Green-reading books likely gone from the tour next season

[Titleist99]

2 hours ago, Creedo77 said:

In that quote (from July) those were allowed but not any longer. 
 

Trackman is still allowed on the range and for practice rounds 

 

The ban is based on all things green related 

You're correct but i can guarantee you the range is next in limiting electronic devices because Phil and Bryson bring three to four every time they practice on the range..... the look is terrible. i started a thread awhile back on the tour limiting electronic devices and was laughed off the board.... it has begun. IMO

Edited November 2, 2021 by Titleist99

[Creedo77]

7 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

You're correct but i can guarantee you the range is next in limiting electronic devices because Phil and Bryson bring three to four every time they practice on the range..... the look is terrible. i started a thread awhile back on the tour limiting electronic devices and was laugh off the board.... it has begun. IMO

Can’t see the tour banning them. There are bigger issues at this point than what they’re using on the range. 
 

Im all for banning green books but they aren’t 100% correct and can be difficult to use/read. 

[Aaronwilson_95]

1 hour ago, Creedo77 said:

Can’t see the tour banning them. There are bigger issues at this point than what they’re using on the range. 
 

Im all for banning green books but they aren’t 100% correct and can be difficult to use/read. 

this is the part where the level on practice green gets confusing 

[Creedo77]

18 minutes ago, Aaronwilson_95 said:

this is the part where the level on practice green gets confusing 

Interesting, I guess I missed that part 

 

so yeah that puts an end to all of them 

 

surprised at this point they haven’t banned the compass 

[CasualLie]

So no more of this?

 

 

 

When I saw this, it was a game changer.  I have the super detailed green books from PuttView for a few of my regular courses.  At first I just used them to do a quick check on overall slope where the green looks flat / tricky.  I am ok on the obvious slopes, but the subtle ones you can't see that well and only know from memory are the toughest.  So the book was a quick confirmation.  

 

Then I discovered the concept of knowing percentage of slope and stimp gave you a pretty precise distance of break.  Wow.   The roll maps are very, very helpful.  It is a bit like "cheating"....but so are many other things in golf - within the rule, but the tech and advancements are like modern day cheat codes.

 

I don't see the new rules changing much.  The pros will just make notes on the percent slopes in different areas of the green and calculate from there.  How they got the percent slopes is questionable, but impossible to prove.

[Isaac_Newton]

1 hour ago, CasualLie said:

So no more of this?

 

 

 

When I saw this, it was a game changer.  I have the super detailed green books from PuttView for a few of my regular courses.  At first I just used them to do a quick check on overall slope where the green looks flat / tricky.  I am ok on the obvious slopes, but the subtle ones you can't see that well and only know from memory are the toughest.  So the book was a quick confirmation.  

 

Then I discovered the concept of knowing percentage of slope and stimp gave you a pretty precise distance of break.  Wow.   The roll maps are very, very helpful.  It is a bit like "cheating"....but so are many other things in golf - within the rule, but the tech and advancements are like modern day cheat codes.

 

I don't see the new rules changing much.  The pros will just make notes on the percent slopes in different areas of the green and calculate from there.  How they got the percent slopes is questionable, but impossible to prove.

They will mostly use aim point. Which will take just as long. 

[Jifmoli]

1 hour ago, CasualLie said:

Then I discovered the concept of knowing percentage of slope and stimp gave you a pretty precise distance of break.  Wow.   The roll maps are very, very helpful.  It is a bit like "cheating"....but so are many other things in golf - within the rule, but the tech and advancements are like modern day cheat codes.

Interesting to read how it works, cheers, but for me the reason why it should be banned, certainly for pros. Taking a lot of the skill away. 

 

Never used one, never want to either. Am not a great putter by any means, but want to do it without these tools. Similar to caddies - only use them to watch where my ball is going, as too often they go wayward lol! But don't want them to advice me on club choice or putting line etc.

[Aaronwilson_95]

1 hour ago, Creedo77 said:

Interesting, I guess I missed that part 

 

so yeah that puts an end to all of them 

 

surprised at this point they haven’t banned the compass 

I don’t understand how you can ban something from practice facilities & not the official 18 holes.

 

 

[Holy Moses]

6 minutes ago, Aaronwilson_95 said:

I don’t understand how you can ban something from practice facilities & not the official 18 holes.

