NYT article on the changing culture of golf: beer, shorter courses, female participation, and relaxed rules (**NO POLITICS**)

[Ferguson]

D

On 7/3/2021 at 4:35 PM, Murphy76 said:

 

I was about to ask what planet you were living on, but now I get it.

 

I would be hard pressed to find an American course that didn't have beer for sale. 

 

In fact, we have roving women who sell beer from the backs of their carts.  Some people believe these women have loose morals, and are quite sexually active. 

 

I hear they truly enjoy listening to a dirty joke, and enjoy compliments about their breasts.

 

 

Preferably from men in denim.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Roody]

18 hours ago, lefthack said:

 

But what if you did and played your funnest round ever? Maybe start a thong and helmet tournament!

 

I'm pretty sure that even my own wife does not want to see that. 

Now if we got a thong and motorcycle helmet tournament for the Swedish Bikini Team going, I think that would sell out. 

[BdubBoston]

On 7/7/2021 at 9:51 PM, lefthack said:

 

My club is only 9 holes, but 1 and 8 tee from the clubhouse and 5 isn't far. This allows you to start your round from 5 or 8 if 1 is full. You can also play a quick 6 or 7 holes since both 6 and 7 end near the clubhouse.

 

I can fairly easily play 11 at my club as it's a short walk back to the clubhouse. Sometimes when we're only doing 9 and we have a few minutes we'll tack on an extra two as the time allows.

 

I'm sure there is a way I could route 6, or maybe 7. 

 

It's a private club and if I'm not getting in anyone's way I'll do what I want.

 

Outside of tacking on a few in the case of my first sentence, or just messing around early season, I never do any of this. If I have a few hours, it's going to be 9 holes: but I always want to play 18. If I have an hour to kill I'll chip, putt, hit the range.

 

This all being said: I just don't get 6 or 12 holes. If you don't have the time for a feel round there is practice, nine holes, exec courses, par 3 courses, etc. 

[RoyalMustang]

25 minutes ago, BdubBoston said:

 

I can fairly easily play 11 at my club as it's a short walk back to the clubhouse. Sometimes when we're only doing 9 and we have a few minutes we'll tack on an extra two as the time allows.

 

I'm sure there is a way I could route 6, or maybe 7. 

 

It's a private club and if I'm not getting in anyone's way I'll do what I want.

 

Outside of tacking on a few in the case of my first sentence, or just messing around early season, I never do any of this. If I have a few hours, it's going to be 9 holes: but I always want to play 18. If I have an hour to kill I'll chip, putt, hit the range.

 

This all being said: I just don't get 6 or 12 holes. If you don't have the time for a feel round there is practice, nine holes, exec courses, par 3 courses, etc. 

 

What about 6 twice around?  3x around on 100-yard holes would be a challenging 18 on the right course!  

 

I played 18 last night on a LONG course (walking ) and it still took me 3:15 with nobody in front of me.  Then again, the darn thing was 8.6 miles!  My usually 18-hole course is just under 7 miles; this was not a good layout

[smashdn]

What difference is there in a 12 hole course with four, three hole chunks whereby three are used to create a nine hole route for the day and a 27 hole course whereby two, nines are used to make 18?

 

Would you rather a piece of property shoehorn 18 holes in or would it be a better use and get more use if it were 12 holes and a stellar range and practice area?

[bonvivantva]

27 minutes ago, smashdn said:

What difference is there in a 12 hole course with four, three hole chunks whereby three are used to create a nine hole route for the day and a 27 hole course whereby two, nines are used to make 18?

 

Would you rather a piece of property shoehorn 18 holes in or would it be a better use and get more use if it were 12 holes and a stellar range and practice area?

That's a good point I hadn't considered.  I would enjoy having something like that near me.

[Showtime9]

Meh. These type of articles usually come out once every three years (followed by the "Golf is dying" articles a year later). I have no problem growing the game but just learn the etiquette. Unfortunately, these new courses fail to teach and encourage people to do so. 

