Matthew Fitzpatrick whines about BDC...

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

Who in your group carries it 400 yards?

 

If you're talking about pros, who cares.  Build new courses.

🤦‍♂️Good lord.  Of course we’re talking future of the game.  The pro game.  375 plus happened several times this week. Let’s don’t pretend Bryson is the fastest.  He’s not. Finau has more in the tank.  And the body to actually do it. And the next ones are in the incubator as we type.  Build new courses ?  That’s a non starter from a $ and environmental standpoint and you know it.  Lol.  Come on man.  

Edited October 12, 2020 by bladehunter

[bladehunter]

41 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Exactly.  And now the  Premier Golf League is lurking right around the corner waiving millions of dollars.  A ball/equipment rollback would at the very least disrupt and provide further reasons for players to potentially leave the PGA Tour and join the PGL.  The PGA Tour does not want to see distance reduced and manufacturers don't want the B word.  Long bombs rule and the USGA, twenty years later, find themselves in an even deeper mess. 

 

Adjusting course layouts at the professional level is the most practical solution to satisfy the principals sitting at the table.

And if that could work.  Fine.  But.  Will it ?  As in will the viewership be happy watching 3 wood and irons off every tee box ?  That’s  what happens if you squeeze the course to penalize driver enough to matters. You get layups.  

[pinestreetgolf]

9 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

And if that could work.  Fine.  But.  Will it ?  As in will the viewership be happy watching 3 wood and irons off every tee box ?  That’s  what happens if you squeeze the course to penalize driver enough to matters. You get layups.  

 

Or you just make the courses 8000 yards.

[bladehunter]

Just now, pinestreetgolf said:

 

Or you just make the courses 8000 yards.

Not many can courses can do that.  And I don’t think 8k is enough.  Most likely need 8400 to make par 5s a real 3 wood go or  no go proposition.  

[LeoLeo99]

1 minute ago, bladehunter said:

Not many can courses can do that.  And I don’t think 8k is enough.  Most likely need 8400 to make par 5s a real 3 wood go or  no go proposition.  

8k makes it too unfair to the more mortals.  The longer courses get, the more advantage given to the long hitters.  

[bladehunter]

17 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

8k makes it too unfair to the more mortals.  The longer courses get, the more advantage given to the long hitters.  

Oh I agree.  Which I why I question the scale  of it going forward.  Long guys will always rule.  As it should be.  But there’s no real argument for not making those long guys fit the current property .  Your actually be handing the long guys their advantage back with a rollback.  Why people can’t see that blows my mind.  

[NoTalentLefty]

BD is force to be reckoned with. He not breaking rules but has put into play possibilities that have never been pushed this far. If it’s proven that it can be maintained on the overall frame of a human , strain on all the parts, will be determined. My guess is, if it works, more athletic bodies of larger sizes , will change the game forever. No judgement coming from me, it’s only a game. 

[mahonie]

39 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

And if that could work.  Fine.  But.  Will it ?  As in will the viewership be happy watching 3 wood and irons off every tee box ?  That’s  what happens if you squeeze the course to penalize driver enough to matters. You get layups.  

...and that’s the point where the OEMs realise that they are only selling drivers, wedges and putters, 50% of their market has disappeared and they start petitioning the PGA Tour to please stop the distance arms race.

[pinestreetgolf]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Oh I agree.  Which I why I question the scale  of it going forward.  Long guys will always rule.  As it should be.  But there’s no real argument for not making those long guys fit the current property .  Your actually be handing the long guys their advantage back with a rollback.  Why people can’t see that blows my mind.  

 

The point isn't to "hand the advantage back with a rollback" its to not punish people who figure out how to get the ball in the hole in fewer strokes.  I'm sorry you don't like the ascetic of what golf has become, but I do, and I'm hopeful we get to continue to see prime athletes in top condition hit the ball a country mile.

[Dr. Block]

1 minute ago, bladehunter said:

Oh I agree.  Which I why I question the scale  of it going forward.  Long guys will always rule.  As it should be.  But there’s no real argument for not making those long guys fit the current property .  Your actually be handing the long guys their advantage back with a rollback.  Why people can’t see that blows my mind.  

Maybe one of these days this debate will cool off.  Golf Equipment is maxed, the pro game is what it is.  Go out and enjoy the way you can play with this stuff - its pretty incredible really. 

