Had a lesson... I think he's right, but I'm not sure I want to be fixed

[2bGood]

 

[naval2006]

4 hours ago, Krt22 said:

 Many people turn into dirty hookers by shifting their swing direction too far to the right, using old sayings like swing to right field and hit the inside quadrant of the ball.

Fewer thoughts have ruined so many golfers. And you go to a driving range and there are golfers and teachers still working on it.  

[TheDeanAbides]

22 minutes ago, naval2006 said:

Fewer thoughts have ruined so many golfers. And you go to a driving range and there are golfers and teachers still working on it.  

Every single time I see that swing pattern I wince for their game and back.

[wagolfer7]

I like @Krt22.  And agree with most that he posts.  

 

I do not agree with this one though.  The intent to swing in to out when done properly is a good move.  For those wrecking their backs and hitting duck hooks, well it's not a magic cure and won't fix all your swing faults.  

 

Every good golfer I've played with and a few that I've been able to talk swing with, all have the intent to swing out.  I just don't understand how all of you want to shallow the club and have the club positioned on the inside at delivery position, if not wanting to hit the ball from the inside.  

 

But to each his own.  Good luck to everyone.  As golf is certainly not easy to improve at.  

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

I like @Krt22.  And agree with most that he posts.  

 

I do not agree with this one though.  The intent to swing in to out when done properly is a good move.  For those wrecking their backs and hitting duck hooks, well it's not a magic cure and won't fix all your swing faults.  

 

Every good golfer I've played with and a few that I've been able to talk swing with, all have the intent to swing out.  I just don't understand how all of you want to shallow the club and have the club positioned on the inside at delivery position, if not wanting to hit the ball from the inside.  

 

But to each his own.  Good luck to everyone.  As golf is certainly not easy to improve at.  

That is the issue, most simply do not do it properly. They add a bunch of right tilt and/or heavily manipulate their hand path to achieve it. If you want to play a consistent small draw, you realistically only need path a few degrees from in to out. For the most part the in to out part is taken care if the club is coming in shallow with low point in front of the ball due to the relationship between swing direction and angle of attack, its essentially the byproduct of a sound mechanical swing.

 

When you see guys throwing their hands out 30* to the right is when you start to have issues. Same goes for the folks that think a rightward pointing divot is a good thing, when in reality you can hit a push draw with square or even left facing divot. As with all things in golf, the answer is somewhere in the middle, going to the extreme on the other side of the slice spectrum can be just as detrimental for many golfers. I would gladly take a slightly out to in path over an extreme in to out one.

[TheDeanAbides]

11 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

That is the issue, most simply do not do it properly. They add a bunch of right tilt and/or heavily manipulate their hand path to achieve it. If you want to play a consistent small draw, you realistically only need path a few degrees from in to out. For the most part the in to out part is taken care if the club is coming in shallow with low point in front of the ball due to the relationship between swing direction and angle of attack, its essentially the byproduct of a sound mechanical swing.

 

When you see guys throwing their hands out 30* to the right is when you start to have issues. Same goes for the folks that think a rightward pointing divot is a good thing, when in reality you can hit a push draw with square or even left facing divot. As with all things in golf, the answer is somewhere in the middle, going to the extreme on the other side of the slice spectrum can be just as detrimental for many golfers. I would gladly take a slightly out to in path over an extreme in to out one.

Exactly this, mate. Perfect explanation. 

[wagolfer7]

13 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

That is the issue, most simply do not do it properly. They add a bunch of right tilt and/or heavily manipulate their hand path to achieve it. If you want to play a consistent small draw, you realistically only need path a few degrees from in to out. For the most part the in to out part is taken care if the club is coming in shallow with low point in front of the ball due to the relationship between swing direction and angle of attack, its essentially the byproduct of a sound mechanical swing.

 

When you see guys throwing their hands out 30* to the right is when you start to have issues. Same goes for the folks that think a rightward pointing divot is a good thing, when in reality you can hit a push draw with square or even left facing divot. As with all things in golf, the answer is somewhere in the middle, going to the extreme on the other side of the slice spectrum can be just as detrimental for many golfers. I would gladly take a slightly out to in path over an extreme in to out one.

