Matthew Fitzpatrick whines about BDC...

[jmck]

2 minutes ago, clevited said:

You sir are getting your feathers ruffled too much over this one point.  Did you read all the other stuff in my post before?  The extra houses are just one of many points that go against the whole making courses longer BS.  You act like I am hinging my point of view of courses being longer being stupid on the extra houses thing. It is one thing of several.   It just so happens it has been mentioned in more than a few articles and it is highly believable that it is a factor in the length of courses these days.  Is it a factor all of the time, no.  Now, if you really are in this field of expertise, and I have no reason to believe you aren't (but you could be one of those people that likes to lie to try and win an argument) then it would be great if you can answer the following questions.

 

-does your experience, represent the experience you would find all across the country?  Or does it differ depending on area/geography/laws/etc.

-you are certain, no decision has been made by any course architects or those involved with planning of a new or existing golf course/residential development to make a par 5 a little longer so we can add one more property to the border of it or something along those lines?  I find it hard to believe they wouldn't or it hasn't happened.  It is also something that it has been mentioned as often as it has.  

-Do you really think I think it is a conspiracy theory?  I never said such a thing, I merely think it is a piece of the puzzle as to why courses are getting longer and longer.  It has been mentioned too often in articles by people that also are supposedly "in the know".  I will give to you however that I don't know how big of a piece of the puzzle it may be.  I only know it has been brought up and has to be considered and mentioned when talking about courses lengthening.

 

If you want to keep this back and fourth going I suggest you rethink.  You can tell me all you want, and explain to me all of your experience all you want.  I will believe what I have read by mostly reputable sources in the past that extra houses is part of the puzzle.  I will believe those more than a random person I don't know on the internet.

Dude you can't even keep your own point straight.  Is it "extra houses" or "more golf front lots"?  Those are two very different as I've TRIED to point out to you. 

 

Anywho, I'm done here.  You're free to strongly believe whatever you want, no matter how wrong it is.  I'm comfortable in who I am and what I know.  You've been led to water...I'm not wasting any more time trying to make you take a drink.

 

If you want to call me a liar, here's today's junk mail folder.  What's in yours?  Bed Bath and Beyond coupons?  I'm certainly not going to bother going through your 'gotcha' nonsense point by point when you're clearly out of your element here and have displayed absolutely no desire to listen to anyone with a view point different than your own.

 

[bscinstnct]

Matthew Fitzpatrick latest statement:

 

 

Uh, never mind 😬

[clevited]

1 minute ago, jmck said:

Dude you can't even keep your own point straight.  Is it "extra houses" or "more golf front lots"?  Those are two very different as I've TRIED to point out to you. 

 

Anywho, I'm done here.  You're free to strongly believe whatever you want, no matter how wrong it is.  I'm comfortable in who I am and what I know.  You've been led to water...I'm not wasting any more time trying to make you take a drink.

 

If you want to call me a liar, here's today's junk mail folder.  What's in yours?  Bed Bath and Beyond coupons?  I'm certainly not going to bother going through your 'gotcha' nonsense point by point when you're clearly out of your element here and have displayed absolutely no desire to listen to anyone with a view point different than your own.

 

I am not sure why you are being so hostile?  I wasn't calling you a liar, just that I cannot possibly believe a person on the internet over a larger and more convincing amount of evidence I have read to the contrary of what you are saying.  I think also you misunderstand me to a large degree and are taking what I am saying as some kind of attack on who you are or something (btw, I thought I was clear, when I say extra houses I am talking ON the course). I have no interest in further derailing this thread or continuing aggravating you.  I would be very open to discussing CIVILLY via PM if you are interested or even starting a new thread where we can hash this out if you are so inclined.  You can share all of your knowledge there and we can come to an understanding.  If you have the extensive knowledge you say you have that refutes the articles and interviews I have read over the years, well then you can happily put this to bed and hopefully spread that knowledge to more people?

 

How does that sound?  

 

FYI, I understand completely your points about houses IN the development and worth and such. There are other points I would like to make with that which will clarify where I am coming from.  Would love to pick your brain on those.

[bladehunter]

59 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

Matthew Fitzpatrick latest statement:

 

 

Uh, never mind 😬

Right.  We’re now on a journey into the way beyond ! 

