New World Handicap System

[CaseyC]

Not sure how having a phone on a golf course is fundamentally any different from having anywhere else.

[Deceptively Short]

Why is everyone so hung up on the issues of using a smartphone on the course. If you don’t want to use one, just simply do what the rest of the world does and write your scores on a scorecard, hole by hole, there are little boxes provided then input the same scores, it takes about 30 seconds, into your phone at the end of the round in the peace and comfort of the bar. Job done. No need to do any totals or work out esc/ndb as the app does it for you.

Can’t see any life changing issue here.

[sui generis]

It would not surprise me to find in the not too distant future that a GHIN app could listen (and speak).

"Hey, GHIN. Hole number three, missed fairway left, GIR, two putts, score is four."

"Okay, Bob. Nice par. Do you still miss that sweaty piece of cardboard and the stubby pencil?" says GHIN.

 

[ThinkingPlus]

PCC will not be calculated based on conditions, but on scores posted. If the scores posted on a given day are better than expected then an adjustment might be made to decrease the CR on that day (easier course conditions). If the scores posted were worse than expected then the CR would be raised (harder course conditions). Since the corrections are supposed to be whole numbers only, I don't expect adjustments to occur very often.

[Shilgy]

Yes, but...you do not need to enter scores on the course. Take your scorecard when the round is finished and enter the hole by hole scores in 30 seconds.

 

The cries about Golf Genius scorekeeping are comical to me. Yes, you will want to post scores-just one player in the group-and the benefit is a live leaderboard as the round is played. And no calculations need to be done after the round. The leaderboard will show you everything about the event you could need to know. Team game scoring, gross and net skins, you name it. AND...for those that complain about sandbaggers(cough cough Blade) the app can post everyone’s scores with ESC properly calculated.

 

The pro shop does not calculate PCC adjustments. It will be determined by the scores posted for play that day and will be a rare occurrence.

 

Like Sui has posted-embrace the changes- not fight it. You will enjoy the game more that way.

[bladehunter]

Do you want to be that one guy responsible for 4 scores now ? I refuse. I don’t go to the course to be an accountant and audit the entire round for 4 folks.

 

my opinion on the idea that live scoring will kick out sandbaggers is similar to my opinion on laws written to hopefully catch offenders. Laws that inconvenience the rest of the law abiding population. I don’t like them. Why not just catch and tase the offenders ? Lol. Why do we all have to do more work ? This is literally adding work with no perceived benefit except “ might catch some sandbaggers”?

[Shilgy]

So you will not keep score on paper? Do you have an issue in tournaments? There you will keep a fellow competitor score and, presumably, your own. Is it really that difficult? I would think with all of your posts about sandbaggers you would want to be keeping your groups score. Not leave it up to someone less responsible than yourself.

[DaveLeeNC]

The most significant (I am not saying it is some huge deal) behavior change here is not taking home the card and entering 17 more #'s than you used to enter. It is having a scorecard that didn't used to exist (or taking a picture of one or whatever).

dave

[bladehunter]

Of course I’ll keep my opponents score when cards are traded . But I’m not the scorer for a group of 4.

in a group like that I’ll keep my own score and whoever wants to can keep the groups score. And I’ll check my score against the group card when the round is over to make sure that marker has it correct.

 

Sounds rude. But I simply cannot concentrate on that many numbers and concentrate on playing the game. I generally have no idea what my own score is until the turn , maybe not even then. I just slap the holes score on the card as I walk to the next hole and card back in pocket. That’s it. You want me to go from 3 seconds of action to 30 at minimum, that’s plenty long enough to break concentration from the next shot to “ why isn’t this damn app working “.

[Shilgy]

Color me surprised that you give that control to another player.

 

ps you don’t have a few seconds per hole of “down time” where you are not grinding in concentration? Hoganesque I guess.

[bladehunter]

@Shilgy

to add to the above post .... I try to do other things for the group , like grab the pin and pull it , always be extra eyes for shots , and I’m famous for finding balls in the junk as I actually look . But when asked to keep score I will ask this “ do you want to hear , hey jim what did you have there 18 times “? I ask this because I will not know what anybody had until they tell me. I don’t have the ability to follow them shot by shot. Not consciously

But heres the funny part. I can go back in my mind and recall snapshots of every shot they hit.... but no time for a complete replay every hole for me to know quick enough to keep the card . So I try to be upfront and say “ I suck at keeping score. “.