 

 

They already have with range finders

[Holy Moses]

8 hours ago, Mustard_Tiger said:

 

 

You can bet that Patrick Reed will be doing that.

Technically, the only marks you can put on the green reading books are those that you have experienced rolling a ball on the actual green. Definitely tough to enforce. Just give everyone an approved yardage book with a few basic ridge lines in the green and nothing else can be hand-written inside the green portion of the book. 

[Aaronwilson_95]

30 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

They already have with range finders

Huhhhh 

 

you can use range finders during practice rounds

 

 

whag I’m talking about is using a level on a practice putting green which is going to be banned . That’s the equivalent of banning a laser range finder from telling you how far the third basket in the range is. Just seems silly to me that they are going to ban those things from practice facilities . I can understand the golf course itself but not the practice facilities 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Aaronwilson_95

[ivygynonc]

On 6/16/2021 at 12:48 PM, MPAndreassi said:

If this means watching Bryson struggle on the greens like he did at Augusta this year it has my vote. I’ll still keep mine though. 

I don't care which pro actually 'struggles' but I do think reading a putt, hitting it on the proper line, apexing it at the appropriate spot, reading grain, speed, etc, is very much a skill that is just like having the skill to generate 6-9 mph more club head speed.  it should be honored as such.  

 

If I swing at 110mph, I should not get a large fan blowing downwind to hit my tee shots to aid in my distance to compete with guys built stronger than myself.  

 

Jordan reads greens prob better than anyone.  He lost a lot of his game trying to hit it further due to not having the 'downwind fan' as an aid.  The green reading books are a down wind fan of sorts.  

 

I applaud the ban for that fact alone.  Couldn't care less about pace of play, that is a rule that is not enforced.  Enforce it and the conversation about pace of play is over.  

 

[Holy Moses]

1 hour ago, Aaronwilson_95 said:

Huhhhh 

 

you can use range finders during practice rounds

 

 

whag I’m talking about is using a level on a practice putting green which is going to be banned . That’s the equivalent of banning a laser range finder from telling you how far the third basket in the range is. Just seems silly to me that they are going to ban those things from practice facilities . I can understand the golf course itself but not the practice facilities 

Oops, read your post wrong

[Aaronwilson_95]

8 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

Oops, read your post wrong

No worries. I can understand the course but limiting how guts can practice seems shaky at best

[b.helts]

1 hour ago, Aaronwilson_95 said:

No worries. I can understand the course but limiting how guts can practice seems shaky at best

I’m not saying I disagree because I’m not sure that I do. But for clarity, why is that “shaky at best”?

[Aaronwilson_95]

6 minutes ago, b.helts said:

I’m not saying I disagree because I’m not sure that I do. But for clarity, why is that “shaky at best”?

I mean how can you tell a guy this is how you can practice and can’t . That’s be like banning training aids . 
 

it’s the practice facility as long as you aren’t doing damage how are you (the tour ) to say how I can or can’t practice as long as I’m not damaging surfaces . It would be like telling guys they can’t use a metronome that’s an electronic device or blast motion 

[b.helts]

6 minutes ago, Aaronwilson_95 said:

I mean how can you tell a guy this is how you can practice and can’t . That’s be like banning training aids . 
 

it’s the practice facility as long as you aren’t doing damage how are you (the tour ) to say how I can or can’t practice as long as I’m not damaging surfaces . It would be like telling guys they can’t use a metronome that’s an electronic device or blast motion 

I understand the argument and I appreciate you entertaining my question(s).

 

I don’t see it as telling a guy how to practice or how not to practice. They are banning devices not how they practice. 
 

But as I said I can see it both ways. If they start banning training aids I’ll be on board though I suspect they won’t. I don’t see the two as equitable. 

