Kevin Na vs WRX

[Stinger83]

 

You're talking about 90% of golfers. I'm talking SPECIFICALLY about GOOD PLAYERS. Guys that have broken par before. Guys that play "player's cavity backs". As I said - there's very little difference and FOR THOSE GUYS control is more important than distance. That is what I'm saying. I'm not saying anyone who's never broken 80 should EVEN CONSIDER blades - no.

[ex0dus]

Didnt Na turn pro right out of high school? He has been competing a long time as a pro against guys who hit it longer and higher than he does. Makes perfect sense for him to play cbs.

I would bet that mbs are far more common in the bags of long hitters vs short hitters on tour.

 

 

 

[1Mordrid1]

And if you read that and use any type of common sense reasoning you can figure out that that calling it a "hot spot" is a misnomer.

The article states that a flier is because of a shot high off the face, that retains close to the max ball speed, while reducing spin. That means it is a flier, not a "hot spot" or some magical "trampoline effect". Hence, these fliers are strike related. So if anyone out there thinks that they should play blades because they are "more accurate" because when they play cavity back irons they get fliers from the fairway, then obviously that person is not as good of a ball striker as they think they are. Of course then you get the people who will argue that a smaller blade makes people focus more. Well, I hate to break it to that person, but concentration is what allows you to focus more. If you have a lack of focus because the club footprint is bigger, then that is a self discipline problem, not a club design problem.

The bottom line for anyone is you should play what you want to play, and what you enjoy playing. But if you feel the need to justify your choice with the excuses above, then maybe that means you need to be honest with yourself. It just simply means you play blades because you enjoy them. And that should be enough reason to play them.

 

[dacatalyst41]

I absolutely believe ego plays a huge role in club selection. Can't count how many guys I've seen in the last year trading in "players irons" for more forgiving alternatives. If clubs didn't retain some semblance of trade in value, we'd all be in trouble. Haha.

[Red4282]

This thread is kinda silly to me... cavity backs can be vastly different ranging from ultra forgiving to something like the mp18sc, titleist 620cb, where they are no forgiving than their blade counterparts. Same thing with blades. Their are some blades that are more forgiving than others. Mp4 and srixon zforged come to mind as a fairly forgiving blade. Id even argue some cbs are harder to game than some blades.

most pros could play either just fine to be honest.

[mahonie]

Flier or hot spot makes no difference, whatever you call it, it leads to inconsistency in distance control which for me is a complete no no in the way I play. I don’t get the ‘smaller blade makes you focus more’ argument that you deride. Many CBs have smaller blade lengths than MBs these days, you only have to look at Titleist CBs, so the argument makes no sense.

My experience of playing GI clubs is that I don’t feel like I can miss and just end up trying to hit the ball harder and harder. My ‘swing’ becomes a ‘hit’ and I lose the little bit of control that I have and end up all over the place...left, right, long and short.

Now if like Na you have to hit the ball high and straight to suit nearly every one-dimensional PGA Tour layout, I can understand making your game fit that requirement and playing clubs that give you that outcome, particularly if you are not that long. I think it’s one of the reasons why the US struggle to win at the Ryder Cup. The PGA Tour creates one-dimensional players who are not able to compete as they are less well-rounded than their European counterparts and struggle when ‘shots’ have to be played to win holes and matches. You look at any European Ryder Cup layout...they’re all set up so that not every shot needs to be high and straight. Having said that, it may be a moot point in this discussion because I’m not even sure if Na has made a Ryder Cup team.

[Red4282]

The one flaw in your assessment, is high level high speed players generally have alot of shaft lean, ala dustin johnson. This moves the strike higher in the face. So its not that they are “not a good striker”, its just the sweetspot has to be naturally higher for them.

[BdeBarcelona]

Many pro players use CB irons, Jordan Spieth among others have use AP2 for years, so what is the commotion about. I agree with the general sentiment in that you should play what you like and enjoy the game being amateurs, the pros should play what gives them the best results.

[MK7Golf21]

this is true

[Rapatt95]

GolfWRX: Civil War

[BirdieBob]

Champions Tour........Blades and Long Irons...........LOL, LOL, LOL....Not happening except in a very rare case.

