At what point is playing blades an advantage?

[Duffman57]

1 hour ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I find it interesting that I don't see blade users referring to CB users negatively, yet see plenty such commentary in the other direction.

 

I'm not interested in changing anyone's mind.  I've always been in the "you'll never know until you try" camp.  They won't, or they will.  Neither has a morality component.

 

People either don't realize, or forget, that blades have MOI too.  In some cases, even higher than the CBs that are lauded as so forgiving....

 

I was just looking through some of the MPF ratings for blades. I found something interesting about Morikawas bag. What I found was that while most people would think of wanting forgiveness as if you miss hit the shot heel or toe, and he doesn’t actually gain anything from that (or at least by the numbers, MOI which is stability for off center strikes) goes down for the p730 to p7mc, to p770 (which strikes me as weird, but whatever). But what happens is that he goes progressively lower in VCOG.  So he’s more so just playing with launch ability than forgiveness. Which I guess makes sense if the miss with his long irons is thin. 
 

But it brings up an interesting look into the physics of it all. If you have the speed and club path to do so, lower COG will increase launch but lower spin. So you would want progressively lower COG as you go through the set. But if you don’t have the speed with the lower irons you just want height. It’s all about delivery of the club. When you’re hitting shots more down on the ball, you want a higher cog and when you’re more level with your aoa you want a lower moi. It makes perfect sense why he would do this to me. 
 

I have 2 sets of clubs, MP32 a and M5s as a 15 hcper (albeit my ball striking is fairly good for a 15hcp), but i noticed more and more was there was very rarely a miss where i felt was significantly helped by the m5. If I missed it I missed with both. Just anicdotal evidence. But I think Launch and spin have more to do with finding the correct iron than anything else. I think if you have the speed blades aren’t going to hurt you as much as most think they will.  I think the numbers (cog location, moi etc) matter more than anything else. Modern and older blades seem to have very different profiles with modern blades raising the COG for more spin for better players while older blades seem to have the COG way down lower. For example titleist 690 is at .735 and the 620 is at .852. For reference a ball sits at .840. That’s a small raise in MOI but a very big difference relatively.
 

There’s my physics deep dive which provably didn’t help anyone but if you want information there’s some of it haha. 

[Nard_S]

33 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... I will never understand why you guys fight so hard against CB's.

Because that's all that's ever talked about. Always and it's a false flag of nonsense. A giant head fake that has a warped & out sized presence in the mind space of the game. Been that way for 30 years and it continues on.

 

Guys want to break 90 everyday? Wedge & putter will do that but no, we need GI on #7i.

Guys want to break 80 on bad day? Split fairways at high percentage. But no, we need GI on #.6i.

Now it even got to the absurd point of you have to drive it 275 then choose from 4 different club types, wedge, iron, or hybrid or metal to be a "player". 

 

"Wow he's a real dude with his 4 Vokeys, 3 hybrids and SGI clubs. He's so smart".....thanks, I like my two types of clubs to play with, it's all I really can handle with the little time I have to dedicate. My #4i swings like my #8i, with none of the shifting sand of nonsense the tech force feeds upon me. I played CB's for 15 years, played MB's for the same. My guess I'm leaving about 1.5 on my index due to that. So what. I hit fairways, I shoot in the 70's. I hate practicing above 200 but that's where I'm weakest, I will fix that too, if I hit the practice greens I can play scratch level 100 feet in.

 

My point is wedge, putter and tee club is where all the action is. It's not in the MOI of irons but that's all that ever gets talked about. We keep glossing over realities that would move the ball faster into the hole. I'm sure someone will say "S.G. says GIR's drop scores"  Yeah it does. You know what really drives good GIR average? Good tee ball. Hogan said as much 70 years ago. Best iron player ever (pre-Tiger), knew exactly what was what.

 

 

[Duffman57]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

So you don't find blade guys disputing CB guys opinions as being negative towards them ? OK, same-same but different. What ev.

