Do I open my mouth and complain to the GM about slow play?

[Under2hours]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @Under2hours said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @Under2hours said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @Under2hours said:

> > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > > > > @Under2hours said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Under2hours said:

> > > > > > > > > > > The POP for their 18 was 5:00-5:15.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > You keep saying "their" but what about YOUR pace of place for YOUR 18 holes?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 2-13 we were on a 5:15 pace. That is all that matters!!!!!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > **So you're absolutely not going to answer the question are you**?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In that case, my answer to the original post is no. You should not complain to the GM or anyone else. It is mostly likely whatever you say to the GM will reflect more badly on yourself than you realize. If you're going to remain a member there, being "that guy" (as Dave puts it) is not in your long term interest.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I have a couple of couple of hot button issues at my own club. I might even grumble a bit to some of my friends there once in a while but they're both situations where the things I don't like are things that were going on before I was a member, are probably going to continue long after I'm gone and I'm not going to get 350 other people to change just to accommodate my wishes. So I keep my mouth shut and deal with it. I'd still rather be a member there than another other club within 50 miles.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That's a rhetorical question, right ? LOL

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So now the seniors were playing "shotgun" off of 15. So at least that makes a bit of a difference as that would put them a little bit behind schedule by the time Unda teed off but,,,,,,,,,,, as you can see he clearly doesn't want to answer your question,,,,,,,,, I'm betting everyone can guess why,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Unda's got a penchant for telling half a story (and then sounding a bit "peeved" when somebody asks for clarification). He's got more "moves" than Michael Jackson ever had. You say "the sky is blue", his response will be "But it's Thursday". How many more times will we see this from him ? Personally, I'm encouraged by seeing the word "apologize" from him, in ANY context. Not sure but that might be a "first". LOL

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As Hawk(?) mentioned Unda loved his old club because he was first off all the time and could race around the track and be having his breakfast by 9 A.M. Wonder why he moved on (apologies if he already explained). Now he's got a new club and,,,,,,,,,,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think he should put the seniors and POP on full blast,,,,,,,,, and see what happens,,,,,,,,, maybe his old club will start looking better ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Does it matter if shotgun or not? I explained they teed off at 15 and 7 groups involved. Regardless if shotgun or not (i.e. the last group teeing off 15 @ 9:00 am), where should the group be 1:30 later.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again if I did not say seniors and asked with a POP of 4:15 on a course with minimal hazards that most agree is easily 4:00 or less, how many holes should they have played in 1:30, I hope all would say 7 minimum (and remember the first six holes in this case on a par 71 course included 3 par 3's,2 par 4's & a par 5).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Can I be any clearer?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I think you're right - about the shotgun not mattering.

> > > > >

> > > > > Whether it was a shotgun or not,,,,,,,,,,, whether the actual tee time of the last senior group was 9:42 OR whether they hit at 9:10 (shotgun) and had to wait themselves on multiple groups in front of them, the last group, the one right in front of you, would have STILL cleared your 1st fairway in roughly the same 53 minutes I first calculated, i.e. a 3:30 POP.

> > > > >

> > > > > So I guess I'll stick with my 3:30 POP for the seniors, at least when you first hit. Guess they were on almost a 6 hour POP for the holes while they were in front of you.

> > > > >

> > > > > So how long did it take your group to play again ? LMAO

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > LMAO? Please answer this.... Do you not get it? Let's make it real simple....... If a 4:30 POP how long should it take to finish 6 holes on a par 72 course (i.e. the first 24 shots to par)....... I would suggest 1:30. Now do you agree? Our POP is below 4:30, so I'm actually drawing it out for you. Thus the 9:30 group should have played 6 holes before we teed off at 10:30 (as they teed off @ 9:00). I will then go further as they were playing 3 par threes in the first 6 holes, 2 par fours & a par 5, and should based our POP have been done #3, before we teed off #1. In fact they had not even teed off on 2 (a par three when teed off 1) and we were waiting on #2.

> > > >

> > > > How quick we finished doesn't matter, what matters is that from 2-13 we waited on every hole to hit.

> > >

> > > How quickly you finished doesn't matter to YOU because it'd most likely pull your whole argument right down on your head. When you complain to management I guarantee they'll ask you that same question. You gonna tell 'em it doesn't matter ? LMAO

> > >

> > > Firstly, the "9:30" group, as I mentioned earlier, is closer to 9:45 (7th group off of 15) and THAT is at only 7 minutes per group - shorter than average separation of tee times. At 8 minutes apart, with 6 groups in front of them, they tee off closer to 9:50. YOU are assuming 5 minutes between groups (the "9:30 group"). Ridiculous. Can't happen. Unless maybe everybody played like you of course.

