Has it finally gotten to the point where new drivers really aren't better than the prior model?

[Avidswampthing66]

Idk man, my PTD is faster across the face than the Rogue St and prior Epic with no loss of forgiveness.  That is better.  Small gains ares still gains.  The OG green Epic was good, but Paradym is a wayyy better driver on the mishits with a small distance advantage. But, hey maybe I've got kool-aid stains on my shirt...

Edited October 10, 2023 by Avidswampthing66

[ChipNRun]

It's always a case of two steps forward, one step back. Some drivers really outdo the prior cycle's model, others are meh... and some are actually inferior.

 

Since I turned 60 (2010) I have been getting about 4 to 5 seasons out of my drivers. I would compare the new stuff to my current driver, but none of the new stuff really performed much better than the current driver.

 

And, most of the changes have been related to a lighter shaft to keep the clubhead speed up. Right now, I have a 54-gram R flex that may actually hold for awhile. The lighter shafts are just too light, and I overswing like crazy.

[HeadCovered]

You can only move weights around so much until every position and CG has been done lol

and then thin it here and carbon here and specific rib here and blah blah blah…. 
now it’s up to the USGA to decide how far they want to push CT/COR limits and change it up or down…… 

[RolandofGilead]

3 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

believe that point was attained 20 years ago.

I switched to 20 year old woods for 2023 and my handicap stayed the same. Play what looks and feels right to you: if you can deliver the club somewhat consistently and have a shaft that fits you, the new stuff isn’t necessarily all that much better in terms of scoring. Easier on the wallet too (don’t get me started on the high $ barrier to entry of this sport).

 

[Canyonaro]

6 hours ago, TwistedSister said:

I have been thru at least TEN driver heads/shafts or combos that aren't any better than my SLDR 430!

My SLDR was the longest driver I've ever played, but it's sitting in my garage for a reason. Mishits are WILD with that thing. 

[Streuner]

For players that are constantly hit the middle of the clubface, the drivers are the same since years… what became better is dispersion all over the face with spin control. There are clubheads out there that are working great for heel strikes or toe strikes. There are clubs out there that are not having that much loss on bottom hits… and maybe there will be once a club head who ticks all those boxes. 
for me the shaft development is also a interesting part. The quality of „made for“ shafts is better that 10 years ago. 

[DrizZzY22]

I think equipment is getting better, but marginally year over year. It also depends on the user. My g430 is a way better fit for me than my old g425. But that will all depend on the individual. 

[TwistedSister]

7 hours ago, Canyonaro said:

My SLDR was the longest driver I've ever played, but it's sitting in my garage for a reason. Mishits are WILD with that thing. 

Hardly ever mis hit it.

[NRJyzr]

15 hours ago, Mikey_HACKilroy said:

 

+1000^

That is an excellent point. I remember when Graphite came out and still have one of the plain old black graphite shafts of which I have no idea of design. The one in that old driver seemed nice but it broke easily......

 

Totally agree.  

 

It's funny when you look back even to the early 2000s.  There were good products back then, but it wasn't as prevalent as it is now; some of the basic shafts available were closer to the earlier graphite than we might have liked.

 

One of the unfortunate side effects is shaft pricing.  It's gotten a bit out there (IMHO).  Gotta love paying for tour usage and better stock shaft supply.  😐

 

I had one of the early "exotic" shafts, having lucked into it.  I think purchasing new, it would've been slightly over $100 ($180-ish) in 2000 dollars.  I now laugh when I think about how I felt about a $100 back then.

 

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

1 hour ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Totally agree.  

 

It's funny when you look back even to the early 2000s.  There were good products back then, but it wasn't as prevalent as it is now; some of the basic shafts available were closer to the earlier graphite than we might have liked.

 

One of the unfortunate side effects is shaft pricing.  It's gotten a bit out there (IMHO).  Gotta love paying for tour usage and better stock shaft supply.  😐

 

I had one of the early "exotic" shafts, having lucked into it.  I think purchasing new, it would've been slightly over $100 ($180-ish) in 2000 dollars.  I now laugh when I think about how I felt about a $100 back then.