 

The tournament this past week showed that normal tour layouts bring parity.  Hit it close, make the putts, and you can beat anybody. 

[mahonie]

4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Oh I agree.  Which I why I question the scale  of it going forward.  Long guys will always rule.  As it should be.  But there’s no real argument for not making those long guys fit the current property .  Your actually be handing the long guys their advantage back with a rollback.  Why people can’t see that blows my mind.  

That’s a valid point right there. There’s been a lot of talk about the big egos of the pros. I think the bigger problem is the ego of the weekend warrior who can’t see him/herself competing with any degree of rollback. As it will be the same for everyone, what’s the issue with a rollback?

[marmaduk]

 

[Sean2]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Not many can courses can do that.  And I don’t think 8k is enough.  Most likely need 8400 to make par 5s a real 3 wood go or  no go proposition.  

At that yardage, a number of current members of the PGA Tour would probably have to hang up their clubs, lol. 

[oikos1]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

And if that could work.  Fine.  But.  Will it ?  As in will the viewership be happy watching 3 wood and irons off every tee box ?  That’s  what happens if you squeeze the course to penalize driver enough to matters. You get layups.  

This is where I don't understand the logic.  I always thought a good layout required a number of holes with risk/reward for the golfer to think about on the tee box.  Wouldn't limiting equipment so the ball doesn't go as far essentially be forcing a layup?  If the player has 50 more yards in them and wants to take the risk of getting into trouble but we don't get to see it because the equipment restricts, well then, what is the point?  Might as well have everybody drop at 150 yards and start from there.

 

 

[Shilgy]

On 10/10/2020 at 9:12 AM, bladehunter said:

Yes.  Absolutely..... but it minimizes the mental game.  It’s hard to argue that a pitching wedge over water into a par 5 ( as Bryson had yesterday ) isn’t less of a mental battle than say a 5 iron from 200 over that same pond.   Or maybe even a 2 iron from 230 over that pond.    That’s exactly the other pros arguments against it.  That it makes “the game “ ( which usually refers to the mental strategic game ) too easy. 

That’s a great idea! Except if you roll the ball back  Bryson has the 200 yard 5 iron and many other players are laying up because they cannot reach at all. You absolutely cannot outlaw a length advantage when the player is able to hit it as straight as Bryson does. Driving a 360+ yard par 4 is not blindly slashing away. It takes a ton of skill to hit it on the green from that distance. That is length plus accuracy.

BDC is NOT just blindly thrashing away at driver.  And Fitzpatrick claims that at the US Open he drove it brilliantly and missed the cut by one while Bryson was in the rough all day every day and won. Lol give me a break. Fitzpatrick hit 43% of his fairways for two rounds and Bryson hit 41% for the event. 

[vtpachyderm]

I don't get why we're getting all in a huff about a select group of very talented people (lets say 200 out of the millions who play the game worldwide) who can do amazing things on a golf course that we regular hobbyist golfers can only imagine accomplishing. It's absolutely remarkable seeing what can be accomplished by athletes that are willing to put in the effort and will to do things.

 

What they accomplish in no way affects my enjoyment of the game (45 years old, with a busted left arm, but I can drive it 235-250, and maybe 280 downwind, 150 yard 8 iron, and 100 yard 50 deg gap wedge), but actually motivates me to work harder at getting better knowing what can be achieved. This past season I finally broke 80 on my home course, and got into single digits hcp, not through equipment, but lessons and fitness, which gained me 20-25 yards across the bag, plus cleaning up my putting. I'm under no illusions of being a regular 280+ driver, but I want to maximise what I can achieve given my willingness to commit to getting better i.e. how much practice and gym work I can put into golf given all my other activities.

 

Watching the PGA is just pure entertainment for me, and I watch the LPGA if I want to 'learn' something about how to play the game.

 

What BDC has managed to do is pretty cool, and I can only applaud him for having an idea and actually getting it to work for him. That's some skill right there, and Fitzpatrick just sounds like sour grapes to me.

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

And if that could work.  Fine.  But.  Will it ?  As in will the viewership be happy watching 3 wood and irons off every tee box ?  That’s  what happens if you squeeze the course to penalize driver enough to matters. You get layups.  

