LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[Hawkeye77]

Rahm doesn’t play for the money - at least in ‘22. 
 

“I think on this side of things we should be thankful that LIV happened,” Rahm said. “I don’t know if those changes would have happened if LIV wasn’t in the picture. So to an extent, yeah, we should be thankful.

“(Money is) not why I started playing, it’s not the reason why I play,” Rahm said. 

 

Anyway …..

 

I enjoyed the LIV crap more when I ignored it - now on to #22 for the Hawks - hope she and they have a nice run in the tourney!

[bcjim]

Rahm left for the money.  Period.  It would have been silly not to,  I don't blame him.  But,  it's going to be a long 5 years for him, counting down the days until he can move on from liv.

[Titleist99]

25 minutes ago, bcjim said:

Rahm left for the money.  Period.  It would have been silly not to,  I don't blame him.  But,  it's going to be a long 5 years for him, counting down the days until he can move on from liv.

hey, wait, Rahm's contract is for five years? long five years listening to his nonsense.

[bscinstnct]

10 hours ago, tomjas said:

He literally said that he had lost faith in Monahan’s leadership 

 

Weird how facts bother you guys 

 

The facts are that with all the supposedly despicable behavior by Jay

 

Rahm required $600MM to leave 🤣

 

LIV had to pay $150MM+ for all there key players

 

From this they hav self admittedly produced basically “zero revenue”. They have less fan interest than like American Ninja Warrior

 

Their “product” is an abject failure

 

So, the fact is that all LIV has accomplished is making a small handful of golfers wealthy by paying them to not be seen by golf fans

 

And you wonder why LIV is universally despised?
 

The “brand” of LIV is not associated with great golf or innovation. It’s primarily associated with attempting to ruin the game for 90% golf fans. 
 

How’s them facts for ya ; )

Edited March 23 by bscinstnct

[tomjas]

16 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

The facts are that with all the supposedly despicable behavior by Jay

 

Rahm required $600MM to leave 🤣

 

LIV had to pay $150MM+ for all there key players

 

From this they hav self admittedly produced basically “zero revenue”. They have less fan interest than like American Ninja Warrior

 

Their “product” is an abject failure

 

So, the fact is that all LIV has accomplished is making a small handful of golfers wealthy by paying them to not be seen by golf fans

 

And you wonder why LIV is universally despised?
 

The “brand” of LIV is not associated with great golf or innovation. It’s primarily associated with attempting to ruin the game for 90% golf fans. 
 

How’s them facts for ya ; )

How’s it ruining the game?

 

It’s just another tour. 
 

There was a time when lots of top golfers played on the European Tour and that didn’t ruin the game 

[bscinstnct]

9 minutes ago, tomjas said:

How’s it ruining the game?

 

It’s just another tour. 
 

There was a time when lots of top golfers played on the European Tour and that didn’t ruin the game 

 

The Euro tour reflects the timeline of  popularity and fan interest of European golf fans

 

LIV has no fans 🤣

 

All they have done is make a few guys rich in order to not be seen playing on the pga tour and basically be seen by no one

 

 

Edited March 23 by bscinstnct

[tomjas]

17 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

The Euro tour reflects the timeline of  popularity and fan interest of European golf fans

 

LIV has no fans 🤣

 

All they have done is make a few guys rich in order to not be seen playing on the pga tour and basically be seen by no one

 

 

You didn’t answer the question 

 

How is it ruining the game?

[bscinstnct]

2 minutes ago, tomjas said:

You didn’t answer the question 

 

How is it ruining the game?

I did
 

 

All they have done is make a few guys rich in order to not be seen playing on the pga tour and basically be seen by no one

 

 

[tomjas]

Just now, bscinstnct said:

I did
 

 

All they have done is make a few guys rich in order to not be seen playing on the pga tour and basically be seen by no one

 

 

They’re being seen 

 

You just don’t like it because not everyone is playing on the PGAT

 

Sorry but the PGAT is not the game 

[bscinstnct]

4 minutes ago, tomjas said:

They’re being seen 

 

You just don’t like it because not everyone is playing on the PGAT

 

Sorry but the PGAT is not the game 

 

Worldwide interest in LIV declines every year 

 

Amazingly, in opposite correlation to how much absurd money they spend 🤣

 

Cant make this up, they are out of their element actually trying to build a business. Thats why besides LIV, they buy into already successful franchises. 
 

 

[tomjas]

1 minute ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Worldwide interest in LIV declines every year 

 

Amazingly, in opposite correlation to how much absurd money they spend 🤣

 

Cant make this up, they are out of their element actually trying to build a business. Thats why besides LIV, they buy into already successful franchises. 
 

