What in the world is "Pope of Slope" talking about here? (new WHS par adjustment)

[Shilgy]

Psst,you are a +4 from those tees- not a 2 CHhttps://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html

 

[TheCityGame]

LOL. Bring it up with the Grint.

FTR, I DO NOT trust the Grint to handle this change well. They don't even seem to have the capacity to combine 9 hole scores. My official cap is kept through Maryland SGA.

 

[Augster]

My home course, gold/senior tees are 64.4/112.

Turtleback, where Kev is, from the red tee for men is 66.0/112.

My home 9-hole course is 31.1/108, par 33.

Just have to play REALLY short courses to get the slope below 113. If a course has any distance at all it’ll be above 113.

[Ty_Webb]

SkyGolf Courses | SkyGolf 360The "50/70" on there is the course rating and slope.

 

[Obee]

So far, it feels like +caps are getting the worst of it at my club. I'm a +0.1 right now and I'm a +1 at my easy home course from the back tees (Par 72, 71.3, 129). How the PHOCK did that happen? +0.1 used to be a 0, literally everywhere. Or is this just the rounding because our par is .7 below our rating???

[ThinkingPlus]

(CR - Par) is pushing you down to +1. So how easy is the #18 hole? LOL!

[Obee]

So just did some calcs: a 2.0 is a 2. A 3.0 is a 3. A 4.0 is a 4. A 5.0 is a 5, but somehow a 0.0 is a +1??? I'm having trouble with that one...

I guess a 1.0 does go to 0, though.

just feels like, in the new system, everyone is getting an additional stroke from me this year...

[Shilgy]

Think of it this way Obee. Seems to be the easiest way I have found to explain it to my golf buddies...

 

We all grew familiar with the slider on the old app. The one that had your index and you slid it for strokes based on the slope from various tees. All that is happened is that the results from the slider “slid” a bit. The new course handicap is based on you play to your daily handicap cap relative to par rather than the course rating. The added benefit is that we do not need the additional tee adjustment if we are playing someone that plays a different set of tees.

[Obee]

You forgot: "...and Obee gets screwed."

 

;-)

[Shilgy]

I thought we all knew the usga was out to get you and that was automatically baked into the formula!

[Seamus_McDuff]

 

A 4.0 used to be a 5 and a 5.0 used to be a 6.

[Obee]

Don't bother me with details, man!!!

[b.helts]

I played a skins game last weekend from a combo set of tees white/blue and was a +5. Par 72, shot 69 and got my ass handed to me. Luckily there was a team game that was 1 gross 1 net.

i know everyone’s handicaps from that set of tees was a bit lower but +5!! I’m an old chop. +5!?! Pssshhha

[Hawkeye77]

LOL!

From a completely different perspective, I don't care what we are playing for, if I shoot a magical 69 as a 6.8 against a +5 (and win, because that's not a given) not only are you not paying me, I'm buying you dinner and you can buy me a beverage.

[Obee]

Dude. You're such a great guy. :-)

[Sean2]

I agree. The place I play is a 9 hole course, and during tournaments we use split tees: Black for the front, Yellow for the back (championship flight is black/black). I don't play in the tournaments because the black tees are a bit long for me (our course is very tight and littered with hazards and a number of holes call for an iron off the tee, but I need to hit a driver or wood and there is no margin for error on the tee shot), so I don't play. The CH difference between the split tees and yellow/yellow is one stroke. I would much rather give up the one stroke and play yellow/yellow. I will be 65 in a couple of months and hopefully will have the option of playing yellow/yellow as I miss playing in tournaments.

An aside: I played once in this Tour of Boston event. When I signed up I told the director that I don't hit the ball very far and gave him my HI...and he said I would be playing the tees I could manage. When I showed up, they had me playing 6850 yards. When I asked about that they said it was based on my HI. The director was there and he said those were the tees I had to play. I hit one iron shot all day (a 7-iron). Every par 4 was driver, fairway wood, and either a pitch or chip to the green. Three of the par 3's I hit driver, and the other I hit a 3 wood. I did manage to break 90 (89), but the entire round was a struggle. The guys I was paired with were great. One par 4 had a tee shot that required a 250 carry over a hazard. I had to hit a shot to the forward tees, and then a wood from there, lol. According to the PGA/USGA, the ideal yardage for me is 5400-5600 yards.

I would like to play in more tournaments outside of my home course, but the tees are simply too long for me.

[Imp]

Howdy Sean! Your home course is too short/easy where your index may not be a true reflection of your capability to play other courses. Small pond and all that. If anything, the new calculations will (or should, see below) take all that into account. :)

Using the new Course Handicap Calculator, if I were playing Yellows, or the Black/Yellow combo, my CH would be 22... But if I were playing the Blacks... 15? That makes NO sense.

So I went and looked at the Course/Slope Database. And... I think there's some data that's incorrect, if I'm understanding it properly. I think someone at Harmon needs to get in touch with the MGA to update it at the USGA before the season starts. National Course Rating Database According to the link ^^^^ , it says Black is a Par 70, Yellow/Black is a Par 61 and Yellow is a Par 60. (I know that to be not true).

Yet, looking at the Front/Back 9 separate values:

Black (F) 35.3/127 & (B) 35.3/127. ---- 35.3 + 35.3 is 70.6.

Black/Yellow (F) 35.3/127 (B) 33.9/124 ---- 35.2+33.9 = 69.1 (Yet, Par is listed as 61???)

Yellow (F) 33.9/124 (B) 33.9/124 ---- 33.9 + 33.9 = 67.8 (Yet, Par is listed as 60????)

