Do name brand teachers and not so name brand teachers ever ruin highly talented players?

[iacas]

6 hours ago, indianagolf2 said:

I disagree with the butch harmon is great mystique

 

Yup.

[Pastit]

On 6/22/2023 at 11:00 PM, Zitlow said:

I don't think Patrick Prince needed a lot of coaching, he needed validation that he was on the right track.

 

A few couple years ago I was watching a golf tournament on SkySports and they had Butch in the booth watching DJ warm up.

 

Butch said Dustin came to him the day before and said he couldn't hit a fairway and would Butch look at his swing. Butch watched him hit a few balls and told Dustin he was over extending his right knee.

 

Butch said Dustin nailed 10 drives in a row and thanked him for the help. Butch and the guy in the booth were laughing about it. 

 

Rickie Fowler went back to Butch and he's playing well again, maybe y'all can see a difference but to me his swing looks the same as it did before he came back to Butch. 

 

 

I looked at RF carefully, he’s staying on plane now. 

[aggiegolfer21]

Yes, but it's less likely to happen now than it was back then.  Fewer teachers have a swing method now, more instructors tailor their instruction to the player they are working with.

[nitram]

To answer the OP's question: YES

[mantan]

On 6/22/2023 at 3:10 PM, KGrinols said:

I spend an embarrassing amount of time on YouTube consuming golf coaching content.  My personal opinion is that every player has to find a coach that resonates with them. Mentally and physically.  There are so many different mentalities, approaches, styles, ways of explaining, etc etc etc.

 

But more than anything... I think people who are getting coached, are often too... what's the right word.  Agreeable?  Timid? Shy, scared, or embarrassed maybe?  They won't speak up when they don't understand something.  They'll just agree with everything the coach says (because they're obviously professionals) and will often just mindlessly fish to give the answer or action they THINK the coach wants, rather than actively trying to process what they're hearing, being shown or told etc, and actually learning what they're being told.  I think many teachers exponentially make it worse, because they're too smart and are just shoving the right answers\information down people's throats faster than the student can actually grasp the concept for themselves.

 

I 

 

I wish I could like this post 1000 times.  Sometimes I'm at the end of the range near the lesson tee.  I've heard what you've described over and over. I think adult learners, especially adult male learners have a hard time being vulnerable and in a mode to really receive/learn instruction.  You often hear guys nodding and quickly and saying how they got it. And many times adding their own explanations of what they think/know.  Very rarely have I ever heard somebody say 'I don't understand what you mean?  Or can you explain that another way?'

 

Not to pick on this YT guy but watching him take a lesson with Parker Mclachlin was painful.  Mostly because he just constantly had to interject being overly 'agreeable' or with his own take on something he was taking a lesson to try to correct. You just want to tell him talk less and let us hear more of Parker.
 

 

 

I've been guilty of it myself for sure. Especially when an instructor explains something in a way that doesn't click with me.

 

Golf instruction is ridiculously hard.  There are so many components and themes. There are parts we naturally get and understand...and pieces that are total mystery.  Two different golfers can swing the club the same way, but what their feel is can be completely different.

 

Good instructors are like a golf version of CP3O. They often have to quickly figure out what words/language connects with that golfer.  Often when they are giving limited feedback.  And always when they expect quick fixes, miracle cures and change to immediate and lasting.

It's really hard to find an instructor that's a good fit. Especially now with the golf boom. You can be 10 minutes into an hour lesson with a new instructor and realize it's just not going to click.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by mantan

[mantan]

Though I would say Monte is VERY good at this. Saw him a couple of times when he was in town and it felt like tried to connect and fix what we could realistically fix in the short time we worked together. But the good thing is left breadcrumbs I still use today and supplement the videos I bought.  (precursor to Broom Force)

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by mantan

[RoyalTroon]

No chance whatsoever Parker will mess up anyone's ideas and executions within the short game.  Highly recommended. 

[virtuoso]

So what I'm getting from this thread is: don't try to help someone because if you screw them up, you're an @**-hat, but if you do help them, you're a genius...so much so, that everyone on the forum will be doing that same thing on the range this afternoon, even though it doesn't apply to them.

 

So, just be really good at it....and remember, don't suck at it, because golfwrx is watching.

 

Super.