> > >

> > > 5 completed holes, @ 15 minutes per hole (4:30 POP) puts them on the 2nd tee at approximately 11:05. You teed off at 10:35, presumably finished 1 around 10:50. Since they were "due" on the 2nd tee by 11:05 and were there when you got there, approx 10:50 they apparently played their first 5 holes more quickly than your (projected) 4:30 POP.

> > >

> > > Secondly, using your numbers, that "9:30" group, as you want to call them, at your 4:30 POP, finishing 6 holes in 1.5 hours has them walking off the 2nd green, not the 3rd.

> > >

> > > So, net-net, you have them teeing off much earlier than they most likely did - hence the major part of our difference(s).

> > >

> > > Anyway, you got your numbers and I got realistic ones. Neither one of us matters though. Take you complaint(s) to management and see what they say.

> > >

> > > Have a nice evening.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Again you are missing it (not unusual). 7 Groups in a shotgun means, there were 2 groups teeing off 18, 2 on 17, 2 on 16 & 1 on 15...... Not all were foursomes (there was at least a twosome & 2-3 threesomes....... The Group on 15 teed off at 9:30. Do you understand how a shotgun works? There were not 7 groups waiting to tee off 15, they were spread from 15 to 18.....

> >

> > I used 4:30 as that is beyond our POP, and then noted that the 6 holes in question actually are 3 par 3's (we have 5, only one of the 4 par 5's and 2 of the 9 par 4's, so yes they should have been easily done 3 if playing to our 4:15 POP.

> >

> > No wonder you are wrong on almost every debate you enter into...... Sheez!!!!!

>

> I'll type a little more s-l-o-w-l-y for you.

>

> Whether it's a shotgun or NOT there are 6 groups IN FRONT of the LAST group and THAT is the group that you will be following.

>

> Ergo the last/7th group will be clearing your fairway at the same time whether it's a shotgun or not.

>

> OUCH !!! *I* am always wrong ? Now that's just good comedy !!! LMAO

>

> Now how long did it take your group to play your round again ? LOL

 

Again, the seventh group if following the POP of the club, should have been almost finished the third hole when we teed off on 1(1:35 after they did, as we were 5 minutes late) using our posted 4:15 POP.

 

Really don't understand how hard that is to follow. Here are the pars for 15-3...... 3, 5, 3, 4, 4, 3, 4. Tell me how long it should take to play those six holes par 22?

 

My suggestion would be that make the first tee off time after the Seniors on Thursday 2:00, not 1:30, so that there is the opportunity to spread it out and make it enjoyable for all.

 

BTW it was mentioned that the actual group ahead of us only played 8 holes (15-18, 1-4), and we caught up to the threesome ahead again in no time.

[nsxguy]

 

> @Under2hours said:

 

> Again, the seventh group if following the POP of the club, should have been almost finished the third hole when we teed off on 1(1:35 after they did, as we were 5 minutes late) using our posted 4:15 POP.

>

> Really don't understand how hard that is to follow. Here are the pars for 15-3...... 3, 5, 3, 4, 4, 3, 4. Tell me how long it should take to play those six holes par 22?

>

> My suggestion would be that make the first tee off time after the Seniors on Thursday 2:00, not 1:30, so that there is the opportunity to spread it out and make it enjoyable for all.

>

> BTW it was mentioned that the actual group ahead of us only played 8 holes (15-18, 1-4), and we caught up to the threesome ahead again in no time.

 

Again, you are taking their starting time as 9:00. Since it's a shotgun they have SIX groups ahead of them on only THREE holes. They can't play faster than the 6 groups in front of them. So the 9:00 start is a red herring.

 

To make this simpler, what if there were 5 groups starting on each tee ? and yes, I realize they would never do that but it would illustrate the point. Would the 5th group on that tee be expected to be "in position" exactly the same as the 1st group on that tee ? Of course not.

 

So the 7th group's EFFECTIVE starting time is the same as if they had NOT been starting shotgun, i.e. roughly 9:42. From 9:42, 4.5 holes, at a 4 hour POP, is an hour. An hour from 9:42 is 10:42 so on that 4 hour POP they should be just clearing your fairway for you to hit, NOT be done with the 3rd hole.

 

So make your complaint and/or give your suggestion to management. Who knows ? Maybe you've got the solution,,,,,, to what appears to most here as a non-problem.

 

I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.

