I'm calling it now: the number of graphite/composite iron shafts played on the men's tour doubles next year

[Mirsir69]

Title says it all. I am hearing serious rumors of lots of tour players being interested in testing LA golf and MMT iron builds this winter in preparation for serious play to pick up in the next few months. I'm also hearing reports of major accuracy gains when making the switch. There will be some big surprises next year as to who has graphite in their bag. 

[2bGood]

16 hours ago, Mirsir69 said:

Title says it all. I am hearing serious rumors of lots of tour players being interested in testing LA golf and MMT iron builds this winter in preparation for serious play to pick up in the next few months. I'm also hearing reports of major accuracy gains when making the switch. There will be some big surprises next year as to who has graphite in their bag. 

 

Is this a trick question? Currently I believe only two of the top 100 on the PGAT play graphite. Could we get to an astounding ...... four ? Sure. Not sure that is all that impressive as I think three had graphite irons in 2021 (and then Bryson left).

 

If you think there will be a significant shift, I disagree, players take a while to change. I can see the change coming, but it will be gradual. 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by 2bGood

[Mirsir69]

1 minute ago, 2bGood said:

 

Is this a trick question? Currently I believe only two of the top 100 on the PGAT play graphite. Could we get to an astounding ...... four ? Sure. Not sure that is all the impressive as I think three had graphite iron in 2021 (and then Bryson left).

 

If you think there will be a significant shift, I disagree, players take a while to change. I can see the change coming, but it will be gradual. 

 

 

Lol, good catch. I was referencing the numbers across all of the mens tours, including senior tours. I think we will get 8-10 of the top 100 guys on the PGAT alone in graphite. Collin, Max Homa, and Billy are some of the names I have heard express interest in graphite. 

[27x10.5]

A couple years ago I guessed that we’re 5-8 seasons out for it to be just as odd to have steel iron shafts as a steel driver shaft,

seems like it’s catching on more now

[2bGood]

16 hours ago, Mirsir69 said:

Lol, good catch. I was referencing the numbers across all of the mens tours, including senior tours. I think we will get 8-10 of the top 100 guys on the PGAT alone in graphite. Collin, Max Homa, and Billy are some of the names I have heard express interest in graphite. 

I don't think we will get to 8 of the top 100 on the PGAT. The technology is there, but these players are notoriously slow to make a change like that and the shaft is the hardest thing for these guys to change. They tend not to mess around with irons shafts too much, and often change heads but play the same shafts.

Edited November 3, 2022 by 2bGood

[bladehunter]

It’s coming.  They’re too good not to try.  The consistency is unreal . And for wedge shafts , easier spin control.  Which for  most ams isn’t what you want. But for high spin generating players , it’s a cheat code. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by bladehunter

[J_Tizzle]

I'm getting some of the flighted Steelfiber shafts to try in my driving irons this fall.  If its good I could easily see myself getting some in my i230s.  Might be hard to knock out my LZs "tiger stepped" in my wedges though...

[sharkiesj]

Of course the Tour players are switching to graphite in their irons.  They’ll do anything and everything to play better and up to the level of Wrx’ers.  Top 50 on the PGA/LIV Golf? PPFFT…..That’s beneath Wrx’ers.   We’ve got way more serious stuff going on. 
 

I paid for (blank) on the BST and I didn’t get a tracking # 30 seconds later.  If I don’t get a tracking # in the next 20 seconds, how can I cancel and leave negative feedback? 
 

Please, leave the lowly PGA players alone and let’s focus on the real issues….. carry on. 

[Ferguson]

12 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

Is this a trick question? Currently I believe only two of the top 100 on the PGAT play graphite. Could we get to an astounding ...... four ? Sure. Not sure that is all the impressive as I think three had graphite iron in 2021 (and then Bryson left).

 

If you think there will be a significant shift, I disagree, players take a while to change. I can see the change coming, but it will be gradual. 

 

 

 

Let's follow the "2X" math model using a real life example. 

 

If Hope Solo consumes 2 more drinks per hour, that would total 4 drinks. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Ferguson

[Canyonaro]

3 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

Is this a trick question? Currently I believe only two of the top 100 on the PGAT play graphite. Could we get to an astounding ...... four ? Sure. Not sure that is all the impressive as I think three had graphite iron in 2021 (and then Bryson left).

 

If you think there will be a significant shift, I disagree, players take a while to change. I can see the change coming, but it will be gradual. 

 

 

 

Gradually, then all at once. Just like it happened with woods. I'm old enough to remember Tiger playing steel in his driver. 

 

Whichever OEM comes up with a graphite that feels similar to X100 but has better dispersion is going to get huge share on tour. 

[Valtiel]

I think a slow but steady move towards graphite is inevitable in the long run, but I highly doubt you'd see an off-season doubling of something like that without a MAJOR catalyst. Irons aren't "technology" club builds like woods are, they are all about consistency, comfort, and predictability, and while i'd agree that graphite has matched steel in this regard, that doesn't somehow magically give it an edge that will cause tons of people to switch. 