 

Now do 2024 PGAT ratings and hedge fund investors 

[Hawkeye77]

11 hours ago, tomjas said:

He literally said that he had lost faith in Monahan’s leadership 

 

Weird how facts bother you guys 

 

Then pony up those facts - what did he say and when?

 

Hawks don't tip off until 2 pm, lol.

Edited March 23 by Hawkeye77

[bscinstnct]

8 minutes ago, tomjas said:

Now do 2024 PGAT ratings and hedge fund investors 

 

You just made my point ; )

[ahenderX]

11 hours ago, tomjas said:

He also said he’d lost faith in Jay

Just google the terms rahm monahan leadership and you will find several articles where Rahm stated he fully supported Monahan. These articles are from late summer 2023.

[Yorkshiregolf81]

32 minutes ago, tomjas said:

Now do 2024 PGAT ratings and hedge fund investors 

Believe it or not, the ratings for some years and events will be bad, and others will be good - and it has more to do with outside influences on the sport than the product or the players. It's like someone arguing that Premier league football is suffering because of the Saudi Pro League, just because they have Ronaldo and a few other mercenaries - they are suffering slightly from losing players like that, but nothing more. Saying that the ratings drops are solely related to LIV is not right - golf has an audience to appeal to, and it absolutely has to bring in younger players.

 

Back in the early 2000s, when Tiger wasn't there, the ratings literally fell off a cliff - but without anyone to point it out as if it was some kind of scripture of doom, it didn't matter; oh well, on to the next tournament. 

 

I've been to a LIV event. It was awful. You literally had no idea what was happening around the course, the music was terrible and it had all the feelings of a 'Shells Wonderful World of Golf' but without the charm and the respectful competition. I get why international fans are rooting for LIV - because the PGA tour for decades has pushed the thought that America is the only place for a professional tour, which is absolute nonsense; but if LIV stopped treating fans like idiots, and sold the game to them that they have always wanted - it would work. Oh, and literally no golf fan has ever switched on the TV because there is a massive winners cheque. 

 

Nobody that is a fan of golf, and LIV could with a straight face say that TPC this year was anything but utterly captivating, and this is without Tiger, Rahm, DJ, Brooks, Bryson and Niemann. It also doesn't help that the majority of golfers that LIV has managed to buy away from the PGA/DPWT have 0 charm or awareness; you would have absolutely picked their names as the most mercenary players out there(Cantlay a possible exception).  Condensing the tournament to a single round with 18 starting tees is total and absolute nonsense - you couldn't even run your club championship like this; it's a false positive for fans that was sold to them off the back of a deal with the babied pros that wanted to turn up for 5 hours a day and still have time for a fishing trip or an afternoon on the beach. At some point, LIV needs to address the fact that fans want a good product, and building theirs around the whims of millionaire golfers that wanted to do their very easy job much less and be paid more was a stupid idea - turn on the charm offensive, backpedal on the stupid format, appeal to fans that want to see competition and be patient. Otherwise, it's the same YouTube format every week and you might as well watch Rick Shiels try and break 80, with 5 off camera mulligans. 

 

If you want to drag people along to LIV, turn this into a proper tournament with a cut, or make it matchplay events that bring out more swash for your buck(le). LIV signed characters, and then expected them to shine in a format that doesn't have a natural finishing hole or a pressured environment for golf. The PGA tour has been weakened, but both tours can co-exist and offer fans something really special. 

Edited March 23 by Yorkshiregolf81

[Hawkeye77]

51 minutes ago, ahenderX said:

Just google the terms rahm monahan leadership and you will find several articles where Rahm stated he fully supported Monahan. These articles are from late summer 2023.

Yep, and after the PIF announcement more than once and often until he was gone.  All support for the PGA Tour, confidence in leadership.  One comment at the time of the PIF announcement that became the clickbait for media that a lot of players felt "a bit" betrayed, he didn't say that included him, and moved right into support which continued unabated until  ......  he was gone.  Those are indeed the facts.

[ronsc1985]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Yep, and after the PIF announcement more than once and often until he was gone.  All support for the PGA Tour, confidence in leadership.  One comment at the time of the PIF announcement that became the clickbait for media that a lot of players felt "a bit" betrayed, he didn't say that included him, and moved right into support which continued unabated until  ......  he was gone.  Those are indeed the facts.

Don't you guys realize that when negotiating a contract to leave your employer/company etc. you do not bash your current entity if you want to maximiser your new offer?  This is negotiation 101.

 

But by all means continue your bashing of an organization/people you proclaim to have no interest in.

Edited March 23 by ronsc1985

[Titleist84]

17 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Oh brother - old news.  Meeting and “wanting” their money are two different things. Enough already. 

