Going from scratch to a plus

[CardsChamps11]

@Obee Here are your answers
Are you wanting to get to this level yourself? Or are you just curious?Probably more of the former than the latter. I'd certainly love to get closer to that area.
If you are wanting to get to this level yourself:What is your current index? I'm right about 0. I'm not a huge fan of indexes is terms of numbers but in relative skill level. Most indexes are based on if the course is rated fairly, what tees you play, etc.What is your current age? 31How long have you been playing golf? 20 yearsDo you play tournaments now? YesIf so, do you play outside your club in city, county, and regional tournaments? Play some regional and state tournaments. Used to play some national events but havent done that in yearsWhat part of the country do you live in? Im from MissouriDo you know anyone, personally, who has ever won, or finished in the top 10 in a regional tournament in your area? Yes. I assume by regional you are referring to State Ams and tournaments of that caliber.

[b.helts]

Happy to share. Golf at its highest levels requires skill, of course. But more important is experience and confidence and certain unknowable intangibles that are many.

for example, there are players that ALWAYS seem to make that par putt to keep the round going. Or make a birdie after a bogey a seemingly inordinate amount of time, or holes a tricky 8 footer more often than not.

this can’t be taught, it has to be learned. And not everyone can learn it. Or not everyone does learn it. Either way.

but to make a long story short, this discussion, while interesting isn’t about hitting more balls or becoming a better putter. It’s about taking advantage of opportunities and bouncing back from mistakes and friggin grinding for EVERY - SINGLE - SHOT.

[MelloYello]

Golly, dude, if you have advice don't sell it to me. Direct it at the OP in the form of useful information.

I'm saying real progress requires real goals which brings with it real pressure. Nobody needs to hear you try and debate that. If you want to say something, say it to the OP in a useful way.

And spare me the eastern mysticism.

[MelloYello]

So let me ask an obvious question, did these middle-aged guys with full-time jobs and families get better as they aged or were they elite players in their youth who merely remained competent players as they got older? The latter is pretty common. We see that all the time across all sorts of hobbies.
I would assume the vast majority of them were college-level players in their prime. How else would they have gotten their abilities? They had to hone their craft at some point along the line, right? I have a hard time believing that some 40 year-old dude with a wife, kids and a (real) job is going to see his handicap get better over time. Typically that doesn't happen (for obvious reasons). I mean, let's be fair. Usually guys have to at least be kid-less to maintain something of a scratch handicap, LOL.
Anyhow, whatever secrets those guys have need to be shared with the rest of us!
I ask in a serious way here @Obee. I spent my teenage years shredding guitar so yeah, I can still totally do that 100% at 34. It's not crazy to see a skill remain intact with just a little bit of maintenance. That's not impressive. And no, I don't make any use of that skill, LOL. One can easily maintain something on the side. I'm not impressed by that. But someone who developed a skill like that late in life? Now, that is a unique story!
In my experience, there's always a period somewhere in the story where the guy puts in the work like a fiend. Whether that's at 16 years old or not, there has to be a period wherein someone's basically obsessive about it if they want to get really proficient. If the OP wants to do that at 31 I think it's probably going to take serious effort and grinding. I doubt you take issue with that statement. Being good ain't easy.
I applaud him for asking. I'm very curious what some of the top players here say. My guess is that anyone who gets to + territory though probably came from a lifetime around the game and I'll be honest, I think that's hard to teach. There comes a point where I think you really just need to have started when you were young (i.e. by ~15).

[Ray Jackson]

I'm a +2 handicap (not a +3 so decide whether this advice is relevant), you can look me up Ray Jackson, Texas

I'm 47, 5'10 and 155lbs, have an 11yr old who's a 6 handicap from the whites and a full time job, although thats different right now with Covid and working from home.

I play at least 3x a week and hit balls another 2x and some putting practice for an hour a week.

When i play i generally track the following on a scorecard -

Fairways or if missed Left or Right

Greens hit or if missed, left/right/long/short

GIR, proximity to hole

100yds and in up and down or not

Number of putts - I tend to have less than 30 putts most rounds.

I virtually never miss a shot left, whether thats an iron or driver. If i do its because of indecision and stop hips rotating at impact.

Whats led to really low scores is making a lot more birdies, but i also now make more bogeys.

My iron game from 150yds and in is good, I am not the longest off the tee but do get it out there 280

Putting is a strength, making more than you'd expect from 10 to 20ft. Wedge game between 60 to 100 yards has really improved in last 3 months due to more practice there.