Edited June 26, 2023 by virtuoso

[Ajgaguy83]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:14 AM, iacas said:

 

Yup.

 

Why?

[iacas]

55 minutes ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

Why?

 

I've heard about enough lessons he's given to normal people (including some mini tour players, +3s, as well as 12s and 6s and 18s) to have that opinion.

[golfortennis]

On 6/22/2023 at 5:52 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Jason Gore was having trouble with his pitches.  I didn’t teach him the entirety of UTB.  I asked what he didn’t like.  EVERY shot was in the toe and he hated that:  I didn’t tell him anything but why that was happening.  “I’m not supposed to do that.”

 

 

Tell the truth, Monte.  You asked what he wanted, and the direction you pointed him in was the directions to the USGA!!  

 

On 6/23/2023 at 11:22 AM, phizzy30 said:

He ruined Patrick Reed.  Reed is a natural drawer of the ball and Leadbetter taught him how to hit a fade.  He's won one tournament since then while still a member on the PGA Tour and lost considerable distance after his swing change.  As much as I don't like him, he used to be super talented but is now nowhere near what he used to be. 

 

It's as though he cheated him out of future success.

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

The biggest failures likely come from teachers who try to teach their swing to every player, not the best swing for the player.  You have a lot of methods where the teacher has built their "brand" upon, and thus aren't going to move away from it because, well, that's $$ in their pocket.  Because it takes a long time for the paying public to catch on that something doesn't work, much longer than the pro's play falling off would tell you to look elsewhere.

 

While I agree the student needs to take some responsibility, I would caution about taking that too far.  Unless you're talking about a high level player, or an obvious physical impairment, a lot of times students don't know what they don't know.  And in most cases, someone is there for a lesson because they are, to some degree, lost.  So a lot of things sound good in that moment.  It's a tough thing because too many people have been conditioned to believe in a "comfort zone", and thus if improvement isn't consistent right away, then they will ditch whatever they were just taught to get back to what they know.       

[Pepperturbo]

On 6/22/2023 at 2:52 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Here’s how I approach it.

 

It’s not “Do this!”

 

Its, “What do YOU want to do?”

 

Earlier this year Doug Barron came to play in the Hoag.  He asked me to come out and see what he was doing.  I spent a few days out there with him.  
 

He asked what I thought.  I said what I thought doesn’t matter.  I asked what he wanted, he told me, I pointed him in that direction.  He said that’s what I thought.   If not for a miracle up and down on a 50 yard bunker shot by Ernie Els on the 54 hole, he’s in a playoff and finished 1 back. 
 

Sad part is he was having elbow and wrist issues and had season ending surgery a few weeks later.

 

When I worked with Lickliter I asked him what he wanted.  I pointed him there.  Next week best finish on the tour in 6 years. 
 

Jason Gore was having trouble with his pitches.  I didn’t teach him the entirety of UTB.  I asked what he didn’t like.  EVERY shot was in the toe and he hated that:  I didn’t tell him anything but why that was happening.  “I’m not supposed to do that.”

 

”NOOOOO!!!!!!!!”

 

Very next shot was middle face.  He had 6 top 5 finishes on the PGA and Kornferey on the next 10 weeks.

 

Guess what?  That’s how you teach hacks and decent golfers too.  You educate them on what’s generally easier to do and then show them where their perceptions are off.

This ^

 

I am basically self-taught.  But during my learning phase was fortunate to meet Jami Mulligan though friends.  Anyway, I took a basic lesson series to insure my mechanics were right.  Jami asked me a few key questions that set the tone for what I learned.   

 

To the OP's question; yes, students hooked up with wrong instructors, can have their game go south on them.

[me05501]

If you as the student seek out an instructor who has a national rep and a specific approach to the swing, there's an implied understanding that you're there to get exactly what they offer. You're not there to debate their method with them. Otherwise there are a hundred other people you could have gone to see. 

 

If you're that student you should expect that instructor to try to mold you in their image. You'd probably be disappointed if they didn't try! That's what you're there for. You chose that. 

 

The majority of us are probably better off with a local instructor with a more flexible approach. 

[Ironman_32]

I don't know if its the instruction alone, sometimes its the instruction paired with the golfer trying to make a move that's unnatural to them. 