 

 

I still want to try a Ventus TR Blue but I also need to wait until I can stomach another $200+ golf purchase LOL.

I did find a $60 deal on the current shaft I've decided to game. So there definitely are cost effective options out there, but the choices are definitely limited to older renditions from maybe the last product run. 😄

 

[CactusGolf]

Normally, I'd agree with the statements that new drivers aren't better than the prior model, but this year I've seen a drastic improvement going into the Paradym.

 

I was playing the Epic Speed for a solid two years and had a brief stint with the Rogue ST Max before going into the Paradym.  Paradym release this year has been one of the better clubs I can remember.  Distance and accuracy are both up, which is allowing me to come into greens with shorter clubs and my scoring averages are down, especially when I'm not swinging particularly  well.

[NRJyzr]

1 hour ago, Mikey_HACKilroy said:

 

I still want to try a Ventus TR Blue but I also need to wait until I can stomach another $200+ golf purchase LOL.

I did find a $60 deal on the current shaft I've decided to game. So there definitely are cost effective options out there, but the choices are definitely limited to older renditions from maybe the last product run. 😄

 

 

Ten to fifteen years ago, the new shafts (and newer clubheads) would have been a godsend for me.  High spin, moderately high speed, player...

 

Now at age 60, not so much.  I'm just wallowing in the rather pedestrian Aldila NV (green).  <shrug>

 

 

[scott406]

On 10/9/2023 at 1:17 PM, Putter Addict said:

I still play a Cobra Fly Z and nothing has kicked it out of my bag in almost 10 years. I have tried other brands, newer Cobra drivers, etc... but that particular driver just works best for me for some reason. 

I went for a driver fitting and the fitter told me to keep the Fly Z 

Was hitting just as good as anything during the fitting 

 

 

I just gave up my Fly Z last year

Went to a Cobra RadSpeed at 44.5 inches (The fitting suggested I go to a shorter driver)

I see no difference in flight, distance, or dispersion

I still have the Fly Z as a break glass in case of an emergency driver.

 

I always try and hit the new drivers that I can demo

You never know what is going to work for you unless you try

 

 

 

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

14 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Ten to fifteen years ago, the new shafts (and newer clubheads) would have been a godsend for me.  High spin, moderately high speed, player...

 

Now at age 60, not so much.  I'm just wallowing in the rather pedestrian Aldila NV (green).  <shrug>

 

 

 

I figure I'll have ten more years of this maybe before my hands cry uncle; they already seem to have joint soreness that goes beyond the normal (maybe I should be telling my doctor? 🥴). Though I feel like I still have time before I have to yield to the Golf Gods.

[manima1]

All I know is that I can hit my Stealth+ all over the face and it flat out gets out there with very little drop off in ballspeed.  I can objectively say that is an improvement over even one of the GOAT drivers like an OG M2.  

 

Rory just set the single season driving record with a Stealth2+ with an averag 326.3 yards.  I don't think Rory has gotten significantly more fit, stronger, (or younger) over the past few seasons.

 

So to say there is no improvement year to year, I think is inaccurate.  Are there years where the improvement is more significant as compared to another?  Sure.  But driver technology is definitely still improving and I think there is a lot left in the tank 

[Valtiel]

11 hours ago, DrizZzY22 said:

I think equipment is getting better, but marginally year over year.

 

18 minutes ago, manima1 said:

All I know is that I can hit my Stealth+ all over the face and it flat out gets out there with very little drop off in ballspeed.  I can objectively say that is an improvement over even one of the GOAT drivers like an OG M2.  

Subjective stuff aside, ballspeed retention on off-center hits is really the thing we've seen consistently trend up over the years. Folks that hold off upgrading every year rightfully observe that the changes are often minimal, but then 4/5/6 cycles go by and you get more and more people hopping off the fence because that 1mph mishit speed retention is now 3+ for example. There is a noticeable difference as you observed @manima1 with the 2016 M2 vs. the current Stealth2+ in this regard. 

