USGA DISTANCE INSIGHT

[15th Club]

Maybe I can help, with adjustments to courses so that no rollback of balls would be necessary...

So we could place a windmill at 335 yards, with a hole in the bottom of it, and any drive longer than that could ricochet off one of the rotating blades unless you got lucky.

And then, at the green, there would be a ramp leading up to a giant clown face, with the hole in the center of the clown’s mouth.

Kids love clowns. ? It would help grow the game. Other holes could feature universal gyms, obstacle courses, marble putting greens and of course waterfalls. Because the greatest courses in the world have waterfalls.

 

[QuigleyDU]

Can the ramp look like a dinosaur??

[tungstenplug]

I think the USGA did well with the groove rule, no anchoring the putter rule, drop from knee height rule, among other things. I'm confident they will come up with reasonable solutions even if it does take several years

Edited February 26, 2023 by tungstenplug

[15th Club]

That just went to the top of the list of “things I wish I wrote today.” I was ready to delete my post. You have changed my mind, and made my day.

[QuigleyDU]

 

Hahaha. Good. A little humor goes a long way!!

[Dpavs]

That's an interesting thought about needing to be less accurate the closer you are to the green. It makes me want to see a course designed so that the closer you get to the green the greater the penalty for missing the fairway or the green by more than a few yards. For example really gnarly rough, unforgiving steep sided deep bunkers.. etc. I would love to see how this would impact long hitters...this obviously comes from my sadistic and demonic side...lol!

[15th Club]

Somebody mentioned the name of Paul Casey (Titleist ball contract) as a rebuttal to my questioning the self-interest of Titleist players in the rollback debate.

The suggestion was that Casey was amenable to a rollback, so my general suspicions may be unfounded.

Well. I looked for the latest quotes from Casey (per Rex Hoggard), and this was what I found:

****

“[The golf ball] shouldn’t be the focus of why guys are hitting the ball as far as they are,” Paul Casey said. “It’s one of multiple reasons guys are hitting it so far. It shouldn’t get the entire blame. Don’t just blame the golf ball, it’s unfair to do that. Is it a factor? Of course.”

Casey went through a familiar line up of habitual offenders, from improved fitness and teaching to golf course agronomy and the lure of golf to attract bigger athletes in recent decades.

“You have to focus on equipment to dial it back, because you’re not going to stop us [from going to the gym],” Casey said. “Yes, you can slow the ball down, and that seems to be the obvious element everyone looks at, but I’d like to see smaller driver heads. If you went to a smaller driver-head size, guys might go for more loft, a slightly spinnier golf ball to keep it in play and that would reduce overall distance.”

****

It sounds to me like Casey has been forced to admit the obvious but would love to defend the status quo for balls if at all possible. It won’t be possible, Paul. Glad you like your Mizunos.

 

[QuigleyDU]

 

That was me. This is the quote I read.

 

Paul Casey, looking to better his runner-up finish at last year’s AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am, also didn’t have a chance to read the details of the distance project. He said, generally, as a professional, he’ll deal with whatever is required to do his job; but as a lover of the game, he doesn’t like seeing what’s happening to some great courses.

“If the effect is it starts to make golf courses obsolete, that’s an issue,” he said.

 

Again not really pointing at the ball but seem sympathetic. Which was my point. Now Cantley toes the quote unquote Titleist "party line" if there is one.

 

Patrick Cantlay, No. 8 in the Official World Golf Ranking, finds sympathy for the recreational player. He doesn’t see distance as an issue at the grassroots level of the game, where the sport’s health depends.

“All the equipment and stuff are great for the amateur golfers,” Cantlay said. “The ball can’t go too far for a 10-handicap.”

[15th Club]

And my most fervent hope and greatest optimism is that recreational players will never see much change, if any, in a future rollback. The USGA and R&A know who they want to target, and who they don’t want to target.

They are ONLY concerned about elite level play, and have said so in every way imaginable.

In fact, I have it on good authority that the USGA does not wish to rollback the 348.7 yard average driving distance of GolfWRX members. “Those guys are such insufferable whiners; we are giving them all an exemption until the year 2929,” a senior USGA official told me.

 

[QuigleyDU]

Yeah.. Not sure how you can target one and not affect the other in this sport.. I still really really hope bifurcation does not happen. Either do something across the board or do not do it at all.

[oiler45]

No offence taken, however I think your term "ignorant" is unwarranted. I clearly stated this was my opinion only - I would think that after golfing for over four decades my opinions should be considered.