It also takes several generations for things like this to shift foundationally. Kids need to start growing up with graphite for its presence on tour to really solidify IMO. Look at Tiger and the impact he had on the interlocking grip as a parallel example. In the mid to late 90's the vardon grip was pretty dominant among pros, then Tiger comes along with and interlock grip and dominates for a solid decade. We didn't see everyone suddenly start interlocking though, it took the generations that grew up watching Tiger to adopt this approach and come up through the ranks to make that shift towards interlock becoming just as common on tour, something that happened over a decade. Until that shift happens at the younger level with graphite then IMO we'll continue to see the change as a trickle, not on offseason explosion. 

[Canyonaro]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

I think a slow but steady move towards graphite is inevitable in the long run, but I highly doubt you'd see an off-season doubling of something like that without a MAJOR catalyst. Irons aren't "technology" club builds like woods are, they are all about consistency, comfort, and predictability, and while i'd agree that graphite has matched steel in this regard, that doesn't somehow magically give it an edge that will cause tons of people to switch. 

It also takes several generations for things like this to shift foundationally. Kids need to start growing up with graphite for its presence on tour to really solidify IMO. Look at Tiger and the impact he had on the interlocking grip as a parallel example. In the mid to late 90's the vardon grip was pretty dominant among pros, then Tiger comes along with and interlock grip and dominates for a solid decade. We didn't see everyone suddenly start interlocking though, it took the generations that grew up watching Tiger to adopt this approach and come up through the ranks to make that shift towards interlock becoming just as common on tour, something that happened over a decade. Until that shift happens at the younger level with graphite then IMO we'll continue to see the change as a trickle, not on offseason explosion. 

 

Despite all the OEM nonsense about "Tour acceptance", PGA Tour players are reluctant to change to the point of absurdity. Tiger about sums it up:

 

“I’ve never used anything else (his iron shafts are Dynamic Gold X100). They work just fine, and I’m comfortable with them.”

 

Most of them still use (cheap garbage imo) tour velvet grips too. Strange group of humans. 

[Cwebb]

"Major accuracy gains"?  Come on.  That isn't happening

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, Canyonaro said:

 

Despite all the OEM nonsense about "Tour acceptance", PGA Tour players are reluctant to change to the point of absurdity. Tiger about sums it up:

 

“I’ve never used anything else (his iron shafts are Dynamic Gold X100). They work just fine, and I’m comfortable with them.”

 

Most of them still use (cheap garbage imo) tour velvet grips too. Strange group of humans. 

I find that the Tour Velvets commonly used on tour (58r) generally feel and wear better than the 60r versions you normally get in stores, especially if you build up at all. I don't consider them to be "cheap garbage" at all, but I definitely think the 58r is superior. 

[Mirsir69]

9 hours ago, Cwebb said:

"Major accuracy gains"?  Come on.  That isn't happening

What makes you doubt so strongly? Graphite can be made stiffer than steel in some cases it is not hard to believe accuracy gains and tighter dispersion? 

[smashdn]

Meanwhile Langer has been using the same Hogan Apex shafts in no telling how many different iron heads over the years.

[leezer99]

CHIII tried the MMT's last year, ditched them after one event and went back to steel. 3/4 shots weren't flying the right distances with the right spin. 

[leezer99]

10 hours ago, Canyonaro said:

Most of them still use (cheap garbage imo) tour velvet grips too. Strange group of humans. 

 

Why do you say the Tour Velvet is garbage? 

[2bGood]

12 hours ago, Canyonaro said:

 

Gradually, then all at once. Just like it happened with woods. I'm old enough to remember Tiger playing steel in his driver. 

 

Whichever OEM comes up with a graphite that feels similar to X100 but has better dispersion is going to get huge share on tour. 

 

I watched that too. Tiger was one of the last to go as he did not care about distance, and wanted to keep control if I recall.

 

That is one big difference in the migration of driver/woods to graphite at the pro level. The Driver shift to graphite was driven by distance gains as rightly or wrongly people believed steel was more stable, but shorter. The irons, the pro's don't care about distance gains so other selling features need to drive it. I have to steady the the tech too much, but I have to assume graphite can be made to behave in more ways and more predictable ways than steel. But is that enough to knock steel shafts out of the bag at the pro level where shafts are precisely matched already and the pro is very used to them (may have played the same shaft their entire career)?

[Avidswampthing66]

16 hours ago, sharkiesj said:

They’ll do anything and everything to play better and up to the level of Wrx’ers.

Never!  We are a legion of + hdcp legends and bombers! 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Avidswampthing66

[Fairways_and_Greens]

I doubt it. I have MMTs, installed them twice when I have joint pain, and have gone back to steel as many times. They felt amazing, but my launch dropped 2 degrees and they were more prone to long left pulls compared to Modus 120TX. 
 

Rickie and Kisner were in MMTs and are both back in steel. The LA L series look super interesting but are back weighted. 
 