[joostin]

On 10/9/2023 at 4:53 PM, Valtiel said:

One of the funnier elephants in the room is overall driver head design and the fact that we've all collectively decided as golfers that we want drivers shaped a certain way, and that shape is objectively NOT the best for performance. A nice rounded sort of pear-ish shape presents all sorts of design issues with regards to where weight is distribution, and the advancements in lighter materials (carbon fibers mainly) has been helping push that forward. To *truly* see something more than incremental changes would require a drastic shift in driver shaping that most people would probably hate, hah.

Yes, we're a bit stuck with accepted driver head shapes.  I think things can change though if there's enough buy-in and results over time.  Golfers adopted Big Bertha (then Great and Biggest) then 460cc, and also all kinds of funky looking putters.  The short-lived square drivers didn't catch on, but look at Nike SQ SUMO² 5900... They achieved the 5900 g-cm² max MOI back in 2008.  Horrible sound aside, Nike got to max MOI 15 years ago, and the OEMs with "normal" head shapes are only now just touching those MOIs if not even quite there yet!  Imagine what they can do now with square if looks and sound somehow became acceptable.  They could probably get to max MOI with 350cc heads.

 

 

I posted this in a unicorn driver thread, but yeah, weird shapes can more easily move weight to get to max MOI while manipulating CG (CG at or below neutral axis for favorable gear effect).  The design has to move mass away from the CG.  That could mean revisiting square shapes and something like Spider putters with rear corner weight positions.  There could be empty space where the CG is, almost like the Cobra putter below.  Then of couse they'd have to figure out looks, sound, aerodynamics...

 

 

The modern high MOI driver heads have to extend the rear ends far and low to get mass away from the CG while keeping CG low.  They could move more weight to the perimeter, but for aerodynamics can't keep the side skirts low, so they're stuck with the current "normal" shape with low rear weights.

 

Maybe if Titleist decided to push a Scotty Cameron branded Futura driver, people would take weirder shapes seriously 😋.

[joostin]

To add to the forgiveness that everyone is correctly saying... Physically, and due to having max MOI and max COR/CT constraints, we can't get to a perfect driver head capable of 1.5 smash or .83 COR across the entire face.  But engineering can continue getting better and better on expanding the area that maintains high ball speed retention.  It will never get to perfection, but that's engineering's job to find ways to get closer to it.  G430 Max and SLDR are both 460cc and both limited to the same max COR when hit on the screws, but we all know what's more forgiving on mishits.

 

Until we get to perfection (never), we will continue having incremental design improvements, realized or not.

Edited October 11, 2023 by joostin

[Valtiel]

3 hours ago, joostin said:

The short-lived square drivers didn't catch on, but look at Nike SQ SUMO² 5900... They achieved the 5900 g-cm² max MOI back in 2008.  Horrible sound aside, Nike got to max MOI 15 years ago, and the OEMs with "normal" head shapes are only now just touching those MOIs if not even quite there yet! 

Yeah you better believe as I was typing "we want drivers shaped a certain way" my brain was just going "SQUARE DRIVER SQUARE DRIVER SQUARE DRIVER" 😆

As ugly and terrible sounding as they were, they stuck around AWHILE which IMO was a testament to how much super high MOI can benefit the average player. It's no mystery that the G400 MAX has enjoyed a similar extended life. 

[joostin]

5 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Yeah you better believe as I was typing "we want drivers shaped a certain way" my brain was just going "SQUARE DRIVER SQUARE DRIVER SQUARE DRIVER" 😆

As ugly and terrible sounding as they were, they stuck around AWHILE which IMO was a testament to how much super high MOI can benefit the average player. It's no mystery that the G400 MAX has enjoyed a similar extended life. 

Lucas Glover's US Open win with square helped.  We just need Freddy to add to his already square old 3 wood with a better/modern square driver design to give cred and some acceptance!  If a lot of people can play those putters above, who knows...

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by joostin

[tipperi]

It seems like all that's left at this point is chasing the combination of CG, Shaft, Length, Lie, Grip ect to maximize performance for the individual.