Since the CH is using the listed PAR, at 60 for Yellow and 61 for Black/Yellow, it's giving me extra strokes that I should not be getting. Ouch. You may want to bring this up with your clubs leadership if no one else has.

[Sean2]

On a bit of a side note, I see it in handicapped match play tournaments. If the scratch is playing against a high HI who is getting a lot of strokes, and has a half-way decent day, the scratch golfer really has no chance. For example, to halve a par 5, a friend of mine had to make an eagle as his opponent made par, net eagle.

I know, I know the handicap thing is there to level the playing field, but clearly the scratch golfer is the better player, but still loses. Just doesn't seem right, lol.

[ousuxndallas]

This whole thing stinks. How does it help to "grow the game" if you need a PhD in statistics to play golf?

The handicap system is broken, pure and simple.

[ThinkingPlus]

Well, there is a minimum amount of intelligence required to properly play golf and keep a handicap. The level of smarts needed hasn't changed by a significant amount in the last couple of months and will always limit the growth of the game.

[davep043]

You don't need to do anything more than be able to count the number of strokes you take, and MAYBE to be able to add 18 numbers to get your total score. All the thinking has been done for you already.

How does it help "grow the game"? Well, you can have an official handicap after playing entering only 54 holes, sooner than you could before. And your handicap index can be as high as 54, which means a lot of absolute beginners can have a moderately accurate handicap, and not be limited to a maximum index of 34. Both of those changes will make the Handicap System more inclusive.

[davep043]

I've seen this said many times, and I just don't believe its true. If a high handicapper has an AVERAGE day, and the scratch has an average day, the scratch will shoot a stroke or two better, net. That gives him a little edge. If a 36 has a moderately poor day, the scratch would have to have a REALLY bad day to lose. Its only when the 36 has a really good day, one of his best 4 or 5, that he makes it really tough on the scratch. And if he shoots his best round (of the last 20) its nearly impossible for the scratch to win. But the 36 SHOULD win when he shoots his best scores, shouldn't he?

[Sean2]

Yes, he should win, but he is clearly not the better golfer, even though he won. Just my opinion though. I have no need to convince anyone else of it's efficacy.

[nsxguy]

The handicap system was not invented to identify the better golfer (even though it typically does).

It was invented to provide a roughly level playing field.

But then you already know that.

[nsxguy]

"I've seen this said many times, and I just don't believe its true. If a high handicapper has an AVERAGE day, and the scratch has an average day, the scratch will shoot a stroke or two better, net. That gives him a little edge."

Are there stats to back that up ? I mean, it sounds right; just not sure it is.

[Shilgy]

No stats but my experience says it’s correct. At the end of last year a few friends and I compared stats. As we all know the USGA says players will average about 3 strokes over their cap. I was averaging two over and some higher teen cap friends were averaging almost four strokes over. They had many blow up days that skewed the overall average. My bad days are rarely really blow up days(unfortunately there have not been enough exceptional days either of late).

 

But in that context I would tend to think an average score day would favor the lower cap?

[Ty_Webb]

I think what people don't like is that if the scratch has his best day of his last 20 and the 18 capper has his best day, then the scratch has no hope. What grinds for the scratch player is playing someone like that who has a great day means they are utterly powerless.

That said, if they both have a 75th percentile day, then they'll have a close match. If they both have an average day then the scratch will win and if they both have a poor day then the scratch will win comfortably. Higher handicaps typically have higher variances in their scores. By making handicap be a measure of potential rather than average, that firmly puts the benefit in the scratch player's pocket. In my experience, most of the time club knockout events tend to be contested by lower handicaps in the later rounds.

[davep043]

To reply to @nsxguy , I don't have enough stats to make a valid statistical argument, but @Ty_Webb and @Shilgy just explained my understanding very clearly.
As to the first paragraph here, NOBODY likes the idea that he could play one of his very best rounds and lose. In my experience, and knowing that I'm stereotyping, higher handicappers are more willing to accept that situation than scratch players. The scratch players will take that very rare situation, their really good round losing to a high-handicapper's really good round, as proof that the entire system is tilted against them, when in reality its tilted the other way.

[jonnymc44]

I won Captain's Day at our Club last year. At the time I was an 8 handicapper and shot a level par round for 44 pts (we play Stableford on Captain's Day), second best round I've ever had. I won on a back 9 card playoff against a 24 handicapper. After my ill-prepared speech, the Captain whispered, "I'm glad you won and not the other guy, high handicappers always win it and it's unfair when they have the handicap on their side."

Had I lost, I would have been gracious in defeat, however would have begrudged the handicapping system. For our online scoring we use Masters Scoreboard and this is what they state:

 

Players with lower Handicaps will typically play to a narrower range of scores than players with high Handicaps, whose results will have a wider spread.For players with CONGU Handicaps, research has shown that a Category 1 ( plus players to 5.5 hcp) player will typically play to an average of 2 shots above their Handicap, whereas a Category 4 player (21 to 24 hcp) will average 5 or 6 shots above their Handicap.A rough and ready rule is to take one quarter of your Handicap and add 1.5. This would be your target average score over Handicap. Thus a 28 handicapper would be expected to average 8.5 shots above their Handicap. For a 4 handicapper it would be 2.5. Note: 9 Hole Qualifying scores are excluded from this plot, due to different Buffer Zones applying for 9 hole competitions.

[sui generis]

Low handicap players seemingly demand that they win everything! Not content to win gross events, they assert that their superior skills automatically give them claim to net events also.