DJ had a hand in developing the L series and isn’t playing them. He’s not playing the LA driver shaft anymore anyways. 

[RobS]

In 2013 there were 6 wins on tour with graphite iron shafts (Kuchar, Snedeker, Boo and Tim Clark).  All 4 of those players were top 100 in the OWGR and I believe that Kuchar and Sneds were in the top 10.  Some manufacturers predicted that graphite iron shafts would be the norm in 10 years, which brings us to today.  I think there are currently 3 top 100 players with graphite (Bryson, Ancer and Kuchar).  Other players have tested graphite iron shafts, Fowler, CHIII, Love and Day for example, but it rarely seems to stick.  It will be interesting to see if it ever really takes off on the tour level.  It's a bit of a challenge because one of the prime benefits is also a prime detriment to a lot of players.  Graphite shafts are great at dampening vibrations which is great for reducing wear and tear when you are constantly hitting balls.  The flip side is that the vibration dampening takes away the feedback that most player are accustomed to having honed their games on steel shafts and firmer grips without much vibration dampening.  Feel is a phenomenon.  Once you feel impact on a given shot, the results are already outside of your control.  That feeling, however, can carry over to how you swing the club on the next shot.

Edited November 3, 2022 by RobS

[KNOWMOREDOUBLES]

2 hours ago, Avidswampthing66 said:

Never!  We are a legion of + hdcp legends and bombers! 

[forrester_fire]

I mean, this probably belongs in the "Tour and Pre-Release" equipment forum, but...

 

Doubling from 1 to 2 isn't what I would consider a trend.  I expect steel iron shafts to be the norm for the foreseeable future.

[chisag]

21 hours ago, bladehunter said:

It’s coming.  They’re too good not to try.  The consistency is unreal . And for wedge shafts , easier spin control.  Which for  most ams isn’t what you want. But for high spin generating players , it’s a cheat code. 

 

 

... Many here hate it when anyone mentions the LPGA, especially MB lovers. But the women are just insanely accurate and most play graphite in their irons. Many in the top ten play Steelfiber shafts including JY Ko that hit 66 greens in a row. And for those that think it is for added distance because the ladies aren't big hitters, Nelly Korda and Ariya Jutanugarn play Steelfibers in their irons and are longer than most on WRX. 

[jomatty]

I’m surprised that at least the guys with back problems are not using them more.  As much as someone like Jason Day struggles with his back you would think it would be worth it for him.  The fact that he tried and went back to steel shows what he thinks for his game.  I’m a huge graphite fan and really happy with my MMT’s.  That said, if I woke up with healthy joints and no back problems I would probably go back to steel.  

[chisag]

3 minutes ago, jomatty said:

 That said, if I woke up with healthy joints and no back problems I would probably go back to steel.  

 

 

... Just curious but since they can manipulate the weight, balance, kick point and torque with graphite to virtually any spec and steel is very limited in what it can do, why would you go back? 

[jomatty]

32 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Just curious but since they can manipulate the weight, balance, kick point and torque with graphite to virtually any spec and steel is very limited in what it can do, why would you go back? 

I like the feel and flight window.  Not by a lot, but I prefer it.  I haven’t tried the LA Golf shafts though, and I’m sure there will continue to be new offerings so my opinion could change.  Truthfully it’s kind of a moot point because graphite has been a Godsend for me and I certainly won’t be going back.  
 

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Just curious but since they can manipulate the weight, balance, kick point and torque with graphite to virtually any spec and steel is very limited in what it can do, why would you go back? 

I can't speak for him obviously, but the the bigger point here is that the utilitarian nature of irons and their shafts means that all those parameters tend to only need to exist in a fairly narrow window and the ability to mess with them quickly becomes more academic than practical. Meaning that yes, you can do WAY more with graphite in terms of those specs but no one needs or wants what constitutes most of that "more". Better players tend to prefer a fairly tight weight range, have no need for anything extreme when it comes to balance point, and prefer lower torque. So you *could* make a composite shaft that is way lighter with a super high balance point and slightly higher torque for feel, all of which you couldn't accomplish with steel, but very few would actually want or need that. IMO the main practical benefit is what composite shafts can do in that 95-110g range, offering shafts that are lighter than your traditional 120-130g steel but still stout enough while still feeling pretty good. 

[chisag]

3 hours ago, jomatty said:

l like the feel and flight window.  Not by a lot, but I prefer it.  I haven’t tried the LA Golf shafts though, and I’m sure there will continue to be new offerings so my opinion could change.  Truthfully it’s kind of a moot point because graphite has been a Godsend for me and I certainly won’t be going back.

 

 

... It would be interesting. I had 2 back surgeries but elbow tendonitis is what caused me to change in the late 90's. I have played a myriad of graphite iron shafts and could not imagine going back to steel. I received some 22' Forged Tecs to review that came with Modus 105's so I played them a couple of weeks. Really disliked the feel and my elbow started hurting when I have had no problems in over 20 years so I re-shafted with Steelfibers and the pain disappeared and the feel I love came right back. ymmv ...