 

You played in what I assume is the 4:15 POP or less but can't seem to admit it and yet you're still complaining about slow play. Get over yourself already.

 

Now YOU get the last word here. I'm done with this silliness.

[Under2hours]

> @nsxguy said:

>

> > @Under2hours said:

>

> > Again, the seventh group if following the POP of the club, should have been almost finished the third hole when we teed off on 1(1:35 after they did, as we were 5 minutes late) using our posted 4:15 POP.

> >

> > Really don't understand how hard that is to follow. Here are the pars for 15-3...... 3, 5, 3, 4, 4, 3, 4. Tell me how long it should take to play those six holes par 22?

> >

> > My suggestion would be that make the first tee off time after the Seniors on Thursday 2:00, not 1:30, so that there is the opportunity to spread it out and make it enjoyable for all.

> >

> > BTW it was mentioned that the actual group ahead of us only played 8 holes (15-18, 1-4), and we caught up to the threesome ahead again in no time.

>

> Again, you are taking their starting time as 9:00. Since it's a shotgun they have SIX groups ahead of them on only THREE holes. They can't play faster than the 6 groups in front of them. So the 9:00 start is a red herring.

>

> To make this simpler, what if there were 5 groups starting on each tee ? and yes, I realize they would never do that but it would illustrate the point. Would the 5th group on that tee be expected to be "in position" exactly the same as the 1st group on that tee ? Of course not.

>

> So the 7th group's EFFECTIVE starting time is the same as if they had NOT been starting shotgun, i.e. roughly 9:42. From 9:42, 4.5 holes, at a 4 hour POP, is an hour. An hour from 9:42 is 10:42 so on that 4 hour POP they should be just clearing your fairway for you to hit, NOT be done with the 3rd hole.

>

> So make your complaint and/or give your suggestion to management. Who knows ? Maybe you've got the solution,,,,,, to what appears to most here as a non-problem.

>

> I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.

>

> You played in what I assume is the 4:15 POP or less but can't seem to admit it and yet you're still complaining about slow play. Get over yourself already.

>

> Now YOU get the last word here. I'm done with this silliness.

 

Again you are wrong....... They teed off on a par 3 & there are 7 groups on 4 holes & they teed off 1:30 ahead of us on well spaced course (not wall to wall foursomes) with a strict POP.... Math is not your strong point is it?

 

What if the Post was simply "Should I complain about 7 slow groups who play Thursday morning & back up the course?" & followed up with...... The POP at our course is 4:15 and these groups play in closer to 5:00 and this is weekly. Would that have changed the tone?

 

Instead I have people like you questioning my math (I do math all day in my job btw) or whether we were actually held up and whether we waited on every shot or not. I've played 100's of rounds & certainly know the difference between a good pace and a slow one.

[denkea]

If I played the first 9 holes in 3 hours and the last 9 in 1 hour I'd definitely go to the GM and complain. That's what he's there for. Input from the members. But, remember. It's not necessarily what you say but how you say it.

[Under2hours]

> @denkea said:

> If I played the first 9 holes in 3 hours and the last 9 in 1 hour I'd definitely go to the GM and complain. That's what he's there for. Input from the members. But, remember. It's not necessarily what you say but how you say it.

 

Someone get's it????? I have no idea why people are asking how long the round was. What mattered was the holes we followed these groups were very slow and waited on every hole and shot (for the most part).

 

I made the mistake of giving context and explaining the situation.

[CaseyC]

When are you talking to the GM?

[chippa13]

Never. This thread was just his bitch session.

[DrSchteeve]

Typical slow play thread. 10 or 12 holes at an abysmal, wait on every shot, pace (which is what ANY 5 hour paced round includes), is painful, unfortunate, and should be addressed (GM or otherwise).

 

The final pace of the round is not relevant. It's 3 hours of torture, 1:15 of good pace. Oh, you had a "time par" round doesn't take into account the 10 holes of waiting every single shot.

 

I see this frequently: terrible pace due to some group ahead, often several holes ahead, course won't take action, that group finally finishes and all of the sudden the pace is what it should be for the last several holes, making the overall round within or near the "time par". That's a painful slow round - just what the OP experienced - and unacceptable anywhere, anytime.

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

> @DrSchteeve said:

> Typical slow play thread. 10 or 12 holes at an abysmal, wait on every shot, pace (which is what ANY 5 hour paced round includes), is painful, unfortunate, and should be addressed (GM or otherwise).

>

> The final pace of the round is not relevant. It's 3 hours of torture, 1:15 of good pace. Oh, you had a "time par" round doesn't take into account the 10 holes of waiting every single shot.

