Had a lesson... I think he's right, but I'm not sure I want to be fixed

[Mych]

Had my first real lesson last week and found out some interesting things about my setup and swing, but now I'm having second thoughts about going through the process of fixing the flaws. I think he's correct that if I spent some time working on fixing those things I'd be successful, but I'm dreading the time and frustration it'll take to get there.  

 

Specs: 42yrs old "athletically overweight", pretty coordinated and able to achieve most positions/movements.  About a 10 capper, drive it around 270 with an occasional 300 in the right conditions. 150yd 9i, average short game and putting for a 10 cap, struggle some with course management because of 2 way miss. "Stock" shot is a fade. 

 

Instructor highlighted 3 initial priorities for me. 

1) Squaring clubface at setup (I set up fairly open)

2) Moving ball position further back in my stance with irons

3) Getting my transition/downswing to move inside to promote inside-out swing path and draw spin

 

Has anyone had second thoughts about going through with lessons/changes, even if they think the instructor is correct? Did you make the change or stick with your swing? Any regrets? Results?

[trilerian]

19 minutes ago, Mych said:

Had my first real lesson last week and found out some interesting things about my setup and swing, but now I'm having second thoughts about going through the process of fixing the flaws. I think he's correct that if I spent some time working on fixing those things I'd be successful, but I'm dreading the time and frustration it'll take to get there.  

 

Specs: 42yrs old "athletically overweight", pretty coordinated and able to achieve most positions/movements.  About a 10 capper, drive it around 270 with an occasional 300 in the right conditions. 150yd 9i, average short game and putting for a 10 cap, struggle some with course management because of 2 way miss. "Stock" shot is a fade. 

 

Instructor highlighted 3 initial priorities for me. 

1) Squaring clubface at setup (I set up fairly open)

2) Moving ball position further back in my stance with irons

3) Getting my transition/downswing to move inside to promote inside-out swing path and draw spin

 

Has anyone had second thoughts about going through with lessons/changes, even if they think the instructor is correct? Did you make the change or stick with your swing? Any regrets? Results?

Well, two of your changes listed are setup changes, so they don't require a swing change.  Learning to swing from the inside though can be difficult and can take you down a rabbit hole of swing faults that cause the outside in swing.  But, generally speaking for lessons, I am open to what the instructor tells me to do, with the exception that if physically hurts to do so.  Or that practice brings on physical issues.  For example, I had a SnT instructor once, was really good and produced great results, but it killed my lead knee.  Took a couple of  years for it to stop hurting on a regular basis and still acts up by the end of a walking round.  Also, if the new swing causes a loss of distance, I will ditch it pretty fast.

[Superbrit]

26 minutes ago, Mych said:

Had my first real lesson last week and found out some interesting things about my setup and swing, but now I'm having second thoughts about going through the process of fixing the flaws. I think he's correct that if I spent some time working on fixing those things I'd be successful, but I'm dreading the time and frustration it'll take to get there.  

 

Specs: 42yrs old "athletically overweight", pretty coordinated and able to achieve most positions/movements.  About a 10 capper, drive it around 270 with an occasional 300 in the right conditions. 150yd 9i, average short game and putting for a 10 cap, struggle some with course management because of 2 way miss. "Stock" shot is a fade. 

 

Instructor highlighted 3 initial priorities for me. 

1) Squaring clubface at setup (I set up fairly open)

2) Moving ball position further back in my stance with irons

3) Getting my transition/downswing to move inside to promote inside-out swing path and draw spin

 

Has anyone had second thoughts about going through with lessons/changes, even if they think the instructor is correct? Did you make the change or stick with your swing? Any regrets? Results?

As the poster above says 2 of them are set up only, i would definitely work on them, they would probably help

 

Regarding a swing change, well in my opinion a swing change is probably the hardest thing to do in golf, your basically going against your instincts of what to do, so unless your willing to work really hard at it and persist with it, i wouldn't bother, if your enjoying golf as it is then just enjoy playing, although going to an instructor would suggest your not?

[MrJones]

I'm wondering, did you tell him that you wanted to change to a particular shot shape or did he just view your swing and then make these recommendations?

