Azinger calls out Koepka on his Ryder Cup comments

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

Totally see what you are saying as well. It certainly does seem that he struggles with certain aspects of being in a team. That that is the case is fine, I would rather that he vocalised that. He also says that he has to change the way that he thinks about in things. That seems to be me that he is changing to fit in as best he can. If he was truly not a team player, he would not be doing that. 

I suppose at least he’s voiced the idea of an effort. 
 

 

it’s just that I’ve played team sports from age 5 to 25 mostly basketball as far as team went.  You learn to spot this guy early and easily.   Usually it’s the coaches kid or a rich kid etc.  and it goes something like this.  
 

big game comes up , you practice as a team. And you come out of the gate flat.  Go into halftime and the previously mentioned jerk was will announce something like “  get the ball out to me on the wing , Billy is missing too many inside “.  The reality of that is that Billy is working the block down low and has been double teamed all game due to the wing not moving without the ball to draw the 2nd defender out.  His a** is standing at the top yelling for the ball.  So Billy does all he can and shoot each time with 2 hands in his face.  So the jerk is double wrong usually.  He’s helping cause the missed shots either through attitude or actions , and in top of it he’s calling out his big guy at halftime for having a poor percentage.  I’ve seen fist fights over this very thing in the locker room. All it takes is one guy playing for himself.  The rare exceptions are like MJ or Bird.  They are talented enough to beat most teams 5 on 1. But if you look very closely. They almost alwasy do the other team fundamentals well. Even if it’s for selfish reasons to get themselves open.  
 

I see team golf as the same. Don’t apologize for a bad result as long as you’re grinding alll you can.  And never blame a guy for  a bad result. Ever.  Always help him shoulder it.  Next time it maybe your turn to get that mental help.    I’m not meaning this shot at you.  I just see this as being the disconnect between the European team and the USA.  The euros get this concept.  

[phizzy30]

Would've loved to see Kevin Na on the team.  He's a fellow Korean, impassioned, emotional and would get the other guys fired up.  He would be like Sergio minus the antics. 

[phizzy30]

8 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I suppose at least he’s voiced the idea of an effort. 
 

 

it’s just that I’ve played team sports from age 5 to 25 mostly basketball as far as team went.  You learn to spot this guy early and easily.   Usually it’s the coaches kid or a rich kid etc.  and it goes something like this.  
 

big game comes up , you practice as a team. And you come out of the gate flat.  Go into halftime and the previously mentioned jerk was will announce something like “  get the ball out to me on the wing , Billy is missing too many inside “.  The reality of that is that Billy is working the block down low and has been double teamed all game due to the wing not moving without the ball to draw the 2nd defender out.  His a** is standing at the top yelling for the ball.  So Billy does all he can and shoot each time with 2 hands in his face.  So the jerk is double wrong usually.  He’s helping cause the missed shots either through attitude or actions , and in top of it he’s calling out his big guy at halftime for having a poor percentage.  I’ve seen fist fights over this very thing in the locker room. All it takes is one guy playing for himself.  The rare exceptions are like MJ or Bird.  They are talented enough to beat most teams 5 on 1. But if you look very closely. They almost alwasy do the other team fundamentals well. Even if it’s for selfish reasons to get themselves open.  
 

I see team golf as the same. Don’t apologize for a bad result as long as you’re grinding alll you can.  And never blame a guy for  a bad result. Ever.  Always help him shoulder it.  Next time it maybe your turn to get that mental help.    I’m not meaning this shot at you.  I just see this as being the disconnect between the European team and the USA.  The euros get this concept.  

Played baseball and golf in high school and played college golf for D2 school.  You nailed it on the head. 

[JohnnyCashForever]

24 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Exactly.  There very rarely is the "yeah, but" argument when it comes to Jack where the Ryder Cup record is brought up.  I have neve heard, "Yeah, he is the best golfer but his Ryder Cup record is not that good so..."

 

So the converse shouldn't be accepted.  "Yeah Sergio/Poulter don't have that many wins or major wins but they have a really good Ryder Cup record." 

 

It's a match play exhibition.  I like it.  I watch it.  It entertains me.  But, like you, I don't use it as a barometer to measure a player's career. 

IMO, this is faulty logic.  If RC were stroke play, then you might be on to something.  But you said it yourself, RC is match play.  Two different beasts with two different approaches to winning.  In one, you're playing against a field of hundreds.  Managing risk is paramount.  In the other, you're playing against one defined opponent.  Managing momentum is more important.  Stroke play is more objective/risk-off while match play is more emotional/risk-on.  Match play prowess is a just a different skill set.  If you buy that, then it's not too far of a stretch to appreciate how one's match play record can be held in high esteem independent of their stroke play record.  