 

And sure, I'm betting you're right and some blades do have more MOI than some CBs (likely "player's CBs) but again, what ev. Pretty much everybody's acknowledge that MOI isn't the be all and end all.

 

To each his/her own. 

But it does give an interesting look into what exactly blades are achieving. A lot of people hang onto older blades and I think it’s because as mentioned above blades have slowly increased COG so newer blades are higher to spin more and that likely promotes more guys using combo sets like Homa, Morikawa etc. 

[mahonie]

20 minutes ago, Duffman57 said:

But it does give an interesting look into what exactly blades are achieving. A lot of people hang onto older blades and I think it’s because as mentioned above blades have slowly increased COG so newer blades are higher to spin more and that likely promotes more guys using combo sets like Homa, Morikawa etc. 

I went combo set back in 1996 (Wilson Staff Progressives...fantastic clubs...after going for a fitting for Ping Eye 2s would you believe!). Played them for 9 years, then had a 3-year break from the game. When I came back, I went down the route of players CB and played Nike Split Cavity for 3 years. They were a very underrated set of irons. After a dabble with MacGregor MT Pro Cs (wrong swing weight) I caught a bargain set of brand new Mizuno MP4s.

 

Since playing them, all of my lowest scores since I started playing 40 years ago, have been with the MP4s in the bag and I'm not really sure why I put the Cobra combo set in my sig in my bag at all. Well, I suppose the main reason is that they are still relatively new and shiny!

[puttingmatt]

On 9/17/2022 at 9:31 PM, cliffhanger said:

I played blades about 4 years ago for one summer after 20 years of varying GI type irons. Statistically it was my best year for scoring and GIR's. Then last week I started to hit some blades again and just had my best two rounds of the year... so I am going to carry on with the blades for now. I play courses between 6700-7100 in yards and am currently at an 8 index, generally rounds are under 4 hours. I just want to play with what helps... even though it doesn't make sense that the blades would be the clubs to do so. I have searched for the "forgiveness" advantage for the better part of 30 years and I haven't found it. 

Nice post, especially the "forgiveness"

advantage which I can agree with

[mogc60]

1 hour ago, Nard_S said:

Because that's all that's ever talked about. Always and it's a false flag of nonsense. A giant head fake that has a warped & out sized presence in the mind space of the game. Been that way for 30 years and it continues on.

 

Guys want to break 90 everyday? Wedge & putter will do that but no, we need GI on #7i.

Guys want to break 80 on bad day? Split fairways at high percentage. But no, we need GI on #.6i.

Now it even got to the absurd point of you have to drive it 275 then choose from 4 different club types, wedge, iron, or hybrid or metal to be a "player". 

 

"Wow he's a real dude with his 4 Vokeys, 3 hybrids and SGI clubs. He's so smart".....thanks, I like my two types of clubs to play with, it's all I really can handle with the little time I have to dedicate. My #4i swings like my #8i, with none of the shifting sand of nonsense the tech force feeds upon me. I played CB's for 15 years, played MB's for the same. My guess I'm leaving about 1.5 on my index due to that. So what. I hit fairways, I shoot in the 70's. I hate practicing above 200 but that's where I'm weakest, I will fix that too, if I hit the practice greens I can play scratch level 100 feet in.

 

My point is wedge, putter and tee club is where all the action is. It's not in the MOI of irons but that's all that ever gets talked about. We keep glossing over realities that would move the ball faster into the hole. I'm sure someone will say "S.G. says GIR's drop scores"  Yeah it does. You know what really drives good GIR average? Good tee ball. Hogan said as much 70 years ago. Best iron player ever (pre-Tiger), knew exactly what was what.

 

 

My father was very good friends with a long time 7 time winner PGA Tour player and Champions tour player. When I first started playing he told me, Find a driver, a wedge and a putter that work. The rest is fluff. 
 