[jholz]

Like others have said, the first two seem like something that you could integrate into your swing fairly easily. Just commit to going to the range for a bit and working on those specific things. 

 

But, the swing path change is going to be a major overhaul. With that, you need to make a decision whether you want to try to play through that transition or not. When I make big changes to my swing, I commit to not playing for awhile. I just go to the range and practice. The last time I made a major overhaul, I took a full year away from play on the course. 

 

Ultimately, it's about what you want. Do you want to play? Or do you want to play better?

[Hilts1969]

44 minutes ago, Mych said:

Had my first real lesson last week and found out some interesting things about my setup and swing, but now I'm having second thoughts about going through the process of fixing the flaws. I think he's correct that if I spent some time working on fixing those things I'd be successful, but I'm dreading the time and frustration it'll take to get there.  

 

Specs: 42yrs old "athletically overweight", pretty coordinated and able to achieve most positions/movements.  About a 10 capper, drive it around 270 with an occasional 300 in the right conditions. 150yd 9i, average short game and putting for a 10 cap, struggle some with course management because of 2 way miss. "Stock" shot is a fade. 

 

Instructor highlighted 3 initial priorities for me. 

1) Squaring clubface at setup (I set up fairly open)

2) Moving ball position further back in my stance with irons

3) Getting my transition/downswing to move inside to promote inside-out swing path and draw spin

 

Has anyone had second thoughts about going through with lessons/changes, even if they think the instructor is correct? Did you make the change or stick with your swing? Any regrets? Results?

 

If you’re happy being a 10 capper then don’t, if you’re not then do. Pretty straightforward. I play with guys who are happy to just enjoy the game with the swing they have. I’m a basket case so will forever be searching. We are at similar levels but I can’t accept wild inconsistencies in my play.

 

The set up changes are a small thing. Swing from the inside is too broad of an intention to comment on tbh.

[MattM97]

I had an instructor do a setup change with me and it made a huge difference and very simple to do honestly. Now if you don't want to that's all on you but it's a 2 second reminds when setting up for your shot. 

[farmer]

I took lessons from a pro 50 years ago.  He preached about grip and setup.  Those are done while standing still, should be perfect every time.

[GrandStranded]

GAP.... correct grip, alignment and posture are things every golfer should monitor, and be aware of. They are the foundation of a good golf swing.

Ball position is player dependent, and can vary slightly for each player or said player can vary it depending on the shot he wants to hit.

Swing path, unless extreme in either direction becomes part of a player’s DNA after a while. It can be changed, but I’m a believer in the “swing your swing” theory for those people who’ve been playing a long time.

[Mych]

3 hours ago, Superbrit said:

As the poster above says 2 of them are set up only, i would definitely work on them, they would probably help

 

Regarding a swing change, well in my opinion a swing change is probably the hardest thing to do in golf, your basically going against your instincts of what to do, so unless your willing to work really hard at it and persist with it, i wouldn't bother, if your enjoying golf as it is then just enjoy playing, although going to an instructor would suggest your not?

 

I'm relatively happy with my swing, but me and a buddy decided to do a lesson together so that we could both hear/see what the instructor told the other person and help each other watch for flaws and bad habits. I think my buddy is way more sold on changing his swing than I am.

 

I tend to agree about the setup changes, especially after really seeing how open my club face was at set up. I think I use a few different non-ideal actions to enable a somewhat reliable shot. My ball position and open face promote a high fade without much risk of fat shots, so my concern is that making those two changes would almost force a swing change because I'll lose the fade. If the result is a straight shot, then I'm on board. If the result is fat smothered hooks because I haven't figured out how to swing inside-out, then I won't be able to benefit from the ball position and more closed face until the path change is made.  It's like changing the color of one appliance in the kitchen.... kicks off a full remodel. 

 

3 hours ago, MrJones said:

I'm wondering, did you tell him that you wanted to change to a particular shot shape or did he just view your swing and then make these recommendations?