 

Couple examples:

1. I believe it was Michael Campbell who got out of whack after the '05 US Open.  Good enough to win it, but he felt he needed to be that good every week and went chasing.

2. Funny Parker Mclachlin is mentioned above, he was on a podcast (NLU) I believe and spoke about how after he won a tour event Sean Foley got in his ear and tried to coach him, basically messed up his swing and he said Foley was basically like "opps" then started coaching Tiger. 

3. Apparently, Phillip Francis (won the world junior something like 4 years in a row) wanted to get longer in coach and lost his game chasing it (apparently according to Charlie Bejian on a podcast, Francis invested in bitcoin when it was double digits, so it worked out). 

 

I think the hardest thing now on tour though is its basically one style of play, so everyone is chasing a certain swing that hits it long and far. 

[naval2006]

On 6/22/2023 at 4:59 PM, Zitlow said:

David Leadbetter is like the Boston Strangler, don't go near him. 

 

 

I guess Nick Faldo and Nick Price were his partners in crime. 

[Ajgaguy83]

15 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I've heard about enough lessons he's given to normal people (including some mini tour players, +3s, as well as 12s and 6s and 18s) to have that opinion.

Fair enough. I was asking out of curiosity, not doubt. Anything more specific you care to share to help support this? Again, I’m genuinely interested. 

[Jimi Thing]

To the OP, for the serious golfer examples, the answer is a hard NO. 
 

at that level the simple answer is that the student simply lacks talent no more no less. not so much in the golf swing department rather in the department of owning your golf game and improvement. 
 

seriously, if you have that level of golf swing talent to have it ruined beyond repair while you are witnessing it, this is not about teachers any more. Rather about self knowledge, balancing being open minded to change vs knowing what is beyond change. 
 

it is about owning your improvement, the decisions you make mainly define your outcomes. No path to improvement is pushed on you, it’s the result of your decisions. Your talent to assimilate and integrate or throw away makes a golfer out of a golf swinger 

[naval2006]

50 minutes ago, Jimi Thing said:

To the OP, for the serious golfer examples, the answer is a hard NO. 
 

at that level the simple answer is that the student simply lacks talent no more no less. not so much in the golf swing department rather in the department of owning your golf game and improvement. 
 

seriously, if you have that level of golf swing talent to have it ruined beyond repair while you are witnessing it, this is not about teachers any more. Rather about self knowledge, balancing being open minded to change vs knowing what is beyond change. 
 

it is about owning your improvement, the decisions you make mainly define your outcomes. No path to improvement is pushed on you, it’s the result of your decisions. Your talent to assimilate and integrate or throw away makes a golfer out of a golf swinger 

At top level owning your game should be taken for granted.  Most can do it, some can't and get trapped.  There are a lot stories of players showing up for the first time at the practice tee of a PGA Tour event and how they felt inferior hitting next to the stars.  Overcoming that situation and keeping on trusting your game is part of becoming a top golfer.  

 

From the teaching side, blaming an instructor for "destroying" your swing is as old as the game itself.  At club level, we all know guys like these, they usually are not good players and you know they will never be.  At top level, blaming the coach is like hiding away from the real challenge.  

[RichieHunt]

Happens all of the time.  See it on the PGA Tour quite frequently.  Although it's not always 100% on the instructor.  You get guys on Tour that get the idea in their head that their swing needs to be one way and insist the coach teach them accordingly even if it's to their detriment.  Or you get a coach that is teaching them smartly, but the player seeks advice from other coaches and it becomes a hodge-podge of swing philosophies that don't jive well.  Often time the reason why certain coaches work well with certain players comes down to that coach knows that player's swing and knows that player's mentality.

 

That's why even the coaches that have consistently been successful with Tour pros will struggle with a random pro.  It's difficult to fully understand the player's swing and mentality in a short period of time.  More often than not it takes years and a lot of trial and error.

 

The good news is that the measurement technology has improved dramatically in the past 10 years and there's been better information gleaned from the measurements.  So there should be less good golfers getting 'coached off the tour' as we go forward.

 

 

 

 

RH

[rgk5]

David Ledbetter made it an art form.

