Two different balls for pros and amateurs

[isaacbm]

I was having a conversation the other day with a couple buddies. None of us are super interested in watching anything other than the PGA tour. But all decided that if they change the rules to make a special tour ball that goes shorter, we would all abandon watching the PGA tour and watch liv golf. 
I honestly can’t think of anything worse than having the pros play different equipment than we do.  One of the best parts of the game is to be able to compare yourself to what the best in the world do.

 

To me it’s the equivalent of watching a marathon while everybody is wearing 10 pound ankle weights and then I get to brag but I have the same time as them. 
 

Thoughts? 

[jholz]

I'm not sure I'd abandon the PGA Tour for LIV over the issue, but I do completely agree with you. 

 

We should all be playing the same game with the same rules and equipment. 

 

I personally think the issue has more to do with courses than it does equipment.

 

Like many others, I'd love to see the tour guys come out and tackle some goat tracks from time to time. 

[larrybud]

I don't want to see goat tracks, but limiting distance could be as simple as slowing the fairways down.

 

I'd die to play super fast fairways like they did in the rocket mortgage. My course waters so much that you get mud balls in the middle of summer. I'd gain 30 yards if they set the course up like they did at the Detroit Golf Club.

 

No bifurcation. No, never.

[Notashank]

The ball is out of control. All pros on tour should play the same ball. It can be made by different manufacturers but the constructions needs to be the same. The public can play it also. Just call it tour spec. Not that it really matters the game now is no accuracy, hit it as far as possible, the courses have no ruff. Look at the tournament this past week. 26 under  it’s a driving distance and putting contest. 

[ksher84]

Why is this such a big deal if they all have access to the same balls/equipment?  I want to see people hit far and shoot low

[phizzy30]

I can see where this is going.........Most of the guys on tour don't have a problem with the ball going too far.  Like I said before, only the old heads and a very small percentage of the PGA Tour take exception to this.  Majority rules. 

[Trippels]

Bifurcation is for commies.

"All golfers are equal, but some are more equal than others."

[bobfoster]

I really must agree with the OP. 

 

I think, however, there are two different issues here. The first is distance, the second is the possibility of rules bifurcation as one means of handling distance.

 

Currently, the USGA/R&A consider increasing distance to be a real long-term problem. Due to the science behind equipment, and the science behind training and swing optimization (the technology right now really is remarkable at the pro level), distance really is something they believe they have to address. There's a small, but growing number of guys on tour that actually have a shot at reaching even a 600' par 5 in two. And even downstream at the amateur level, there's more and more able to hit a 500' par 5 in two. Was playing my favorite local course this weekend, got paired with these two guys that were actually pretty bad, but had positively ferocious swing speeds. On the rare times when they hit the fairway, they were at least 325' out. (Never saw that 10 years ago). A buddy of mine owns the course. Spent a lot of money lengthening it last winter, but said he's now done buying any more land. Lengthening courses is expensive to do, and more expensive to maintain over time. 

 

And the USGA/R&A is also starting to obsess on that. They are trying to be both environmentally and water conscious these days. They do not want course owners to think that PGAT events should require 600' par 5s, and local amateur courses to need 450' par 4s. So they are struggling with how to adjust equipment (which seems a lot better approach than forcing course management to just add sheer yardage). There aren't exactly easy answers here. 

 

The reality is, however, over the past decade the difference between a decent (70s - 80s) amateur and the pros has gotten much bigger. The pros are now achieving distance and precision that I've never seen in the 50+ years I've been playing golf. The rules bodies do understand that. Their first (rudimentary) attempt to handle the distance problem (at the time called "Tiger-proofing" courses) was to implement the wedge rule in 2010. Restrict wedges to deliberately try to punish the bomb-and-gouge game. Was also their first attempt at bifurcation (i.e., different rules for pros and amateurs). But it was not rules bifurcation, it was implementation bifurcation. OEMs were not allowed to produce any new clubs that didn't meet the new specs after 2012, and the pros had to game them, but amateurs could continue using them if the had them (until, in fact, 2024, you'll still be legal - according to the RoG - with U grooves if you are playing a casual skins round with buddies this weekend). 