When Seve dominated seemingly by hitting recovery shots on every hole people thought it was great. And Jack and Arnie are celebrated for driving par 4’s in majors. If the name of the game, and yes it is analytics driven, is get as close as possible why would players lay up off the tee as you suggest they would? Did that work at Winged Foot? The consensus has been the fairways were TOO NARROW to allow the shorter hitter to compete. And you want them shrunk?

Edited October 12, 2020 by Shilgy

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

The point isn't to "hand the advantage back with a rollback" its to not punish people who figure out how to get the ball in the hole in fewer strokes.  I'm sorry you don't like the ascetic of what golf has become, but I do, and I'm hopeful we get to continue to see prime athletes in top condition hit the ball a country mile.

I don’t say that was anyone’s point. It would be a side effect.   
 

the truth is they aren’t putting it in the hole with fewer total  strokes.  They are just doing it with fewer clubs.  

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, mahonie said:

That’s a valid point right there. There’s been a lot of talk about the big egos of the pros. I think the bigger problem is the ego of the weekend warrior who can’t see him/herself competing with any degree of rollback. As it will be the same for everyone, what’s the issue with a rollback?

Bbbbbingo.   That’s the real ego issue here.  

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Sean2 said:

At that yardage, a number of current members of the PGA Tour would probably have to hang up their clubs, lol. 

Right.  I’m not at all for that.  That was my point. 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, oikos1 said:

This is where I don't understand the logic.  I always thought a good layout required a number of holes with risk/reward for the golfer to think about on the tee box.  Wouldn't limiting equipment so the ball doesn't go as far essentially be forcing a layup?  If the player has 50 more yards in them and wants to take the risk of getting into trouble but we don't get to see it because the equipment restricts, well then, what is the point?  Might as well have everybody drop at 150 yards and start from there.

 

 

That’s just it. The risk reward is gone whne they all blow it over fairway bunkers as if they aren’t there.  The holes are designed to either risk the bunker.  Or layup to a long or mid iron.  Risk the bunkers more often than not  would be put back into play.  Same for par 5s.  You’d see more layups but more greens missed going at it too.  Instead of the driver 8iron or 4 iron at most we see now on a lot of holes.   Now I’ll concede there are many monster par 5s that still require a wood in. Usually where length has been added.  13 at Augusta is a prime example of a par 5 who could be restored to risk reward.  Not auto birdie if you’re hitting it good.  We aren’t disagreeing much here.  

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

That’s a great idea! Except if you roll the ball back  Bryson has the 200 yard 5 iron and many other players are laying up because they cannot reach at all. You absolutely cannot outlaw a length advantage when the player is able to hit it as straight as Bryson does. Driving a 360+ yard par 4 is not blindly slashing away. It takes a ton of skill to hit it on the green from that distance. That is length plus accuracy.

BDC is NOT just blindly thrashing away at driver.  And Fitzpatrick claims that at the US Open he drove it brilliantly and missed the cut by one while Bryson was in the rough all day every day and won. Lol give me a break. Fitzpatrick hit 43% of his fairways for two rounds and Bryson hit 41% for the event. 

Right.   Not everybody used to hit every par 5 in 2.  Long advantage realized. 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

When Seve dominated seemingly by hitting recovery shots on every hole people thought it was great. And Jack and Arnie are celebrated for driving par 4’s in majors. If the name of the game, and yes it is analytics driven, is get as close as possible why would players lay up off the tee as you suggest they would? Did that work at Winged Foot? The consensus has been the fairways were TOO NARROW to allow the shorter hitter to compete. And you want them shrunk?

No i do not . That was in response to oikos suggesting that setup was the answer.  I assumed he meant adding bunkers , growing rough and narrowing fairways in order to take driver out of hands.   My comment was devils advocate , suggesting what would happen if his suggestion was the rollback method used.  

[Krt22]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Oh I agree.  Which I why I question the scale  of it going forward.  Long guys will always rule.  As it should be.  But there’s no real argument for not making those long guys fit the current property .  Your actually be handing the long guys their advantage back with a rollback.  Why people can’t see that blows my mind.  

But what if the roll backs are "progressive", you know, to make it fair for everyone lol. 

[Bubb]

3 hours ago, vtpachyderm said:

I don't get why we're getting all in a huff about a select group of very talented people (lets say 200 out of the millions who play the game worldwide) who can do amazing things on a golf course that we regular hobbyist golfers can only imagine accomplishing. It's absolutely remarkable seeing what can be accomplished by athletes that are willing to put in the effort and will to do things.