Weakness is long irons, miss is always low and right.

Low round this year is 65, which was one bogey and 8 birdies.

I dont drink and i'm pretty serious/focused on the course no matter what round it is.

[hoselpalooza]

mello, lighten up, bud. this is a public forum. if you can't take criticism or don't want to debate your opinions, don't share them in public. that's not how this thing works. you should send OP a PM if you don't want others' feedback. ;)@CardsChamps11, if you determine improving your mental game will help you get into plus territory i'd be wary of some of the things mello said. i'm not an expert so you should take what i say with a grain of salt, too. but my opinions are based on more than just conversations with a few former collegiate athletes who used to be in plus territory. i've heard numerous commentators mention mindfulness/detachment, listened to player interviews where this is discussed, read golf (and other) psychology books, and so forth. :)
here's one gem from the first link at the bottom:Tiger Woods was learning the mental game at a very young age.... and he was taught skills to become emotionally detached in pressure situations. We are more likely to achieve our goals if we can learn to be unaffected if we do not reach them.anyway. while i agree there's merit to setting measurable and achievable goals -- after all, that which is measured, improves -- i vehemently disagree about purposely getting yourself emotionally invested in the outcomes of your efforts -- e.g. letting a bad round "ruin [your] day" because "it needs to mean that much to you." that's bad advice and should be avoided.
instead, you should practice mindfulness -- or detach yourself from the outcome ahead of time -- as much as you possibly can. and learn to quickly deal with and let go of any negative emotions you experience as a result of failure. it's not "eastern mysticism" -- it's a practice people from all walks of life use to increase success and happiness, from the boardroom to the upper echelons of sports and everything in between.
cards, if you're interested i encourage you to look into it on your own. below are a few resources you may find useful as an introduction if you're not already familiar:
PLAY GOLF UNDER PRESSURE: HOW TO COPE IN PRESSURE SITUATIONS? https://golfstateofmind.com/golf-pressure/overview of what detachment is: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/emotional-fitness/201811/how-best-use-detachmentincludes info about detachment and getting into the zone, though also contains info about golf psychiatry: http://drlardon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Sports_Psychiatrist_and_Golf.pdfthese are just the tip of the iceberg/top of google search results. getting into the metal aspect of golf is like going down a rabbit hole with both good info and garbage. and what's good or garbage often depends on personal opinion, just like feels in the golf swing.
good luck!

[Obee]

Most of the players I know who are in that +1 to +4 tournament-tested range in their 30's, 40's, or 50's were (at least somewhat) serious college players or (usually short-time) pros who got their amateur status back. But not all.

Several stories of guys who started late (20 to 26 years old) and who just really took to the game and fell in love and, yes, completely dedicated themselves to becoming the best they could be, one way or another. Definitely sacrifice is required when you have a job and family.

One guy, in particular has a full-time job. Didn't play college or professionally, made himself a darn good golfer in his early 40's, and then blossomed into an elite player in his late 40's and 50's. The guy made it to the semi-finals of the U.S. Mid-Am in back-to-back years when he was in his 50's. That's some good golf.

Another guy started at 26 and has a full-time job and a family with two kids. He qualified for and made the cut at the U.S. Senior Open in back to back years.

[juststeve]

It's a lot easier to maintain a good golf game than it is to get good in the first place. In my experience getting good depends on a lot of sustained effort over a significant period of time. Something very hard for the part time golfer with a family and a job. Once a high level is achieved it can be maintained with relatively little play and practice.

Steve

[rich_s2]

love this, thank you for taking the time to share that

[TerpFangolfer]

agree, esp with your 2nd paragraph. I just yesterday played with a guy who is always in contention in the State Am/Mid-Am...and he's getting close to Sr age (bad for me).

I entered the Mid-Am only because it was the course I grew up playing - my grandparents were members back in the 70s-80s. I knew I didn't have the game with the "young bucks" to compete...but it was great to watch him.

He 4-putted the 7th hole for double- and at that time was already 2 over. Just thought how if that was me I probably would have been done for.

Instead he parred in the front 9 (2 tough holes), and then birdied 3 of 4 to start the back and shot 3 under on back. He didn't win...but he went from heading towards a 30th place finish - to back in the top 10.

[MonteScheinblum]

Very true.....consistency becomes the issue.

