LIV Tour Discussion Thread (* NO POLITICS *)

Titleist99 · February 6

3 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

Its the third year of the experiment. There are a few constants 200k-300k viewers no matter how much LIV throws at it. If you told Norman three years ago he will spend billions and have 300k viewers to show for it, he would have laughed in your face but here we are. There is a strong chance LIV will be closed out of a deal with the PGAT. Spieth has already made it clear they dont need them. Is Phil's and Dustin's contract up this year? Now what?

I think that LIV Golf proved Sunday that if there was no PGAT, the golfing public would be force to watch their product.🙂

Nothing to do now but sign some more players with another $2Billion.

Titleist99 · February 6

49 minutes ago, wedgegame said:

Is it really undeniable? A hot prospect in Dunlap just won as an am last week, and this week we had another up and comer competing against a recent major winner. Eric Cole was a great story last year, Aberg got his first win, Fowler, Day and Villegas had comeback wins, a Canadian won the Canadian Open for the first time ever resulting in Adam Hadwin getting the spear from a security guard. All of this contributed to viewership growing year over year, so I would say that it is deniable, and in fact I would argue that it was more interesting than previous years despite the names that went to play on LIV.

Someone asked why people get annoyed with others hyping LIV and it's statements like these that do it for me. LIV can't be talked about without taking shots at the PGA Tour or accompanied by statements that are disproven with just an ounce of research or basic observation. And it's not hating on LIV to point out such statements.

As for the areas you identified where LIV needs to get better, I agree on all points.

The viewing numbers support your statement. Viewership was up in 2023 vs 2022.

I and most I know feel the same way. LIV fans prop up LIV Golf to nauseating levels.

Tearing down the PGAT is no way to gain LIV fans.

grm24 · February 6

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

Agree it’s good

Too bad the pebble got rained out, be good to see how it would’ve compared, did a significant portion of people who watched liv watch because the PGA tour event was canceled Sunday?

But overall I’d be liv didn’t get the equivalent of 1MM global viewers in some combination on Sunday.

I put it on, didn’t watch, but would have watched more if BK, Rahm, and Cam were battling.

But the key is to merge the tours and get all the best guys playing together again somewhat regularly

Interesting that those numbers don't appear to show the PGA Tour ratings from the final round on Sunday. In spite of CBS replaying Saturdays 3rd round and some of the final round from last year CBS still had over 1.21 million viewers. So while the other tour had 432k viewers, the PGA Tour replays still drew nearly 3x the amount of viewers.

HulaGolfMom · February 6

https://x.com/NoLayingUp/status/1754893271988306371?s=20

Louis_Posture · February 6

1 hour ago, tyland42 said:

Then why does the PGA Tour even recognize them?

At the inception of the LIV Tour I believe PGA Tour management was too ignore LIV and, or ignore any players who left the PGA Tour to join LIV. And this strategy made good business sense because there was no possible way to compete with billions of Saudi dollars. But the lawsuit against the PGA Tour, and the threat of losing all its cash reserves to lawyers, forced the PGA Tour management to engage in discussion with LIV Tour management.

woahnelly · February 6

38 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

I think that LIV Golf proved Sunday that if there was no PGAT, the golfing public would be force to watch their product.🙂

Nothing to do now but sign some more players with another $2Billion.

Or could be the average PGAT viewer doesn't know what a CW is. "Is NCIS on yet honey?" 😂

Titleist99 · February 6

30 minutes ago, grm24 said:

Interesting that those numbers don't appear to show the PGA Tour ratings from the final round on Sunday. In spite of CBS replaying Saturdays 3rd round and some of the final round from last year CBS still had over 1.21 million viewers. So while the other tour had 432k viewers, the PGA Tour replays still drew nearly 3x the amount of viewers.

Wow! I now have all the facts; I retract my statement about the demise of the PGAT.

🤣🤣🤣

Edited February 6 by Titleist99

Barfolomew · February 6

What would ratings be if PGA and Liv switched stations.... CBS national network station will draw numbers much easier then the CW app for the exact same show.

Not apples to apples to compare ratings straight across..... PGA delivery method is established over decades and will get built in ratings where it takes effort to know and find the Liv tourneys.... if Liv was on NBC at same time as PGA on CBS then be a much better comparison of popularity...

Liv needs to land a Network channel if they want to compete evenly.... and as more stars cross over it would be an easy click of a button for fans to follow them... instead of going thru Roku etc...