 

No, I didn't tell him that I wanted a specific shot. I'm strong enough to get away with a fade, even if I'm giving up about a club in distance. With my irons I'm not chasing distance, I'm looking for control and the ability to hit more GIR's. I think he has a specific shot shape that he teaches (slight draw), and then he teaches adjustments to hit a fade when desired so I'm kinda working backwards from his normal methods. He works with some pretty good local golfers and comes highly recommended (and isn't very expensive), so me and a buddy did a 1st lesson just to see what flaws he could see that we might not.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Mych

[driveandputtmachine]

I will say switching from a fade, to a draw or draw to a fade are some of the biggest changes in the five inches between your ears to make.

 

You've spent years and years knowing to aim left and watch the ball come back to the right, and now he is working you towards aiming right and making the ball move left, that can be a giant cluster eff for a lot of people.  Not everyone can easily make this change.

 

My preferred teaching method is consistency, if what the teacher is teaching me isn't either getting me in a better impact position or making get into the better impact position more often I am out.  I could care less exactly what a grip looks like or the top of the swing looks like or the after impact swing looks like.  The only time those matter are when those make your impact position better or more consistent.  I want to consistently make a fade to straight swing for a stock shot.  Whatever he or she is teaching me needs to get me into an impact position to produce this more often.

[wagolfer7]

1 hour ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

If you’re happy being a 10 capper then don’t, if you’re not then do. Pretty straightforward. I play with guys who are happy to just enjoy the game with the swing they have. I’m a basket case so will forever be searching. We are at similar levels but I can’t accept wild inconsistencies in my play.

 

The set up changes are a small thing. Swing from the inside is too broad of an intention to comment on tbh.

 

This pretty much sums it up.  

 

The teacher in my opinion is not promoting a draw.  Any solid ball striker delivers the club from an inside position.  Look at the PGA and the money delivery position they like showing now.  And no they don't all hit draws.  You can hit a fade coming from the inside.  As well as hit a draw.  Since you are a fade player already, it's easier to try to get you hit a draw while learning to swing from the inside, or else you'd probably hit every ball off the planet to the right for awhile.  A lot of amateurs don't realize that you can swing inside to out, or inside to inside.  Outside to in is a power leak.   

 

@Hilts1969is correct, that if your happy where you are, swing your swing.  If you ever want to see how good you can get, you won't be able to do it without hitting from the inside.  As others have said, it's a major change and will take practice and grinding through.  

[enders.seb]

13 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

This pretty much sums it up.  

 

The teacher in my opinion is not promoting a draw.  Any solid ball striker delivers the club from an inside position.  Look at the PGA and the money delivery position they like showing now.  And no they don't all hit draws.  You can hit a fade coming from the inside.  As well as hit a draw.  Since you are a fade player already, it's easier to try to get you hit a draw while learning to swing from the inside, or else you'd probably hit every ball off the planet to the right for awhile.  A lot of amateurs don't realize that you can swing inside to out, or inside to inside.  Outside to in is a power leak.   

 

@Hilts1969is correct, that if your happy where you are, swing your swing.  If you ever want to see how good you can get, you won't be able to do it without hitting from the inside.  As others have said, it's a major change and will take practice and grinding through.  

 

Yeah agree with this. Swinging from the outside just isn't good. If you're happy with how you're hitting the ball then yeah don't do anything but assuming you took the lesson because you want to get better then hitting from the inside, regardless of shot shape, will make you better. You could also improve your scores through strategy, short game, etc but for ball striking to improve you're going to need to make some changes. That takes practice, like anything else.

[naval2006]

If you’re  relatively happy with your swing you should check wether your two way miss makes it less happy or you can live with it and still score. If you do, you shouldn’t care about lessons. 

 

If someone wants to play better golf in general the player needs to eliminate the two way misses for a starter. 

[Krt22]

23 minutes ago, enders.seb said:

 

Yeah agree with this. Swinging from the outside just isn't good. If you're happy with how you're hitting the ball then yeah don't do anything but assuming you took the lesson because you want to get better then hitting from the inside, regardless of shot shape, will make you better. You could also improve your scores through strategy, short game, etc but for ball striking to improve you're going to need to make some changes. That takes practice, like anything else.