[Gsea]

On 7/5/2021 at 4:35 PM, The Pearl said:

Growing the Game" really means shoving anybody on the course while sticking one kid in the pro shop to collect greens fees.  

Truth, finally.

[bonvivantva]

Y'all are depressingly cynical.  I also fail to see how one can be elitist while at the same time thinking that growing the game and making it more inclusive is going to somehow affect them personally.  That doesn't follow.

[Soloman1]

We're are exclusive species. Stay out of my country, stay out of my state, get out of my county, get out of my city, stay out of my neighborhood, get off my lawn, get out of my lane, get out of my way, stay out of my parking spot, stay away from my desk.

 

[bonvivantva]

12 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

We're 

I think most golfers are decent enough people.  You might be in even more limited company than you realize.

[MtlJeff]

Golf is one of the few sports that really doesn't seem to understand it's own place. My wife competed in horseback riding for many years, there is no drive to grow horseback riding , people seem to understand that the time commitment (and cost) is something that is going to drive away many people.

 

The combination of land (land is expensive, depending on region even more so) plus time commitment is always going to hinder golf's growth. The article talks about golf's stagnant growth, it's been somewhere around 25M basically forever. Jumped to 35M due to Tiger --Than trickled back down to where we started. Courses that got built when golf was at 35M people are now closing. This isn't even a bad thing...There are arguably better uses for the land than golf courses no one plays.

 

Why do we want to grow the game? The most populated areas are typically where land is most expensive. Is this a good use of land? We're basically already dealing with a housing crisis in many areas---I am sure more golf courses that cost 100$ to play aren't going to endear local governments to their people

 

As far as the article is concerned, THAT type of growth makes sense (Golf peripheral activities like Top Golf or short Par 3 courses with music ) as it is less time consuming and takes up less land. But that isn't really golf , it's like comparing organized basketball to playing 3 on 3 with your friends at the local court.

[bonvivantva]

4 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

Why do we want to grow the game? 

More golf and more options can only be a good thing.  If there is demand for golf, supply should rise to meet it, in any and all forms.  

4 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

it's like comparing organized basketball to playing 3 on 3 with your friends at the local court.

I agree with your statement, but likely not the intend of said statement.  I think organized basketball and pickup 3 on 3 are very comparable as they're different forms of the same basic game.  Just like a par 3, top golf, or even just a pitch and putt is a different form of the same basic game.  You can prefer the full and traditional version while still enjoying simplified versions, just as those that play organized basketball may enjoy pickup games.

 

I genuinely agree with a lot of what you've said, but I still don't see why anyone would be against new forms of the game of golf, or growing the game in general.  I appreciate your example of horseback riding, both logically, but also personally as I grew up riding.  Of course you're right that not everyone can afford to ride.  But the more people that do, the more demand there will be, and therefore, the more opportunities one will have to ride.  Do I expect all riders to compete, no.  But if more people have access to riding, there will be more options, such as vacation trail rides, polo, dude ranches, etc.  If you don't encourage new people to take up riding, those opportunities will be lost.  In fact, the stable where I used to ride has since become a golf course...

[MtlJeff]

3 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

More golf and more options can only be a good thing.  If there is demand for golf, supply should rise to meet it, in any and all forms.  

I agree with your statement, but likely not the intend of said statement.  I think organized basketball and pickup 3 on 3 are very comparable as they're different forms of the same basic game.  Just like a par 3, top golf, or even just a pitch and putt is a different form of the same basic game.  You can prefer the full and traditional version while still enjoying simplified versions, just as those that play organized basketball may enjoy pickup games.

 

I genuinely agree with a lot of what you've said, but I still don't see why anyone would be against new forms of the game of golf, or growing the game in general.  I appreciate your example of horseback riding, both logically, but also personally as I grew up riding.  Of course you're right that not everyone can afford to ride.  But the more people that do, the more demand there will be, and therefore, the more opportunities one will have to ride.  Do I expect all riders to compete, no.  But if more people have access to riding, there will be more options, such as vacation trail rides, polo, dude ranches, etc.  If you don't encourage new people to take up riding, those opportunities will be lost.  In fact, the stable where I used to ride has since become a golf course...