 

So that brings us to the OP's simple - but actually pretty deep - issue. The USGA/R&A really do not want to continue to put the burden of dealing with growing distance entirely on course owners. They know it is an equipment issue. Their first toe in the water (just in the past year) was limiting shaft length from 48" to 46" (which is kind of meaningless since it affected so few golfers - I mean, Phil whined about it, but he pretty much whines about everything). But they did something interesting, released it not as a strict RoG, but as a "model local rule", that the pro tours (or even any local club) could voluntarily adopt. The PGAT and DPT did almost immediately adopt it. 

 

But here's the thing - and why I so strongly agree w/ the OP here. I've played a lot of sports over the years (starting in the 1960s, was a teen in the 1970s). And virtually every sport has "bifurcated" pro/amateur since then. Played Little League in the 60s - a hardball and a wooden bat (there was no such thing as an aluminum bat, and only girls played softball). These days all Little League is with aluminum bats. And even (since 2011 or so) HS baseball can use "BBCOR" aluminum. Only college and the pros need to use wooden bats.

 

When I was a kid, I played basketball. There was just "a basketball". I went into Dicks to buy one a couple years ago (my community has a court). Was actually kind of shocked to see three or fours different sizes of basketballs. Was like, WTF? 

 

Same with tennis - racquet and ball requirements are different.

 

And there will be no "deflategate" in HS football. 

 

Point is, golf is different, and I hope it stays that way. There's no aluminum bats vs. wooden bats. When I shoot an 84 and watch a pro shoot a 64 on the PGAT, I get that I had 20 more strokes, but love it that it was playing the same Prov1 I did, with the same driver and wedge restrictions I used playing my round (though on a much more difficult course than I usually play).

 

The USGA/R&A are going to impose some (as yet unknown) equipment restrictions in the next couple years. I'm personally really hoping they don't choose to bifurcate (even if it would make it easier for me). On those rare occasions when I break 80 (I'm old), I love doing it knowing it was with the same equipment Rory is using, playing by the identical rule Cam Smith played by to win the 150th Open.

 

I do not play golf because it is easy. I play it because it is impossibly hard.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by bobfoster

[Lord Viking]

Tiger said the pro's should play a spinnier ball

[Jc0]

On 8/1/2022 at 12:43 PM, larrybud said:

I don't want to see goat tracks, but limiting distance could be as simple as slowing the fairways down.

 

I'd die to play super fast fairways like they did in the rocket mortgage. My course waters so much that you get mud balls in the middle of summer. I'd gain 30 yards if they set the course up like they did at the Detroit Golf Club.

 

No bifurcation. No, never.

 

Tour is deferent then your average track. A soft course on tour plays way easier than a fast one. They keep the fairways fast so the ball has a higher chance of rolling into the rough. 

[philly2kuk]

Bring back balatas, that would reduce distances!

[larrybud]

3 hours ago, Jc0 said:

 

Tour is deferent then your average track. A soft course on tour plays way easier than a fast one. They keep the fairways fast so the ball has a higher chance of rolling into the rough. 

 

Closer to the hole in the rough is better than back and in the FW.

[PhilsFanDrew]

3 hours ago, Jc0 said:

 

Tour is deferent then your average track. A soft course on tour plays way easier than a fast one. They keep the fairways fast so the ball has a higher chance of rolling into the rough. 

 

It has a higher chance of rolling in the rough if the fairways are tight but if they are so wide that it can roll for 50 yards before getting into the rough it could make it a wedge distance approach.   That is vastly different than a narrower fairway where it hits and rolls less than 10 yards into the deeper rough leaving a longer approach with a more difficult lie.

[Stuart_G]

On 8/1/2022 at 1:34 PM, isaacbm said:

I was having a conversation the other day with a couple buddies. None of us are super interested in watching anything other than the PGA tour. But all decided that if they change the rules to make a special tour ball that goes shorter, we would all abandon watching the PGA tour and watch liv golf. 
I honestly can’t think of anything worse than having the pros play different equipment than we do.  One of the best parts of the game is to be able to compare yourself to what the best in the world do.