[ferrispgm]

Getting there is certainly a pain especially when you work during the week....I find the toughest thing is staying sharp mentally. The swing, more or less, is there or at worst good enough to slap it around an keep it respectable....but unless you play or practice a decent amount...it's tough some days to have the confidence to trust the swing/shot...For example...on the rare occasion i play 3 or 4 days in a row...by day 3 or 4...i can stand up on a dogleg left over water and hit driver down there with a little draw....no hesitation.....on my once per week round.....Unless i'm flushing it all day i'm aiming more right and trying not to bail out/block it too much lol.

[TheCityGame]

One point of view. . .

We had out club championship last weekend. The way the brackets worked out after the stroke play placement round, my quarterfinal was me (1.1) playing a 1.5 and the other match-up in our foursome was a REAL +3/+3.5 (young guy, D1 college, etc) playing a real +2.

Anyway, I played really well -- a slightly plus differential (72 on a CR 73) in the quarters and a slightly negative differential in the semis (against the +3.5).

I know this isn't always the case, but the FIRST THING you'd notice if you watched the foursome was the difference in distance between the plus guys and me and the 1.5. We have 3 par 5's (par par par for me) and those two made 5 birdies and one par (and the par was from over the green in 2). They outdrive me every hole where we hit driver. They hit 5 wood the same distance I hit driver on holes you need to be careful. I hit driver everywhere.

I had 3 bogeys in the quarters and they were on 3 of 4 of our longest par 4's (8 iron, hybrid, 4 iron approach shots). One of them played those holes even. One played them in -2. I hit every drive in play all day and my long irons were on point, but it's SO TOUGH to have a 5 iron into a green when they have an 8 iron. It doesn't make as much of a difference when I have 100 in and they have 70. Off the tee, if we both stone one, I'm probably 265 and they're 285 (the +3.5) and 300 (yes, 300). So our 440 into-the-wind, or our 460 par 4 are just different for these guys. That zone is the crossover from "I really need to manage this long shot in to the green" to "I'm knocking down the flag.")

The +3.5 is a great putter. I'd put my chipping up against him. I'd put my long putting up against him. It FEELS like he makes 50% of his putts from 8-15 feet. I'm sure that's an exaggeration but he regularly makes putts from outside other people. Very tough to play when you put one inside him and he makes. He does this all the time.

Oh, and he hits greens (In the quarters he hit 16 greens; in the semi, he closed me out 5&3. He'd hit 14/15 greens at that point and was 4 under). In part because he's long but also he's very straight. We played 7 par 3's together with 3 in the 200-range and he hit every one of them, a few at like 15 feet.

So, basically, I went out and played scratch golf for 33 holes. . .and this guy hits it further than I do. He putts better than I do. And he hits it straighter than I do. So, I don't know what to say to the OP. Good luck, I guess? Get longer off the tee while simultaneously getting better at everything?

The ONLY thing I'd say about his game is that he didn't get up and down any of the three times he missed a green. But, he usually does.

 

 

[Ray Jackson]

Happy to share my golf path over the last 5-10 yrs and the things i've done well and would do differently via PM if it helps anyone.

[Krt22]

I think that really depends on the swing. Some require a lot more maintenance than others

[Obee]

So do you have any success when you play state level all-age amateur events? How about mid-am events? In order to improve to the level where you can compete with the best in your area in your age group, you need to start with brutal self-honesty, which should lead to a personal golf "inventory."

Where are you losing strokes compared to your elite regional peers. When you play with the best in your area, where do they outshine you?

Figure out what those areas are and improve them. I finally "broke through" and had a nice senior win in SoCal by doing two things:

I acknowledged that I'm very short for a competitive player. That acknowledgement allowed me to play the right shot more often than I previously had.I conquered by ridiculous desire to play for respect and now play purely because I absolutely love the innate challenge of the game of golf. I would play it if no one were around, for certainI fixed my crappy putting and dropped 2 to 2.5 putts per round, because I finally got fed up with my poor puttingYour inventory is probably totally different. But you need to take one for sure if you want to progress.

Much more to say, of course.

 

[nitram]

Absolute solid gold Mello. This is my story almost word for word. I've been as low as +4.4 and am now (years later) a -0.6. Some of that has to do with age but more importantly, it has to do with time and commitment to practice. I used to spend at least 6 hours a day, every day practicing and playing. Now I'll warm up 15-20 minutes, walk 18 in about 3 hours, and I'm gone.

