Matthew Fitzpatrick whines about BDC...

[drbonesvt]

9 hours ago, mahonie said:

...and that’s the point where the OEMs realise that they are only selling drivers, wedges and putters, 50% of their market has disappeared and they start petitioning the PGA Tour to please stop the distance arms race.

Ave golfer will still need 5,6,7 irons when they hit their ave driver 225 yd dribbler into the rough and have 160 into the hole on a  385 yd par 4

[clevited]

4 hours ago, Bubb said:

Because the most recent course built in my area (Pfau) is 7908 yards long. That did not need to happen and you can imagine the extra resources and costs associated with longer and longer courses. This 7900 yard course will never host the PGA tour pros, but the effects of ever increasing distance has hit home nonetheless.

These architects that feel the need for these crazy long courses are either doing it for the extra houses they can put on it for extra cash, or because they are stupidly thinking that longer is better or necessary to be an elite club.  The latter is a caused by an echo chamber of stupidity among architects that has nothing to do with the length of professional players.  It is a perceived need so that these places can toot their horn about how OMG long they are.  In reality, they will just have unused set of back tee's for the life of the course as hardly anyone will have the length to use them.  Design courses better and make them more interesting. There are plenty of short courses that are plenty challenging, even to tour players. 

 

Sorry for the rant about this particular subject, but it really irks me how often the "need" for longer courses yada yada always comes up.  Its a farce, plain and simple.  

[mahonie]

1 hour ago, drbonesvt said:

Ave golfer will still need 5,6,7 irons when they hit their ave driver 225 yd dribbler into the rough and have 160 into the hole on a  385 yd par 4

That’s still only a half set of clubs and sorta makes my point. 5, 6 and 7 irons are the least used clubs in my bag and I can go several rounds without using my 3-wood and 3-hybrid. 

[vtpachyderm]

6 hours ago, Bubb said:

Because the most recent course built in my area (Pfau) is 7908 yards long. That did not need to happen and you can imagine the extra resources and costs associated with longer and longer courses. This 7900 yard course will never host the PGA tour pros, but the effects of ever increasing distance has hit home nonetheless.

 

But they do have the option to play shorter tees don't they? They've just given people the option to play a super long course if players feel they've got the length or inkling to do so. If it's the one at IU (I googled  it up) and I assume is used to host NCAA golf, then they've pretty much catered to those that would like to make a career playing the game. Either way, judging by the slope rating, they have 6 different tee boxes with ratings and distances that cater to everyone, and if they had the budget and can make it sustainable, more power to them.

 

But ultimately, they've made a choice to do this and it is up to the consumer to justify the choice or not. If they price themselves out due to it being too difficult, then they'll probably make some adjustments, but right now they're catering to the male golf ego, and I suspect they'll do pretty well 😂.

 

At my home course (Byneset golf in Trondheim Norway - the youtuber is a Norwegian dude who I have no idea who he is, but turn on the subtitles and you get a good idea of the course), we have 3 sets of tee markers and each one of them makes the course play completely differently from each other. The course hosted a European tour challenge event at one point (Koepka played), and they just outdrove the course - it was a sight to behold. But, they've got enough thick grass and going off line usually results in a lost ball, so it keeps us amateurs honest. They tried to make it harder at one point by narrowing the fairways, but the membership complained that it was too hard (not all are 300+ yard WRX'ers) so it is the way it is now which is a fair and more than enough of a challenge.

 

So, I honestly believe that we hold a lot more say into how our home courses are setup than the pros on the PGA.

[bladehunter]

6 hours ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

If you admit scale matters then all this really is is you wanting everyone to like what you like.  I have no idea why you would have any issues with BDC hitting it 330 yards and winning a US Open and making others try to get as good as he is.  I don't care about putting.  Ben Hogan famously said putting isn't golf, and that you should end the hold by playing closest to the stick once on the green.  I think Hogan would enjoy the dominance of the long ball in today's game just like some of us do.  Its like cars.  Cars are stilled called cars now, they've  just evolved.  Same with golf.

 

I realize you're hedging all your posts, and I appreciate that, but we're approaching "damn long hitters get off my lawn" territory.

Lol. But isn’t that exactly what you’re saying?  Everybody like what I like !  Why is it crazy talk one way and “ progress”  the other way , therefore just and good when you say it ?   All it is , is opposing viewpoints.  And there’s nothing wrong with that.  