[MK7Golf21]

I haven't looked at the champions tour witb's much or lpga but from what I recall blades aren't used nearly as much on these tours. Diminished speed has alot to do with it, they don't have the swing speed to fully take advantage of blades especially in the longer irons, would be fine in the scoring clubs.

[mtg]

loft is the key here... most anyone has a cutoff where a blade is a worthy club. For some its a sand wedge, not a lot of people clamoring for GI lob wedges. For some an 8 iron should be their last blade. For most pros its the 5 or 6 iron they feel comfortable carrying. Just learn this and you'll have the best set for you. Blades are awesome if you have enough loft in your hands, they suck when you're 210 out and need to carry it all the way to a front pin.

If you're asking yourself, why carry a blade 7 iron though when you can get a little forgiveness then that's not your cutoff. Go higher. If I asked you why you have a vokey 54 degree instead of some shovel you instinctively know the answer - well for those of us who can hit a blade 7 iron our answer is from the very same place.

[chisag]

... As an instructor and personally I believe everyone should play the most forgiving irons they can effectively play. This means different things to different players. I don't work the ball side to side as a general rule, other than to get out of trouble. I do however control my trajectory on most of my shots. Playing in windy conditions much more than not here in Chicago, I play knockdowns and 3/4 shots quite a bit. I find that easier to accomplish with a players iron. As a + index I consider myself a good ball striker, but not a great ball striker. My game is different every day, partially due to back surgeries and a little to do with age and slightly diminished swing speed. On a good day I can play my Z Forged MB's and not suffer much other than maybe a long iron or two. On a bad swing day the Z Forged are quite penal. For me, one shot a round that could have been better with a players cb than a MB is enough for me to play something more forgiving. My point being, a players CB give me everything I can get from my MB's with more forgiveness that I may not need every round or every shot, but I can take advantage of on some shots or even entire rounds. For me that is a no brainer.

... When I taught full time most of my students missed all over the face, but mostly all over the toe, sometimes off the grooves. These golfers could only effectively play SGI's with the maximum forgiveness when mishitting the ball. In 5 years of teaching I had 3 students that in my professional opinion did and should have played MB's. And even 2 of those would have benefited from a few players cb's for their long irons. Only one student had the kind of swing speed and ball striking ability to play MB's effectively. He already hit the ball high and very accurately and rarely mishit the ball. I am not saying none of my other students could't play MB's if they desired, because some could. But they mishit enough shots to have benefitted from at least a mixed set if not all players cb's. I had one student that admitted MB's were a poor choice for his ability but just loved playing them and was not going to consider anything else. I had no problem at all with that and never even considered trying to get him to change his mind. The other MB players that clearly could have benefitted from something more forgiving, I had them hit different shots under different conditions and proved to them they could score better with a more forgiving iron. Most of them switched because they came to me to improve their game and were interested in shooting their lowest scores.

... Obviously the players on all the tours worldwide play the most forgiving irons they can effectively play because their fulltime job depends on them shooting their lowest score. Ego, turf interaction, look of the cavity, and personal challenge have nothing to do with their irons choice. So a combination of ALL the best players in the world on ALL the tours who are much better than every single member here on WRX, play something other than MB's. If we took the top 100 from every Professional Tour, only a handful play MB's. So if the vast majority of the best players in the world feel they need all the forgiveness they can get while still having the control and consistency they need, I think we can make the argument very few here should be playing them if scoring is their primary goal and more important than all other considerations. Many that post in MB threads state quite clearly they play what they like playing, some even admitting it isn't the best choice for score but the best choice for their personal enjoyment. I don't think anyone here disagrees with that hence the thousands of "play what you like" comments because as is also beat to death here, nobody really cares what you play, they are just sharing their opinions and not trying too talk anyone out of anything. Otoh there are several that seem to insist everyone should at least try MB's because they improve your concentration, are more accurate, have better turf interaction or a myriad of other reasons. The irony is while they are telling others that they should be playing MB's, they take offense at any post that even remotely suggests they might be better off with more forgiving players irons. Imo that os what sends these threads off the rails, not a difference of opinion handled respectively.

 

[wobgon]

Or perhaps it is because it is a competition where one country is competing against 12.

[msses]

That's not it.

[MK7Golf21]

A few weeks ago I looked at the top 40 in world golf rankings and 50% are using mb irons., it was like 18 out of 40 players I only bring that up because it's alot more than a handful.