I’ve found this to be very true in my 35 years of playing golf. 30 of which I’ve been scratch or better. Play what works for you, but to score you need those three clubs to be rock solid. I prefer blades, always have, always will. 

[Red4282]

This thing is like politics, everyone knows better, ignores facts that go against what they believe and cherry pick a few examples that “proves” they are right.
 

“I dont know why some you guys fight so hard against cbs….” 

 

There is no point having any discussion or debate with this mentality. Its such a defensive statement that clearly shows bias. Might as well say, “why cant you just agree with me”…. Nobody is fighting Against them. Pointing out shortcomings, design characteristics, and even actual DATA isnt an anti CB take. 
 

If you like your cbs or blades great. No need to force feed one or the other that thats the only way. Besides there are so many nuances in the subject it literally cant be a black and white answer. 

[JDIL]

Sorry if this has been posted but I thought it apropro:

 

Quote

In 2018 Rahm told Golf Digest what appeals to him about his P750s.

 

“It’s the forgiveness. I played musclebacks most of my career because I thought it was cool,” he said. “But when I tried these irons it was just a lot easier, a lot more comfortable when you’re in the fairway. You know that even if you don’t hit it perfect it’s still pretty much going to carry the same distance.” Even the best player in the world can use a little extra forgiveness.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jon-rahm-s-winner-s-bag-at-the-memorial

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by JDIL

[Red4282]

14 minutes ago, JDIL said:

Sorry if this has been posted but I thought it poingnant:

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jon-rahm-s-winner-s-bag-at-the-memorial

 

Rahmbo is probably not the best authority on golf equipment, if you lve ever watched any witb stuff… and again, nuances. Look at the specs on the p750. Moi is lower than many blades. But higher than some.  Cdim, about the same, and while cog is rather low, there are blades that exist with lower cog.

[nsxguy]

19 minutes ago, JDIL said:

Sorry if this has been posted but I thought it apropro:

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jon-rahm-s-winner-s-bag-at-the-memorial

 

 

Poignant ? Doesn't make me sad.

 

And who cares what Rahm thinks ? Check out Red's post.

 

What does Rahm know anyway ? He ain't even #1 in the world anymore.

[Bye]

9 minutes ago, JDIL said:

Sorry if this has been posted but I thought it poingnant:

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jon-rahm-s-winner-s-bag-at-the-memorial

 

 

A further extract.
 

“it was his work with his trusty TaylorMade P750 irons that stood out. Rahm has used the irons for several years and recently weakened the lofts on them after the COVID-19-related break because he was hitting his irons further and wanted to better control the trajectory and angle of descent.

 

“Earlier in the year Rahm made a ball change as well, switching from TaylorMade’s TP5x into the TP5 for more spin and control with his wedges.”

 

It’s a numbers game. I am sure he is good enough to play MBs. His Trackman numbers show that he is steeper than average with an iron which is more likely to be the reason for changing IMO.

[Nard_S]

20 hours ago, Red4282 said:

There is no point having any discussion or debate with this mentality. Its such a defensive statement that clearly shows bias. Might as well say, “why cant you just agree with me”…. Nobody is fighting Against them. Pointing out shortcomings, design characteristics, and even actual DATA isnt an anti CB take. 

To be fair, I was being a bit of a weiner, I don't think he was defensive,so much as maybe he thought "you're a bit a hater here". So okay, my bad. But it was more frustration than hate. Some days I should just not post at all, lol.

[JDIL]

5 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Poignant ? Doesn't make me sad.

 

And who cares what Rahm thinks ? Check out Red's post.

 

What does Rahm know anyway ? He ain't even #1 in the world anymore.

meant to write apropos but mental diarrhea while eating breakfast and typing 😄

[Bye]

.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Bye
Changed my mind on posting this

[nsxguy]

1 minute ago, JDIL said:

meant to write apropos but mental diarrhea while eating breakfast and typing 😄

 

 

Wish I had a nickel for every time I used the wrong word.