[Aaronwilson_95]

If you’re using A level to acclimate to the conditions That’s training . For example I’ll use my level to warm up I’ll find a 2 percent putt so I can feel 2% , then I will find where I have to sim for 2 percent . That’s how aim  point express taught me to normalize to the conditions we are facing at each event. 
 

you can do the whole thing through trial and error as well I suppose but the machine that rolls the ball (perfect putter will be allowed because it’s not electronic . Just seems silly to me to ban it on practice facilities 

 

Edit 

or your instructor wants to find a flat putt so they can work on your stroke. They’ll find a putt with 0% slope even if that’s not how you read greens 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Aaronwilson_95

[b.helts]

1 minute ago, Aaronwilson_95 said:

If you’re using A level to acclimate to the conditions That’s training . For example I’ll use my level to warm up I’ll find a 2 percent putt so I can feel 2% , then I will find where I have to sim for 2 percent . That’s how aim  point express taught me to normalize to the conditions we are facing at each event. 
 

you can do the whole thing through trial and error as well I suppose but the machine that rolls the ball (perfect putter will be allowed because it’s not electronic . Just seems silly to me to ban it on practice facilities 

I didn’t think about aimpoint. But anyone can calibrate their feels at home anytime. Just can’t do it on the tournament practice facilities. I just don’t see it as a big deal. It could be a slippery slope with other practice aids or routines, but I just don’t see it happening that way. 

[Mustard_Tiger]

If they can figure out how to ban Aim Point, they will.

[Aaronwilson_95]

7 hours ago, Mustard_Tiger said:

If they can figure out how to ban Aim Point, they will.

Why it’s using your feet to read geeens.

[bladehunter]

On 11/2/2021 at 8:12 PM, Aaronwilson_95 said:

this is the part where the level on practice green gets confusing 

So that cuts out the aimpoint guys no ? 
 

 

edit-  I see that it’s already being discussed.    What I meant was it will stop guys from calibrating on the  actual greens they’re playing. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by bladehunter

[b.helts]

6 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

So that cuts out the aimpoint guys no ? 
 

 

edit-  I see that it’s already being discussed.    What I meant was it will stop guys from calibrating on the  actual greens they’re playing. 

it will keep them from calibrating with a level, yes. They are welcome to feel the ground, roll a putt and calibrate using the results. 

[bladehunter]

7 minutes ago, b.helts said:

it will keep them from calibrating with a level, yes. They are welcome to feel the ground, roll a putt and calibrate using the results. 

Right.  
 

mind you I’m not arguing FOR aimpoint at this point.  Although I am studying it ( newly ).  I say this because I have extremist opinions on equipment in general.  I’d outlaw trackman , aimpoint , mallet putters, drivers larger than 320cc , graphite shafts , and multi pieced irons.  Then I’d go at armlock , broomstick and hybrids.  😂

 

 

but.  For aimpoint to work properly I think it’s key to gauge the greens you’re playing on.  As in matching up the speed to the percent slope your feet feel. Doing this includes a check of the actual slope with a level. So you’re not wrong. But not entirely correct.  It is taking something away.  Even if it’s a placebo of the mind. 

[Titleist99]

10 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Right.  
 

mind you I’m not arguing FOR aimpoint at this point.  Although I am studying it ( newly ).  I say this because I have extremist opinions on equipment in general.  I’d outlaw trackman , aimpoint , mallet putters, drivers larger than 320cc , graphite shafts , and multi pieced irons.  Then I’d go at armlock , broomstick and hybrids.  😂

 

 

but.  For aimpoint to work properly I think it’s key to gauge the greens you’re playing on.  As in matching up the speed to the percent slope your feet feel. Doing this includes a check of the actual slope with a level. So you’re not wrong. But not entirely correct.  It is taking something away.  Even if it’s a placebo of the mind. 

Somehow I think OL" Tom Morris is rolling over, agreeing with you as well, saying "The game wasn't meant to be played that way" (greens books, electronics, etc..)

You'd think that all the rollback people would want to go back to a time of innocence.....LOL! Just kidding.... 

[b.helts]

35 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Right.  
 

mind you I’m not arguing FOR aimpoint at this point.  Although I am studying it ( newly ).  I say this because I have extremist opinions on equipment in general.  I’d outlaw trackman , aimpoint , mallet putters, drivers larger than 320cc , graphite shafts , and multi pieced irons.  Then I’d go at armlock , broomstick and hybrids.  😂

 

 

but.  For aimpoint to work properly I think it’s key to gauge the greens you’re playing on.  As in matching up the speed to the percent slope your feet feel. Doing this includes a check of the actual slope with a level. So you’re not wrong. But not entirely correct.  It is taking something away.  Even if it’s a placebo of the mind. 

Im not sure how I’m “not wrong. But not entirely correct”? What am I not entirely correct about?

