Kevin Na vs WRX

[ThinkingPlus]

Yes I understand pretty well what makes a club difficult to play or not.

[Nard_S]

LOl, sorry. Let's all carry on with mythical 2mm sweet spot.

[wobgon]

Stop all the mumbo jumbo, get yourself some irons that you can hit and get your handicap down to single figures. Then please stop posting all this garbage or at least take a break.

[ThinkingPlus]

That's the point. No one knows what sweet spot even means except heuristically. All we know is that it is smaller with less MOI. In fact MOI is only useful as a relative measurement currently. One cannot say that a 10% increase in MOI gave a 20% increase in sweet spot area or 30% or whatever. Semi-meaningless except when comparing two clubheads to each other. The meaningful information would be the size and shape of the area on the club face that will generate 95% (pick your favorite number) of peak ball speed.

[Nard_S]

That 95% is centered in an area that is approximately 10mm inside center face. Old school or modern blades, that's where you align your intent, even if that means you set club at address there.

[ThinkingPlus]

I presume you are talking about the location of the CG horizontally across the face (C dimension in the Maltby measurements). Traditional blades tended have the horizontal CG somewhat close to the hosel. That was because hosels had to be longer because the epoxies of the day weren't very good so large surface area was needed to affix club head to shaft as well as pinning in some cases. With the development of modern epoxies hosels can be much shorter. That mass can be redistributed to sole and toe moving the CG away from the hosel and lower. Some modern blades during the last 25 years or so have gone to that design approach. Personally, I don't see any advantage to having the CG close to the hosel. It makes blades more hook biased and easier to shank.

[dpb5031]

I think there's only one true sweet spot and it's very tiny no matter the iron design. I'm no physicist, but I think it's the one spot on the club that if you hit it, will result in no deflection or twisting of the clubface at impact. It's literally the size of a pin head.

I think what's being discussed relative to this discussion is effective hitting area. Theoretically, more forgiving designs broaden the area around the sweet spot so the drop off from pure perfect contact results in less deflection of the clubface and less loss of ball speed.

[MK7Golf21]

Yea and it's pretty crazy people would be arguing with you about playing blueprints. Looks like your a 2 handicap and have x flex shafts in your clubs, obviously have the swing speed and a good player. 4 iron iblade 5-pw blueprint sounds pretty ideal and is a great set.

[nsxguy]

"However, if we are talking about a club that retains ball speed on less than optimum strikes, there is no way the spin profile is going to be linear across the face, which you confirmed, which then leads to that variability in distance control that was the overriding theme of my posts."

Your persistence is admirable.

LOL, so now that you've been "caught", you use the sarcastic "Ya got me" even though you've been "getting" other posters throughout the thread. I'd forgotten that one.

Given YOUR contributions in this thread alone that would seem like pot/kettle. LOL

Nevertheless, since this is yet another blade/CB thread, albeit pretty civil, regardless of your spin, are you suggesting that a "less than optimum" (i.e. mishit) BLADE strike doesn't "lead to variability in distance control" ? After all, the original premise you yourself suggested was a perfect lie in the fairway and a strike above the SS.

[Nard_S]

Agree. But even on modern more centered MB's like the VR Pro II, 2/3 (at a minimum) of effective zone is still inside centerline. The irons in my avatar are as radical to heel side as I've ever hit. They don't see a lot of play due to that. CG closer to axial rotation of shaft, puts more face control in hand. Over cooking draws and fades can be an issue. Flipping becomes deadly.

[ThinkingPlus]

Even the VR Pros aren't all that great assuming I looked up the correct club. They had the CG ~1.15" from the hosel. Ping blueprints have CG about 1.24" from the hosel. Worst I have seen is some really old school 50s or 60s blades in the 0.86" range. Virtually unhittable, but someone was trying. There really isn't a reason these days for the CG to be closer to the hosel than 1.2".

[chisag]

"I know the whole premise of the thread was to instigate a CBs vs MBs debate and using Na’s comments as a device to bash blade users for their ‘stupidity’ but fact of the matter is that there are a lot of insecure golfers out there who lean on their CBs as a crutch to support their lack of natural talent."

... Well that sentence sums up how several feel doesn't it? It is posts like this that made me put Mahonie on ignore with the old format, the kind of WRX member that turns these threads into attacks and arguments. I would have to go back and read all the responses, but my guess is very, very few have insulted MB players. I posted the original Na comments to show what a highly regarded pro thinks of MB's. And remember I own and play MB's! It is an interesting take in a golf equipment folder which is here to spark respectful dialogue. If you ignore the obviously biased comments from those that do the same in every single MB thread there is some pretty good stuff in here. I don't know why some think there will not be differences of opinions and sometimes strong differences of opinions about MB's. Sheesh, read a P790 thread and you get people that hit them on a LM but never played them talking about 30 yd fliers, how worthless the irons are with their ridiculous lofts, soles that can't get thru newly planted wet sod, top lines that are too thick, a head that is too large and of course only good for hacks or weak old players that have lost all their swing speed. None of which apply to me and I love my P790's that I play for score but I love my Z Forged MB's that I play for fun too.