I would not say this is 100% true, how much from the outside matters. Tons of touring pros hit a fade almost exclusively with a very moderate out to in path, especially with the longer clubs. A fade being inherently bad is a huge misnomer and responsible for ruining a lot of decent swings IMHO

 

OP..I would ask what your currently ball position is. Unless you are playing irons well forward in your stance, moving it back is a Band-Aid IMHO. "Swing from the inside" is a generic term as well, as there is a right way and wrong way to accomplish that. When I am taking a lesson, I would want to know what is the exact fault and who does it manifest itself later on in terms of inconsistency

[enders.seb]

8 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

I would not say this is 100% true, how much from the outside matters. Tons of touring pros hit a fade almost exclusively with a very moderate out to in path, especially with the longer clubs. A fade being inherently bad is a huge misnomer and responsible for ruining a lot of decent swings IMHO

 

OP..I would ask what your currently ball position is. Unless you are playing irons well forward in your stance, moving it back is a Band-Aid IMHO. "Swing from the inside" is a generic term as well, as there is a right way and wrong way to accomplish that. When I am taking a lesson, I would want to know what is the exact fault and who does it manifest itself later on in terms of inconsistency

 

Yeah sorry I should've been more clear. You'll see slightly out to in path numbers, but we have to remember that those are relative to the target line, not the player.  I've attached Morikawa, who basically only hits fades, right before impact. At no point is his clubhead coming from the outside of the ball. Relative to himself he's still coming from the inside. He just aims a little left of his target and let's the face stay just open enough to get the ball to fade 

Edited April 13, 2021 by enders.seb

[wagolfer7]

5 minutes ago, enders.seb said:

 

Yeah sorry I should've been more clear. You'll see slightly out to in path numbers, but we have to remember that those are relative to the target line, not the player.  I've attached Morikawa, who basically only hits fades, right before impact. At no point is his clubhead coming from the outside of the ball. Relative to himself he's still coming from the inside. He just aims a little left of his target and let's the face stay just open enough to get the ball to fade 

 

This exactly.  Hitting from the inside is key.

[Krt22]

6 minutes ago, enders.seb said:

 

Yeah sorry I should've been more clear. You'll see slightly out to in path numbers, but we have to remember that those are relative to the target line, not the player.  I've attached Morikawa, who basically only hits fades, right before impact. At no point is his clubhead coming from the outside of the ball. Relative to himself he's still coming from the inside. He just aims a little left of his target and let's the face stay just open enough to get the ball to fade 

Yes, morikawa almost hits a push fade with a very shallow approach, but there are still plenty of guys who are a bit steeper and play more of a pull fade. 1-2 degrees out to in isn't going to show up in a 2D still since it can't really show how the club is moving along it's arch. This is much different than a steep over the top chop, which is why I said magnitude is import. 

[enders.seb]

3 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Yes, morikawa almost hits a push fade with a very shallow approach, but there are still plenty of guys who are a bit steeper and play more of a pull fade. 1-2 degrees out to in isn't going to show up in a 2D still since it can't really show how the club is moving along it's arch. This is much different than a steep over the top chop, which is why I said magnitude is import. 

 

Yeah for sure. DJ is probably on the steeper side. I think we agree that generally coming more from the inside and being shallow is preferable to the steep chop, so learning to be more inside (not necessarily actually inside, just more if you're very outside) is something a majority of amateur golfers could benefit from. Fades aren't bad at all, it's how you fade it that matters

Edited April 13, 2021 by enders.seb

[Krt22]

12 minutes ago, enders.seb said:

 

Yeah for sure. DJ is probably on the steeper side. I think we agree that generally coming more from the inside and being shallow is preferable to the steep chop, so learning to be more inside (not necessarily actually inside, just more if you're very outside) is something a majority of amateur golfers could benefit from. Fades aren't bad at all, it's how you fade it that matters

Exactly. With the biggest difference being how elite ball strikers manage the shaft pitch early. If you shallow the shaft early and manage the face, you can move it either direction largely with setup and ball position. 