[Obee]

Hey there, Nitram. :-)

Did you have any tournament success back when you were a +3 to +4? What region of the country were you in back then?

[Barfolomew]

^^^^ true..... I think many golfers have an identity crisis. Have you ever felt your not as good as the players in your group or that you're game is better then others in the group. I think we identify with a certain level and that can help or hurt us but we limit ourselves to how we see ourselves, if we're not performing we can tell ourselves were playin like a chop and let's snap to instantly or you're playin way better and feels like your on the high wire wating for things to screw up to bring you back down to normal.

 

I'm a scratch but get injured ever few months, currently its the lower right back. Then I can't play or practice with my friends, boo hoo lol! But my score gets worse BUT I never Identify with being a guy who shot 8 over etc and know when I feel better it'll be scratch again. But the point is how powerful do you identify with how good you are or if you're mentally blocking yourself to getting better....... when you are able to knock a couple strokes off your game can you see yourself as a +4 player or are you still on the high wire... you can BS others but deep down you can't BS yourself.

 

P.S. This is the best thread on WRX right now..... some of you might know I wanted to start a sub forum for better players to chop it up (see what I did there) and encourage more threads like this.... maybe one day lol

[juststeve]

My full swing remains consistent after a lay off of a month or two. I customarily put the clubs up from just after Thanksgiving until weather turns nice in February or March. What has always become inconsistent is shots requiring touch, partial wedges, lag putts and the like. It takes a bit of play and practice to get the feel back.

 

Steve

[CardsChamps11]

I think you’ve hit on something insightful here and it’s the idea of comfort zones. We all have our comfort zone where we are “happy” with our play. When we step on the tee we expect to shoot a certain score. If we’re above that score we can start to press and do what we can to get back to that comfort zone. If you’re below, you may relax or get anxious. The point is mentally you could be limiting yourself.

[nitram]

Success, not really. I never competed in any USGA sanctioned events, only local tourneys, men's league, member guests, and money games. I won two or three and donated to substantially more. As a construction manager I was playing mainly in the south from LA. to GA. and a few games in FL. Also WV, PA, and OH when I was working up there.

Long story short Obee, I started golf at 16. I was "drafted" by my baseball coach to play golf to fill out a 4-man team. I was taught by an old tour caddie who would've been a tour player had he not been a full blooded Native American. He taught me what I believe is the right way to play by being an accurate driver of the ball, accurate iron player, good putter, and a better than average short game, especially chipping. I wasn't especially gifted with athletic talent besides being able to run (and that's not a golf skill LOL) but I worked my butt off to become a solid high to mid 70's player in a year and a half.

After graduation I went to the USMC and was stationed at Camp Pendleton. I had a good gig and was able to loop on the weekends around San Diego to include Torrey. I was bagging for cash and made more in a weekend than I did in a month for Uncle Sam. I also noticed those Cali boys were playing a different game than I and I began to try what they were doing and FAILED. After around 3-4 years I was on the rifle team and had to give up golf and it was probably a good thing because by the time I stopped playing, I was lucky to break 90 do to bad driving and crappy ball striking. The short game can only save so many strokes.

A few years later I was back home as a state trooper and beginning a family so I was lucky if the clubs left the closet once or twice a year. After a little more than a decade of wearing a badge, I changed careers. This new career involved playing golf with clients and co-workers. After shooting 93 at a benefit tournament on a 5800 yard setup I went to the man who originally taught me the game and said "fix me". After re-learning how to grip the club, a week of hitting 500-600 balls a day, "his way", making 100 3-foot putts before I could move to 4, 5, and 6, and having to chip/pitch 4/5 into a 5 ft circle from anywhere before we could go play a round, walking 18. I could decently strike the ball and the short game was as good as ever. After a week or so of this he and I went out and I shot an 81 with 34 putts. He and I played a few more rounds where I stayed between 75 and 80 and he told me the rest was up to me. So with that I was on my way.

I started traveling around the country for work and began to play as often as I could, everywhere I went. I'd be at the office by 4:00am and had my schedule arranged where I could usually be at the golf course by 2:00 and would stay until dark practicing and/or playing. I played at muni's, resort courses, and private country clubs and for a solid 10-12 years I had a club in my hand every day I wasn't tied up with work or on a plane. If I was tied up in the office I'd putt on my putting green and again run 100 3, 4, 5, and 6 footers. Eventually I put it all together and began to play consistently well and moved my handicap from a -3 to a +0.5. In that same 10-12 years I was able to keep a plus index for almost 10 years with the lowest being a +4.4. I was able to tie 4 course records and shot 61 on four occasions in tourney play but never threatened 59 LOL. I usually hung around a +2.5 to +3 until a couple years ago when I decided to back off a by quite a bit.