 

The issue there is I never said swing in to out.  I actually said the opposite.  That the instructor is not necessarily saying to swing in to out.  Swinging from the inside doesn't mean in to out.  Just means coming into the ball from the inside.  Good golfers are closer to inside to inside than a big inside to out path.  That's why I posted the arc in the ground.

 

The difference in our philosphy I guess....is 90% of the golfers on here are coming outside to inside.  And in my opinion they would be better going inside to outside.  You'll hit it farther and be more consistent.  And no I'm not talking extremes.  Slight in to out, is better than out to in.  Pretty much anything better that coming into the ball from the outside.    

[LeftDaddy]

Back to the OP, in some ways this is a simple question/answer, and in some ways not. 

 

As others have said, do you want to get better (and are you willing to do the work that getting better takes)?  That’s relatively easy to answer for yourself I would think.

But the next level of the question, if the above answer is “Yes”, is whether this is the guy you “trust” to take you there?  My experience is that a lot of golf instructors just aren’t that good, so unfortunately a well-intentioned golfer sees an instructor hoping to get better, but the instructor doesn’t properly guide the golfer. I don’t know the answer to this question, and maybe you don’t either...may want to check around a bit and / or trust your gut instinct on him. 
 

A few additional thoughts for you. When I make swing changes I separate the “easy” fixes and the “hard” fixes. Most setup fixes fit in the “easy” category...not all, but most. I also consider many “start of the backswing” fixes to be “easy”.  Finally, getting a solid “look” at P4 shouldn’t be terribly hard. I do a lot of those first, then I progress to things like a better pivot, more shallowing, better path, wrist angles, forearm rotation, etc. (which tend to be harder for me).  I also don’t necessarily subscribe to the theory that you will get worse before you get better. Some fixes will just improve your swing straight up. So don’t think that you’ll have to stink for the next year if you want to go down this path. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by LeftDaddy

[Mych]

16 hours ago, 95124hacker said:

Do you trust the guy? A teacher with the wrong intentions for you can basically milk you for lesson after lesson, holding back immediate fixes long enough to keep you coming back for more... all the time counting the money you’ve spent on him. I’m sure they have to agree to some code of ethics but how enforceable is that?

 

Don’t get me wrong. I’m taking lessons myself but from a guy I’ve known for decades & completely trust. But I’ve also had lessons from one guy in particular that I know was just using me for steady cash flow.

 

I don't really have any reason to trust or distrust him. He definitely knows golf and comes from a golf family. He's played some low level professional golf and won the club championship at one local course in 1980 and 2013 (33 years apart), so whatever he's doing allowed him to play at a high level for a long time. I don't think he's giving me any bad advice or trying to change things just for the sake of change. He's also extremely low pressure. If I think it's value-added, I go back, but if not that's ok too. My swing is serviceable, so I'm mostly questioning my commitment to the change process and whether I'm willing to spend my next year of golf miserable just to get back to scores I can shoot now. 

 

 

14 hours ago, David69 said:

OP, your talking about approximately a 2 year fix with constant practice, intermittent lessons, much video, and a game that will get much worse before it gets better. Once you go down that rabbit hole of “swinging like the pros” there will be a point of no return where your old swing with all the flaws will be gone and your new swing will just suck, but get progressively better over the long haul. Or you could be a secret golf miracle that instantly is able to fix your swing in a month with a simple Monte Video. Lots of those here on this forum. Probably not though. 
 

How much time are you willing to dedicate to relearning your bodies swing pattern? Oh, and then you need to relearn the weight shift, the back turn, the grip, the bowed to flat wrist, the proper release and all of that minutia as well. It is never a simple fix with this ridiculous sport. You fix one thing and throw five things you thought you knew out of whack. 
 

If you are playing to a 10 cap but hitting technically incorrect OTT, it will likely take you 2 years to get back to a 10 cap but hitting it comfortably on the course with a completely new but correct inside swing path.
 

Guess how I know.... God speed. 

 

One issue is that I know I'm still fortunate enough to be able to substitute strength for technique. I can get away with some swing flaws at 42 that I may not be able to at 52 or 62, so eventually I need to have a more technically sound swing that will allow me to continue enjoying the game without depending on physical strength. 

 

With that said, I don't want a pro swing and honestly couldn't free up enough practice time to build one. I'd like a consistent, reliable swing that allows me to play as a high single-digit cap as I start getting older. I honestly don't care what the swing or the shot shape look like, as long as I know where the ball is going and can manage the course accordingly.