[ThinkingPlus]

9 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I see that possibility. But I’m not sure it holds up past 1987 or so.   I worked in maintenance from 1995-1999 while in school.  From mowing greens ( walk and ride ) to fairways and last a gang unit on roughs.     We used the same mowers then as used now.  On bent greens.  On a 36 hole private course that hosted the hooters tour every year.  Not Augusta but not a muni goat track.  I just don’t see how that course was easier 20 years before that ? And if it was , nobody is wanting it rolled back that far.  
    My home course is same.  Built in 1969.  Has more undulating greens than anywhere I play all summer.  It’s literally same course it’s always been. You could walk back in time and play it with ancient gear and know how it would be.  
 

your concerns ( we’ve discussed several times ) are the only ones I’ve heard that make sense .  There’s no doubt that new front tees would be needed on many newer courses with forced carries etc.  

The undulations existed back in the day, but the greens stimped at 7 or maybe 8.  Much easier than stimped at 10 - 11.

[Shilgy]

5 hours ago, Nard_S said:

I've been playing same course since 1990, the course is easier today than then. The greens are smoother, some bunkers flattened or even taken out. Trees were trimmed away five years ago. With their Epic drivers & G400 irons, nobody is shattering course records there still.

 

Greg Norman pointed out that the biggest beneficiary of tech is the better player. COR does little for the 200-220 hitter, the Pro V ball means zilch to the #6i from 150 guy. Does Velocor shafts help the current bunters any? So you know what he's right. So if bifurcation happens, it will mean next to nothing for the average player. Btw, back in 1990 there was a defacto bifurcation, few folks played Tour 100 Balata, they played rock hard Top-Flite distance balls.

 

I say 385 cc drivers, 11 clubs and a ball that has more initial spin and more aerodynamic drag is a start to get tour golf reeled in again.

When was the course built? Sounds nice.

[Nard_S]

2 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

When was the course built? Sounds nice.

Late 1960's. It's a municipal course but they brought in an ace greens keeper who worked at high end private club. They rebuilt the bunkers & tee boxes and trimmed up trees. I always felt they went too far on traps and extent of trees. But the greens are crazy good. Set at "10" & super smooth. In the Fall, they can get PGA fast, yet they always remain moist & receptive. 

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, Nard_S said:

Late 1960's. It's a municipal course but they brought in an ace greens keeper who worked at high end private club. They rebuilt the bunkers & tee boxes and trimmed up trees. I always felt they went too far on traps and extent of trees. But the greens are crazy good. Set at "10" & super smooth. In the Fall, they can get PGA fast, yet they always remain moist & receptive. 

Sometimes what members say is “easier” is better for a multitude of reasons. Many courses that age and especially older are removing and trimming back the tree line.  Simple reason is the trees grow. And many clubs had tree planting campaigns in the 50’s and 60’s because the then US Open look of tree lined fairways was in vogue.  But as they grow and encroach on the lines of play some need to be removed.  For both turf and pace of play reasons.  Bunkers were a similar reason. Many courses have replaced bunkers with rough. Much easier to maintain which reduces cost. But also not “easier” .  Your typical shot that rolls into a bunker rolls to a flat portion of manicured sand. Whereas the same shot into the rough is more likely to stay on the sloped rough. Creating a more difficult shot than from the bunker.

Obviously you play it a lot and I have not but in general that is why so many courses have done such restorations.

[Nard_S]

5 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Sometimes what members say is “easier” is better for a multitude of reasons. Many courses that age and especially older are removing and trimming back the tree line.  Simple reason is the trees grow. And many clubs had tree planting campaigns in the 50’s and 60’s because the then US Open look of tree lined fairways was in vogue.  But as they grow and encroach on the lines of play some need to be removed.  For both turf and pace of play reasons.  Bunkers were a similar reason. Many courses have replaced bunkers with rough. Much easier to maintain which reduces cost. But also not “easier” .  Your typical shot that rolls into a bunker rolls to a flat portion of manicured sand. Whereas the same shot into the rough is more likely to stay on the sloped rough. Creating a more difficult shot than from the bunker.