 

I'd have an awful lot of nickels. 🙃🙃🙃

[Red4282]

5 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

To be fair, I was being a bit of a weiner, I don't think he was defensive,so much as maybe he thought "you're a bit a hater here". So okay, my bad. But it was more frustration than hate. Some days I should just not post at all, lol.

Yea ive been a weiner at times too, i try to keep it about the data and discussion, but then when i see snarky comments that really add nothing, i cant help myself sometimes 🥶

[Red4282]

4 minutes ago, Bye said:

Love the honestly. I’ve become a big JR fan recently so not trying to cast any shade on him. 
 

 

I love him too, im just saying isnt really involved with fine details. I mean he has played the same shaft for 10 years. Context is important here, like i said who knows what blade he was in before, the p750s could have very well been a mild improvement. But as pointed out there are blades that on paper are at a minimum equally as forgiving.

[chisag]

11 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

To be fair, I was being a bit of a weiner, I don't think he was defensive,so much as maybe he thought "you're a bit a hater here". So okay, my bad. But it was more frustration than hate. Some days I should just not post at all, lol.

 

 

... I have Red on ignore but yea, that was the thing. And you are not alone of course. Lost in all this is I play MB's so I can't be a hater on my end. 

 

 

[NRJyzr]

7 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

I love him too, im just saying isnt really involved with fine details. I mean he has played the same shaft for 10 years. Context is important here, like i said who knows what blade he was in before, the p750s could have very well been a mild improvement. But as pointed out there are blades that on paper are at a minimum equally as forgiving.

 

Even if you go back to the early 90s.   The MS-11s were pretty forgiving.  Going forward from there, the MP33s were considered by Tour Pros to be more forgiving than the Mizzy CBs at the time.  Then there are the Nike blades, starting with the originals.

 

And so on

 

[boggyman]

2 hours ago, Bye said:

 

A further extract.
 

“it was his work with his trusty TaylorMade P750 irons that stood out. Rahm has used the irons for several years and recently weakened the lofts on them after the COVID-19-related break because he was hitting his irons further and wanted to better control the trajectory and angle of descent.

 

“Earlier in the year Rahm made a ball change as well, switching from TaylorMade’s TP5x into the TP5 for more spin and control with his wedges.”

 

It’s a numbers game. I am sure he is good enough to play MBs. His Trackman numbers show that he is steeper than average with an iron which is more likely to be the reason for changing IMO.

Gotta get the ball in the hole, REGARDLESS of what irons you’re using.  He gained strokes around the green AND his putting was very helpful in gaining strokes against the field that week also states….. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by boggyman

[Nard_S]

9 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

Then there are the Nike blades, starting with the originals.

Nike VR Pro II are as easy playing as any Player's CB.  Dead nuts center sweet spot. You should be in SGI's if you cannot play them.

[nsxguy]

52 minutes ago, boggyman said:

Gotta get the ball in the hole, REGARDLESS of what irons you’re using.  He gained strokes around the green AND his putting was very helpful in going strokes against the field that week it also states….. 

 

Not to mention that proximity to the hole is king,,,,,, REGARDLESS of what irons you're using - even (especially ?) for putting.

[Red4282]

1 hour ago, boggyman said:

Gotta get the ball in the hole, REGARDLESS of what irons you’re using.  He gained strokes around the green AND his putting was very helpful in going strokes against the field that week it also states….. 

safe to say it was HIM that made him number one, and the equipment was just hitched on for a ride lol

[orangeology]

advantage? when your bag is loaded to the cart. rusty blades in your bag all of sudden make you look like a pro. 

[boggyman]

37 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Not to mention that proximity to the hole is king,,,,,, REGARDLESS of what irons you're using - even (especially ?) for putting.

Proximity does go a long way…. 🤫✅

[Dpavs]

Reading this thread made me think of this so I had to share it in case anyone has not seen it already.

(Just to add some levity to the discussion!)

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Dpavs