 

Once you got back to your "old" cap, did you continue to improve past there or did you settle into basically the same scoring with a prettier swing?

Edited April 14, 2021 by Mych

[Petethreeput]

A few things.  I would assume when you agreed to get the lesson there was interest in improving, or at least learning about the golf swing to incorporate into your game to improve.  Also, if the concern is later in life, then it is true fundamentals carry the game as we age, and since our health isn't guaranteed I would want to at least start the process of working the changes at a younger age.  Lastly, now your friend has the ammo (and clearly you discuss the golf swing often enough to take a lesson together), do you want to hear him/her constantly telling you your set up isn't what you were told?

 

So my thoughts are, everything points to, "try it."  Eventually if you don't schedule follow ups you will revert to the old swing and nothing is lost, but if you do see improvement immediately then it might be something to pursue with some follow up lessons.

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

The issue there is I never said swing in to out.  I actually said the opposite.  That the instructor is not necessarily saying to swing in to out.  Swinging from the inside doesn't mean in to out.  Just means coming into the ball from the inside.  Good golfers are closer to inside to inside than a big inside to out path.  That's why I posted the arc in the ground.

 

The difference in our philosphy I guess....is 90% of the golfers on here are coming outside to inside.  And in my opinion they would be better going inside to outside.  You'll hit it farther and be more consistent.  And no I'm not talking extremes.  Slight in to out, is better than out to in.  Pretty much anything better that coming into the ball from the outside.    

In theory I 100% agree, in practice it's another story IMHO. While you did not say swing in to out, many golfers ultimately end up doing that because of the "swing from the inside" intents I mentioned. I started this because the OPs said the instructor said he needs to come from the inside. If an instructor tells a student that without going into the fine details of how to properly shallow the shaft to achieve it (with irons), that notion alone can very well become detrimental(myself included!). I know very few people that hit consistent tight draws, far more hit a over-draw that can easily turn into the block/hook 2-way miss. 

 

The last part do not agree with, I would much rather average 1-2 out to in than say 6-7 in to out. Getting closer to neutral ( in either direction) is more important than simply hitting from the inside. Plenty of pros make a ton of money with slight out to in paths. 

[David69]

32 minutes ago, Mych said:

One issue is that I know I'm still fortunate enough to be able to substitute strength for technique. I can get away with some swing flaws at 42 that I may not be able to at 52 or 62, so eventually I need to have a more technically sound swing that will allow me to continue enjoying the game without depending on physical strength. 

 

With that said, I don't want a pro swing and honestly couldn't free up enough practice time to build one. I'd like a consistent, reliable swing that allows me to play as a high single-digit cap as I start getting older. I honestly don't care what the swing or the shot shape look like, as long as I know where the ball is going and can manage the course accordingly.

 

Once you got back to your "old" cap, did you continue to improve past there or did you settle into basically the same scoring with a prettier swing?

You are not going to lose anything at age 52 if you're in good shape. I'm 52 - hit the ball as far as I did when I started playing at about your age. If you are healthy you will be fine. I have days when it all comes together and I shoot in mid 70's - but lose dumb points on things like missed putts and maybe a duffed chip or awkward lie. Things that are more mental than swing flaws. Then I have times when I have to reset entirely and go back to basics just in order to keep a round together - which I think is somewhat normal. But no joke - golf instruction is geared to keep you in a cycle of constant golf instruction. That is inherent in the game - but also something that people who are thinking about making a big swing change should consider. All things equal - it was a lot of work - it is ongoing - and I am not 100% sure that it was worth it since i am not playing for money or to win competitions. I win any time I play a round and the ball does what I wanted it to do - which for me is a great round of golf regardless of the end scorecard. I have managed to be more consistent - but it was and is a ton of work. 

[LeftDaddy]

38 minutes ago, Mych said:

 

I don't really have any reason to trust or distrust him. He definitely knows golf and comes from a golf family. He's played some low level professional golf and won the club championship at one local course in 1980 and 2013 (33 years apart), so whatever he's doing allowed him to play at a high level for a long time. I don't think he's giving me any bad advice or trying to change things just for the sake of change. He's also extremely low pressure. If I think it's value-added, I go back, but if not that's ok too. My swing is serviceable, so I'm mostly questioning my commitment to the change process and whether I'm willing to spend my next year of golf miserable just to get back to scores I can shoot now. 