>

> I see this frequently: terrible pace due to some group ahead, often several holes ahead, course won't take action, that group finally finishes and all of the sudden the pace is what it should be for the last several holes, making the overall round within or near the "time par". That's a painful slow round - just what the OP experienced - and unacceptable anywhere, anytime.

>

>

The 1:15 back nine was complete BS, therefore there was no 3 hours of torture. I think you missed that.

[DrSchteeve]

You can quibble with his math, but this kind of thing happens a lot.

Maybe you didn't actually read my quote, the one containing this:

I see this frequently: terrible pace due to some group ahead, often several holes ahead, course won't take action, that group finally finishes and all of the sudden the pace is what it should be for the last several holes, making the overall round within or near the "time par". That's a painful slow round - just what the OP experienced - and unacceptable anywhere, anytime.

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> > @DrSchteeve said:

> > Typical slow play thread. 10 or 12 holes at an abysmal, wait on every shot, pace (which is what ANY 5 hour paced round includes), is painful, unfortunate, and should be addressed (GM or otherwise).

> >

> > The final pace of the round is not relevant. It's 3 hours of torture, 1:15 of good pace. Oh, you had a "time par" round doesn't take into account the 10 holes of waiting every single shot.

> >

> > I see this frequently: terrible pace due to some group ahead, often several holes ahead, course won't take action, that group finally finishes and all of the sudden the pace is what it should be for the last several holes, making the overall round within or near the "time par". That's a painful slow round - just what the OP experienced - and unacceptable anywhere, anytime.

> >

> >

> The 1:15 back nine was complete BS, therefore there was no 3 hours of torture. I think you missed that.

 

 

[Under2hours]

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> > @DrSchteeve said:

> > Typical slow play thread. 10 or 12 holes at an abysmal, wait on every shot, pace (which is what ANY 5 hour paced round includes), is painful, unfortunate, and should be addressed (GM or otherwise).

> >

> > The final pace of the round is not relevant. It's 3 hours of torture, 1:15 of good pace. Oh, you had a "time par" round doesn't take into account the 10 holes of waiting every single shot.

> >

> > I see this frequently: terrible pace due to some group ahead, often several holes ahead, course won't take action, that group finally finishes and all of the sudden the pace is what it should be for the last several holes, making the overall round within or near the "time par". That's a painful slow round - just what the OP experienced - and unacceptable anywhere, anytime.

> >

> >

> The 1:15 back nine was complete BS, therefore there was no 3 hours of torture. I think you missed that.

 

Oh you were there too? Amazed at how many fellow members of my club are on this site.

 

As for my math it is 100% correct. I even tried to make it as easy as possible so that some could understand..... I.e. 4:30 pace of play means 6 holes should be completed in 1:30 (4:30/3). I tried not make a big deal that the first six holes actually includes 3 par 3's and is par 22 (on a par 71 course) so only 22/71=30.9% of the course, which means they should have completed more then 6 holes, before we even stepped on #1....... It's like the old math question.... If one car is travelling at an average speed of 30mph and has started one hour ahead of you, how fast must you drive to catch them in two hours..... Answer 45mph (2 x 45 = 90, 3 x 30 = 90).

 

 

As stated above how long it took us to complete the round means nothing. All that is germane is the holes played behind this group. In this case it was waiting on holes 2-14 (and that included at least one group leaving after 8 holes).

 

As for the title of the thread it was asking whether I should say anything or shut up and know to stay well clear of them going forward. It morphed out of control, and see the points on both sides and it is a question about whether I want to kick the hornet's nest or not.

 

Currently there are 8-10 groups, but if this eventually becomes 20, then the course will be backed up severely and then this may be more of an issue.

 

Example is Men's league which is wildly popular and they've made changes where now it is not an afternoon affair, but can post all day, which allows people to tee off early or late and has spread out the tee sheet. And yes usually a slower day too, which is why I quit as running up to play nine, fighting late day traffic and a 2:20 nine was not fun.

[chippa13]

On most courses the pars 3s are where backups can start. Yes, the holes take less total time to play generally but it takes more time for groups to be clear for the next group to hit.

[North Butte]

The only question is what you hope to accomplish. If you want to simply register "a complaint about slow play" then a note, E-mail or 30-second conversation with the GM will let him know that you didn't like playing behind that group. That won't actually accomplish anything but at least you will have let him know you didn't like it.