Obviously you play it a lot and I have not but in general that is why so many courses have done such restorations.

Yeah you're spot on with your thoughts. I could see that some trees were damaging the health of greens. Also the dog legs became quite severe. The bunkers though, they went a bit too far and dulled the teeth on several of the holes. Certainly made maintenance easier. On balance, they did add new bunkers to fit big Ti driving on the par 5's. Truth maybe just 10% have an issue with those. Pace of play did pick up too.

 

[OrangeGravy]

14 hours ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

*whoosh*  That was the issue going right over your head.

 

If you rollback the ball, you either 1. also roll it back for the masses, which would be a slower play disaster and make the game much, much harder (unless you are also going to convince people to hit from the correct tees, which hasn't worked for decades) or 2. bifurcate, and have one pro rule and one amateur rule, never sure who is hitting what ball, removing from golf the amazing status of being the only sport where amateurs and pros play by nearly-identical rules, and decrease viewership that way.  Its not because people won't watch if you take away the long ball.  Its because people won't watch if you make pro golf unrecognizably different than our golf. Kids wouldn't watch NBA stars play on a 15' hoop with a huge ball to make it harder if that isn't what they're playing in their gyms.

 

There is no good answer to the rollback question.  Which is why every rollback supporter in this thread just says "rollback!" and then no details at all.  It would be impossible to actually implement.

It wouldn't make anything harder on the masses. If they insist on staying at the same tees ( like they do now anyway) , they're making it harder on themselves. Golf not being bifurcated is not amazing and has nothing to do with viewership. 

[Sean2]

On 10/13/2020 at 1:00 PM, Dr. Block said:

Amen Brother.  That was entertaining basketball.  The best player in the NBA wasn't driving to the hoop then whining because he didn't get a foul call, he was laying in a heap on the hardwood between the blocks.   At least I can still see and play basketball like that at my local LA Fitness.

While Bill Laimbeer was mugging people oh the court, lol. 

[Sean2]

7 hours ago, OrangeGravy said:

It wouldn't make anything harder on the masses. If they insist on staying at the same tees ( like they do now anyway) , they're making it harder on themselves. Golf not being bifurcated is not amazing and has nothing to do with viewership. 

And, sometimes those tees they play right now are too long for them...let alone playing them with a rolled back golf ball. 

[Frankensteins Monster]

Other than Fitzpatrick making himself look like a small, jealous crybaby, the most laughable part of his comment is his thinking that adding two inches to his driver is all needs needs to do to catch up do Dechambeau. His words are laughably pathetic.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Frankensteins Monster

[Dr. Block]

4 hours ago, Sean2 said:

While Bill Laimbeer was mugging people oh the court, lol. 

haha, yeah.  Even for that era, Bill Laimbeer was a little much.  That time he low-bridged Patrick Ewing was dastardly 

[bscinstnct]

2 hours ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

Other than Fitzpatrick making himself look like a small, jealous crybaby, the most laughable part of his comment is his thinking that adding two inches to his driver is all needs needs to do to catch up do Dechambeau. His words are laughably pathetic.

 

 

[blueonblack]

On 10/11/2020 at 6:30 PM, bladehunter said:

Pretty much the choice though.  Broad strokes for the rules is how golf  works.   The alternative is the dreaded B word.  And that brings on allot of angst amongst the masses.  
 

at the same time I realize that isn’t what you meant in a way.  But in another way it’s the same thing.  Most choices or non choices can be boiled down to a simple lynch pin.  Most often it’s $.  Or $ pressure in the name of safety etc.  

if nothing is rolled back it’s because of $.  They’ve talked too much about it to then claim there’s no issue.  Too much smoke.  So loss of revenue  and or lawsuits because of loss of revenue is the only reason not to.  

Why is the B word dreaded? If anything, I am seeing a call for it unlike I have ever before.

I don't want anything relating to public golf courses getting caught up in this distance narrative is the ONLY reason I don't like this, and frankly, could care less what equipment they use on tour any longer. I can't swing like them.

 

So DO NOT say my local golf course is no longer "valid" because it isn't long enough.