MaineMariner · February 6

1 hour ago, widow-maker said:

No, it's not better. I'm watching less PGA Tour golf and no LIV at all. It's now down to watching the Majors and that's about it. I don't know how that grows golf but that's what they want you to believe. They've made it about the dollars and not about the competition.

Even if money were the major factor in their playing, we at least had the illusion that the competition was what drove the best players. Now we know that's not true in any sense and it's sobering. I would have never thought that Jon Rahm would run away from the competition, but here we are. It's just about the money and the Saudi's will spend whatever it takes. Driving me away from it instead of toward it.

I'd be shocked if this wasn't the prevailing public opinion of professional golf right now. The last few years have done the sport harm that I feel is irreparable. Whoever you want to blame for this mess, it's undeniable that the competition has taken a backseat to the bickering and the drama and the valuations and the contracts and the revenue streams and the market opportunities and etc. and etc.

It's just sad, man.

grm24 · February 6

11 minutes ago, Barfolomew said:

What would ratings be if PGA and Liv switched stations.... CBS national network station will draw numbers much easier then the CW app for the exact same show.

Not apples to apples to compare ratings straight across..... PGA delivery method is established over decades and will get built in ratings where it takes effort to know and find the Liv tourneys.... if Liv was on NBC at same time as PGA on CBS then be a much better comparison of popularity...

Liv needs to land a Network channel if they want to compete evenly.... and as more stars cross over it would be an easy click of a button for fans to follow them... instead of going thru Roku etc...

The CW just isn't just found of an app. The numbers being compared are for over the air tv stations in the USA. Not CBS versus an app. The CW is a real television network. It has over the air channels in literally every measured television market in the USA. It's an apples to apples comparison.

freeze16172002 · February 6

4 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

Ratings are increasing. 432k Americans on cw station for the final round. Factor in the people watching online, from apps, and the tv networks around the world it’s an improvement.

How about Saturday's 168k? you failed to mention that, head to head the PGAT had almost 2 million. You also failed to mention the PGAT were rained out Sunday. A 3rd failed to mention was the PGAT drew 1.211 million viewers on Sunday with a replay

italianstallion · February 6

16 minutes ago, Barfolomew said:

What would ratings be if PGA and Liv switched stations.... CBS national network station will draw numbers much easier then the CW app for the exact same show.

Not apples to apples to compare ratings straight across..... PGA delivery method is established over decades and will get built in ratings where it takes effort to know and find the Liv tourneys.... if Liv was on NBC at same time as PGA on CBS then be a much better comparison of popularity...

Liv needs to land a Network channel if they want to compete evenly.... and as more stars cross over it would be an easy click of a button for fans to follow them... instead of going thru Roku etc...

In a similar vein, how many Ferrari's would I have in my garage if I just switched which family I was born in to? Its not apples to apples to compare the 0-60 time of my Mustang to guys that bought Ferrari's with their parent's money. If I had that money it would be a much better comparison of speed...

freeze16172002 · February 6

18 minutes ago, Barfolomew said:

What would ratings be if PGA and Liv switched stations.... CBS national network station will draw numbers much easier then the CW app for the exact same show.

Not apples to apples to compare ratings straight across..... PGA delivery method is established over decades and will get built in ratings where it takes effort to know and find the Liv tourneys.... if Liv was on NBC at same time as PGA on CBS then be a much better comparison of popularity...

Liv needs to land a Network channel if they want to compete evenly.... and as more stars cross over it would be an easy click of a button for fans to follow them... instead of going thru Roku etc...

What network needs a 300k viewers for 5 hours? If they did just run 5 Buffy the Vampires and double those numbers

King_Slender · February 6

2 hours ago, widow-maker said:

No, it's not better. I'm watching less PGA Tour golf and no LIV at all. It's now down to watching the Majors and that's about it. I don't know how that grows golf but that's what they want you to believe. They've made it about the dollars and not about the competition.

Even if money were the major factor in their playing, we at least had the illusion that the competition was what drove the best players. Now we know that's not true in any sense and it's sobering. I would have never thought that Jon Rahm would run away from the competition, but here we are. It's just about the money and the Saudi's will spend whatever it takes. Driving me away from it instead of toward it.

The only thing preventing fans from seeing the best play together is the obstinance of the PGA Tour.