 

If you want to unburden yourself of accumulated frustration, it's probably just as well you got that out of your system here. Not much to be gained from going off to the GM on a long, convoluted rant about how fast other people were playing, etc., etc. That accomplishes nothing more than simply saying you were unhappy with the pace that day. And you will likely have him write you off as a loudmouth which isn't in your best interest going forward.

 

My advice? Communicate your unhappiness to the GM. But limit it to exactly what YOU experienced. Leave off the part about how they're doing things all wrong and how you think they ought to run the course.

[DrSchteeve]

What a thoughtful, reasoned response. That has no place here!!!

> @"North Butte" said:

> The only question is what you hope to accomplish. If you want to simply register "a complaint about slow play" then a note, E-mail or 30-second conversation with the GM will let him know that you didn't like playing behind that group. That won't actually accomplish anything but at least you will have let him know you didn't like it.

>

> If you want to unburden yourself of accumulated frustration, it's probably just as well you got that out of your system here. Not much to be gained from going off to the GM on a long, convoluted rant about how fast other people were playing, etc., etc. That accomplishes nothing more than simply saying you were unhappy with the pace that day. And you will likely have him write you off as a loudmouth which isn't in your best interest going forward.

>

> My advice? Communicate your unhappiness to the GM. But limit it to exactly what YOU experienced. Leave off the part about how they're doing things all wrong and how you think they ought to run the course.

 

 

[North Butte]

> @DrSchteeve said:

> What a thoughtful, reasoned response. That has no place here!!!

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > The only question is what you hope to accomplish. If you want to simply register "a complaint about slow play" then a note, E-mail or 30-second conversation with the GM will let him know that you didn't like playing behind that group. That won't actually accomplish anything but at least you will have let him know you didn't like it.

> >

> > If you want to unburden yourself of accumulated frustration, it's probably just as well you got that out of your system here. Not much to be gained from going off to the GM on a long, convoluted rant about how fast other people were playing, etc., etc. That accomplishes nothing more than simply saying you were unhappy with the pace that day. And you will likely have him write you off as a loudmouth which isn't in your best interest going forward.

> >

> > My advice? Communicate your unhappiness to the GM. But limit it to exactly what YOU experienced. Leave off the part about how they're doing things all wrong and how you think they ought to run the course.

 

I will endeavor to do better in future. My snark button has a hair trigger, it must be said...

[Skaffa77]

> @"North Butte" said:

> The only question is what you hope to accomplish. If you want to simply register "a complaint about slow play" then a note, E-mail or 30-second conversation with the GM will let him know that you didn't like playing behind that group. That won't actually accomplish anything but at least you will have let him know you didn't like it.

>

> If you want to unburden yourself of accumulated frustration, it's probably just as well you got that out of your system here. Not much to be gained from going off to the GM on a long, convoluted rant about how fast other people were playing, etc., etc. That accomplishes nothing more than simply saying you were unhappy with the pace that day. And you will likely have him write you off as a loudmouth which isn't in your best interest going forward.

>

> My advice? Communicate your unhappiness to the GM. But limit it to exactly what YOU experienced. Leave off the part about how they're doing things all wrong and how you think they ought to run the course.

 

This was the point of my original response on page 1...all the weird math and and timing perspectives aside...

 

What do you want to accomplish as resolution for this issue that is fair for the Seniors, yourself and the club? It sounds like the OP has concluded that the club might consider creating a buffer between the Seniors outing and regular patrons to ensure the seniors can play at their pace (however fast or slow that is) and not create a potential POP issue for others. I think that is a fair recommendation to the GM if provided in a respectful manner.

[North Butte]

> @Skaffa77 said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > The only question is what you hope to accomplish. If you want to simply register "a complaint about slow play" then a note, E-mail or 30-second conversation with the GM will let him know that you didn't like playing behind that group. That won't actually accomplish anything but at least you will have let him know you didn't like it.

> >

> > If you want to unburden yourself of accumulated frustration, it's probably just as well you got that out of your system here. Not much to be gained from going off to the GM on a long, convoluted rant about how fast other people were playing, etc., etc. That accomplishes nothing more than simply saying you were unhappy with the pace that day. And you will likely have him write you off as a loudmouth which isn't in your best interest going forward.

> >

> > My advice? Communicate your unhappiness to the GM. But limit it to exactly what YOU experienced. Leave off the part about how they're doing things all wrong and how you think they ought to run the course.

>

> This was the point of my original response on page 1...all the weird math and and timing perspectives aside...