[BNGL]

35 minutes ago, JohnnyCashForever said:

IMO, this is faulty logic.  If RC were stroke play, then you might be on to something.  But you said it yourself, RC is match play.  Two different beasts with two different approaches to winning.  In one, you're playing against a field of hundreds.  Managing risk is paramount.  In the other, you're playing against one defined opponent.  Managing momentum is more important.  Stroke play is more objective/risk-off while match play is more emotional/risk-on.  Match play prowess is a just a different skill set.  If you buy that, then it's not too far of a stretch to appreciate how one's match play record can be held in high esteem independent of their stroke play record.  

Then why aren’t the great Ryder cup players dominating the one match play event a year? Poulter won it once over Paul Casey a few years ago, but I don’t know as that Sergio has had much success? (All off the top of my head). Sure Tigers lost in the first round it happens but over the course their Ryder Cup careers they’d been playing the match play championship and been getting beat by the great players. 

[miamistomp]

Don't malign Sergio

 

Garcia has a major and a Players

 

 

Poulter pretty much un gatz

 

 

[oikos1]

8 minutes ago, BNGL said:

Then why aren’t the great Ryder cup players dominating the one match play event a year? Poulter won it once over Paul Casey a few years ago, but I don’t know as that Sergio has had much success? (All off the top of my head). Sure Tigers lost in the first round it happens but over the course their Ryder Cup careers they’d been playing the match play championship and been getting beat by the great players. 

Isn't that the point?  They're great Ryder Cup players.  And since it's Ryder Cup time, their presence and Ryder Cup record are quite relevant.  Sergio and Poulter were picked for a reason.  Their careers outside of the Ryder Cup are irrelevant this time of year.

[ShowMe]

9 hours ago, MattyO1984 said:

Azinger has certainly parlayed beating the worst European Team of its generation into some form of savant like status when it comes to the Ryder Cup.

 

The comments in the interview were not great but equally, I am not sure that they were that that bad. I mean was there anything that he said which surprised people? Reading them - lack of time, taking players out of their routine, etc - there was nothing in there that hasn’t already been acknowledged by others. It just seems that Brooks has the attitude that he is not going to hide those things. It’s a far cry from the Brooks that was so dull that they didn’t even ask him to come into the press tent. I prefer this Brooks!

 

Also on Patrick Reed being a better pick than him? This is the same Patrick Reed that set out to undermine Spieth before the 2018 Cup (a fight he must have know there was no way he was going to win). Then when he gets there, he threw Furyk under the bus, claimed that he carried Tiger when it was patently obvious that Reed himself played horrendously and then he went after Spieth again.

 

Have you actually looked at who played for each team?  I'm not a Zinger fanboy at all, check out some of my other posts, but the Euro's definitely had a better team than the US in 2008.

 

[ShowMe]

5 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

 

 

Happy and I'm smiling
Walk a mile to drink your water
You know I'd love to love you
And above you there's no other

[BNGL]

10 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Isn't that the point?  They're great Ryder Cup players.  And since it's Ryder Cup time, their presence and Ryder Cup record are quite relevant.  Sergio and Poulter were picked for a reason.  Their careers outside of the Ryder Cup are irrelevant this time of year.

Sure but the point I was trying to make is that if there such great Ryder cup players because of their match play prowess (which is a different skill set than stroke play I’ll grant you that) then why aren’t they performing in match play events on the PGA Tour? To me the Ryder Cup is just an event that the European team for whatever reason seems to play well in, better than thr US team. But I don’t necessarily think there’s a reason for it. In the beginning the US kicked a** every time it seemed. I just don’t think there’s a definitive concrete reason. For whatever reason the other side plays better. 

[ShowMe]

3 hours ago, MattyO1984 said:

The more I think about this, the more I just don’t get the controversy that this has seemed to have caused. At no point does anything he say anything which makes me question his patriotism. Heck, if the USA are serious about reversing their fortunes in the event should the USGA not be looking at this and thinking the guy has a point? If we want these guys to win then maybe we should let them prepare optimally to go ahead and play their best golf?

 

Reading the interview again. We have Koepka saying:-

“It’s different. It’s hectic. It’s a bit odd, if I’m honest. I don’t want to say it’s a bad week. We’re just so individualized, and everybody has their routine and a different way of doing things, and now, it’s like, OK, we have to have a meeting at this time or go do this or go do that. It’s the opposite of what happens during a major week.”