 

Which is mostly why I asked about the OPs current ball position. Playing the ball back in the stance is certainly a way to help promote a draw, but largely a bandaid approach for those who get too steep early

[Mych]

28 minutes ago, enders.seb said:

 

Yeah for sure. DJ is probably on the steeper side. I think we agree that generally coming more from the inside and being shallow is preferable to the steep chop, so learning to be more inside (not necessarily actually inside, just more if you're very outside) is something a majority of amateur golfers could benefit from. Fades aren't bad at all, it's how you fade it that matters

 

Fair point, and that's why I said I think he's right. I've watched a bajillion videos about how to come from the inside and it feels like I am, but somehow I don't. I'm not surprised that it was something he identified... in fact I would have questioned it more if he didn't suggest changing that. 

 

Interesting that I may be misinterpreting the end goal (specific shot shape vs correct path). That could definitely help change my outlook a bit.  I have also been doing some setup work with a mirror and think I've isolated a key that is contributing to my flaws. When I set up, my head is tilted right (away from target) more than I ever realized, with my eye level tilted (left higher than right). I seem to align the clubface perpendicular to the level of my eyes, which makes open look square. When I'm standing straight up and looking straight down, the "correct" square looks square, but when I set up with both hands on the club, that looks very closed. I also think I'm choosing a ball position perpendicular to my tilted eye level, which places it forward of the suggested ball position. I definitely need to do more work to test that theory, but it could help me get to a "fix" for the setup issues quicker if that ends up being the root cause. Whether it contributes to the path issue is TBD, I guess I'll see what happens after I adjust the setup.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Mych

[karl1111]

38 minutes ago, enders.seb said:

 

Yeah for sure. DJ is probably on the steeper side. I think we agree that generally coming more from the inside and being shallow is preferable to the steep chop, so learning to be more inside (not necessarily actually inside, just more if you're very outside) is something a majority of amateur golfers could benefit from. Fades aren't bad at all, it's how you fade it that matters

Could you explain why coming from the inside is inherently better than outside? And if we're talking iron play, why's being shallow better? 

 

It's everywhere in modern instruction and i don't quite understand it. 

[enders.seb]

8 minutes ago, karl1111 said:

Could you explain why coming from the inside is inherently better than outside? And if we're talking iron play, why's being shallow better? 

 

It's everywhere in modern instruction and i don't quite understand it. 

 

Inherently is probably the wrong word. I'm not an instructor and I'd defer to @MonteScheinblum or others more qualified than me on this, but the short answer is the moves you need to make to shallow the club in transition and attack the ball more from the inside (more is the key word here, can still be slightly outside) will lead, all things equal, to better dynamic loft and a more stable club face. You'll hit the ball more efficiently (better dynamic loft = more distance) and deliver a more consistent face, which will also improve your dispersion. If you want an example of what steep does to dispersion, check out how accurate Phil Mickelson is off the tee. He's by all accounts a golf genius, and even his talent isn't enough to keep him from often hitting it off the planet. Doesn't mean you need to do extreme shallowing moves like Wolff or something, but you're better off learning how to shallow the club slightly in transition. Monte's No Turn Cast series is an excellent way to learn how to do that, but like you said you can find stuff on shallowing all over the internet

Edited April 13, 2021 by enders.seb

[jlbos83]

7 minutes ago, karl1111 said:

Could you explain why coming from the inside is inherently better than outside? And if we're talking iron play, why's being shallow better? 

 

It's everywhere in modern instruction and i don't quite understand it. 

I am no expert, and know very little.  But, if you come in steep, your margin for error is much less than if you come in shallow.  If you hit a little fat on the steep swing, you dig a trench, thin you hit a bullet.  Shallow, a little fat or thin is still "serviceable".  Someone with more knowledge is welcome to point out the error of my ways!

[wagolfer7]

2 hours ago, karl1111 said:

Could you explain why coming from the inside is inherently better than outside? And if we're talking iron play, why's being shallow better? 

 

It's everywhere in modern instruction and i don't quite understand it. 