>

> What do you want to accomplish as resolution for this issue that is fair for the Seniors, yourself and the club? It sounds like the OP has concluded that the club might consider creating a buffer between the Seniors outing and regular patrons to ensure the seniors can play at their pace (however fast or slow that is) and not create a potential POP issue for others. I think that is a fair recommendation to the GM if provided in a respectful manner.

 

My own take on it is they did provide (if I read all the back-and-forth correctly) a buffer of a half hour or so behind the slow group. Or at least I think that's what he said. And in the end they did finish within the posted pace.

 

Sounds to me like ideally the buffer would have been 20 minutes longer or something but other than that the whole thing seems to have worked roughly as designed. Not ideal, obviously. And for that one group on that one day it was very unpleasant. But I suspect that's just how the cookie crumbles sometimes.

 

But yeah, if he thinks a longer buffer might avoid future problems he might want to make that concrete suggestion.

[davep043]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @Skaffa77 said:

 

> > What do you want to accomplish as resolution for this issue that is fair for the Seniors, yourself and the club? It sounds like the OP has concluded that the club might consider creating a buffer between the Seniors outing and regular patrons to ensure the seniors can play at their pace (however fast or slow that is) and not create a potential POP issue for others. I think that is a fair recommendation to the GM if provided in a respectful manner.

>

> My own take on it is they did provide (if I read all the back-and-forth correctly) a buffer of a half hour or so behind the slow group. Or at least I think that's what he said. And in the end they did finish within the posted pace.

>

> Sounds to me like ideally the buffer would have been 20 minutes longer or something but other than that the whole thing seems to have worked roughly as designed. Not ideal, obviously. And for that one group on that one day it was very unpleasant. But I suspect that's just how the cookie crumbles sometimes.

>

> But yeah, if he thinks a longer buffer might avoid future problems he might want to make that concrete suggestion.

@Under2hours has described himself as a very fast player in a number of threads, and if the rest of his group preferred an similarly fast pace, they may have exacerbated the situation. Its possible that a group playing at a more standard pace, starting at the same time, wouldn't have caught the Senior group until much later in the round, and waited much less. I don't know, I'm just guessing based on previous posts by the OP. But if that is the case, the club may have planned appropriately, and this was just an unfortunate blend of a very fast group catching up to a pretty slow group much quicker than management could have anticipated.

 

[North Butte]

> @davep043 said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @Skaffa77 said:

>

> > > What do you want to accomplish as resolution for this issue that is fair for the Seniors, yourself and the club? It sounds like the OP has concluded that the club might consider creating a buffer between the Seniors outing and regular patrons to ensure the seniors can play at their pace (however fast or slow that is) and not create a potential POP issue for others. I think that is a fair recommendation to the GM if provided in a respectful manner.

> >

> > My own take on it is they did provide (if I read all the back-and-forth correctly) a buffer of a half hour or so behind the slow group. Or at least I think that's what he said. And in the end they did finish within the posted pace.

> >

> > Sounds to me like ideally the buffer would have been 20 minutes longer or something but other than that the whole thing seems to have worked roughly as designed. Not ideal, obviously. And for that one group on that one day it was very unpleasant. But I suspect that's just how the cookie crumbles sometimes.

> >

> > But yeah, if he thinks a longer buffer might avoid future problems he might want to make that concrete suggestion.

> @Under2hours has described himself as a very fast player in a number of threads, and if the rest of his group preferred an similarly fast pace, they may have exacerbated the situation. Its possible that a group playing at a more standard pace, starting at the same time, wouldn't have caught the Senior group until much later in the round, and waited much less. I don't know, I'm just guessing based on previous posts by the OP. But if that is the case, the club may have planned appropriately, and this was just an unfortunate blend of a very fast group catching up to a pretty slow group much quicker than management could have anticipated.

>

 

That's exactly what I thought when I read the first few posts in the thread. I see it happen at my own club. We don't have a "starter" or "rangers", we rely on the members to self-police things. But it drives the pro shop guys crazy every time this thing happens. One of the fast players or groups will see an empty 1st tee and want to go off right away. The pro explains that a large group went off 20 minutes earlier and is going to be out there for 4-1/2 hours. So maybe you'd better wait 30-45 minutes before teeing off if you want to play at your normal 3-hour pace.

 

Invariably, they'll tee off anyway. Then pull out the phone five holes later and yell at the poor guy answering the phone in the pro shop.

[manku]

If I invited people to play at my club and they complained about the POP, I don't think I'd invite them again in the future...I'm pretty easygoing and lax on golf etiquette, but that is pretty rude, IMHO...like calling your pet ugly!