 

Then he says:-

“It’s tough. There are times where I’m like, I won my match. I did my job. What do you want from me? I know how to take responsibility for the shots I hit every week. Now, somebody else hit a bad shot and left me in a bad spot, and I know this hole is a loss. That’s new, and you have to change the way you think about things. You go from an individual sport all the time to a team sport one week a year. It’s so far from my normal routine. I can barely see my [personal] team. It’s hard to even go to the gym. At the Presidents Cup in New York, we had to go to the gym at 5 a.m. to get it in. We went to the Equinox, and it was me, Dustin and Tiger, and we come back and go to a team meeting. Under regular conditions, I take naps a lot. I might take an hour, hour-and-a-half nap, or just chill on the couch and watch “SportsCenter,” before rounds, after rounds, whatever. There’s no time to do that at the Ryder Cup. There’s no time to decompress.”

 

Is it just me or is it not really that hard a position to follow? The Ryder Cup makes it difficult to prepare himself they way that he would normally prepare himself to play a big competition. Surely, with all the obligations that comes as no surprise to anyone?! At no point is he saying he doesn’t want to play.

 

Awww.  Brooksie can barely see his personal team.  I'll bet he can't bring his personal chef along either. 

 

And he can't take a nap.  And he has to go to team meetings.  OMG!  That's horrible.

 

I really feel for him...

[BNGL]

16 minutes ago, miamistomp said:

Don't malign Sergio

 

Garcia has a major and a Players

 

 

Poulter pretty much un gatz

 

 

To be quite frank I totally forgot he had a players win to his credit. Thank you very much for the reminder a trophy like for you! (No sarcasm in this, I seriously forgot about that).

[Pmookie]

I’m glad Azinger did this! Koepka’s such an egotistical whiner. I wish they would sub him out!!!

[ShowMe]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I see what you’re saying. But. Huge but.  
 

what Brooks is describing is a non team player. Snd that’s okay.  It’s ok that he’s not one. But.  Here’s that huge BUT.  He shouldn’t be on a team if he doesn’t want to be part of a team.  The meetings. The taking ownership of your partners shots , that’s how a team works.  He can’t sit and claim to want to be there , and yet call out someone for hitting a bad shot in partners matches.  That person didn’t hit a bad shot.   WE hit a bad shot.  Or else there is no team.  

 

Brooksie says that there is no "I" in TEAM, but there is an "M" and an "E."

[ShowMe]

2 hours ago, BNGL said:

One of the sports posdacsts I listen to while walking has a theory. The theory is that the sooner you get to a basketball players Olympic record the worse a player they are. I look at it the same way with golfers except involving the Ryder Cup. The sooner you get to a players Ryder Cup record the worse a player they. Like people rave about Poulter and Sergio as “passionate” players stalwarts of the Ryder Cup. They have less than 15 PGA Tour wins between them (granted it’s very difficult to win) and 50 wins or around there worldwide (again it’s very difficult to win) but when it counts they’re not winning at a clip not being close to dominant at any level on the PGA Tour. Dominate the Ryder Cup, congrats kudos to you but for me that doesn’t move the needle at all. Will I watch the event? Yeah because I love golf 

 

Sure, but it's all relative.  Anybody who plays on the PGA or European Tour is, by statistical definition, one the very best golfers in the world.  In the 99.99999th percentile.  Same thing with any of the other major sports.  I'd take that in a heartbeat, even if I never won a tournament.  I'm guessing that you would, too.

 

It always gets me when people say that so-and-so is horrible.  No, they're not horrible.  They're one of the best golfers/baseball players/basketball players/football players/tennis players/hockey players/etc. that has ever walked the face of the Earth.  They may not be quite as good as their peers, but they're better than 99.99999% of any other human will ever be.  Very few people ever get to claim that in sports, medicine, business, academia, etc.

[Oldboy]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Jack has a .500 record in Ryder Cup singles matches (4-4-2).  I don't see many throwing shade on that.

I think that's the point.  Ryder Cup on Jack's CV is nowhere near the top.  Its an afterthought

[MattyO1984]

18 minutes ago, ShowMe said:

 

Awww.  Brooksie can barely see his personal team.  I'll bet he can't bring his personal chef along either. 

 

And he can't take a nap.  And he has to go to team meetings.  OMG!  That's horrible.

 

I really feel for him...

Complete 1st World problem I know but if they want him to play his best golf then I can understand why it becomes an issue.