And no. I’m not trying to be hoganesque .... if it’s buddies we may talk about allot of things. If it’s a tournament round with strangers. Probably not saying much unless spoken to. But in either instances I’m always thinking about the upcoming shot. I just feel unprepared if I’m not. And there’s never time in between holes for any real down time. I just don’t play 5 hour rounds unless it’s some event that gets backed up. All the qualifiers and the like I played this year moved quick. They are doing a great job with pace of play. Which was a big reason who the golf genius live scoring didn’t last 3 holes at the state am qualifier. Once the official warned our group that we where half a hole behind we ditched it as everyone knew that was the holdup. 1 hole later we where back on the group in front

[Shilgy]

Blade, when you get used to golf genius it takes less than ten seconds to enter scores for a foursome.

open phone

type scores for group, no “enter” button for each so 3445 for instance.

press “ save score”

continue walking.....

 

[rogolf]

I'm with blade on this - I know my score without writing it down and will act as a marker for one other player, but other player's scores are their responsibility. And I don't use my phone or any other electronic device to keep score nor do I want to. I'll just insist on a scorecard since that will always be an option, imo.

[Newby]

Of course I’ll keep my opponents score when cards are traded . in a group like that I’ll keep my own score

As now, that is all you will be required to do. And you won't need to carry any technology. The WHS does not (and cannot) require you to do any more that the Rules of Golf require. ie just return your signed card .

Why not just catch the offenders ?

But how do you propose that is done?

[antip]

Me too. Defend our rights! Pencil and paper for ever! The phone can be stuck where the sun don't shine, we've already handed enough control and resources to the likes of Apple and Google, the golf course is my last refuge.

[sui generis]

You people are giving geezers a bad name! The geezers at my club like Golf Genius live scoring . . . so there.

[Imp]

Bladehunter, as with any habit, they get learned.

For some reason, it seems like the way you are weary of asking others for their scores, you like regarding yours as a closely held secret and assume others would feel the same? (Not an attack, just an observation). I'm more curious than anything as I'm not in the same mindset like you, can you indulge me on this one?

"While the group walks off the green too the next tee, how does asking 3 others what they got on the last hole take you our of your game?" Their scores are inconsequential to yours. Knowing them and not knowing them should be no difference in your mental prep for the next hole.

To me, marking 4 scores on a card, as with any habit, ends up being no different than putting a club back in its proper place in my bag after the hole, putting a glove on, finding a tee in my bag, taking a swig of water, or other routine one does, before my next tee shot for the hole. In other words, it's not a mentally draining task removes me from my game. It's simple conversation strictly for the purpose of marking the card, another tool/apparatus of the game.

--kC

 

[DaveLeeNC]

I used to keep stats and often kept the four person team card. Dealing with two cards was manageable, although not preferable. But I really didn't like having the track down scores. Sometimes the carts are on opposite sides of the green, I forgot my chipping club and have to run back to get it so don't have time to inquire about scores, people sometimes leave the green at different times, etc. But somebody had to do it. Typically the guys who really objected were bad at scoring anyway, so there would be a natural solution.

FWIW, when I think negatively about hole by hole posting (regardless of how you do it) it is mostly in the context of the mostly 75 to 85 year old guys that I play with and dealing with their objections. But since I am no longer on the handicap committee, I guess that I can pass the buck now -:)

dave

ps. I think that I am correct here in that this will NOT be required in the US.

[Sawgrass]

Our club's plan is to have the weekly event live scoring up on a TV in the bar. Watching your lead hold or dwindle should be great fun.

And to those not wishing to enter other people's scores at the end of the round, there's this: Don't, just enter your own.

There is way too much being made of this. If you don't enter your hole scores live, entering them off to the side of the 18th green will take less time than walking to a scorecard collection point and handing the paper over.

[Augster]

The largest change will be dependent on what tees your group plays. Meaning, take the CR of the tees and subtract it from par. (CR-par). Now take that number and subtract it from your course handicap.