I did say "I may be wrong" when it comes to the costs driving golf. Your comment that "entire industry is dedicated to studying the golf industry" and there are "decades and decades worth of reports" leaves me somewhat unconvinced. In my experience, studies on contentious subjects - anthropogenic climate change a prime example - often come with an agenda, and often yield the conclusions that the paid sponsors of said studies want.

I realize that other sports use a standardized ball or puck but you missed my point. Pick hockey - If you think watching an NHL game in 1960 with players using a $10 straight bladed wooded stick is the same as 2020 hockey and their $300 carbon fibre sticks - well we are going to have to agree to disagree. My point is sports change and evolve, you can't pick a point in time and say "that's when it was the best". Also, I'm sorry if I don't feel guilty that your hallowed Oakmont or Merion, which cater to .1% of the golfing population, become obsolete.

Aside from all this, the bottom line is there are two camps on this subject, those that feel dialing back distance is good for the game and those that feel the opposite. IN MY OPINION if (theoretically) the distance the ball travelled was cut back 20% tomorrow, in three years time the cost of golf would not be significantly lower, TV viewership would not be significantly higher, and tee sheets would not be full of young 20 something golfers new to the game keen to use their skills to carve balls left and right into tucked pins. I would guess the opposite, participation in the sport for the 99% of golfers who do not hit the ball too far would continue to decline because a very difficult, costly and time consuming game would be even more difficult and frustrating. Once again, this is just my opinion and I admit I could be completely wrong.

I hope this thread doesn't kill you, and I hope you have a great day.

 

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

I get that. 10 par 4 and 4 par 5 2 strokes is pretty significant for a single digit player, but most players 2 strokes is the difference between 95 and 97 or something like that?

To me 30 yards as an amateur isn’t night and day. I outdrive many of my partners by that much, but in the end it really is how many.

[tannyhoban]

Rolling back tee boxes isn't going to save a marginally profitable public course in it's 2nd or 3rd generation of ownership when the real estate it's sitting on is prime.

[oikos1]

Nothing is getting rolled back. Maybe a freeze, and the report clearly left that time frame open-ended, but at a minimum three years from now to have even gathered "information" to make a decision about another decision.

The local rule for a tournament ball is interesting, but what venue is willing to to be the first asterisk on the PGA Tour?

Those that want change soon are going to have to continue to seek out the local "Cleek and Gutty within a days drive" tournament.

[jmck]

It’s going to be the Masters and they have the clout to do it. Might not ever happen, but a week or two back Fred Ridley held a presser and pretty clearly reserved the right to act unilaterally if they feel the need to.

[airjammer]

oh it’s coming..15th club has fore told pretty much word for word what the report would say.

It’s going to be the ball at minimum probably with less layers. Depending on how they ago about things they can make sure you get less spin out of the rough something they didn’t get with the groove rule and 99% of golfers won’t even know anything changed. I wouldn’t be surprised they are talking to people like scott Fawcett on the ball needs to be constructed to combat bomb and gauge.

[15th Club]

There’s a funny thing about Augusta. Almost all of the long holes, with the exception of just a very few going uphill — 8, 18, 9 — are famous for their racy fairways and the importance of positioning and great advantages to properly-placed tee shots.

And Bob Jones, like Dr. Mackenzie and Perry Maxwell, expected them to be firm and fast.

But in the face of advancing distances, I think ANGC has pulled several unwise tricks to try to slow things down. Mowing fairways uniformly back toward tees. More watering. Top dressing and aerifying to soften them.

The problem is what Sergio Garcia has complained about; mudballs. I have always been surprised that more players have not complained. All the things I mentioned pose a much increased chance of a mudball. And they happen with much greater frequency than I think is commonly appreciated at “the National.”

I think that ANGC could play even faster on the ground, and for shorter and longer hitters alike, it would be thrilling to see.

[gvogel]

But if the powers that be can agree on a roll back of the ball and drivers, maybe the old geezers that I used to watch when I worked at a golf golf course, maybe those guys would move up to the forward (ladies) tees. Because I remember watching a foursome play a par 3 hole, with a creek in front of the green. The hole was probably playing 160 yards. One guy in the foursome carried the ball left of the green with an iron. The other 3 guys hit driver, and none could carry the creek.

Ego. The three older guys should have been playing from the ladies tees.

Ball roll back - no big deal. Most of us need to swallow our egos and play from shorter tees.

[15th Club]

By the way; what is more challenging and fun to watch; a drive that flies 300 yards and bounces 5 more yards, or a drive that flies 265 and bounces 40?

The 40 yards of runout demands that you understand all of the course and how that 40 yards of run must be shaped. It will probably pressure you to shape the flight of the ball if you need to counter the angle of a bounce.