The vision of LIV was that it would be treated as any other tour is treated around the world. Now granted, the 54 hole format is a difference, but it's only an unwillingness to come up with an equitable awarding of OWGR points that's preventing them playing together.

Who loses by this obstinance? The fans.

Titleist99 · February 6

29 minutes ago, Barfolomew said:

What would ratings be if PGA and Liv switched stations.... CBS national network station will draw numbers much easier then the CW app for the exact same show.

Not apples to apples to compare ratings straight across..... PGA delivery method is established over decades and will get built in ratings where it takes effort to know and find the Liv tourneys.... if Liv was on NBC at same time as PGA on CBS then be a much better comparison of popularity...

Liv needs to land a Network channel if they want to compete evenly.... and as more stars cross over it would be an easy click of a button for fans to follow them... instead of going thru Roku etc...

This is the very reason LIV/PIF needs the PGAT and its television affiliates/contacts.

If they partner with the tour, they'll also have access to the SSGs vast networks of business acquaintances. The PGAT gets added revenue for its members.

PIF gets instant legitimacy. LOL! What else does the PGAT get, more investors and more revenue. Heck, after the deal PIF might even sell a team.. 🤣

bcjim · February 6

16 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

The only thing preventing fans from seeing the best play together is the obstinance of the PGA Tour.

The vision of LIV was that it would be treated as any other tour is treated around the world. Now granted, the 54 hole format is a difference, but it's only an unwillingness to come up with an equitable awarding of OWGR points that's preventing them playing together.

Who loses by this obstinance? The fans.

Most of liv's main players are exempt to some or all majors.

Both tours have ruled preventing nonmembers from playing regular tournaments.

Livs ban is more stringent if anything.

Most of the main liv guys specifically accepted and acknowledged they were not going to be playing pgator events.

Several in fact basically celebrated this and were happy to leave the pga tour behind.

Phil had stated, iirc, that they don't WANT to play pga tour events.

And of course the liv serfs don't have any plausible claim to tee it up a pga event.

So, explain to us, again, about PGA Tour obstinance.

Tinkerer · February 6

Vegas and WM this weekend, the best players NOT competing against each other! As a fan, you miss out. That is the bottom line, the longer this goes the bleaker is the outcome for fans and our sport.

subrew · February 6

Tyrrell had to help his 19yo teammate Caleb Surrat check-in to his Las Vegas hotel, since they required someone 21 or over to sign off.

https://www.instagram.com/p/C3BP4mJuqQD/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Titleist99 · February 6

26 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

The only thing preventing fans from seeing the best play together is the obstinance of the PGA Tour.

The vision of LIV was that it would be treated as any other tour is treated around the world. Now granted, the 54 hole format is a difference, but it's only an unwillingness to come up with an equitable awarding of OWGR points that's preventing them playing together.

Who loses by this obstinance? The fans.

I think that you overestimate most PGAT fan's eagerness to see the defectors play tour golf again.🙂

freeze16172002 · February 6

41 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

The only thing preventing fans from seeing the best play together is the obstinance of the PGA Tour.

The vision of LIV was that it would be treated as any other tour is treated around the world. Now granted, the 54 hole format is a difference, but it's only an unwillingness to come up with an equitable awarding of OWGR points that's preventing them playing together.

Who loses by this obstinance? The fans.

The PGAT doesnt need the players who left, they will just develop new talent. Something LIV hasnt done. How did James Piot game develop on LIV

ahenderX · February 6

51 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

The only thing preventing fans from seeing the best play together is the obstinance of the PGA Tour.

The vision of LIV was that it would be treated as any other tour is treated around the world. Now granted, the 54 hole format is a difference, but it's only an unwillingness to come up with an equitable awarding of OWGR points that's preventing them playing together.

Who loses by this obstinance? The fans.