 

To me it’s the equivalent of watching a marathon while everybody is wearing 10 pound ankle weights and then I get to brag but I have the same time as them. 
 

Thoughts? 

 

 

No disrespect intended and I do get it - but if the average joe thinks the way they play now has any resemblance to the tour, they're fooling themselves.   Courses are better maintained and kept pristine for a decent time before the event starts.  Greens are faster and in better condition, fairways much better shape, bunkers maintained much better.  And we don't have full galleries helping us find our balls when they go astray.  On top of that is all the local rules they have to work with which are not a part of the 'normal' game.

 

Sure, some very few get the opportunity to play tour quality courses - but even then it's never quite the same and it's only a tiny percentage.

 

However the reality is that there is already plenty of bifurcation going on.  A bit more is not really going to make much difference.

 

But if that illusion was important enough to me AND IF I had the inclination, different standard for balls would not impede my ability to compare my game to theirs.   But the reality (for me) is that my appreciation for their level of play has no dependence on my level of play.  And my judgement of my own level of play has nothing to do with their level of play.

 

But that's just my viewpoint.  I have nothing against alternative viewpoints.   So if that's not enough for you (which is fine by me),  keep in mind that nothing would be stopping you from using the same ball they would be limited to using.

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Stuart_G

[Pepperturbo]

On 8/1/2022 at 7:36 PM, bobfoster said:

I do not play golf because it is easy. I play it because it is impossibly hard.

Having been a jock since HS, I agree with your observations. 

 

I was a league bowler, and tennis player, but the sport I look back on most were all the years CAT bicycle racing, where my bike is so technologically advanced, 16lbs, you could see Pros in TDF riding similar.  I still like testing myself and the idea of playing a golf ball and equipment that pros play.  My ball is DASH-ProV1x.  Yes, it's a low-spin ball that matches nicely to my hit the sh** out of the ball mentality.  LOL

 

Though I am older and no longer seeking to hit the ball as long as pros, I still love playing tournament tracks after an event, where I can hit the ball solid and further than many 10-30yrs my junior.  I like measuring up to being the best compared to others.  So, bifurcation is not for me.  Seems those amateurs that want bifurcation, gave up testing themselves long ago.  They now just look for ways to make the game easier, as they have nothing invested as far as ownership is concerned. 

 

As you say, golf is hard, no matter what index you have.  This ole man was not feeling strong last weekend but still covered all the carry yardages, and walked off with 76.  Every one of those 76 strokes was against the PGA, not the 50 something's I was playing with.  I knew they could be beat, even with their strong lofted irons and distance balls.  Dang I love this game.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Pepperturbo

[HandsomeMatt]

Just spitballing here, because I honestly don't care much about the Tour (gasp!)  , what if, at certain courses , they just took away driver? OR any club spec'ing out at a certain degree of loft ?  "it's a 13 club course this week"  or say it's "a 13* loft or higher track"  . I'd think that would be a heck of a lot easier to enforce and navigate....

[CROUSE99]

The idea of bifurcation doesn't bother me.  If it happens and you want to compare yourself to the pros, all you have to do is play with the equipment or balls that are required on tour.  The rest of us old short hitters can continue to play equipment that goes some way to preserving the distance we had way back when.

[Stuart_G]

21 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Though I am older and no longer seeking to hit the ball as long as pros, I still love playing tournament tracks after an event, where I can hit the ball solid and further than many 10-30yrs my junior.  I like measuring up to being the best compared to others.  So, bifurcation is not for me.

 

Nothing wrong with that.

 

Personally I don't care one way or another when it comes to bifurcation.

 

But ... since I dont' mind playing the devil's advocate  🥵   😆

 

21 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

 

Seems those amateurs that want bifurcation, gave up testing themselves long ago. 

 

Well first of all, not being bothered by the concept of bifurcation is not the same as wanting it.

 

Second, that's pretty narrow minded to think that's the only valid way to test oneself. 

 

Unless you want to actually go and try to Monday qualify, what you're suggesting is not a test, it's no more than an ego trip.  Most am's don't have a clue at how bad or how far behind they are compared to real pros.  Playing the same equipment or the same ball or watching them on TV doesn't change any of that.

