Dave Pelz and the 64 deg wedge

[kasting333]

Dustin Johnson had a 64 in the bag for quite a while. 

[reider69]

I always have a 64 in the bag and used to use it for all types of shots...  until I learned how to open up my 58 and use its bounce.  Because of this change I don't blade shots over the green and only use the 64 a couple times a year for circus shots.  Dangerous club but glad I have it when I land behind a tree and need to pop ball straight up in air or when I am deep in a bunker and just need more loft.

[cardoustie]

I’m at 46-52-58-64 currently .. but have played 46-50-55-60-64 a lot

 

5 wedges … i drop a 6i or a 50* depending on course and event

 

Home course has small raised crazy fast and sloped greens with deep traps, it’s a big help

 

I use the 64 greenside constantly and it my go to wedge for short sided pitches and chips as well

 

The Wrx grind on my tour W 64 is awesome. I Have also played with a PM grind 64 (for me more of a sand club vs a fairway club) in the past and the old sm2 64.07 Vokey a lot

[Fairway14]

On 9/13/2021 at 5:22 AM, playit said:

Whatever happened with the Dave Pelz theory of adding a 64 degree wedge? Do any pros use this currently? What about him teaching that system, does he? I see a couple of 64 degree wedges offered but has the 64 degree largely gone the way of the dodo bird? I did try to add the 64 several years ago over a period of a few months but it never stuck, I just used my 60 as max loft. Open the face if needed. What do you guys know about this?

 

Two years ago I added a 64* wedge and love it. My wedge technique is not good and I always struggled with a 58* or 60* wedge. For me the 64* is easier than a 58* or 60* because the 64* shots stop where they land, without having to open the face. I use the 64* for shots ranging from 40 to 70 yards.

[lazyjc4]

20 hours ago, Superfast2.0 said:

May be hard to justify carrying a 64 for a lot of people with how little they may need to use it. If you add a 64, what club can you take out? FW, long iron or another wedge?

It creates a bit of a gap between my hybrid (220-ish) and 5-iron (195).  I've found I have way more shots per round where my 64* can help me than shots from 210 yards out where I'm in between clubs.

[ChipNRun]

7 hours ago, kiwihacker said:

Me personally I can't even use a 60° consistently so 58° is the maximum lofted wedge in my bag. 

 

The only 60° I ever used consistently came with a set of component irons I had built for back in 1994. It worked well off an unusually fluffy Bermuda strain popular down in Dallas area. It was great for popping shots over the chocolate drop mounds that ringed many greens, and for cut shots into tight pins.

 

BUT, things changed when I moved to Southwest Oklahoma and was playing off a lot of hard pan and tight lies. The 60° started launching a bullet about every third time I hit it. Went to using it maybe once a month when I had cushioning under the shot.

 

When I redid my wedges a couple of years back, I went with Calla 48-54-60. The 60° was an MD-PM U-grind (concave sole). It was great inside 30 yards, but I had distance control problems on longer shots. After a season I switched to my current 58°.

 

In 2016 I did find a 60° I really liked. At a golf expo I got to hit KickX prototype wedges. The 60° was super - I could hit full swing shots with no real falloff in yardage. Unfortunately, the wedges never became a production model. (KickX is a branch of Medicus, which makes golf training clubs and related training products. KickX made several club models for on-course play.)

[kiwihacker]

I think a 64° wedge is absolutely essential for when I'm greenside and the pin is 30 feet away. No way I'm bumping and running a 9 iron. No way man, I'm laying that baby open and taking a full swing and flopping the ball beside the pin. YEAH BABY!!!

[kiwihacker]

4 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

 

The only 60° I ever used consistently came with a set of component irons I had built for back in 1994. It worked well off an unusually fluffy Bermuda strain popular down in Dallas area. It was great for popping shots over the chocolate drop mounds that ringed many greens, and for cut shots into tight pins.

 

BUT, things changed when I moved to Southwest Oklahoma and was playing off a lot of hard pan and tight lies. The 60° started launching a bullet about every third time I hit it. Went to using it maybe once a month when I had cushioning under the shot.

 

When I redid my wedges a couple of years back, I went with Calla 48-54-60. The 60° was an MD-PM U-grind (concave sole). It was great inside 30 yards, but I had distance control problems on longer shots. After a season I switched to my current 58°.

 

In 2016 I did find a 60° I really liked. At a golf expo I got to hit KickX prototype wedges. The 60° was super - I could hit full swing shots with no real falloff in yardage. Unfortunately, the wedges never became a production model. (KickX is a branch of Medicus, which makes golf training clubs and related training products. KickX made several club models for on-course play.)

Only one I have ever owned was the classic Cleveland 588. I had the 51° 56° and 60°. Very low bounce (3°). I lost the 51°, the 56° wore out but the 60° is still in my garage available for selection. The grooves are still perfect. 

 

I don't bag it anymore and any time I do it just reminds me why I don't.  

Edited September 14, 2021 by kiwihacker

[playit]

17 hours ago, kiwihacker said:

Only one I have ever owned was the classic Cleveland 588. I had the 51° 56° and 60°. Very low bounce (3°). I lost the 51°, the 56° wore out but the 60° is still in my garage available for selection. The grooves are still perfect. 