 

I don't necessarily have a problem with growing the game, nor with anyone new who would play it. I just don't see an easy way to do it. Land in most places is very expensive, so you'd need to build new courses likely further outside the cities, which increases the time factor (right now there is no golf course within 25 minutes of downtown Montreal, with traffic it could be 45+ minutes). Anything closer to the city would be way too expensive. One of Montreal's most prestigious older courses , and one of the closest to the city, is almost certainly going to be sold within 5 years for land development.

 

It's just hard to really grow the game because the cost of land, and the time aspect of golf, make it hard. It just doesn't seem to be an "easy" sport to play.

 

I am 39, i have many friends in their 30's who would play golf, they just don't have the time. Even a 12 hole course, but located 50 minutes from their house, probably wouldn't change much. They have young kids etc. It's why i said earlier "No one" (hyperbole obviously) between 25 and 55 plays golf LOL

 

So that's why Top Golf and etc are probably more appealing. And i'm totally fine with it. I enjoy those things too. They are arguably the ONLY way to grow the game, which is fine. I just think of it as two different things. Golf and Golf Adjacent. Golf likely will not change very much, at least IMO

[bonvivantva]

3 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

I don't necessarily have a problem with growing the game, nor with anyone new who would play it. I just don't see an easy way to do it. Land in most places is very expensive, so you'd need to build new courses likely further outside the cities, which increases the time factor (right now there is no golf course within 25 minutes of downtown Montreal, with traffic it could be 45+ minutes). Anything closer to the city would be way too expensive. One of Montreal's most prestigious older courses , and one of the closest to the city, is almost certainly going to be sold within 5 years for land development.

 

It's just hard to really grow the game because the cost of land, and the time aspect of golf, make it hard. It just doesn't seem to be an "easy" sport to play.

 

I am 39, i have many friends in their 30's who would play golf, they just don't have the time. Even a 12 hole course, but located 50 minutes from their house, probably wouldn't change much. They have young kids etc. It's why i said earlier "No one" (hyperbole obviously) between 25 and 55 plays golf LOL

 

So that's why Top Golf and etc are probably more appealing. And i'm totally fine with it. I enjoy those things too. They are arguably the ONLY way to grow the game, which is fine. I just think of it as two different things. Golf and Golf Adjacent. Golf likely will not change very much, at least IMO

I agree with all of that.  That's mostly why I'm in favor of any kind of new and abbreviated options.  The one thing I think I'd like to have the most is a pitch and putt.  Even a 9 hole pitch and putt would be a ton of fun, and I have a 6 year old that is just about old enough and skilled enough to play one.  But I agree time and land are against us.  I'm hoping that telework will change how much time people spend commuting and even working, so that there is more time for golf. 

[PhilsFanDrew]

2 hours ago, MtlJeff said:

 

I don't necessarily have a problem with growing the game, nor with anyone new who would play it. I just don't see an easy way to do it. Land in most places is very expensive, so you'd need to build new courses likely further outside the cities, which increases the time factor (right now there is no golf course within 25 minutes of downtown Montreal, with traffic it could be 45+ minutes). Anything closer to the city would be way too expensive. One of Montreal's most prestigious older courses , and one of the closest to the city, is almost certainly going to be sold within 5 years for land development.

 

It's just hard to really grow the game because the cost of land, and the time aspect of golf, make it hard. It just doesn't seem to be an "easy" sport to play.

 

I am 39, i have many friends in their 30's who would play golf, they just don't have the time. Even a 12 hole course, but located 50 minutes from their house, probably wouldn't change much. They have young kids etc. It's why i said earlier "No one" (hyperbole obviously) between 25 and 55 plays golf LOL

 

So that's why Top Golf and etc are probably more appealing. And i'm totally fine with it. I enjoy those things too. They are arguably the ONLY way to grow the game, which is fine. I just think of it as two different things. Golf and Golf Adjacent. Golf likely will not change very much, at least IMO

 

I totally agree with this.  There are also sports bars opening up here that feature simulator bays available for groups to rent with food and drink service.  This is probably much more fun for the average person than just going to the driving range and hitting a bucket of golf balls without having to commit hours at a time to play if they eventually take interest above whacking golf balls.  The masses love technology and leisure/activities associated with it.  