 

I’ve said before and nothing’s changed, I don’t much care what the rules are. Whatever they are I will follow them. I have opinions but they aren’t strongly held opinions. Nothing I’d get worked up about. 
 

Im a hit it, find it, hit it again person. I’ve never used aimpoint and I don’t care if you use a level to calibrate your feet or you use Monte’s voodoo putting. I just try to hit every shot the best that I can, every time. 
 

So I’m pretty sure I didn’t editorialize or opine on anything. How can I get facts “not entirely correct”?

[bladehunter]

25 minutes ago, b.helts said:

Im not sure how I’m “not wrong. But not entirely correct”? What am I not entirely correct about?

 

I’ve said before and nothing’s changed, I don’t much care what the rules are. Whatever they are I will follow them. I have opinions but they aren’t strongly held opinions. Nothing I’d get worked up about. 
 

Im a hit it, find it, hit it again person. I’ve never used aimpoint and I don’t care if you use a level to calibrate your feet or you use Monte’s voodoo putting. I just try to hit every shot the best that I can, every time. 
 

So I’m pretty sure I didn’t editorialize or opine on anything. How can I get facts “not entirely correct”?

Well by saying that you can “ just calibrate without the one constant that the method includes “ (paraphrasing ) you're saying that it isn’t taking anything from those who use the method. But to them.  It is.  I’m not a convert yet.  So I can see both sides.  I think a lot of the method is calculated guessing.  But you’re making it more guess than calc by taking the measuring device away.  
 

every green is different.  So calibrating to one green won’t always or often translate to another.  Speed is a main component.   As is with any putt.  They’re measuring speed , slope and applying a visual measurement.    It’s not just guessing with your feet. You have to have the known measurements first to be able to make that guess-measurement with the feet. 
 

Flip it around. If it doesn’t matter , why ban it ? 
 

the way that you’re both correct and wrong is that to the hard core user. It matters a great deal.  The Adam Scott’s of the world just got a curveball.  To the brooks keopka it DJ type players.  They only use it for help whne they can’t see what it does.  They’re not really calibrating for every putt like others are.  So some players it won’t matter. To the disciples it will absolutely matter.  A lot.  

[b.helts]

1 minute ago, bladehunter said:

Well by saying that you can “ just calibrate without the one constant that the method includes “ (paraphrasing ) you're saying that it isn’t taking anything from those who use the method. But to them.  It is.  I’m not a convert yet.  So I can see both sides.  I think a lot of the method is calculated guessing.  But you’re making it more guess than calc by taking the measuring device away.  
 

every green is different.  So calibrating to one green won’t always or often translate to another.  Speed is a main component.   As is with any putt.  They’re measuring speed , slope and applying a visual measurement.    It’s not just guessing with your feet. You have to have the known measurements first to be able to make that guess-measurement with the feet. 
 

Flip it around. If it doesn’t matter , why ban it ? 
 

the way that you’re both correct and wrong is that to the hard core user. It matters a great deal.  The Adam Scott’s of the world just got a curveball.  To the brooks keopka it DJ type players.  They only use it for help whne they can’t see what it does.  They’re not really calibrating for every putt like others are.  So some players it won’t matter. To the disciples it will absolutely matter.  A lot.  

 

 

I simply stated what they could do. I did not say it would be equally effective nor did I say it would not.

 

That's you assuming that's what I'm saying. 

[bladehunter]

58 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Somehow I think OL" Tom Morris is rolling over, agreeing with you as well, saying "The game wasn't meant to be played that way" (greens books, electronics, etc..)

You'd think that all the rollback people would want to go back to a time of innocence.....LOL! Just kidding.... 

No apologies needed. That’s exactly it.  Return to a tiny sweetspot which favors a skill I value.  Others value the bash it skill.  Aka speed.  I’m outnumbered for sure. But intellectually their opinion doesn’t weigh more , it’s just valued by more because of their need for the forgiving clubs.  

[bladehunter]

Just now, b.helts said:

 

 

I simply stated what they could do. I did not say it would be equally effective nor did I say it would not.

 

That's you assuming that's what I'm saying. 

Fair enough. I’m sure .  
 

Again. I’m not arguing for it. I’d love to see it all banned. I just can see how  it will cast doubt on the method.  And confidence is at least half of putting.