Edited October 13, 2020 by bladehunter

[bladehunter]

5 hours ago, clevited said:

These architects that feel the need for these crazy long courses are either doing it for the extra houses they can put on it for extra cash, or because they are stupidly thinking that longer is better or necessary to be an elite club.  The latter is a caused by an echo chamber of stupidity among architects that has nothing to do with the length of professional players.  It is a perceived need so that these places can toot their horn about how OMG long they are.  In reality, they will just have unused set of back tee's for the life of the course as hardly anyone will have the length to use them.  Design courses better and make them more interesting. There are plenty of short courses that are plenty challenging, even to tour players. 

 

Sorry for the rant about this particular subject, but it really irks me how often the "need" for longer courses yada yada always comes up.  Its a farce, plain and simple.  

I’m not sure how this thread got off on that. One poster ( not me ) suggested course setup as a way to hold drivers honest , and somehow those replies went to long courses.    
I think folks are misunderstanding the idea of scale.  Nobody wants to see longer courses to balance that scale out.  ( pardon the double entendres) . Longer courses are not the answer.  

[vtpachyderm]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

I’m not sure how this thread got off on that. One poster ( not me ) suggested course setup as a way to hold drivers honest , and somehow those replies went to long courses.    
I think folks are misunderstanding the idea of scale.  Nobody wants to see longer courses to balance that scale out.  ( pardon the double entendres) . Longer courses are not the answer.  

I guess the question is if we actually need an answer?  Are we looking for an answer because that's not how we grew up playing the game or because we can't do what BDC does?

[bladehunter]

5 minutes ago, vtpachyderm said:

I guess the question is if we actually need an answer?  Are we looking for an answer because that's not how we grew up playing the game or because we can't do what BDC does?

Good point.  I don’t know if we NEED an answer or not.  
 

but I will say that since I started playing this game in 2014 it can’t really be said that I’m “ it’s not how I grew up playing “.  It actually is how I grew up playing.  And I think that the fact that I do hit it much longer than the intended scale on local courses is exactly why I have the opinion I do.  

[pinestreetgolf]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Lol. But isn’t that exactly what you’re saying?  Everybody like what I like !  Why is it crazy talk one way and “ progress”  the other way , therefore just and good when you say it ?   All it is , is opposing viewpoints.  And there’s nothing wrong with that.  

 

One requires enormous and drastic change to the rules and equipment (your way) and one does not (my way). Those two things are not created equal.

 

In this thread alone you've got from pseudo-outraged to slippery-slope fallacy to calling people who hit it a long way "not golf" to now the old reliable "well, that's just your opinion, man".

 

Your like a guy who loves back-to-the-basket post hook shots trying to watch today's NBA.

[jmck]

12 minutes ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

One requires enormous and drastic change to the rules and equipment (your way) and one does not (my way). Those two things are not created equal.

 

In this thread alone you've got from pseudo-outraged to slippery-slope fallacy to calling people who hit it a long way "not golf" to now the old reliable "well, that's just your opinion, man".

 

Your like a guy who loves back-to-the-basket post hook shots trying to watch today's NBA.

Huh?  Enormous and drastic change?  Which one is that again?

 

The 'let's take something that weights 1.62 oz. and reduce the distance it flies by 10 or 20%' version?

 

Or 'let's take something that covers 200+ acres and increase its size by 10 or 20%' version?  Your solution, in your own words: "Just build new courses."

 

Reasonable people can disagree over whether or not there's a problem here that needs solving.  But if there is a problem here that needs solving....BY FAR the easiest solution is rolling back the ball. 

[bladehunter]

40 minutes ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

One requires enormous and drastic change to the rules and equipment (your way) and one does not (my way). Those two things are not created equal.

 

In this thread alone you've got from pseudo-outraged to slippery-slope fallacy to calling people who hit it a long way "not golf" to now the old reliable "well, that's just your opinion, man".

 

Your like a guy who loves back-to-the-basket post hook shots trying to watch today's NBA.

Wel. I do love back to the basket post up hooks or fade aways.  Lol 

 

but.  Drastic changes ?  Do tell.  I haven’t said a word about drastic changes.  

[Soloman1]

Hey, it doesn't matter what anyone says anymore. It's what I think you really meant, or I heard in my head after I reached my nine second attention span limit while reading.

 

Oh, and I wasn't paying attention. Could you guys start over?

[bladehunter]

2 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

Hey, it doesn't matter what anyone says anymore. It's what I think you really meant, or I heard in my head after I reached my nine second attention span limit while reading.

 

Oh, and I wasn't paying attention. Could you guys start over?

I’m sure we will at some point.  After all.  This is a thread about what one dude said about another dude and how he goes about hitting a ball with a stick as compared to how he prefers to strike a ball with a stick.  
 

not exactly deep water we’re treading here.   

[clevited]

1 hour ago, jmck said:

Huh?  Enormous and drastic change?  Which one is that again?