[PracticeSwinger]

4 hours ago, naval2006 said:

At top level owning your game should be taken for granted.  Most can do it, some can't and get trapped.  There are a lot stories of players showing up for the first time at the practice tee of a PGA Tour event and how they felt inferior hitting next to the stars.  Overcoming that situation and keeping on trusting your game is part of becoming a top golfer. 

Good point and I'm guessing that has more to do with the 'mental' aspect that is talked here from time to time, on the type of individual that you are more than on your coach relationship. When you finally got it dialed up and get to play on Tour, get to the range and see Adam Scott and JT stripping it 35 yards past you, you have to have it in you to stick to your guns and know it's not an imposter syndrome. Probably where a lot of those 'derailments' begin

Edited June 27, 2023 by Varry_Hardon
typo

[Jimi Thing]

This will sound harsh, but it is just excuses, excuses. If this coach would not have brought the s*** upon them it would have been a different external element which the player allowed to completely derail them. 
 

surely some short term hiccups can occur. The talented translate these into learning. Those without have found a proper excuse. 
 

[Zitlow]

36 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

Happens all of the time.  See it on the PGA Tour quite frequently.  Although it's not always 100% on the instructor.  You get guys on Tour that get the idea in their head that their swing needs to be one way and insist the coach teach them accordingly even if it's to their detriment.  Or you get a coach that is teaching them smartly, but the player seeks advice from other coaches and it becomes a hodge-podge of swing philosophies that don't jive well.  Often time the reason why certain coaches work well with certain players comes down to that coach knows that player's swing and knows that player's mentality.

 

That's why even the coaches that have consistently been successful with Tour pros will struggle with a random pro.  It's difficult to fully understand the player's swing and mentality in a short period of time.  More often than not it takes years and a lot of trial and error.

 

The good news is that the measurement technology has improved dramatically in the past 10 years and there's been better information gleaned from the measurements.  So there should be less good golfers getting 'coached off the tour' as we go forward.

 

 

 

 

RH

I was in Golfsmith standing in a short check out line to buy some golf balls. There was a magazine rack with golf magazines and I picked one up and started reading through it. It was an obscure publication that I'd never heard of before.

 

I'm thumbing through the magazine and see an article with a picture of Mike Austin. He's describing an action of the COM which makes a quick shift onto the left foot at impact releasing the entire right side starting from the right heel rotationally into the ball. 

 

The article also had his phone number in Woodland Hills. A couple days later I call the number. He picks up the phone and says "Mike Austin speaking" with a strong authoritative voice. 

 

I ended up talking lessons from him for several years at Studio City, a range near Woodland Hills and at his home. He was like a Rembrandt with the patience of Job trying to teach a 5 year old how to paint a masterpiece. He told me one time that he charged for the golf lessons but the cursing lessons were free.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gators78]

Yes. I played junior golf in the late 90s/early 2000s, you could walk down the range and see a good chunk of players working on the latest swing du jour that might light up a swing video, except that swing dynamics went out the window.

 

Leadbetter early wrist set swing, to

Sergio float lag, to

Tiger backswing width, to

One plane/two plane, to

Tiger’s Haney ulnar wrist drag follow through, to

Stack and tilt, to

Swinging left of left, sprinkle in

AJ Bonar, Jimmy Ballard, Mike Austin, X factor, knuckle fades, “the impact zone”, TGM, the “Secret”, anything Hogan, etc, it wasn’t hard to tell what method someone was following. 

 

I know players that had some serious resumes that started chasing a look on video and never found it again. Thankfully, with more access in the 2010s to biomechanics, force plates, course management data, and launch monitors, I personally think instruction has gotten exponentially more efficient and better.

 

Quick edit: I should add those “methods” could certainly work when coached directly and had the eye of a quality instructor, but the trend of marketing a swing method really took off, and players trying to imitate on their own or other less experienced teachers trying to follow the breadcrumb trail really fouled people up.

Edited June 27, 2023 by gators78

[DevilDog]

The big names are in golf instruction business to make money. A lot of money.  Therefore, they come up with some catch-phrase or term to describe what is "correct".  A coach that teaches a system or method is one everyone should run from because not everyone can do it.  Physical limitations, body type, etc, all are huge factors.  As for upcoming coaches in a local area, they are teaching what they believe to be correct based on clinics and classes they've attended.  Again, it can devolve into a swing method and everyone is supposed to swing in precisely that way.  Doesn't work.