[BNGL]

5 minutes ago, ShowMe said:

 

Sure, but it's all relative.  Anybody who plays on the PGA or European Tour is, by statistical definition, one the very best golfers in the world.  In the 99.99999th percentile.  Same thing with any of the other major sports.  I'd take that in a heartbeat, even if I never won a tournament.  I'm guessing that you would, too.

 

It always gets me when people say that so-and-so is horrible.  No, they're not horrible.  They're one of the best golfers/baseball players/basketball players/football players/tennis players/hockey players/etc. that has ever walked the face of the Earth.  They may not be quite as good as their peers, but they're better than 99.99999% of any other human will ever be.  Very few people ever get to claim that in sports, medicine, business, academia, etc.

You’re correct and I think if you go back and look through all of my posts you’ll see that I take that viewpoint? Look at my profile and go through some posts. You’ll see I’ve defended players when other guys have said so and so isn’t very good. I’ve also gone in on players who others have exalted and said look at x y and z. 
 

But relative to other PGA Tour players Ian Poulter is not a great player in my opinion. Sergio I will back off a little bit on he did pick up a Players and ANGC so he’s up there but I don’t think either of them are great players. 

[Oldboy]

Its an exhibition at the end of the day. Sure it has a bit of history but really some of this hoopla is manufactured for sure.  I mean the comp was altered because GB&I kept getting their a** handed to em. So this isn't some event like .. say the Olympics.  (which a few guys skipped without anyone crapping their undies.)  Its a showcase at the end of the day .. that happens to make a ton of money for .. someone.  Like has been mentioned maybe if the money made went to charity people, including Koepka, would feel differently.  I appreciate someone speaking their mind.  I also think maybe he should sit it out

[ShowMe]

4 minutes ago, BNGL said:

You’re correct and I think if you go back and look through all of my posts you’ll see that I take that viewpoint? Look at my profile and go through some posts. You’ll see I’ve defended players when other guys have said so and so isn’t very good. I’ve also gone in on players who others have exalted and said look at x y and z. 
 

But relative to other PGA Tour players Ian Poulter is not a great player in my opinion. Sergio I will back off a little bit on he did pick up a Players and ANGC so he’s up there but I don’t think either of them are great players. 

 

Yeah, sorry, that last comment wasn't specifically directed at you.  I just tacked it on to the post as a personal rant.

 

Agreed on Poulter and Garcia, although Poulter IS a great Ryder Cup player.  The "great" designation from a career standpoint only belongs to a very few golfers - Jack, Tiger, Arnie, Hagan, Jones, etc.  There are a lot of very, very good golfers, but few "great" ones.

[BNGL]

11 minutes ago, ShowMe said:

 

Yeah, sorry, that last comment wasn't specifically directed at you.  I just tacked it on to the post as a personal rant.

 

Agreed on Poulter and Garcia, although Poulter IS a great Ryder Cup player.  The "great" designation from a career standpoint only belongs to a very few golfers - Jack, Tiger, Arnie, Hagan, Jones, etc.  There are a lot of very, very good golfers, but few "great" ones.

True. 
 

one of the reasons I get kinda fired up about this is a few years ago Paul got roughed up over his comments about the Euro Tour and winning on the PGA Tour. Poulter responded with something along the lines of a Ryder Cup record recently… which maybe is important to him and should be he’s a fine player. But if I was player, I’d be a little miffed if people only remembered me for my Ryder Cup abilities because that means I sucked (relative to my peers) and didn’t win enough. 

[BNGL]

20 minutes ago, Oldboy said:

Its an exhibition at the end of the day. Sure it has a bit of history but really some of this hoopla is manufactured for sure.  I mean the comp was altered because GB&I kept getting their a** handed to em. So this isn't some event like .. say the Olympics.  (which a few guys skipped without anyone crapping their undies.)  Its a showcase at the end of the day .. that happens to make a ton of money for .. someone.  Like has been mentioned maybe if the money made went to charity people, including Koepka, would feel differently.  I appreciate someone speaking their mind.  I also think maybe he should sit it out

If the money went to players they’d feel differently. 

[3whacker]

11 hours ago, elwhippy said:

Drop the President's Cup as the US gets to think winning is easy. When the motivated Europe team arrive they are over confident and get thumped. 

if they really wanted to make it interesting combine the two and send three squads and play a cutthroat/knockout type Round robin format, I wouldnt mind seeing the Euros against the International team every once in a while

[BNGL]

19 minutes ago, 3whacker said:

if they really wanted to make it interesting combine the two and send three squads and play a cutthroat/knockout type Round robin format, I wouldnt mind seeing the Euros against the International team every once in a while

What would be great is the winner of the Ryder cup gets a bye into the next Ryder Cup and then the loser of the RC plays the winner of the PC to determine the Ryder Cup for the next year. If that makes sense

[dongodfrey]

I watched the BMW here at wentworth the weekend

sure glad billy H isn’t playing, he was brilliant for 4 days,

luckily Brooks is still going, he doesn’t fancy it already !!!

what is that all about

[NJBigFish22]

4 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

You're probably correct.