[nsxguy]

"I have a particular ‘hotspot’ on my driver which is slightly high on the face and very slightly towards the toe. I get a real knuckle ball with a strike in that location and usually it works to my advantage with a few extra yards."

 

Yes, maybe terminology is getting in the way a little bit.

As for your driver, I believe research has shown that the typical misses are "high toe" and "low heel". Thinking of the positions and dynamics of the swing I can kinda sorta see that in my mind's eye. I can't for the life of me think of myself hitting low toe or high heel although i expect it's happened on (rare) occasions..

The picture below is a random Cobra F8+ driver found via google search.

The driver I play is the Epic Flash and I've seen that same result from a high toe hit as I expect most here have. I can't say I've seen a "knuckleball" though. A knuckleball doesn't fly very far. I usually see an unusually high flight with a little to quite a bit of draw on that particular strike. YMMV

I've tried to find a picture of it as Cally(?) advertised it but I can't. I believe I saw early on in Cally's advertising - or maybe it was somewhere else. Or maybe it wasn't even Callaway ??? IIRC, the "Flash Face" was intentionally designed to improve strikes in the high toe and low heel areas. The picture of the EF showed the "sweet spot" extending from the low heel up through the center and into the high toe.

Now regardless of advertising or computers used or whatever, not very much is a secret about golf clubs so I expect, while they may not have advertised it, that other manufacturers have addressed this as well.

So "hot spot", elongated "sweet spot", or whatever you might want to call it, it's basically physics, just as the slightly above the SS on the iron strike; Cally just gave it a little help.

 

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

Thanks to CAD I disagree with your analogy. IF MPF says anything it confirms my belief in playability, and that is directly related to sweet spot COG placement and size.

On MOST MB blades the COG sweet spot is approximately dime size, as opposed to a quarter size on most larger GI & SGI heads. In some cases like my 620CB's the head is slightly larger than comparable 620MB iron head, but COG sweet spot is similar as they were designed with the purpose of blending in mind, only COG is closer on the face, as opposed to further back adding to forgiveness. My MacGregor MB Butter knives are short in height, narrow in depth, but a bit long heal to toe so the COG is a bit lower but still approximately dime size. Also, older MB sweet spots were closer to the heal as opposed to contemporary MB's which it's more centered and slightly back of the face.

The size of the sweet spot depends on the overall head size, height of head, sole width and greater circumference to the perimeter; the larger the head the more room for a quarter size sweet spot.

 

[nsxguy]

"The whole make up of my game is predicated around being pin high in regulation. I have lots of mishits with my MBs but usually the strike is not far from the middle of the club, the bigger problem is face angle at impact. Yes, some shots finish short but usually straight and I had the same misses with player’s CBs. The advantage that MBs give me is that the majority of shots finish pin high (although not necessarily on the green) and on my home course that is good as the trouble is mostly long or short."

 

Sorry, but I don't understand this at all.

If your shots are finishing SHORT BUT STRAIGHT, how is face angle an issue ? Were you trying to curve it one way or the other ?

And if your shots are finishing SHORT BUT STRAIGHT, how does a CB, with more forgiveness, hence a bit more distance, NOT help you ?

In point of fact you seem to be are making the CB argument. That bunker or stream, short of a front pin ? Instead of being IN it you're on the green putting birdie. Granted you'd be "cheating" by using the CB but,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Nels55]

As has been mentioned several times the center of gravity of a golf club is a single point in the head. You seem to be defining a term that is called 'sweet spot COG' which you give certain sizes to. This is an interesting idea and it brings to mind some questions: So, what exactly is the definition of 'sweet spot COG' and what parameters are used to determine it's size? I would assume that you have data to back up your definition of the size of this area for different clubs?

Thanks!

[ThinkingPlus]

My post did not have an analogy as far as I know. CG is a single point (this is physics - there should be no dispute here). There is a region about the CG that is very playable where the ball speed varies from 95% (pick your favorite quality metric) to 100% (at the CG) of max (this is the so called sweet spot). The sizes you refer to were determined how? They might constitute a sweet spot, but at what degradation from max? The value we attach to the ball speed degradation as we move farther from the CG is important if we wish to unambiguously compare different CBs, different MBs, or a particular CB to a particular MB. Head size and mass distribution do determine MOI and higher MOIs have larger sweet spots. Once again I don't think anyone disputes that.