Old news?  That article was from last week.  Here's one from 4 days ago, but sure "selecting potential investors" has nothing to do with money.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jay-monahan-pga-tour-pif-liv-golf-yasir-al-rumayyan-meeting-2024

 

Monahan did not provide any details on the rendezvous, only stating the conversation was “constructive and represents an important part of our due diligence process in selecting potential investors for PGA Tour Enterprises.

 

 

[RobS]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Yep, and after the PIF announcement more than once and often until he was gone.  All support for the PGA Tour, confidence in leadership.  One comment at the time of the PIF announcement that became the clickbait for media that a lot of players felt "a bit" betrayed, he didn't say that included him, and moved right into support which continued unabated until  ......  he was gone.  Those are indeed the facts.

If guys felt so betrayed, were so strongly opposed to elements of the Tour and or they thought that LIV was so amazing, PIF wouldn't have to drop 8 and 9 figures to sign guys up.  As it is, LIV has huge purses and a guaranteed check for every event.  Guys are making a lot of money playing that tour beyond the signing bonuses.  If established guys start moving to LIV, without big signing bonuses or any signing bonus, I might take stock in the reasoning beyond the money.  Are there any guys that feel so strongly about the LIV product that would bet on themselves and LIV's future to make the move without a bonus or guarantee beyond the current season?  

[Ghost of Snead]

3 hours ago, tomjas said:

They’re being seen 

 

You just don’t like it because not everyone is playing on the PGAT

 

Sorry but the PGAT is not the game 

 

Actually it is where the majority of fan interest lies - if the LIV product is where it's at, why didn't SSG partner directly with the PIF and bypass the PGAT ? 

[PedronNiall]

9 minutes ago, RobS said:

Are there any guys that feel so strongly about the LIV product that would bet on themselves and LIV's future to make the move without a bonus or guarantee beyond the current season?  

 

Pretty much an impossibility. The way the league is designed with 10k different items siphoning off money even for winning teams there's no actual pathway to earning a living by playing well there. The contract's initial payout is all the real money the guys have to get them through until they sign the next one. 

 

The claim was sponsors would buy stakes in individual teams. No one is dropping millions on the potential drawing power & performance of guys who already have checks and have no worry about eating even if they come in DFL. The league also doesn't get the draw actual team sports do, and even if it did its not like a few players on every single team would be worth the dollars only the top clubs/teams in futbol or racing and so on see. 

 

Their model has never made any sense. It's absolutely wild they had Norman helm such a lark when they could have hooked in top financial & sports advisors with actual insight for far less and likely built a world golf league with some drawing power. Nothing about the league is grounded in normal business reality. Only backers who care zero about sustainable business practices or costs of doing business would go this route to get a "legitimate" place in golf. 

 

Absolutely no one playing in the league thinks it's a pathway to great golf. For players like Neimann, it is a pathway to start out rich and know you can focus on just playing great golf elsewhere so your star can rise. From an objective position it's not hard to understand why people would take the guaranteed money, but that does nothing to change what the league is. 

[Hawkeye77]

46 minutes ago, Titleist84 said:

Old news?  That article was from last week.  Here's one from 4 days ago, but sure "selecting potential investors" has nothing to do with money.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jay-monahan-pga-tour-pif-liv-golf-yasir-al-rumayyan-meeting-2024

 

Monahan did not provide any details on the rendezvous, only stating the conversation was “constructive and represents an important part of our due diligence process in selecting potential investors for PGA Tour Enterprises.

 

 

 

And again, just because someone has a meeting doesn't mean they "want" PIF money - and you don't seem to understand the word "potential".  

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

19 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

 

Pretty much an impossibility. The way the league is designed with 10k different items siphoning off money even for winning teams there's no actual pathway to earning a living by playing well there. The contract's initial payout is all the real money the guys have to get them through until they sign the next one. 

 

The claim was sponsors would buy stakes in individual teams. No one is dropping millions on the potential drawing power & performance of guys who already have checks and have no worry about eating even if they come in DFL. The league also doesn't get the draw actual team sports do, and even if it did its not like a few players on every single team would be worth the dollars only the top clubs/teams in futbol or racing and so on see. 

 

Their model has never made any sense. It's absolutely wild they had Norman helm such a lark when they could have hooked in top financial & sports advisors with actual insight for far less and likely built a world golf league with some drawing power. Nothing about the league is grounded in normal business reality. Only backers who care zero about sustainable business practices or costs of doing business would go this route to get a "legitimate" place in golf. 

 

Absolutely no one playing in the league thinks it's a pathway to great golf. For players like Neimann, it is a pathway to start out rich and know you can focus on just playing great golf elsewhere so your star can rise. From an objective position it's not hard to understand why people would take the guaranteed money, but that does nothing to change what the league is. 

 

Yep.  Let's have intro songs, and nonstop loud music, and . . . . shorts, and teams, and not play 72 holes ---- all the silly hot take ideas rolled into one plus front loaded fat cats and "trust us they have to keep giving you OWGR points", lol . . . in general, nobody has cared or does care.  