 

I should qualify that a bit.  It's an ego trip have no problem with people taking.  Lots of different ways to get enjoyment out this game.  But to advocate that it's any kind of valid test is pretty far fetched.

 

21 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

They now just look for ways to make the game easier, as they have nothing invested as far as ownership is concerned. 

 

Changing the game for the pros doesn't have any effect on how easy the game is for amateurs.

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Stuart_G

[Pepperturbo]

50 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Nothing wrong with that.

 

Personally I don't care one way or another when it comes to bifurcation.

 

But ... since I dont' mind playing the devil's advocate  🥵   😆

 

 

Well first of all, not being bothered by the concept of bifurcation is not the same as wanting it.

 

Second, that's pretty narrow minded to think that's the only valid way to test oneself. 

 

Unless you want to actually go and try to Monday qualify, what you're suggesting is not a test, it's no more than an ego trip.  Most am's don't have a clue at how bad or how far behind they are compared to real pros.  Playing the same equipment or the same ball or watching them on TV doesn't change any of that.

 

I should qualify that a bit.  It's an ego trip have no problem with people taking.  Lots of different ways to get enjoyment out this game.  But to advocate that it's any kind of valid test is pretty far fetched.

 

 

Changing the game for the pros doesn't have any effect on how easy the game is for amateurs.

 

You and I are from different schools of measure and success.

[tatertot]

Can you imagine the legal battle if the PGA Tour took away Titleist and competitors biggest billboard? It would be ugly.

[Stuart_G]

47 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

You and I are from different schools of measure and success.

 

Apparently. 

 

Although while success can be totally subjective, a valid measure should be independent of the school that taught it or what level is used to judge success.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Stuart_G

[bellview17]

There is no answer, ball, clubs, conditions.

All needs changed at pro level. But none will.

I actually enjoy watching the pros tear it up and to go low, minus the US Open. Think of the Open this year at St. Andrews, great golf and the best player won. 

[Cicero]

I don’t think they need to do anything else.  They have limits in place on the ball and the equipment.  They can set the courses up to protect par if they want.  They can set it up for a shootout.  Rolling the ball back by increasing spin or however they do it penalizes the fastest players for being fast, in a sport that by its very nature causes super fast guys to limit their speed in order to play at the highest level in the first place.  Everyone playing the same ball penalizes everyone but those for whom that ball is a fit.  The most fair thing to do is to allow everyone to play the ball that fits their game, and then let the best player win.  

[gioreeko]

Grow the rough out way more. Problem solved

[GHIN n Juice]

On 8/4/2022 at 11:33 AM, Pepperturbo said:

You and I are from different schools of measure and success.

Yeah, yours is fictional and only exists in your head, lol.

Edited August 6, 2022 by GHIN n Juice

[jobin]

Plz Turbo, tell us again your age.  Hard to believe you have learned so little about 'self'.  But hey, pump yourself up if that's your game.

 

And Foster needs a 90 day retreat at the Iowa Writers Workshop to pare down the non-stop ramblings. Bob, do you know 'KISS'?  Try it someday.

 

Both you guys on 'ignore'.  

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 8/4/2022 at 9:33 AM, Pepperturbo said:

You and I are from different schools of measure and success.

 

I find myself in the top 1% of male American golfers by my measure...

 

...'course I measure myself against other golfers by height. 

[sharkiesj]

On 8/4/2022 at 9:33 AM, Pepperturbo said:

You and I are from different schools of measure and success.

Thank god…

[Pepperturbo]

2 minutes ago, sharkiesj said:

Thank god…

He's NOT going to like your motive here.  But good luck with that.

[J_Tizzle]

I like that we play the same rules/equipment as the pros (for the most part), but if we changed anything between the two, I'd say soften some of the rules for ams.  Of course most people would say "most ams don't play by the rules anyways so whats the point of changing the rules", and thats a fair point in all honesty.  I just think if you have some buddies you play with and you like to play by the rules, like going back to drop for a lost ball is always one that of course makes sense, but it's an opportunity for a couple of bad swings to back a course up pretty quickly if EVERYONE played by the rules.