 

The 'let's take something that weights 1.62 oz. and reduce the distance it flies by 10 or 20%' version?

 

Or 'let's take something that covers 200+ acres and increase its size by 10 or 20%' version?  Your solution, in your own words: "Just build new courses."

 

Reasonable people can disagree over whether or not there's a problem here that needs solving.  But if there is a problem here that needs solving....BY FAR the easiest solution is rolling back the ball. 

Rolling back a ball or equipment in general effects ALL golfers and negatively.  These exclusive golf courses that already charge huge fees to play or have millionaire members have the money to do what they please.  I would say that if golf courses care about their par rating, or don't like the way elite players play their courses, then they can do what they please even though I think it is dumb that they even bother trying to do anything (like Augusta).  Leave the golfer population alone, tweak the courses on the pro tour if so desired.  

[drbonesvt]

8 hours ago, mahonie said:

That’s still only a half set of clubs and sorta makes my point. 5, 6 and 7 irons are the least used clubs in my bag and I can go several rounds without using my 3-wood and 3-hybrid. 

“Drivers wedges and putters “ Unless hyperbole was your goal

[oikos1]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Wel. I do love back to the basket post up hooks or fade aways.  Lol 

 

but.  Drastic changes ?  Do tell.  I haven’t said a word about drastic changes.  

Yes sir!

 

 

 

(ok, I admit it, my nine seconds have passed) 😁

[bladehunter]

43 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Yes sir!

 

 

 

(ok, I admit it, my nine seconds have passed) 😁

You had to mention Larry Legend.  What I wouldn’t give to have him , Kareem , magic , MJ and the entire pistons crime Syndicate on the court weekly to watch !   

[Nard_S]

28 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

You had to mention Larry Legend.  What I wouldn’t give to have him , Kareem , magic , MJ and the entire pistons crime Syndicate on the court weekly to watch !   

Those guys were playing a different game because they were playing under different rules. The same could be said of golfers then & now. Except it's the gear and the agronomy instead of rules.

 

I could go back to both in a heart beat.

[Dr. Block]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

You had to mention Larry Legend.  What I wouldn’t give to have him , Kareem , magic , MJ and the entire pistons crime Syndicate on the court weekly to watch !   

Amen Brother.  That was entertaining basketball.  The best player in the NBA wasn't driving to the hoop then whining because he didn't get a foul call, he was laying in a heap on the hardwood between the blocks.   At least I can still see and play basketball like that at my local LA Fitness.

[mahonie]

2 hours ago, drbonesvt said:

“Drivers wedges and putters “ Unless hyperbole was your goal

My point was the OEMs will start pushing back when they can’t sell as much equipment because there won’t be the demand (I can see the ludicrous price of drivers, wedges and putters getting even higher)...or people get so bored by the one-dimensional nature of the game that they walk away

[Golfwatchr]

I still hes rude to yell at photographers why cant he be gracious if hes so proud?

[bladehunter]

4 hours ago, mahonie said:

My point was the OEMs will start pushing back when they can’t sell as much equipment because there won’t be the demand (I can see the ludicrous price of drivers, wedges and putters getting even higher)...or people get so bored by the one-dimensional nature of the game that they walk away

That’s why i gripe. If I thought it was sustainable I wouldn’t care.  
 

I see the mass exodus coming much like baseball and basketball.  
 

remember. Once everyone is exceptional.  Nobody is exceptional.  

[mahonie]

38 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

That’s why i gripe. If I thought it was sustainable I wouldn’t care.  
 

I see the mass exodus coming much like baseball and basketball.  
 

remember. Once everyone is exceptional.  Nobody is exceptional.  

I was channel hopping on Saturday night and fell upon the Shriners. I saw 5 shots in a row without an ad (Not even the standard ‘The PGA Tour brought to you by Titleist’) so it must’ve been some kind of record. However, those 5 shots were all wedges into greens with the closest about 20’. I thought it was a highlights reel for a second, then realised it was ‘real time.’ It’s not as if the approach shots were close and ‘exciting,’ nothing was dancing round the pin. 

As an aside, just watching Josh Antmann Golf Vodcast on Sky. They’re discussing this exact topic. Jamie Spence called BDC and I quote: ‘A long drive champ who can chip and putt.’ I will stress that his tongue was firmly in his cheek. I think the consensus from the guys on the show is that BCD is fast-tracking a rollback.