 

Maybe the plan was to be way more successful waiving $$$$ around initially, I'm sure it was, but someone named Phil Mickelson and his "off the record" big mouth (and frankly his real unpopularity with peers along with Norman) pretty much killed any chance of a really damaging first blow to the Tour.  Now their biggest news is, haha, Anthony Kim - overshadowing Rahm in the world of recency clickbait (although getting Rahm was a big deal for sure - but folks seem to be getting over it just fine).

[bscinstnct]

The tours media deal extends to 2030z 700MM/ year. But we don’t know if certain performance in ratings needed to be maintained and even if not, if ratings are lower in the next few years, and LIV keeps weakening the field, 

 

the tour could be looking at lower media rights revenue 

 

Thats when things get bad because to keep the purses/top 20 share of purses high, they may need to cut payouts to lower finishers

 

This might be the only answer and necessary to maintain a highly competitive field with the majority of the top 20 in it. 
 

LIV has its own problems. 
 

What will BK Cam and DJ and the new strong performers be looking for to stay?

 

Will BK want to play closer to home and come back to the tour if LIV doesn’t give him $500MM?

 

LIV has media contracts to show its events in every part of the world. If US viewership can’t break a few hundred thousand on Sunday do they throw in the towel/lessen their “ask” from the tour?

 

Neither side wants to see things go this far but the battle seems pretty even at the moment with both sides dug in. 

 

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

16 hours ago, tomjas said:

My reading of the Rahm situation is that he felt betrayed by Monahan & decided to take the cash as a result 

 

Has been positive about LIV since then but that might be the money talking 

But it took >$500M for him to feel betrayed? OK 🤣

[Togatown22]

4 hours ago, tomjas said:

You didn’t answer the question 

 

How is it ruining the game?

It's ruined our ability as fans to watch the top golfers COMPETE against each other. 

I can't tell if your posts are serious.

[bscinstnct]

1 minute ago, Togatown22 said:

It's ruined our ability as fans to watch the top golfers COMPETE against each other. 

I can't tell if your posts are serious.

 

This is where LIVers say it’s all Jays fault and he should have just let them play in the LIV events. 
 

Theres a certain pride LIVers take in the tours troubles , that much is obvious 

[Hawkeye77]

9 minutes ago, Togatown22 said:

It's ruined our ability as fans to watch the top golfers COMPETE against each other. 

I can't tell if your posts are serious.

 

Good news for those that want to see them is the LIV guys that are really worth a darn will be at The Masters which is for a lot of golf fans the first event they pay attention to.  I'm sure all sorts of delicious story lines will be cooked up but for me, I love The Masters and can hardly wait for it to start. The event itself has a way of rising above the petty nonsense (despite attempts like last year for Norman and others to try and stir the pot beforehand).  

 

This whole LIV stuff has really, again for me, put the beauty of the women's event and the drive, chip and putt center stage at The Masters.

 

I hope Rory wins it - will be looking for a fat envelope to fall out of the green jacket Rahm helps him into!

Edited March 23 by Hawkeye77

[bcjim]

1 minute ago, bscinstnct said:

 

This is where LIVers say it’s all Jays fault and he should have just let them play in the LIV events. 
 

Theres a certain pride LIVers take in the tours troubles , that much is obvious 

And I'm sure the networks would have loved that. They give Jay 700M and he lets all the big stars just walk off and maybe slum it occasionally back on tour.  At best the next negotiation was starting at a much lower number and at worst the networks sue to lower their costs. In short, Jay of course, COULD NOT simply let them play events, even if he wanted to. Indeed, he had a duty to his business and business partners to make it as difficult as possible for them to leave.

[bscinstnct]

7 minutes ago, bcjim said:

And I'm sure the networks would have loved that. They give Jay 700M and he lets all the big stars just walk off and maybe slum it occasionally back on tour.  At best the next negotiation was starting at a much lower number and at worst the networks sue to lower their costs. In short, Jay of course, COULD NOT simply let them play events, even if he wanted to. Indeed, he had a duty to his business and business partners to make it as difficult as possible for them to leave.

Yes, 100%, and Rahm and pretty much any player who said they weren’t leaving because of this or that, “loyalty” or legacy, is full of it

 

They were just either scared it wasn’t really going to happen or they weren’t offered enough money

 

But as soon as Rahm saw it was real and they met his price, he was out the door and singing Greg’s tune

 

In retrospect BK sold himself very short 🤣 and he must be 😡 🤣

 

Imagine if he wins a major(s) this year and next? And Rahm doesn’t?!

 

BK will ask for a Billion cash 💰!

 

Thats Greg playing 5-D chess ♟️ though 

 

🤣