 

I'm no expert and don't get into all the details like most on here.  But have you ever heard "crack the whip" or you need to "let the club release".  In my opinion, all of that stuff relates back to the fact you want to swing in an arc.  And if you can understand that the ball is the widest point of the arc, then you will "feel" the club snap through the impact zone.  All this talk of finishing "low and left" and "shallowing the club", you need to hit it from the inside.  Most people imagine swinging inside, as meaning inside to out - push draws.   You can do that, but you can also go from inside to inside.  Again I don't know the science behind it.  But you can feel it in your body - it's more powerful and more consistent.  

 

  

[Zitlow]

5 hours ago, karl1111 said:

Could you explain why coming from the inside is inherently better than outside? And if we're talking iron play, why's being shallow better? 

 

It's everywhere in modern instruction and i don't quite understand it. 

 

Think of twirling a ball on a string, the ball is trying to pull (escape force) away from you not into you. 

 

Take a practice swing and as you start down allow your right hand to fall off the club. Where does the club want to go? 

 

Shallowing is a reaction not an action, the how's and whys are a whole discussion in itself. 

[95124hacker]

Do you trust the guy? A teacher with the wrong intentions for you can basically milk you for lesson after lesson, holding back immediate fixes long enough to keep you coming back for more... all the time counting the money you’ve spent on him. I’m sure they have to agree to some code of ethics but how enforceable is that?

 

Don’t get me wrong. I’m taking lessons myself but from a guy I’ve known for decades & completely trust. But I’ve also had lessons from one guy in particular that I know was just using me for steady cash flow.

Edited April 14, 2021 by 95124hacker

[naval2006]

A lot of amateurs think they hit from the outside and they’ll produce a fade. Nothing further from the truth. If you don’t get some little Morikawa (picture) motion it’s just hammering it right. One of my weekly buddies hits those 45 degree drives all the time and I suffer for him. He doesn’t understand yet that he needs to come at least a little from behind to straighten his slice.  And I mean pattern, not how to achieve it because different players can do it different ways. 

[David69]

OP, your talking about approximately a 2 year fix with constant practice, intermittent lessons, much video, and a game that will get much worse before it gets better. Once you go down that rabbit hole of “swinging like the pros” there will be a point of no return where your old swing with all the flaws will be gone and your new swing will just suck, but get progressively better over the long haul. Or you could be a secret golf miracle that instantly is able to fix your swing in a month with a simple Monte Video. Lots of those here on this forum. Probably not though. 
 

How much time are you willing to dedicate to relearning your bodies swing pattern? Oh, and then you need to relearn the weight shift, the back turn, the grip, the bowed to flat wrist, the proper release and all of that minutia as well. It is never a simple fix with this ridiculous sport. You fix one thing and throw five things you thought you knew out of whack. 
 

If you are playing to a 10 cap but hitting technically incorrect OTT, it will likely take you 2 years to get back to a 10 cap but hitting it comfortably on the course with a completely new but correct inside swing path.
 

Guess how I know.... God speed. 

[Krt22]

9 hours ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

I'm no expert and don't get into all the details like most on here.  But have you ever heard "crack the whip" or you need to "let the club release".  In my opinion, all of that stuff relates back to the fact you want to swing in an arc.  And if you can understand that the ball is the widest point of the arc, then you will "feel" the club snap through the impact zone.  All this talk of finishing "low and left" and "shallowing the club", you need to hit it from the inside.  Most people imagine swinging inside, as meaning inside to out - push draws.   You can do that, but you can also go from inside to inside.  Again I don't know the science behind it.  But you can feel it in your body - it's more powerful and more consistent.  

 

  

Two different things here, swing direction and path (which are linked by angle of attack). Most people think you need swing direction to point well to the right in order to "hit from the inside" and hit a draw, but the "inside out" path is largely taken care of my the fact that you are hitting the ball as the club travels down and out, assuming low point is in front of the ball as shown here. As the club gets longer and ball position moves forward, path starts to shift more left due to where you are hitting the ball relative to the arc. Many people turn into dirty hookers by shifting their swing direction too far to the right, using old sayings like swing to right field and hit the inside quadrant of the ball.