The 300 yard point-and-shoot drive requires less thought, less understanding, less planning. And it is as interesting as an extra point in football.

Firmer and faster golf courses, plus rolled-back balls is the ticket to much more interesting golf.

 

[QuigleyDU]

Maybe, I am still Leary that the USGA is too reactionary and does not think things through well enough. But, I respect your historical knowledge, and you and @bladehunter are starting to wear down my defenses.
I would love to see some proposals and trials. I still think the recreational golfer MUST be the focus and not the exception. Is that happens and some type of additional cap or rule happens. I could potentially live with it.

But I will pout for a while.

[Wesquire]

As pointed out earlier in the thread, the added distance has only gone up by like 5% while costs have increased 50%. It isnt the distance that is to blame.

[15th Club]

“I would love to see some proposals and trials.”

Aha! Some trials! Good idea. And that is one of the few specific proposals coming out of the Distance Insights report. The USGA is opening itself up to events with reduced-distance balls, single-design balls, etc.

As you very rightly suggest.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

So, all we have to do is nerf the ball and bake the fairways even more. It all makes sense, now.

[QuigleyDU]

They need to try other things as well.

[Holy Moses]

I haven't read through all the comments, but I will. Here are my random thoughts.

How does the USGA not have the data on amateur golf driver distances over the years in the US? Isn't that probably the first or second most important stat that this study was supposed to deliver?I would imagine that the USGA is going to change the ball. It's easier than clubs are to change because you just have to change one thing. You could make the driver smaller, reduce COR/CT, but the ball will be easier. Even if the USGA makes a local rule for the PGA Tour and other high level Tours, what do you do the all of the land already used by courses that are playing long? Are these courses going to just let the tee boxes at the tips be unmaintained? Someone is still going to want to play those tees. The damage is already done and even if the clubs or ball is changed, we already have long courses that aren't going anywhere. I don't see how courses are going to stop watering and maintaining the back tees. If the USGA goes after the everyday golfer with these restrictions, no one is going to abide by them or the game could be significantly harmed. Doesn't sound they like they are going in that direction. Since the multi-layer, solid core golf ball came out, amateurs aren't hitting the ball any further from what I can tell from than they were 20 years ago. So where has all of the technology the equipment companies said was supposed to result in increased yards gone? An earlier poster said that players are hitting the ball further, it's just that this added distance moved them to a higher handicap level and evened the stats out. But how can you not have data for the US and more clear data too?

[oikos1]

"The 300 yard point-and-shoot drive"

Lol. You make it sound so easy to do. And yes, some are suggesting there is a problem with 40 yards of roll out.

[munichop]

If changes are made at the highest level it will be under conditions of competition like the groove rule. Then it can be said bifurcation doesn’t exist. For those that think technology is responsible for the majority of the gains I offer you my own experience. In 2000 I had 110 mph driver speed and averaged 277 with a steel 250cc metal driver and balata ball when I won a city amateur. I recently put a new motore shaft in my 460 titanium driver and gained back 10 yards min to average 262 with a 2 piece tru feel ball. But I have lost 15 mph driver speed which should mean between 35-40 yards of lost distance, not 15. In my golf history I noticed truly significant gains in distance only 4 times, switching from steel to titanium for a driver, going from balata to solid core balls, getting a ust proforce shaft and now this motore change. During these changes golf has really become more point and shoot. My best chance against the bombers is wind, most can’t play in it. I peaked at a plus 4.6 and now am a plus 2.5. I putt better now than 20 years ago for 2 reasons, better more consistent surfaces and truer rolling balls. People think they are better golfers than they actually are because the gyroscopic, better engineered golf balls are longer, more consistent and curve and spin less than they used to. This permits more confident aggressive fearless golf. The nature of the game is just completely different mentally now.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

I’d counter that many could swing much faster, if the ball didn’t go as far because the consequences are not as severe. Chances are we’ll never go back to steel drivers, and Balata balls start to blister after a few good shots. Those steel head and Balata days were far from good but we’re certainly old. Plus, Balata doesn’t really go that much shorter anyway, until it starts to delaminate.

It’s like wanting old low resolution black and white TV because you don’t like seeing the imperfections in your favorite actors faces on HD TV.

[MOAB]

Just bring back the balata and make it the standard on tour.

[OldTomMorris]

The PGA Tour has basically said they won't go for a rollback.

I appreciate many people think the solution is simple and some of the ideas would be easy to implement in theory but I haven't heard a suggestion yet that wouldn't have severe push back from at least one major group within the game whether its the PGA Tour/the professional players, equipment manufacturers etc.