Edited July 13, 2021 by PhilsFanDrew

[jibbs1082]

2 hours ago, MtlJeff said:

 

I don't necessarily have a problem with growing the game, nor with anyone new who would play it. I just don't see an easy way to do it. Land in most places is very expensive, so you'd need to build new courses likely further outside the cities, which increases the time factor (right now there is no golf course within 25 minutes of downtown Montreal, with traffic it could be 45+ minutes). Anything closer to the city would be way too expensive. One of Montreal's most prestigious older courses , and one of the closest to the city, is almost certainly going to be sold within 5 years for land development.

 

It's just hard to really grow the game because the cost of land, and the time aspect of golf, make it hard. It just doesn't seem to be an "easy" sport to play.

 

I am 39, i have many friends in their 30's who would play golf, they just don't have the time. Even a 12 hole course, but located 50 minutes from their house, probably wouldn't change much. They have young kids etc. It's why i said earlier "No one" (hyperbole obviously) between 25 and 55 plays golf LOL

 

So that's why Top Golf and etc are probably more appealing. And i'm totally fine with it. I enjoy those things too. They are arguably the ONLY way to grow the game, which is fine. I just think of it as two different things. Golf and Golf Adjacent. Golf likely will not change very much, at least IMO

 

I sort of agree with you BUT, people who want to play can find time. For example - if you play in a men's hockey league, lets say 25 min commute, 30 min to get ready, 1h30 slot, 1 hour post game (change, shower, beer or two), 25 min home - your suddenly at 4 hours. Close to a round minus driving time. Fellas can easily knock out 9 holes twice a week first thing in the morning before work (office job) or at golden hour. It's just choices IMO. 18 holes every other weekend. Play early, have the rest of the day. Needs to be more courses that have lighting for night golf and stay open until midnight.... THAT would grow the game, and suddenly day light doesn't become an issue. 

[MtlJeff]

2 minutes ago, jibbs1082 said:

 

I sort of agree with you BUT, people who want to play can find time. For example - if you play in a men's hockey league, lets say 25 min commute, 30 min to get ready, 1h30 slot, 1 hour post game (change, shower, beer or two), 25 min home - your suddenly at 4 hours. Close to a round minus driving time. Fellas can easily knock out 9 holes twice a week first thing in the morning before work (office job) or at golden hour. It's just choices IMO. 18 holes every other weekend. Play early, have the rest of the day. Needs to be more courses that have lighting for night golf and stay open until midnight.... THAT would grow the game, and suddenly day light doesn't become an issue. 

 

Haha- I also know people who've quit men's hockey leagues!

 

It's pretty similar as you say. Stuff can be time consuming. My friends who play in hockey leagues , the way they justify it to me is that many of their games start at like 9PM, so it's after their kids homework is done, and sometimes even after they've gone to bed. So they aren't missing out as much as say playing golf at 9AM on a saturday

 

I make it work because i play at 6:30 AM and live 10 minutes from my course. I play in 4-5 tournaments a year but those are always booked in advance (the dates)

[jibbs1082]

1 hour ago, MtlJeff said:

 

Haha- I also know people who've quit men's hockey leagues!

 

It's pretty similar as you say. Stuff can be time consuming. My friends who play in hockey leagues , the way they justify it to me is that many of their games start at like 9PM, so it's after their kids homework is done, and sometimes even after they've gone to bed. So they aren't missing out as much as say playing golf at 9AM on a saturday

 

I make it work because i play at 6:30 AM and live 10 minutes from my course. I play in 4-5 tournaments a year but those are always booked in advance (the dates)

 

That's exactly it - have to suck it up and play crack of dawn or "with clients" during the week (in quotes) haha

 

s

 

 

[Quasimoto]

The way I look at this is golf has an established amount of decorum, of layout (18 holes e.g.), of rules - ROG - and many courses prescribe their policies for people to be on their property.