[Under2hours]

> @"North Butte" said:

> The only question is what you hope to accomplish. If you want to simply register "a complaint about slow play" then a note, E-mail or 30-second conversation with the GM will let him know that you didn't like playing behind that group. That won't actually accomplish anything but at least you will have let him know you didn't like it.

>

> If you want to unburden yourself of accumulated frustration, it's probably just as well you got that out of your system here. Not much to be gained from going off to the GM on a long, convoluted rant about how fast other people were playing, etc., etc. That accomplishes nothing more than simply saying you were unhappy with the pace that day. And you will likely have him write you off as a loudmouth which isn't in your best interest going forward.

>

> My advice? Communicate your unhappiness to the GM. But limit it to exactly what YOU experienced. Leave off the part about how they're doing things all wrong and how you think they ought to run the course.

 

Exactly what I did today. 2 minute conversation suggesting that I don't want to be "that guy", but it was slow and maybe give them a 2:00 hour window (vs. 1:30). No big deal, but found the questioning of my experience from people not members of my course or weren't there ridiculous.

 

I asked simply whether I should say anything or not.

[Hawkeye77]

 

> @Under2hours said:

> > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > @DrSchteeve said:

> > > Typical slow play thread. 10 or 12 holes at an abysmal, wait on every shot, pace (which is what ANY 5 hour paced round includes), is painful, unfortunate, and should be addressed (GM or otherwise).

> > >

> > > The final pace of the round is not relevant. It's 3 hours of torture, 1:15 of good pace. Oh, you had a "time par" round doesn't take into account the 10 holes of waiting every single shot.

> > >

> > > I see this frequently: terrible pace due to some group ahead, often several holes ahead, course won't take action, that group finally finishes and all of the sudden the pace is what it should be for the last several holes, making the overall round within or near the "time par". That's a painful slow round - just what the OP experienced - and unacceptable anywhere, anytime.

> > >

> > >

> > The 1:15 back nine was complete BS, therefore there was no 3 hours of torture. I think you missed that.

>

> Oh you were there too? Amazed at how many fellow members of my club are on this site.

>

> As for my math it is 100% correct. I even tried to make it as easy as possible so that some could understand..... I.e. 4:30 pace of play means 6 holes should be completed in 1:30 (4:30/3). I tried not make a big deal that the first six holes actually includes 3 par 3's and is par 22 (on a par 71 course) so only 22/71=30.9% of the course, which means they should have completed more then 6 holes, before we even stepped on #1....... It's like the old math question.... If one car is travelling at an average speed of 30mph and has started one hour ahead of you, how fast must you drive to catch them in two hours..... Answer 45mph (2 x 45 = 90, 3 x 30 = 90).

>

>

Last time champ - you said the first 5 holes of the back nine were played at a 5 hour round pace. That's 83 minutes or 1 hour 23 minus, Mr. Math. We've covered this, you dodge it.

 

Yet you go on and on about having the super fast and OVERALL 1:15 back nine (because that's the only way you can get away with the claim of the 3 hour front nine).

 

Seriously, give it up. Just using your numbers, which are only your numbers until you figure out they don't add up, lol.

 

This thread wasn't about simply asking whether you should talk to the GM, it's been a tortured rant justifying your being upset about not knowing better than teeing off after a large group, having your own impatience interfere with your guests' experience and being pushed for time for some alleged afternoon meetings.

 

My advice, just take the whole damn day off and be a host who has an attitude that will allow you and your guests to have a good time no matter what the course throws at you. That is really all that matters and you fell short there. Take them back (or take back some guests who understand that good guests don't complain) and do better.

[North Butte]

I'm not telling anyone else how to structure their time but I personally just hate playing golf when I am under some sort of deadline time pressure. As much as I like to play every chance I get, if I had an unmissable meeting looming in the afternoon I'd probably skip the golf. Or try to reschedule the meeting for earlier in the day ;-)

[Under2hours]

> @Hawkeye77 said:

>

> > @Under2hours said:

> > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > > @DrSchteeve said:

> > > > Typical slow play thread. 10 or 12 holes at an abysmal, wait on every shot, pace (which is what ANY 5 hour paced round includes), is painful, unfortunate, and should be addressed (GM or otherwise).

> > > >

> > > > The final pace of the round is not relevant. It's 3 hours of torture, 1:15 of good pace. Oh, you had a "time par" round doesn't take into account the 10 holes of waiting every single shot.