 

So what's the answer, what is happening over the last 20 or whatever years isn't getting the best of what the US have to offer.

 

I'd love to be team captain - I'd have no issue kicking anyone off the team (assuming that I could) if they weren't committed. More importantly, the captain has to add to motivation, not just be a figurehead & selector.

Remember this is an odd year, usually the captain only gets 2 picks, so I think with automatic qualifiers it would be hard to kick some one of cause a perceived lack of patriotism.  The only real way to get tour pros excited, would be to put up $25 million or some other dollar amount.  After all green is usually the first color after Red, White and Blue.

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, JohnnyCashForever said:

IMO, this is faulty logic.  If RC were stroke play, then you might be on to something.  But you said it yourself, RC is match play.  Two different beasts with two different approaches to winning.  In one, you're playing against a field of hundreds.  Managing risk is paramount.  In the other, you're playing against one defined opponent.  Managing momentum is more important.  Stroke play is more objective/risk-off while match play is more emotional/risk-on.  Match play prowess is a just a different skill set.  If you buy that, then it's not too far of a stretch to appreciate how one's match play record can be held in high esteem independent of their stroke play record.  

 

It wasn't as much a statement about ability but about perceived ability based upon what you are being asked to do and how you are measured.

 

I am in agreement with BNGL.  You don't have to bring up a Ryder Cup record if you have "better" accolades.  You bring it up when you are stretching to make an argument that a guy is good.

 

2 hours ago, BNGL said:

Then why aren’t the great Ryder cup players dominating the one match play event a year? 

 

Where is that Morgan Freeman "He has a point you know" meme?

 

2 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Isn't that the point?  They're great Ryder Cup players.  And since it's Ryder Cup time, their presence and Ryder Cup record are quite relevant.  Sergio and Poulter were picked for a reason.  Their careers outside of the Ryder Cup are irrelevant this time of year.

 

I think the point that was being made was that nobody really cares about them until Ryder Cup time because they are mostly only good Ryder Cuppers.

 

1 hour ago, Pmookie said:

I’m glad Azinger did this! Koepka’s such an egotistical whiner. I wish they would sub him out!!!

 

Seems a bit harsh.  I am no Bruce fan but he was just answering questions that were asked.  He gave his opinion.  I tend to agree with how he presented it.  Ryder Cup is sort of a drain as you "are supposed to be" concerned with the play of other people when 99% of the year you worry about you.  

 

I have already posted it but I'll say it again, if you perform at a level that you are supposed to, then none of the "team building" and strategical stuff matters.  Media pumps the tires for all that comradery mess.  Just play golf.

 

1 hour ago, Oldboy said:

I think that's the point.  Ryder Cup on Jack's CV is nowhere near the top.  Its an afterthought

 

And so it should be on everyone's.  If it is insignificant for him, it should be for the random guy with three wins in ten years.  If Ryder Cup record is what you need to dredge up to make the argument someone is a player then that is not a strong argument.

[NJBigFish22]

1 hour ago, ShowMe said:

 

Awww.  Brooksie can barely see his personal team.  I'll bet he can't bring his personal chef along either. 

 

And he can't take a nap.  And he has to go to team meetings.  OMG!  That's horrible.

 

I really feel for him...

All these athletes take naps.  But not being able to see your team is an issue, what if Brooks, Tiger or anyone else wasn’t allowed to see their physical therapist or masseuse prior to a round, which in a normal week they do to get ready.  Brooks made a comment that caddies aren’t in the team rooms, kind of excluded, that is a negative as well.  Caddie/player are more of a team than the players on the Ryder Cup Team, and the players are more likely to listen to them than the captain.  

Edited September 16, 2021 by NJBigFish22

[smashdn]

Nap > cheering on morning fourball from just inside the ropes

[mikewohlwend]

1 hour ago, BNGL said:

What would be great is the winner of the Ryder cup gets a bye into the next Ryder Cup and then the loser of the RC plays the winner of the PC to determine the Ryder Cup for the next year. If that makes sense

 

I like this idea.  Besides there would be bitching that the Presidents Cup isn't as important.