[pinhigh27]

18 hours ago, clevited said:

These architects that feel the need for these crazy long courses are either doing it for the extra houses they can put on it for extra cash, or because they are stupidly thinking that longer is better or necessary to be an elite club.  The latter is a caused by an echo chamber of stupidity among architects that has nothing to do with the length of professional players.  It is a perceived need so that these places can toot their horn about how OMG long they are.  In reality, they will just have unused set of back tee's for the life of the course as hardly anyone will have the length to use them.  Design courses better and make them more interesting. There are plenty of short courses that are plenty challenging, even to tour players. 

 

Sorry for the rant about this particular subject, but it really irks me how often the "need" for longer courses yada yada always comes up.  Its a farce, plain and simple.  

The course was made like that so the division 1 college team that plays out of there had flexibility to play what tees they wanted to recreate situations they would face in upcoming tournaments. But don't let that get in the way of your drivel.

 

No one has to play from 7900, nor will they likely. 

 

A course can be both long and interesting. I don't know how you all lose your minds because there's a set of tees back there that 99.9999999% of people won't even think about playing. So if its an open field its ok, but put two markers there and it's a crappy course with no strategy. Such a weak argument. 

[pinhigh27]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

That’s why i gripe. If I thought it was sustainable I wouldn’t care.  
 

I see the mass exodus coming much like baseball and basketball.  
 

remember. Once everyone is exceptional.  Nobody is exceptional.  

You think there is going to be a mass exodus from golf because it is too easy and people hit the ball too far?

 

There was a mass exodus from baseball and basketball because they're too easy?

 

What are you talking about 

[bladehunter]

15 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

You think there is going to be a mass exodus from golf because it is too easy and people hit the ball too far?

 

There was a mass exodus from baseball and basketball because they're too easy?

 

What are you talking about 

Viewers of pro golf.   Once long drive parity is a reality ( next 5-10 years ?) people will lose interest I predict and stop watching once it’s “ normalized “.   Much like juiced baseball players hitting monster home  runs didn’t hold the attention of the fans , and then they added instant replay and finished killing that game.   Basketball leaned to 7 ft point guards  and a slam dunk - 3 point contest every night and now the ratings drop every season.  Of course it’s an opinion.  But it’s no more crazy than the opposite.  
 

nba ratings.   Checkout 1998 finals then scroll up to now.  Some off years up and down. Then a steady death stroke last 7/8 years.  People don’t like this brand basketball.     I’m simply saying golf needs to consider all things. Not just $ right now.  
 

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-finals-ratings-viewership-history/

Edited October 14, 2020 by bladehunter

[bladehunter]

19 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

You think there is going to be a mass exodus from golf because it is too easy and people hit the ball too far?

 

There was a mass exodus from baseball and basketball because they're too easy?

 

What are you talking about 

Now see the golf ratings. 
 

 

 

look pre tiger , viewers then were more than now.  The tiger effect is obvious and can’t be really counted.  But tv viewership is down now vs pre tiger.  Maybe that means golf needs more Brysons ??? Or.  Maybe it means golf fans aren’t excited by Rory - champ and Bryson.... more people tuned in to watch Faldo and Langer than today’s guys.  Think about that.  
 

 

 

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/major-golf-ratings-historical-masters-us-open-british-pga-championship-tiger-woods/

[pinhigh27]

Or maybe people just aren’t into golf and it has nothing to do with the style. I really don’t think average person gives any thought to the common strategy of the game in reference to their interest. 
 

Putting 100 Corey pavins out there isn’t going to make golf interesting 

 

just a bunch of old guys jealous they can’t hit it far 

[Shilgy]

27 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Viewers of pro golf.   Once long drive parity is a reality ( next 5-10 years ?) people will lose interest I predict and stop watching once it’s “ normalized “.   Much like juiced baseball players hitting monster home  runs didn’t hold the attention of the fans , and then they added instant replay and finished killing that game.   Basketball leaned to 7 ft point guards  and a slam dunk - 3 point contest every night and now the ratings drop every season.  Of course it’s an opinion.  But it’s no more crazy than the opposite.  
 

nba ratings.   Checkout 1998 finals then scroll up to now.  Some off years up and down. Then a steady death stroke last 7/8 years.  People don’t like this brand basketball.     I’m simply saying golf needs to consider all things. Not just $ right now.  
 

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-finals-ratings-viewership-history/

I am not saying viewership is not down. But what has an increase from 20 or more years ago? There are way too many options available for folks to watch. You can read stats to say about anything you want.

[Nard_S]

Guess what folks, "driver + wedge" golf is just boring as f.u.c.k. I don't care to see it at Augusta nor at The Open. There's a handful of courses that can thwart this mind numbing excuse for a game. But it's jumped the shark, the thrills are as enduring as a sugar high from Sweet Tarts. So give me retro reels of Seve and I just might be okay.