done this without taking a major hit, the PGA Tour would have done it a long time ago.

 

The current rota of majors isn't broken. It works very well. Five is too many at this point as it would cheapen the records that currently stand and tradition holds a very high place in golf. As much as the PGA Tour would like a bigger piece of the Major action, there just isn't a way for them to get there that doesn't cut off their own nose. They've tried to manufacture a piece of the puzzle, first with the Players Championship, and then with the Tour Championship and Fed Ex Cup, but it's only been moderately successful. The way that the public perceives these events is just the way it goes. When and if you try to force public perception, it usually goes very bad for you. If you misstep... viewers flee, advertisers flee with them.

[TreyWingbat]

Why is the Australian Open considered a Major in tennis? Because it is.

[NJpatbee]

The PGA Championship has the toughest field of any of the Majors and the PGA Tour is now lacking a Major since they split with the PGA of America so we have the manufactured FedEx Cup. Yes, there is some good golf played at the FedEx playoffs but the PGA Championship has the history, tradition, and depth of field to retain its status as a Major.

[Night train]

29,000 PGA members are the grassroots of this game............they deserve a major with their name on it..........they've earned it!

[Darth Putter]

> @Vindog said:

> I'm not going to do your research for you but one of them was Martin Kaymer who was world #1 at the time. I don't recall a World #1 ever refusing to play a Major without a family or medical reason.

 

Kaymer last missed the TPC in 2008, well before he was ranked #1.

The major international players did miss out on the TPC if they were not members of the US PGA Tour. There been special exemptions handed out in recent years to get a top 50 player in the field. Most of the reasons top international players have missed it over the years are the PGA Tour's fault.

 

You are right about top players skipping the event like 2011 when world #1 Lee Westwood and #6 Rory McIlroy skipped the event.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-golf-pga-players-westwood/westwood-and-mcilroy-draw-criticism-for-skipping-players-idUSTRE74A7F620110511

 

Rory admitted it was a mistake when he came back in 2012, but that event didn't include 2011 British Open Champion Darren Clarke, 2011 Masters winner Charl Schwartzel and 2012 Masters winner Bubba Watson.

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/7905071/rory-mcilroy-says-skipping-last-year-players-championship-bad-call

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @"Night train" said:

> 29,000 PGA members are the grassroots of this game............they deserve a major with their name on it..........they've earned it!

 

Agreed they've earned it. Seems only a couple people here want to tear it down... For reasons yet to be disclosed.

[the bishop]

So summing up so far, LICC doesn't think the PGA Championship is befitting its major status. And pretty much everybody else here disagrees with him. I'm ok with both really.

[Roadking2003]

> @cdnglf said:

> > @LICC said:

> > The PGA has 4th rung status among general golf fans. And while generally all PGA Tour events are held at well-conditioned good courses, the other majors usually are held at outstanding, best-in-the-world at the highest level courses (the USGA had a few missed but usually has incredible venues). The PGA? It's gotten better courses in its rotation but does Quail Hollow, Trump Bedminster, Valhalla, Bellerive, Hazeltine, Atlanta Athletic Club, etc. really make you think of the best courses in the world?

> >

>

> What alternative are you proposing?

> That there should only be 3 majors?

> That the Players (which is played on the same course every year) should somehow replace the PGA?

> That some other tournament should somehow replace the PGA?

 

Maybe the Players should replace the British.....

[BlackDiamondPar5]

WRX threads like this are reminiscent of Jones Scott threads :)

[imakaveli]

I love the “strongest field” argument :D Masters is one of the weakest

[cdnglf]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @cdnglf said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > The PGA has 4th rung status among general golf fans. And while generally all PGA Tour events are held at well-conditioned good courses, the other majors usually are held at outstanding, best-in-the-world at the highest level courses (the USGA had a few missed but usually has incredible venues). The PGA? It's gotten better courses in its rotation but does Quail Hollow, Trump Bedminster, Valhalla, Bellerive, Hazeltine, Atlanta Athletic Club, etc. really make you think of the best courses in the world?

> > >

> >

> > What alternative are you proposing?

> > That there should only be 3 majors?

> > That the Players (which is played on the same course every year) should somehow replace the PGA?

> > That some other tournament should somehow replace the PGA?

>

> Maybe the Players should replace the British.....

 

Maybe the Dubai Desert Classic should replace the US Open....

[cdnglf]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @cdnglf said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > The PGA has 4th rung status among general golf fans. And while generally all PGA Tour events are held at well-conditioned good courses, the other majors usually are held at outstanding, best-in-the-world at the highest level courses (the USGA had a few missed but usually has incredible venues). The PGA? It's gotten better courses in its rotation but does Quail Hollow, Trump Bedminster, Valhalla, Bellerive, Hazeltine, Atlanta Athletic Club, etc. really make you think of the best courses in the world?

> > >

> >

> > What alternative are you proposing?

> > That there should only be 3 majors?

> > That the Players (which is played on the same course every year) should somehow replace the PGA?

> > That some other tournament should somehow replace the PGA?

>

> Maybe the Players should replace the British.....

 

Or the Dubai Desert Classic should replace the Masters....

[farmer]

Jonesy was one of the all time great trolls. This thread does not reach that level.

[LICC]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @cdnglf said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > The PGA has 4th rung status among general golf fans. And while generally all PGA Tour events are held at well-conditioned good courses, the other majors usually are held at outstanding, best-in-the-world at the highest level courses (the USGA had a few missed but usually has incredible venues). The PGA? It's gotten better courses in its rotation but does Quail Hollow, Trump Bedminster, Valhalla, Bellerive, Hazeltine, Atlanta Athletic Club, etc. really make you think of the best courses in the world?

> > >

> >

> > What alternative are you proposing?

> > That there should only be 3 majors?

> > That the Players (which is played on the same course every year) should somehow replace the PGA?

> > That some other tournament should somehow replace the PGA?

>

> Maybe the Players should replace the British.....

 

According to Golf Magazine, 5 of the worst 10 majors of the decade were PGA Championships.

 

https://www.golf.com/news/features/2019/07/23/ranking-majors-best-worst-last-decade/

 

[Barfolomew]

Majors should be more major then other tourneys or the status is only in name not in reality...... tougher to play, more money as prestige and to add more pressure, tougher opponents etc...

 

Should be a Major accomplishment that's impressive not just names sake.

[LICC]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @cdnglf said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > The PGA has 4th rung status among general golf fans. And while generally all PGA Tour events are held at well-conditioned good courses, the other majors usually are held at outstanding, best-in-the-world at the highest level courses (the USGA had a few missed but usually has incredible venues). The PGA? It's gotten better courses in its rotation but does Quail Hollow, Trump Bedminster, Valhalla, Bellerive, Hazeltine, Atlanta Athletic Club, etc. really make you think of the best courses in the world?

> > >

> >

> > What alternative are you proposing?

> > That there should only be 3 majors?

> > That the Players (which is played on the same course every year) should somehow replace the PGA?

> > That some other tournament should somehow replace the PGA?

>

> Maybe the Players should replace the British.....

 

According to Golf Magazine, 5 of the worst 10 majors of the decade were PGA Championships:

 

https://www.golf.com/news/features/2019/07/23/ranking-majors-best-worst-last-decade/