I still play close to 200 rounds per year and walk most of those, I just don't practice 1/4 as much as I used to. I've grown tired of hurting. I'm still around scratch because I keep it in the fairway, get up and down more than I don't, and make most putts inside 6 feet. I don't make as many birdies as I used to but don't post many large numbers either. I have two rounds in the 60's this year and 6 north of 83 to include a 90 at Bluejack National.

It's been a struggle to accept the decline in my game and "old man golf" has definitely set-in. I could move up a tee box and that day is coming, I'm just not ready yet. I haven't gone down without a fight though. I still work on putting, it's just now I make 20 in a row instead of 100, I still hit a shagger full of pitches and chips daily and I'll still go to the range and work something out if necessary. And I still try and complete 18 in under 3 hours walking and playing at 6800 yards.

I don't know if this answers what you wanted ol buddy but that's pretty well my story. Thanks for asking.

 

 

 

 

 

[Obee]

@nitram Dude. Great story. Thanks for sharing. How old are you now?
I have also never done anything in USGA events. Narrowly missed qualifying several times for the US Mid-Am. Other than that, nothing. I have probably only tried 8 or 9 times ever, though.
But California is a completely different animal. Tournaments are so deep here. There are 40 million people here, for crying out loud. LOL
And the guys who make it to match play at the USGA events are serious players. Definitely a level better than I am. Of all the guys that I know who have/had made it deep into match play, especially (Corby Segal, Tim Hogarth, Tyler Crawford, Dan Sullivan, et al.), they are just better. I can beat them and I have beaten most/all of them in 36/54 hole tourneys, but they are just better than I am.
Love this game. :-)

[nitram]

I love it as well and it has been so beneficial for me in my life. I would not be as successful nor met some of the best people on this earth without golf.

I’m 57 with bad knees, RA, and an affinity for FOOD and accompanying beverage. 2 years ago I weighed more than I ever have, got PO’d at myself and started working towards getting healthy and my fat a$$ in shape. I lost 50 lbs through exercise (including walking & carrying 18) and eating better and less. My wife and sons call it my “ nutritional intervention”.

 

 

[br61]

You're fine in my book. I've been in regular touch with Sellin.

I've done really well in many tournaments in the past but no one here probably cares about it. Too much negativity!

[bortass]

Great thread to read. I’ll never get to that level of play but it’s good to be able to see the experiences and discussion shared here. It provides perspective.

[CardsChamps11]

We'd love to hear about it. Helps inspire others

[ryan983]

My journey has been roughly 6 years in the making. Took about 10 years off after college playing minimally.

Technically was a +1 when I started taking lessons 6 years ago but I was not a tournament plus 1. And my anti handicap was probably a 6 if I had to guess. as of last revision, I’m a +4.1 and probably a plus 2-3 tournament handicap.

for me it’s been all about improving mechanics in the full swing and short game. Gaining 30-40 yards and being able to practice all I want with no pain has lead to more confidence and some decent tournament results. No wins...yet But a few second place finishes and quite a few top 5, 10, etc.

If you want to get to deeper plus, you have to hit it better. Period. You can’t have glaring weakness in any part of your game but to compete on tougher courses in tournament conditions, improve your swing. It’s easier to improve the mental game when you are confident in your mechanics.

I know some in this thread will insist you don’t need a coach/just improve your short game/know your swing/improve your preshot routine...I don’t totally disagree but I simply had to improve my mechanics. My old move was too hard on my body and I wasn’t long enough to compete at 6800 yards or longer.

[Obee]

negativity? This is nothin'!! :-)

Would love to hear your journey!

[br61]

Ha, for starters, my partner and I just won Missouri Par 3 Championships this past weekend in Seniors Division.

We played at Big Cedar's Mountain Top and Top of Rock courses. Those are really beautiful courses and Mountain Top is one of the most fun courses I have played on, in excellent condition. I highly recommend anyone visiting the area to play Mountain Top course and other excellent courses at Big Cedar. Champions Tour will visit there next week for back to back tournaments.