 

I don't bag it anymore and any time I do it just reminds me why I don't.  

 

The 60 deg 588 had only 3 deg of bounce, stock? I don't recall them being that low, I am curious about your comment. I was thinking they were 6 or 8 deg bounce.

[kiwihacker]

1 hour ago, playit said:

 

The 60 deg 588 had only 3 deg of bounce, stock? I don't recall them being that low, I am curious about your comment. I was thinking they were 6 or 8 deg bounce.

The loft bounce of all three were as follows:

51/6

56/14

60/3

 

So one extreme to the other. The 60 was good in rock hard summer conditions but dug into the mud like a hot knife through butter in wet, soggy, winter conditions. 

[kiwihacker]

Found these lofts and bounce on an obscure website. Pretty old model now.   588												588 DSG
	Loft		45	47	49	51	53	54	56	57	60	64	Loft		52	56	58	60
	Bounce		8	8	8/5	6	8	12	14	10	3	8	Bounce		10	14	10	3
	Finishes:  Chrome - RTG - Gun Metal

[SwingMan]

Back in the late 90s, the trend was no bounce in the 588. I owned a few. Had no idea what I was doing...

[AdmiralPicard]

I loved those 588s. Had the 56 and 60 which kicked the old 200 series vokeys out of the bag. I loved them but could no longer find them. 
 

Great memories. 

[playit]

5 hours ago, kiwihacker said:

The loft bounce of all three were as follows:

51/6

56/14

60/3

 

So one extreme to the other. The 60 was good in rock hard summer conditions but dug into the mud like a hot knife through butter in wet, soggy, winter conditions. 

 

Good on you. No wonder the 60 was my favorite club! I used it primarily as a scoring wedge from tight lies, short range up to about 70 yards.

 

Do you know if there are 60 deg wedges these days with not much bounce? In a quick search, I didn't find one but as I said, it was quick.

 

EDIT: And do you know if all 588 60 deg had only 3 deg bounce? I found that says it's 12 deg bounce.

Edited September 15, 2021 by playit

[mogc60]

32 minutes ago, playit said:

 

Good on you. No wonder the 60 was my favorite club! I used it primarily as a scoring wedge from tight lies, short range up to about 70 yards.

 

Do you know if there are 60 deg wedges these days with not much bounce? In a quick search, I didn't find one but as I said, it was quick.

 

EDIT: And do you know if all 588 60 deg had only 3 deg bounce? I found that says it's 12 deg bounce.

They eventually made both. My 60 was the 12 degree model. Best lob wedge I ever owned. In college I was a machine with that wedge from 85 in

[HoosierHacker89]

I had a 64. Thing was basically a sand only club. 

[L29]

[philly2kuk]

I remember in my mid to late teens I bought a Wilson “trouble” wedge. It was 64 degrees and meant for getting out of trouble. It put me in far more trouble than it got me out of, so I’ve stuck to 60 degrees since as I can just open the face a bit.

[njlam]

I put a 64 in my bag when covid started and my index has dropped 3 points (now 8.3). 
 

It replaced a 60, so I do have a larger gap between my SW (85-95 yds), but it is my go to club inside of 70 yards, or from greenside bunkers that have a high lip or are short sided.

 

What I like about the 64 is the ability for the ball to stop on the green (always got too much rollout with the 60).

 

Some have suggested opening up a 60 for similar results, but mentally, shanking it right is too strong an image.

 

Mine is a Cleveland 588 RTG which I love but are hard to find.

Have a Cleveland X-Forged as a back up.

 

Years ago, I bought a Feel 73 degree as an experiment....I think 64 is the the goldilocks solution.

[Haroputt]

2 hours ago, njlam said:

I put a 64 in my bag when covid started and my index has dropped 3 points (now 8.3). 
 

It replaced a 60, so I do have a larger gap between my SW (85-95 yds), but it is my go to club inside of 70 yards, or from greenside bunkers that have a high lip or are short sided.

 

What I like about the 64 is the ability for the ball to stop on the green (always got too much rollout with the 60).

 

Some have suggested opening up a 60 for similar results, but mentally, shanking it right is too strong an image.

 

Mine is a Cleveland 588 RTG which I love but are hard to find.

Have a Cleveland X-Forged as a back up.

 

Years ago, I bought a Feel 73 degree as an experiment....I think 64 is the the goldilocks solution.

I love my 64    dropped my  60 from my bag

It's perfect for flop shot.

I dont like to open the face up with a 60  

If anything I like to play my 64 with with the intended loft wedge around the green or  delofting if the shot calls for it

I find opening up  the face can lead to chunks with the wedge , only time I do it is from the sand.

[Jtgavigan]

On 9/13/2021 at 2:14 PM, ChipNRun said:

Back in 2000, Pelz packaged two decades of research on chips and wedges into Short Game Bible. He advocated back then to going to 4 wedges in the bag. Plus, the clock system was used to control distance. See diagram (red loft ranges inserted by me from info elsewhere in the book).