 

What they accomplish in no way affects my enjoyment of the game (45 years old, with a busted left arm, but I can drive it 235-250, and maybe 280 downwind, 150 yard 8 iron, and 100 yard 50 deg gap wedge), but actually motivates me to work harder at getting better knowing what can be achieved. This past season I finally broke 80 on my home course, and got into single digits hcp, not through equipment, but lessons and fitness, which gained me 20-25 yards across the bag, plus cleaning up my putting. I'm under no illusions of being a regular 280+ driver, but I want to maximise what I can achieve given my willingness to commit to getting better i.e. how much practice and gym work I can put into golf given all my other activities.

 

Watching the PGA is just pure entertainment for me, and I watch the LPGA if I want to 'learn' something about how to play the game.

 

What BDC has managed to do is pretty cool, and I can only applaud him for having an idea and actually getting it to work for him. That's some skill right there, and Fitzpatrick just sounds like sour grapes to me.

Because the most recent course built in my area (Pfau) is 7908 yards long. That did not need to happen and you can imagine the extra resources and costs associated with longer and longer courses. This 7900 yard course will never host the PGA tour pros, but the effects of ever increasing distance has hit home nonetheless.

[llewol007]

Look it is a lock, Bryson won again this week at the Shriners Open because of his length advantage.  

[Titleist99]

7 hours ago, bladehunter said:

🤦‍♂️Good lord.  Of course we’re talking future of the game.  The pro game.  375 plus happened several times this week. Let’s don’t pretend Bryson is the fastest.  He’s not. Finau has more in the tank.  And the body to actually do it. And the next ones are in the incubator as we type.  Build new courses ?  That’s a non starter from a $ and environmental standpoint and you know it.  Lol.  Come on man.  

Everyone plays the same course and the one with the fewest strokes win....be it a 6000 yard course or 8000 yard course. At the end of the competition a champion will be crowned. That's the object of the game and how the game was invented....It's just that simple.

[bladehunter]

23 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Everyone plays the same course and the one with the fewest strokes win....be it a 6000 yard course or 8000 yard course. At the end of the competition a champion will be crowned. That's the object of the game and how the game was invented....It's just that simple.

By that logic , can’t we then shrink it down to a putting contest and forgo the expense of caring for all the acreage ? 

of course scale matters .... if it didn’t we wouldn’t have seen all the lengthening to try to balance it. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by bladehunter

[pinestreetgolf]

30 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

By that logic , can’t we then shrink it down to a putting contest and forgo the expense of caring for all the acreage ? 

of course scale matters .... if it didn’t we wouldn’t have seen all the lengthening to try to balance it. 

 

If you admit scale matters then all this really is is you wanting everyone to like what you like.  I have no idea why you would have any issues with BDC hitting it 330 yards and winning a US Open and making others try to get as good as he is.  I don't care about putting.  Ben Hogan famously said putting isn't golf, and that you should end the hold by playing closest to the stick once on the green.  I think Hogan would enjoy the dominance of the long ball in today's game just like some of us do.  Its like cars.  Cars are stilled called cars now, they've  just evolved.  Same with golf.

 

I realize you're hedging all your posts, and I appreciate that, but we're approaching "damn long hitters get off my lawn" territory.

[clevited]

I don't know that anyone can truly appreciate what Bryson has done until you have experienced it yourself.  The faster you get, the more perfect your impact has to be.  The more easily you hit it into the crap, or curve the ball off the planet, especially with as low a lofted a driver as he is currently playing.  With great power comes great responsibility right?  Combine what he has accomplished with the long ball to his elite skills in all other aspects of his game lately, and you have a major winner.  Not hard to understand.  There are several guys on tour right now that can hit it as far or farther than Bryson, they just currently don't have the skill to keep it straight, or the balls to let it fly, or the skills to make much use of it.  Or perhaps all of the above.

 

I am talking DJ, Rory, Holmes, Finau, Champ, Woodland, B. Watson, along with a few others.

 

If I could get a show of hands, who here knows what it feels like to hit balls as hard as Bryson on the course?  I have a lot of respect for these guys that are kicking it out there in the 180s and 190s and keeping it as controlled as they do simply because I can understand how hard it is from experience.  There is immense talent and impressive physical gifts that make that a possibility.