A 54-hole tournament is not the obstacle. No cut, the low average number of players per event, and no developmental tour ARE obstacles to getting OWGR status.

woahnelly · February 6

32 minutes ago, subrew said:

Tyrrell had to help his 19yo teammate Caleb Surrat check-in to his Las Vegas hotel, since they required someone 21 or over to sign off.

https://www.instagram.com/p/C3BP4mJuqQD/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Can he at least get into Sapphire when Legion win again this week?

woahnelly · February 6

10 minutes ago, freeze16172002 said:

The PGAT doesnt need the players who left, they will just develop new talent. Something LIV hasnt done. How did James Piot game develop on LIV

I think the Asian Tour will improve with some up and comers may trying to go the LIV route via that gateway, especially after seeing what Caleb won in his first week. Kieran Vincent can be good who is a rookie on LIV. Chacarra has had success of LIV, Puig has shown flashes. Maybe Piot was just never that good? 🤷‍♂️

drn92 · February 6

40 minutes ago, Tinkerer said:

Vegas and WM this weekend, the best players NOT competing against each other! As a fan, you miss out. That is the bottom line, the longer this goes the bleaker is the outcome for fans and our sport.

Pre-LIV the best really only competed in the same tournaments less than half the time. Majors, TPC, maybe Muirfield and Bay Hill and a couple others.

drn92

PhilsFanDrew · February 6

10 minutes ago, freeze16172002 said:

The PGAT doesnt need the players who left, they will just develop new talent. Something LIV hasnt done. How did James Piot game develop on LIV

So Talor Gooch's game didn't go to new heights since signing with LIV? He won once on the PGAT and won 3 times last year and was the individual champion. I know he's not super young but he is just in his prime years at 32. For an example of a Ludvig Aberg or Will Zalatoris that you give as a young guy breaking through on the PGAT there are others that make it through Korn Ferry that fizzle out in the PGAT and are never heard from again. There have also been success stories with relative unknown younger guys like David Puig or Eugenio Chacarra who have professional wins since joining LIV Golf that did secure their cards for this year. A blanket statement that LIV isn't developing anyone's talent just simply isn't true.

hunterdog · February 6

1 hour ago, freeze16172002 said:

How about Saturday's 168k? you failed to mention that, head to head the PGAT had almost 2 million. You also failed to mention the PGAT were rained out Sunday. A 3rd failed to mention was the PGAT drew 1.211 million viewers on Sunday with a replay

Not being argumentative, but a real question. Did a PGAT replay get 1.211 million viewers vs. 432k for LIV live?

Louis_Posture · February 6

1 hour ago, King_Slender said:

The only thing preventing fans from seeing the best play together is the obstinance of the PGA Tour.

The vision of LIV was that it would be treated as any other tour is treated around the world. Now granted, the 54 hole format is a difference, but it's only an unwillingness to come up with an equitable awarding of OWGR points that's preventing them playing together.

Who loses by this obstinance? The fans.

I consider Korn Ferry, LPGA, and PGA Tour golf all to have sensational fields with extremely highly talent level players. And those players are supporting the Tour organization which did great positive things for golf for about 60 years. So, I don't consider a Tour event or Major without some big name LIV players to be a lesser event.

Barfolomew · February 6

2 hours ago, grm24 said:

The CW just isn't just found of an app. The numbers being compared are for over the air tv stations in the USA. Not CBS versus an app. The CW is a real television network. It has over the air channels in literally every measured television market in the USA. It's an apples to apples comparison.

Nope..... We have Direct TV and no CW.... CW is an app at our house in Southern Cali.... as it is for many..... maybe not you

bcjim · February 6

20 minutes ago, drn92 said:

Pre-LIV the best really only competed in the same tournaments less than half the time. Majors, TPC, maybe Muirfield and Bay Hill and a couple others.

drn92

Exactly. Way less than half the time probably. And even when they DO have a high attendance of "top players" (whatever that means in a given week), often a lesser known player ends up winning.

The only specific golfers that have moved the needle are Woods (and to a much lesser extent) Phil. Then Rory, then Spieth maybe..?

Its the competition that matters. The competition does not matter at LIV. Winning PGA Tour events matters. Its like me playing my friends next weekend. It will be forgotten in 5 minutes after we settle up. When we play the club championship though, that will mean something. Not that any of us will win...💀

Frankensteins Monster · February 6

1 hour ago, drn92 said:

Pre-LIV the best really only competed in the same tournaments less than half the time. Majors, TPC, maybe Muirfield and Bay Hill and a couple others.

drn92

I see this argument often and it doesn’t hold up.

Four majors

Four WGCs

Four playoffs

Players

Rivera

Memorial

Bay Hill (Lost a lot recently)

Ryder/Presidents

Tournament of Champions

Traveler's

Waste Management

That’s basically an average of a tournament every other week where the best play against each other.

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LIV Tour Discussion Thread (* NO POLITICS *)