 

 

 

One issue is that I know I'm still fortunate enough to be able to substitute strength for technique. I can get away with some swing flaws at 42 that I may not be able to at 52 or 62, so eventually I need to have a more technically sound swing that will allow me to continue enjoying the game without depending on physical strength. 

 

With that said, I don't want a pro swing and honestly couldn't free up enough practice time to build one. I'd like a consistent, reliable swing that allows me to play as a high single-digit cap as I start getting older. I honestly don't care what the swing or the shot shape look like, as long as I know where the ball is going and can manage the course accordingly.

 

Once you got back to your "old" cap, did you continue to improve past there or did you settle into basically the same scoring with a prettier swing?

It isn’t an “absolute truth” that going through a swing change will necessarily mean you stinking for months. I’ll give you an example. 6 months ago I would have told you my short game was generally pretty good...some highs and lows but generally I was “content” with my short game. BUT, about 3-4 months ago my full swing work paid off and all of a sudden I started hitting a lot more fairways and greens. Guess what happened...I started to realize that my short game was now holding me back. So I did a lesson. I had one thing to fix, which was to get my takeaway more on plane (I was taking it away inside). I implemented it in a matter of 2 days at the chipping and pitching area. My short game is now MUCH better. 
 

Sure, some changes will mess you up for a little while. I had a lot to fix in my full swing, and that took me about 9 months before it really clicked. But man I tell you, it was so worth it to struggle a few times here and there last summer in pursuit of where I am now. I’ve only posted 8 rounds since everything “clicked” for me, and my handicap has dropped 3 strokes in that time. Had my first hole in one a couple of weeks ago. Broke 80 again. Etc. Sure, some changes will require some work and maybe even some bad days on the course, but generally anything that gets you more rotated and shallower and squares up your face is going to be nothing but “goodness”. 

[Mych]

17 minutes ago, David69 said:

You are not going to lose anything at age 52 if you're in good shape. I'm 52 - hit the ball as far as I did when I started playing at about your age. If you are healthy you will be fine. I have days when it all comes together and I shoot in mid 70's - but lose dumb points on things like missed putts and maybe a duffed chip or awkward lie. Things that are more mental than swing flaws. Then I have times when I have to reset entirely and go back to basics just in order to keep a round together - which I think is somewhat normal. But no joke - golf instruction is geared to keep you in a cycle of constant golf instruction. That is inherent in the game - but also something that people who are thinking about making a big swing change should consider. All things equal - it was a lot of work - it is ongoing - and I am not 100% sure that it was worth it since i am not playing for money or to win competitions. I win any time I play a round and the ball does what I wanted it to do - which for me is a great round of golf regardless of the end scorecard. I have managed to be more consistent - but it was and is a ton of work. 

 

That's another concern. If it's going to take a few hours/wk of practice, would I gain the same consistency by spending the extra practice time on consistently executing my current swing? There's probably no right or wrong answer to that, as long as the practice is properly structured and guided.

[Pepperturbo]

On 4/13/2021 at 6:06 AM, Mych said:

Instructor highlighted 3 initial priorities for me. 

1) Squaring clubface at setup (I set up fairly open)

2) Moving ball position further back in my stance with irons

3) Getting my transition/downswing to move inside to promote inside-out swing path and draw spin

Those are NOT difficult adjustments to make, least for my thinking. 

 

Squaring the club face and proper positioning of the ball in your stance are fundamental for trajectory and spin and ball control.

 

Of the three, "#3" is the most challenging to make consistent. 

 

PS -  I don't do things sloppy or happenstance, it's not about the score or playing in tournaments or money, but my expectations, who I am and how I do things.  Whether "YOU" do it or not depends on "YOU" and how "YOU" do things in life.  

Edited April 14, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[David69]

I was really only commenting on #3 - I thought it was obvious. As I stated - some people here on this forum seem to have no problem at all incorporating new moves into their golf swing in a matter of days/weeks/hours. That has not been the case for me - any of my friends - or nearly anyone that I have ever met in person and talked golf swing with. Changing an ingrained and playable OTT swing to a somewhat comfortable and playable "proper" in to out swing is basically the entire lifeblood of golf instruction. I mean if it wasn't about fixing that main issue - and ALL the minutia that goes with it - why would you need golf instruction? 