[Stinger83]

I don't blame people for being skeptical of any equipment "game changer" claims. I think what they're hearing is "I switched from game improvement irons to blades and got 10 shots better". What I'm actually saying is "I had a set of small player cavity irons that weren't properly fit for me and I switched to a professionally fit set of blades and gained consistency". big difference between those two statements.

[1Mordrid1]

A "blade" can be just as "hot" on the sweet spot as a cavity back. The design of a blade, with the weighting and mass is what makes the sweet spot smaller, but the COR of a well designed blade will still be right at the max allowable. The perimeter weighting and thinner face of a GI club can make the sweet spot larger, but they are still not allowed to pass that max COR allowable by the USGA.

The golf manufacturers have confused and misled people for years with vague descriptions and "clever" marketing......"Hot face", "cup face", "speed slot", and "speed foam" are marketing words. They are BUZZ words to make consumers think that the face is faster than they were before, therefore longer. In reality all they do is possibly give you the max speed you already had, on a larger portion of the face.

 

As for your miss hits on your blades not penalizing you, congrats. You have seemed to accomplish something that not even pros can.

[Pepperturbo]

Nope - no data. I am not a collector of debate data. I am a businessman and only collect information that's important. I just know my club specs and rely on a few people that know much more than I do about club and shaft design. Depends on the period, sweet-spot or COG, even NUT names, depends on who you talk to. I am an older guy so to me the sweet-spot is used to get the best ball control and distance control from an iron. Because many blades and limited CB heads are smaller the approximately dime sized spot is used to hit the ball straight. When I hit the ball with that spot it feels perfectly muted to my hands; fractions or half off the dime towards the heal "helps" to move the ball one way, half off the dime towards to toe "help" moves it the ball the other way, above or below affects the ball accordingly. Though I hit the ball mostly straight, when flighting the ball is desired its simply easier to execute with a blade as opposed to many GI-CB that have quarter sized sweet-spots and surrounded by cavity and perimeter weighting for forgiveness.

The exact measurements I do not know but what determines sweet spot size is head design purpose and overall size. The old fashion Mizuno blades I learned with had the sweet spot closer to the heal and higher and closer on the face which made playability more difficult. Thanks to CAD the sweet spot on contemporary blades is heal to toe centered, lower and further back in the head which makes them more forgiving and playable, much like CB's except less forgiveness on off-center strikes. Like a Vokey wedge.

I have one set of custom fit MacGregor blades that many years back called for me to fly to their corporate office for a day long fitting session. They provided in great detail more choices in fully custom head design than I imagined. I picked out toe, head height, top-line width, sole width, bounce of each club, camber, leading edge, offset and heal to toe blade length which affected COG sweet spot and playability, etc. Each aspect of design was explained in detail to me. It was quite an experience and I still have those irons; two differently designed 2 irons and 3-LW. What a learning experience, anyways that's my thoughts. Have a good day.

[msses]

New to this format. Where is the button so I can insert dancing bananas into a post? TIA

[mahonie]

It goes the distance you would expect.

[nsxguy]

IS there a COR limit on irons ? I thought it was only drivers. I thought I'd heard something about the COR limit coming but never knew it was here.

[nsxguy]

"are you suggesting that a "less than optimum" (i.e. mishit) BLADE strike doesn't "lead to variability in distance control" ?"

So that's a "Yes" then.

Got it. Thanks.

[mahonie]

When I come up short it’s usually because I’ve caught it fat and therefore high on the face...face angle is not always an issue and occasionally I do hit it straight(ish). My CB back up set (MacGregor MT Pro Cs) has the same relative lack of mass high on the clubface and the results are pretty much the same. Now I don’t doubt I would have different results with something like a Ping G series on fat shots but it only affects a small number of shots and not worth the trade off.

[Red4282]

Wrong on so many levels. Your average blade/ traditional iron (not hotfaced) usually has a core around(.76) max cor is (.83) in order to increase cor you need the face to “flex” or “spring”. A solid forged head isnt flexing as much or at all. A hollow or cavity back with a thinner face can now flex or spring.

i NEVER said mishitting blades doesn't penalize you. What i did explain is how a higher strike doesn't create the flier like the hotfaced club does... don't move the goalposts...

[msses]

I hope Na is reading these posts and laughing his buttt off.

[nsxguy]

Well, I did "admire" your persistence. LOL

You're an 11. Usually your short(ish) mishits are fatted shots,,,,,,,,,,,,, OK, if you say so,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[mahonie]

Just realised you play G20s and you wouldn’t know what a fatted shot feels like...that’s fine, each to their own.

[Lobby]

Man, this thread truly sucks.