This year was the first eye opener for me that new drivers aren't necessarily better, so much as they are just different.  TSR2 has been the darling of WRX all year, I'm a traditional "2" player and for whatever reason TSR just doesn't work for me. I need the launch and spin of TSi, and when i get to a loft that makes the R work I give back whatever ball speed I would've gained.

I think Callaway really had it right the last several years with basically having 2 different lines on alternate release cycles in Rogue vs EPIC.  Most players fell into one of the two and if you were a Rogue player for example, 2 years between releases gave enough time to find incremental gains.  

[mantan]

On 10/9/2023 at 1:47 PM, jholz said:

What is this, 2009?

 

So true.  I've been on WRX since 2005.   If you go back to any year and just blank out the model name of the club, the threads are EXACTLY the same...year, after year, after year.....

 

Has equipment peaked?

Is X club the best ever?

Blades vs cavity backs?

Everyone needs a hybrid/driving iron/7-wood (Lady Precept)

Has ball technology peaked?

[Retrop1]

I think it is quite relative to the golfer and the fit of the equipment. If your equipment is well fit and not too old, then there probably isn't anything out there that will give you significantly better results. If your equipment is neither properly fit or more than 5-6 years old, then you could see massive improvements. That being said, the tech is nearing a max out stage and this year's model is never going to be a huge improvement over last year for any manufacturer. 

 

What I do see being a potential improvement is in the adjustable weighting to really dial a club in for the golfer for both CG and swingweight. PXG has awesome tech for that right now, but their driver and woods are still relatively slow ballspeeds compared to other manufacturers. In the irons, you can literally customize your swingweight without moving CG and that is awesome to think of the different length, lie, sw combos they can reliably produce. Edel is the only other manufacturer that can do this with irons and wedges. If a bigger market share company could come out with something similar without any patent infringement, it could be a game changer. 

 

Also, I think there is still room to improve shaft design as we find lighter and stronger materials, and also a refinement of the "autoflex" idea would be interesting to see if that got to a more affordable price point.

[Jag80]

Advancement is primarily in forgiveness on off center strikes. If you are hitting the ball in the center of the face, you won't probably see much distance gains, if any.  Distance is the big selling point for drivers, so companies are going to say the newer models are longer. 

[NRJyzr]

@joostin @Valtiel  I wondered how long it would be before square drivers were mentioned.  🙂

 

 

[nitram]

On 10/10/2023 at 12:12 AM, Canyonaro said:

My SLDR was the longest driver I've ever played, but it's sitting in my garage for a reason. Mishits are WILD with that thing. 

 

 

^^^^^TRUTH^^^^^

[ChaosTheory]

In evaluating driver progress, there is not much merit to the argument that begins “when you hit it in the sweet spot every time.”  Once you discard that proviso, then drivers are definitely still getting better.  

 

Even with sweet spot impact, there is still fine tuning of launch and spin.  

 

[double_d]

On 10/9/2023 at 1:39 PM, The Ultimate Hack said:

 

Has it now gotten to the point where this manufactures have hit a wall and it's impossible to make their driver/fairway wood better?

 

Yes. It's been like that for some time.

[MountainKing]

As long as the driver is fit/optimized for you, it's very hard to see any sort of gains from one to another.  The biggest thing I've seen from the Stealth driver is off center hits having higher ball speeds than previous models, but otherwise I think it's pretty tough right now with the rules in place.

[Shilgy]

On 10/9/2023 at 9:51 PM, RolandofGilead said:

I switched to 20 year old woods for 2023 and my handicap stayed the same. Play what looks and feels right to you: if you can deliver the club somewhat consistently and have a shaft that fits you, the new stuff isn’t necessarily all that much better in terms of scoring. Easier on the wallet too (don’t get me started on the high $ barrier to entry of this sport).

 

Since you mentioned pricing…as have many in other threads…

 

The 2001 PING TiSi Tec driver was 323cc and retailed for $550.  That’s a very “modest” $935 today.🤯 Your 975J was $500.