Now, if someone objects to those policies and decorum, why do you think it is within your purview to flaunt those policies and ram your own style down everyone else’s throats?

 

Why not go out like the Top golf people did and build your own facilities, courses, policies, rules, the way you want them? Surely there exists a market for 6/12 golf courses? Go your own way.

[capking]

On 7/3/2021 at 4:56 AM, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

 

Now you mention it, I've never drunk alcohol on a course in Britain, and I've rarely seen anyone else imbibe. At the club I was a junior member of, there were one or two old blokes who might carry a small flask of whisky in the colder months, but it wasn't like they were roaring drunks or anything. Just a little sip now and again.

how do you expect to grow the game haha! 

[dugue4]

4 hours ago, jibbs1082 said:

. Needs to be more courses that have lighting for night golf and stay open until midnight....

That would be awesome 

[jibbs1082]

1 minute ago, dugue4 said:

That would be awesome 

 

[dugue4]

3 minutes ago, jibbs1082 said:

 

Where is that?

[jibbs1082]

2 minutes ago, dugue4 said:

Where is that?

 

Well Dubai, but... up in Canada I always played this little 9-hole par 3 that was lit for night golf and it was awesome, so its for sure do-able. Probably someone taking on that expense would only do it in the South though.... AZ might even be too cold at night. Florida, and SoCal...

 

 

 

[larrybud]

Nothing is preventing anybody from playing by their own rules, moving up to the forward tees, or preventing women from playing.

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by larrybud

[kmay__]

It's like anything else now, I enjoy the classic nature of golf, I like to play 18 and count all my strokes, I like to wear my nice golf clothes and swing my nice golf clubs. If the folks in the next fairway over are here only to play 12 holes, wearing jean shorts, listening to music and taking mulligans..... I DON'T CARE. lol Good for them, they do them and I'll do me. Neither one of us has to change for the other, and neither one of us has to try and impose our values on one another. Live and let live. 

 

I find in the real world, we all get along pretty well. And we all want similar things in life. Its only online and in print where this make believe outrage and these drastic differences in folks exist. When you meet face to face you realize, there's no need for anger and confrontation, and most of us have no desire to convert others to our "way of life". We're all just looking to find happiness and fulfillment, so you find yours and I'll keep tryna find mine. 

[bonvivantva]

7 hours ago, kmay__ said:

Its only online and in print where this make believe outrage and these drastic differences in folks exist. When you meet face to face you realize, there's no need for anger and confrontation, and most of us have no desire to convert others to our "way of life". 

Well said, but there was no outrage or drastic differences noted in the article (print).  I guess the title kind of implied that there might be, but the only outrage was online (this forum) over the source and assumptions about what the article could be about.  I totally agree thought that in the real world, no one will object to top golf, a 9 hole course, night golf, etc.  Only online would someone object.

[golfortennis]

On 7/13/2021 at 2:52 PM, jibbs1082 said:

 

I sort of agree with you BUT, people who want to play can find time. For example - if you play in a men's hockey league, lets say 25 min commute, 30 min to get ready, 1h30 slot, 1 hour post game (change, shower, beer or two), 25 min home - your suddenly at 4 hours. Close to a round minus driving time. Fellas can easily knock out 9 holes twice a week first thing in the morning before work (office job) or at golden hour. It's just choices IMO. 18 holes every other weekend. Play early, have the rest of the day. Needs to be more courses that have lighting for night golf and stay open until midnight.... THAT would grow the game, and suddenly day light doesn't become an issue. 

 

You also forgot to mention a lot of times those hockey guys could be playing at 10 or 11 pm.  When I played for a couple of seasons, it was 10-11 on Wednesday.   Or 7 am Sunday.  For adults hockey is just as "inconvenient" because the kids get all the decent times.  Not saying right or wrong, just that is how it is.