DO NOT use this distance narrative as the final excuse to shut down my MUNI's and put up housing. THIS is what I fear coming from the "distance narrative." Just an excuse to finally shut down more public golf venues. Don't let it happen. Let you city council know you have eyes on them, and the county, and everyone else. It's YOUR course to defend.

[cardoustie]

The tour is to blame.  They wanted long and open courses with fast and firm fairways that are WIDE for fan viewing and long drives

 

Control the pro's?  Easy peasy.  Narrower, not longer.   You see this every time the pro's play a course like Harbor Town or Merion.  It's the big new courses that have turned the game into BOMBS AWAY mentality.    

 

Making ANGC longer to "Tiger Proof" it played right into the Big Cat's paws IIRC

 

And lastly, why is everyone so ramped up about BdC? 

 

Wolff could've easily won at Vegas and he is every bit as long as Bryson and was hitting GW into the par 5 sixteenth in round 4 ... just sayin'

 

Rory & DJ have been just a long for quite a while and the world wasn't ending with their skill set??? 

[Sean2]

Seems like another example of a solution in search of a problem. 

[Dr. Block]

23 minutes ago, cardoustie said:

The tour is to blame.  They wanted long and open courses with fast and firm fairways that are WIDE for fan viewing and long drives

 

Control the pro's?  Easy peasy.  Narrower, not longer.   You see this every time the pro's play a course like Harbor Town or Merion.  It's the big new courses that have turned the game into BOMBS AWAY mentality.    

 

Making ANGC longer to "Tiger Proof" it played right into the Big Cat's paws IIRC

 

And lastly, why is everyone so ramped up about BdC? 

 

Wolff could've easily won at Vegas and he is every bit as long as Bryson and was hitting GW into the par 5 sixteenth in round 4 ... just sayin'

 

Rory & DJ have been just a long for quite a while and the world wasn't ending with their skill set??? 

Rory, DJ, Wolff, or any of the other tour players who are just as long (or longer) then Bryson haven't made a media spectacle out of their approach to improving and winning.  I think that is the difference.  We live in an era where a headline lasts for about half a day, the golf media has to latch on to something to drive their ad revenue, and like it or not when something is jammed into your face enough, it will find its way to your brain. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Dr. Block

[cardoustie]

the announcers fawning over length isn't helping

 

And I am not using fawning lightly

 

"OMG Jimmy. 6 iron from 235.  In your day have you ever seen that?  Incredible !  What a physique, what a specimen, just a raw talent, the shoulders, the power, the speed, the ferocity of the downswing, could be a linebacker for Tampa Bay tomorrow or have pitched for the Yankees"

 

"Such a talented talent, a rare talent"

 

MEANWHILE IN THE NON MEDIA BS BLAH BLAH BLAH GIVE ME ATTENTION WORLD ..,  The tour sauce guy is downhill and a little down-fan with a slight flyer from the light rough and wants to carry it to just past the front edge of the green and have it release so really the carry is effectively 200 .. BUT NOT FOR THE SYCOPHANTIC AND HYPERBOLIC AND DELUSIONAL SHOT CALLERS 

Edited October 15, 2020 by cardoustie

[bscinstnct]

Tigre’s answer,

 

792 yard course ; )

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/10/13/golf/short-golf-course-tiger-woods-cmd-spc-spt-intl/index.html

 

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, blueonblack said:

Why is the B word dreaded? If anything, I am seeing a call for it unlike I have ever before.

I don't want anything relating to public golf courses getting caught up in this distance narrative is the ONLY reason I don't like this, and frankly, could care less what equipment they use on tour any longer. I can't swing like them.

 

So DO NOT say my local golf course is no longer "valid" because it isn't long enough.

DO NOT use this distance narrative as the final excuse to shut down my MUNI's and put up housing. THIS is what I fear coming from the "distance narrative." Just an excuse to finally shut down more public golf venues. Don't let it happen. Let you city council know you have eyes on them, and the county, and everyone else. It's YOUR course to defend.

Agree.  And that’s why I sound the alarm for what I see at the local and top  mid-am level .     I’ve played with some monsters in the last 3 years.  Two are at UGA now.   One a lefty who I swear to goodness is as long as anyone I’ve seen on TV or in person.   And he’s a tiny guy.  What I can’t get anyone to hear is that the first gen of players who grew up with a 460cc driver and an upward AoA as a natural driver swing is currently in college. People think distance is maxed.  It’s not.  But hey.  They’ll just have to see it to believe me.  