 

One curious diagram note is the absence of a Gap Wedge (AKA Utility, Attack, Approach). For a long time, Pelz and club designer Ralph Maltby suggested that the GW wasn't really necessary, if one just mastered partial swings.

 

This is interesting, as GWs began appearing in the early 1990s in club models such as the Titleist DCI Black (released in 1993). The idea was to fill the loft gap between the SW and the PW, when the pitches delofted to the high-40 degree range.

 

 

 

There was someone in the thread above who called Pelz a hack. Well, the wedge system above is used more than you think. Bryson even uses the clock system to dial his irons in. You will hear him talk about how far to take it back and using "time" to describe it. I cant imagine the time it takes to dial in all those feels. My goodness. 

 

For me, this system above is what got me into the low to mid 70s from the upper 70s to low 80s. Growing up, I never had a clue which club to hit and how far it would go inside a full swing. Now, I have 12 known distances from 50 to 135 yards. I can choke down and take a few yards off each of those distances. I am pretty much guaranteed a 10 to 15 foot putt or less if I can make those swings. Before, I would often be lucky to have 30 feet because it was all feel. If I wasn't playing and practicing a lot, I had NO wedge game. 

 

Now, regardless of how much I practice or play, I at least have a plan when I have 75 yards. I may not execute it as well as I would like, but I know that is a 58° wedge to 9:00. If I have 60 yards, it is a 7:30 50°.

 

After reading the Pelz short game Bible, I adopted this system and 4 wedges (currently 44°, 50°, 54°, and 58°). I experimented with a 64 (bent a Snake Eyes low bounce 60 to 64), but I didn't care for it. I can open up a 58 or 60 and hit any shot I want with it. If I carried another wedge, it would open too big of a gap for me in the upper end of my bag.

 

So, my opinion is Pelz is far from a hack. He studied the short game way more than any of us and he has helped me and countless others. I would doubt too many pros would call him a hack either. I dont agree with or adopt everything he coaches, and I suspect many others feel the same way, but that doesn't make him a hack.

[hartman29]

Bought a cheap Dunlop 64 a few years  ago just to mess around with. Occasionally it’ll make the bag for a hits and giggles round.

 

Typically I play 46-52-58, so I take out a hybrid if I do play it. I’m just now getting comfortable enough with it around the greens to warrant it more often. High and stops fast.

 

If I’m feeling frisky (or a few beers in), I’ll attempt a full shot with it. 50-60 yards is about as far as I can go if it’s a perfect strike.

[Luke'sdad]

Use to play a local course lined everywhere it seemed with large pine trees. They were even green side on a variety of holes. Got so tired of hitting good approach shots only to have to punch a 8/9 iron under the branches and hope I held the green. My solution was finding a ridiculous spoon looking 68 degree wedge from Pine Meadows golf (appropriate name I concluded) at the local Play It Again for peanuts. Who knew how many times that wedge saved me, specifically on that course. It didn't go far, but it easily climbed over those green lined pines from 50 yards and in & dropped and stopped dead on the greens. It was actually pretty fun to hit. Now, on the vast majority of courses it was pretty useless, but it was a great weapon on that one particular one. Still have it to this day.

[Hack Daddy]

On 9/13/2021 at 5:40 AM, animalgolfs said:

I know a 64* is useless 99.01% of the time....on the courses I play regularly 

 

I have a 62 in the bag that I use 9/10 times I chip, and anything under 95 yards. 

[PuffyC]

I'd argue if you're good enough to produce more good shots than bad with a 64 degree wedge, you probably don't need a 64 degree wedge. Just open the face of a 56 or 60. But then I'd say that about a 60 degree wedge too. I'm not a good golfer, and maybe I'm doing it wrong, but there's nothing I can do with a 56 or 60 off turf that I can't do easier and more consistently just opening the face of my 50.

[TM4me]

56* is the max loft I carry.

[Roejye]

I have a 64° wedge in my bag currently. I only use it when I'm short sided and need the ball to stop on the green. I have used it a few times for longer shots, but it's just not worth it. I dropped my 60° for it. I am not a high spin player and when I tried those short sided chips with the 60° they would often roll out more than I wanted. So combine that with the urge to tinker, and the fact that I rarely use a 60 anyways, it's been a good purchase.

[badandbogey]

love my 64, its money 55 yards out which i find myself to be often. 

i carry 46-52-56-60-64

[SwingMan]

A 64 doesn't have enough versatility for me. I'd rather open up a 59.

 

I have an Edel 62 but haven't used it in 3 yrs.

 

A ball similar to the ProV1s or Bridgestone RXS or XS stop well on the greens for me.

 

More than 20 yr after reading the putting bible, I remember to play more break, but now use AimPoint and if an uphill putt, make your target beyond the hole; if a downhill putt, a spot before the hole - which spot depends on slope.

Edited November 8, 2021 by SwingMan

[dsmil]

My guess is that back when he developed that theory, it was thought that a 64 would provide the most spin/control/stopping power on pitch shots.  In reality, around a 30 degree launch angle is going to provide the best results and that is usually not going to happen with a 64 and somewhat normal club presentation (dynamic loft, angle of attack).

Edited November 8, 2021 by dsmil