[roundersmitty]

Well...I guess it could be said that some blades are easier to hit than the irons Na uses. PXG is a good example.

Hope I don't stir the pot too much....

[msses]

I would have expected a much higher percentage.

[jons1]

 

A thoughtfully written post in what is a s**** show of a thread.

If only this could be the end of this horrible, horrible, and totally useless thread so we could all stop getting notifications about this never ending debate... that will only end with a thread lock... but I digress.

 

[raywutang]

tbf, his exact quote never really criticized anyone for playing blades, he was more just talking about his own experience with them: “I can’t play a blade,” Na said. “It’s too difficult, and I’m a pro golfer. I think a blade goes shorter. Off-center hits aren’t going to perform as well as cavity-backs. I don’t see a reason why you’d want to play a blade. I really don’t. I played blades in my early 20s, maybe one year — when I was dumb. But I’m wiser now and play a cavity-back.”

also, the guy is not a journeyman pro, he's been on the PGA Tour for 15+ years and currently sits 29th on the all-time money list ahead of respectable names like Stenson, Casey...

i definitely agree that he has made the most of what he's got and i think his insight into his equipment choices is helpful to all (blade user or not). he uses the stuff that helps him accomplish his goals.

[chisag]

 

... I am not going to take the time to check your math, as well as knowing more than a few on the PGA Tour have CB long irons in their bag. But compared to all the Tours, including European men and women along with the Korn Ferry, Futures, etc even using your number, only 18 golfers is most definitely just a handful.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Haha no, but it’s certainly clear many have been brainwashed by equipment manufacturers.

[Nels55]

Wait a minute PXG are blades? I thought that I was way on the game improvement side of the spectrum?

[mahonie]

“When I taught full time most of my students missed all over the face, but mostly all over the toe, sometimes off the grooves.”

What on earth were you teaching them!!

Thanks for cheering me up...gave me a real belly laugh ????

[chisag]

 

... You are always a ray of sunshine. I was a Non Member Head Professional with the IPGA and taught out of an executive course. Many students had either never played golf more than a few rounds or never played any other sport but came to me for lessons picking up the game in their 40's or 50's. Most golf Pro's are giving the majority of their lessons to beginners or high index players. It is not rare to have players come in for lessons that completely miss the ball. Teaching better players was always a treat, but they were the minority, especially early in my teaching career. After word of mouth got around, I started picking up better players but my 5th year teaching I had a double discectomy and my teaching days were over.

[BirdieBob]

PXG makes a blade called the 0311ST! Note the perimeter weighting screws on this iron.https://www.pxg.com/en-us/clubs/irons/0311st

Also the 0311T model performs very similarly to the ST but is a cavity iron.

[MK7Golf21]

I was looking at world golf rankings, that's all the men's tours including european, korn ferry, etc.. 18 golfers out of top 40 so obviously there would be more than 18 if you increase the sample size of world golf rankings. It's also tougher to find the WITB of guys higher up in the list. I would expect the percentage to get lower using blades as you get higher in the world golf rankings though simply because the guys higher up are trying anything to keep their card and find magic in a bottle.

[mahonie]

The nuances of the English language are fascinating...you can read a sentence in several ways and at first pass, I was chuckling for a good few minutes. ?

Fair play for passing your knowledge on...doesn’t happen too often these days.

 

[Pepperturbo]

@ThinkingPlus - I can't see anyone especially OEM providing all data on every iron in every iron set. It's not plausible, but it would be nice. Not sure how many people would actually benefit from that data though. As it is, OEM's have backed away from providing offset, bounce and camber, claiming it's propitiatory, what a joke. They are just to da** lazy but that's another labor topic.

I find the MFP evaluation numbers a bit odd. Look at the 6 iron category and ratings from my sets:
Titleist 620CB is Conventional 6i is 465
Titleist 716CB Conventional 6i is 464.
Titleist 620MB Classic 6i is 287. That's a difficulty spread that I just don't experience.
TM TSi TP is Classic 6i at 386
Callaway original X-Forged is Game Improvement at 636
@BirdieBob - that PXG 0311ST blade is clearly contemporary using 3 tungsten screws as perimeter weighting much like Titleist uses tungsten weights in the toe and heal of 620CB 3-4 iron only. I haven't hit them but sure they are much more forgiving than many blades and look really nice, odd loft configuration though.