[enders.seb]

At your handicap, assuming he's teaching you fundamentally correct things, honestly there's no reason to think that you will get much worse before you get better. At our level you're likely going to be correcting some pretty big issues which should lead to pretty immediate improvement. The higher level the player the more incremental and difficult the changes are to make. For a mid handicap golfer with what sounds like an athletic background and a willingness to invest time you should honestly expect to get better fairly quickly.

[GLF4EVR]

About 4 months from hitting 63 and starting this season I am working on a swing change.  My home course I am usually in the upper 70's to low 80's.  Have the winter months to reflect back on the previous season.  I usually have a slight fade, however last year when I would approach the green & play the fade I would hit it straight.  So of course when I want it fairly straight, the fade would come into play.  Three holes that can lead to an OB shot.  Had a friend shoot some video a couple of times toward the end of last season.  Twice he got it when the ball was fading when I wanted it straight.  Could tell the right hip was blocking me out, so it resulted in a little outside in swing path.

 

So objective at the start of this season is to get the feel of getting my right hip going back as I start to come down from the top.  Past seasons I usually have the right arm in pretty tight, but the only club I would have the slight draw consistently was my 3 wood.  i have an upright, shallow swing path.  This season I have only been able to hit the range 3 times & the course twice.  Twice on the range before the first round.  The 2 rounds have been pathetic, but the process has light.  Last round gave myself several birdie opportunities.  Having shaggy greens with some gravel kind of hinders the putting right now.  I have been slowing my tempo down to work on the feel, so have been going a club up on what my normal yardage is.  

 

The first 2 times on the range was just the short irons with the vast majority of the 1st time being partial swings.  I wanted to go thru this process to try & show that a swing change is not overly difficult.  My opinion is it is the application of the change that can be difficult.  I would suggest to just work at keeping the right elbow in & try to keep it closer to the body than you currently are.  As most people have stated, the first 2 suggestions are easy.  From your description of the instructor, I would have no reason to doubt him.  You could even ask him is there is any specific drill or "thing" to work on for the third item on the list.

 

I will admit that right now on what I am doing, often it feels like I could fall over when taking a full swing.  However, when I keep the tempo down I can get the ball really close to where I actually am envisioning it.  So....work in progress.

[jlbos83]

Just my observations...

The OP is a decent golfer, but he went in for a lesson.  One would think that would be because he wanted to get better.  Which probably means changing something.

My personal experience, as a not good golfer (which may change how much it applies.)  A couple years ago I was a consistent 97-107 kind of golfer, nothing was changing.  I was an avid slicer, not always horrible, but that was the shot.  I went in for a series of lessons, and within a couple months (with some practice, but not crazy), I was not a slicer, could even hit a bit of a draw.  My index went from around 27 to 18 over the next year.  Something has broken over the last few months, so I am working again, but the point is I was able to make a pretty major change in a relatively short time.  I would think that a better golfer, with more club/body awareness could make a change more easily that I did.  My previous swing had many years behind it, it was well ingrained!

 

[DaveMc82]

On 4/14/2021 at 1:27 AM, 95124hacker said:

Do you trust the guy? A teacher with the wrong intentions for you can basically milk you for lesson after lesson, holding back immediate fixes long enough to keep you coming back for more... all the time counting the money you’ve spent on him. I’m sure they have to agree to some code of ethics but how enforceable is that?

 

Don’t get me wrong. I’m taking lessons myself but from a guy I’ve known for decades & completely trust. But I’ve also had lessons from one guy in particular that I know was just using me for steady cash flow.

There are more of the former out there than you’d be comfortable believing. I’m really sad to say it but I identified it in a previous instructor and witness it regularly at a range I use. 
 

If you get video feedback post lessons to use for reference including verbal cues, it really helps reduce the regression in between lessons. When I heard the guy I’ve seen for a while now say “I hate seeing students regress too far, that’s why I give continuous video feedback after every lesson” it said everything about him as an instructor. 
 

Bottom line is be very reflective post the initial stint of lessons and if it feels like there isn’t a journey with goals, the instructor is either poor or using you as a cash cow.