> > > >

> > > > I see this frequently: terrible pace due to some group ahead, often several holes ahead, course won't take action, that group finally finishes and all of the sudden the pace is what it should be for the last several holes, making the overall round within or near the "time par". That's a painful slow round - just what the OP experienced - and unacceptable anywhere, anytime.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > The 1:15 back nine was complete BS, therefore there was no 3 hours of torture. I think you missed that.

> >

> > Oh you were there too? Amazed at how many fellow members of my club are on this site.

> >

> > As for my math it is 100% correct. I even tried to make it as easy as possible so that some could understand..... I.e. 4:30 pace of play means 6 holes should be completed in 1:30 (4:30/3). I tried not make a big deal that the first six holes actually includes 3 par 3's and is par 22 (on a par 71 course) so only 22/71=30.9% of the course, which means they should have completed more then 6 holes, before we even stepped on #1....... It's like the old math question.... If one car is travelling at an average speed of 30mph and has started one hour ahead of you, how fast must you drive to catch them in two hours..... Answer 45mph (2 x 45 = 90, 3 x 30 = 90).

> >

> >

> Last time champ - you said the first 5 holes of the back nine were played at a 5 hour round pace. That's 83 minutes or 1 hour 23 minus, Mr. Math. We've covered this, you dodge it.

>

> Yet you go on and on about having the super fast and OVERALL 1:15 back nine (because that's the only way you can get away with the claim of the 3 hour front nine).

>

> Seriously, give it up. Just using your numbers, which are only your numbers until you figure out they don't add up, lol.

>

> This thread wasn't about simply asking whether you should talk to the GM, it's been a tortured rant justifying your being upset about not knowing better than teeing off after a large group, having your own impatience interfere with your guests' experience and being pushed for time for some alleged afternoon meetings.

>

> My advice, just take the whole **** day off and be a host who has an attitude that will allow you and your guests to have a good time no matter what the course throws at you. That is really all that matters and you fell short there. Take them back (or take back some guests who understand that good guests don't complain) and do better.

 

Oh my god, you have no idea about math do you? Let's try again...... They started on 15...... 15, 16, 17, 18...... That's 4 holes, not 5 (welcome to use your fingers to count)..... You can not add!!!!!!!! I stated that based on a 4:30 pace, **_Before we teed up even on #1_**, they should have played a minimum of 6 holes, thus having completed #2. They however were still not through #2, when we reached it and we teed off on #1, which is a long par 4 (460 yards) an 1:35 after they started on #15.... Meaning we probably reached #2 1:45 after they started on 15, making their POP closer to 5:15 (3 x 1:45).

 

The 1:15 back 9 had **_NOTHING_** to do with our round and was a comment thrown out early about how long our round took, when I stated the POP was 4:15 and that doesn't take away from an unenjoyable round played in 4:15(time par) if one takes 3:00 to play a very slow front nine, however races around the back nine in 1:15...... You continue to comment on a hypothetical that did not happen......

[2bGood]

Under2hour - glad to hear you made your complaint.

 

I have to log into golfgmwrx now as I can't wait to hear how your GM tells this story. :D

[chippa13]

"Do I kick this guy out or yes him to death?"

[caniac6]

Really sounds like you are the most important guy at your course, and everyone else just needs to get out of your way.

[Under2hours]

> @caniac6 said:

> Really sounds like you are the most important guy at your course, and everyone else just needs to get out of your way.

 

Thanks for confirming I have no standing at the club and the Club's serious adherence to maintaining POP (they attach monitors to bags to track golfers times & position) doesn't apply when I'm playing.

 

Got it!!!!

[caniac6]

> @Under2hours said:

> > @caniac6 said:

> > Really sounds like you are the most important guy at your course, and everyone else just needs to get out of your way.

>

> Thanks for confirming I have no standing at the club and the Club's serious adherence to maintaining POP (they attach monitors to bags to track golfers times & position) doesn't apply when I'm playing.

>

> Got it!!!!

 

You got it alright! You deserve more consideration than seven groups of seniors. The GM and golf pro should have made 28 people stand aside for your foursome.

[Petethreeput]

Think about this, and it’s all moot since you did say something, but...

You joined bc you like the POP.

These folks you are complaining about set that pace years ago and now it’s considered the norm.

The course is in good shape bc these guys have been paying dues/ assessments for years.

This course is still in existence bc these guys were the leaders and kept it financially healthy.

Now these men are older and physically unable to keep pace. They know it, but they also know golf is a lifetime game and they have friends with whom to play.

 

Bottom line: your position on this is about as selfish as I have seen. I truly hope however many years from now and you’re in their position someone blames you and runs to GM.