 

Our group plays the whites which are really easy. The CR is 69 and our par is 71. So everyone’s course handicap is going down 2 strokes on 1/1/20. I was a 7, next year I’ll start as a 5.

CR-par is going to make much more difference in caps than the 8/20 or hard cap or soft cap. More so for guys that play golds. Our gold tees are -7 strokes for CR-par. I’m a 5 from the golds. I’ll be a +2 playing there next year.

[BKN1964]

I've played some competitions that required us to enter live scoring. We had one person enter the scores, another would keep a card as a backup/comparison. It was as easy as this:

 

At the next tee box, before anyone tee'd-off, the person entering the scores would ask/confirm each person their score and enter it. The card-keeper would write them down on a scorecard as a backup. It took the same amount of time as it does when one person keeps the scorecard for the group in our regular weekly skins games, where that card is used to call out the scores when everyone's back in to see who won skins.

 

I use Golfshot and enter my scores between each hole. I walk, and many people ride. It usually takes us between 3:30 and 3:45 to play 18. I prefer using it over a paper scorecard.

[DaveLeeNC]

If I was a walker I would definitely be reconsidering my view of phone apps for score recording. dave

[Newby]

Why is it such a big deal to keep multiple scores? Why not simply do what the RoG require? Exchange (or rotate) cards with a marker. Put two scores on the card.; the other player's and yours. Do the same with a phone if you prefer. Simples

[bladehunter]

No. The not wanting to ask isn’t about a new habit at all. It comes from playing in larger competition and the stigma that goes with being the guy who always has to ask on each hole “ what did you have “ to the person he’s marking for. Some people voice a real aggravation for being asked each hole. And I guess I see that in that you’re supposed to be marking a score. If I take the guys word for it , Am I really able to attest to its being correct ? I don’t believe I can say that. So when it’s one card swap I make it a point to actually keep that persons score. I just can’t do that for 4.

 

I hope that’s makes sense. I’ve had people tell me that a marker signing a persons card isn’t responsible for actually keeping their score. I just can’t see how. It seems rather fake to sign for someone’s score if I don’t know what he shot , right?

[bladehunter]

@Augster
care to explain the 5 handicap to +2 mention you have on the post above ?

Not questioning you , just want to understand.

[ThinkingPlus]

BH, I think @Augster is indicating that when he plays a set of tees way forward with a very low course rating his Course Handicap will go way down because of the (CR - Par) calculation included in the new WHS rules under the USGA.

[bladehunter]

As in you’re almost assigned a tee after playing that tee for a while , then if you move up the cap itself goes down ? Presumably until it evens out with enough scores from the up tee ?

 

Or os he just describing the same thing we have now with tee rating differentials , and saying it a different way ? To me what he is saying means he’s a + 5 no matter who he’s playing against and/or what’s tee they play. Vs now where if both parties move up , no difference in strokes exists. It takes one to move up and one to stay back etc to need to involve which tee is played. Right ?

[davep043]

Under the WHS, as enacted by the USGA, what used to be the "adjustment" for playing different tees is included in your every-day Course Handicap. This will be easier at tournament time, players from forward tees won't feel like "They're taking away my strokes". Of course, they'll feel that way as soon they start playing under the new system, but they'll get used to it by the time tournaments start.

[bladehunter]

So the handicap does indeed change with tee played on that day ? Interesting.

 

Me thinks that handicap committee spots next year should include a salary. I’m absolutely not interested in being the one to explain this. I’ve read quite a bit on it. But I find it pretty packed with jargon etc and not easy for my ignorant eyes to piece together. To say that our club isn’t ready for this is the worlds largest understatement. I don’t think anyone else there knows a Change is even coming.

[ThinkingPlus]

If you include (CR - Par) in all Course Handicaps then whether everyone plays the same tees or several different tees, the handicaps are automatically compensated so you no longer have to do the additional differential calculation for different tees. This process should have minimal impact to Handicap Indices with the exception of how hole scores will be limited by NDB. Since NDB is intimately connected to Course Handicap there will be some minor impact of Course Handicap on Handicap Index.