Edited October 15, 2020 by bladehunter

[bladehunter]

17 minutes ago, cardoustie said:

the announcers fawning over length isn't helping

 

And I am not using fawning lightly

 

"OMG Jimmy. 6 iron from 235.  In your day have you ever seen that?  Incredible !  What a physique, what a specimen, just a raw talent, the shoulders, the power, the speed, the ferocity of the downswing, could be a linebacker for Tampa Bay tomorrow or have pitched for the Yankees"

 

"Such a talented talent, a rare talent"

 

MEANWHILE IN THE NON MEDIA BS BLAH BLAH BLAH GIVE ME ATTENTION WORLD ..,  The tour sauce guy is downhill and a little down-fan with a slight flyer from the light rough and wants to carry it to just past the front edge of the green and have it release so really the carry is effectively 200 .. BUT NOT FOR THE SYCOPHANTIC AND HYPERBOLIC AND DELUSIONAL SHOT CALLERS 

Oh man high five on that.   These announcers tell fish stories like jimmy Houston recalling a bass he hooked and broke off in 1979. 

[Titleist99]

7 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

Tigre’s answer,

 

792 yard course ; )

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/10/13/golf/short-golf-course-tiger-woods-cmd-spc-spt-intl/index.html

 

 

 

 

The rollback crowd will still complain that to many wedges are being used.....lol!

[blueonblack]

33 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

Tigre’s answer,

 

792 yard course ; )

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/10/13/golf/short-golf-course-tiger-woods-cmd-spc-spt-intl/index.html

 

 

 

 

I absolutely fear this is what REMAINS for courses close to the city that they parcel up the land for houses/retail, and leave a 792 yard short course. This is what I fear. Shame on you, Tiger Woods.

Following in the Nicklaus footsteps, are we? Elitists. Boo.

[Dr. Block]

35 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

Tigre’s answer,

 

792 yard course ; )

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/10/13/golf/short-golf-course-tiger-woods-cmd-spc-spt-intl/index.html

 

 

 

 

That course looks like a good bit of fun.  I used to play something similar with my buddy down in Greenville, SC.  It's been some years, so I can't remember the name, but I think it's owned by the Haas's.  Blade probably knows of it.   Playing there really dialed in the scoring clubs, and it was just a lot of fun in general.  It even had lights so it could be played at night. 

[blueonblack]

29 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Oh man high five on that.   These announcers tell fish stories like jimmy Houston recalling a bass he hooked and broke off in 1979. 

The distinctly disturbing part is how a lot of this is history repeating.

 

WWII Olympics, the concept of "ideal man" and improvement of the physical specimen to achieve "great things." Yes. There was just a documentary of this the other night on PBS, as politically slanted as even that media outlet is today.

 

Golf and society are playing with absolute FIRE right now.

 

Knock it the hell off!

[blueonblack]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Block said:

That course looks like a good bit of fun.  I used to play something similar with my buddy down in Greenville, SC.  It's been some years, so I can't remember the name, but I think it's owned by the Haas's.  Blade probably knows of it.   Playing there really dialed in the scoring clubs, and it was just a lot of fun in general.  It even had lights so it could be played at night. 

Love little courses like that. Have seen a few close around here, unfortunately and most 9 hole/executives as well, and even ranges.

 

And I fear they cut down the inner city courses to something akin to this.

Which is not all that "good," ultimately. Keep an eye on people.

[gvogel]

39 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

The rollback crowd will still complain that to many wedges are being used.....lol!

And according to you the USGA could hold the US Open there because: LOWEST SCORE WINS!

[bscinstnct]

48 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Oh man high five on that.   These announcers tell fish stories like jimmy Houston recalling a bass he hooked and broke off in 1979. 

 

Ha!

 

Speaking of legendary Bass anglers

 

Im convinced that Roland Martin made a deal with the devil to catch big bass. Just something evil about him

 

Ill take Bill Dance! Now there’s a cool guy. I even ordered the Tennessee hat, got it somewheres ; )