14 Club Rule

[st1800e]

48 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

If you go out and play a round with a driver and a putter you are in compliance with the Rules of Golf. You are NOT in compliance with the Handicap Rules (which is what @Shilgy was referring to). It may not matter to you, but it matters to some of us.

 

dave

Hi Dave, I just read this:

https://www.randa.org/roh/the-rules-of-handicapping/rule-2

 

Where does it say if you play less than 14 and can’t enter a score ? 

Edited February 20 by st1800e

[Strategery]

59 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

I actually would argue that it's NOT arbitrary, but rather that 14 clubs hits a sort of natural "right" area for most players. 

 

I think 14 is sort of a "goldilocks" number where you're at the point of diminishing returns adding more clubs for gapping purposes and you have to make strategic decisions about what you do or do not carry if you want to carry a "specialty" club of any sort.

I agree that 14 appears to be a number that works well for most people. But... so what? Seems completely arbitrary to enshrine it in law for an activity whose sole purpose is to maximize entertainment. The ball goes further now, so gaps have opened. The wedge industry is positively booming while the top end is lagging. It's practically begging for driver, 2 x fwy, 3 x hybrid.

 

Here it is... ELI5: Why is there a limit?

 

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I actually would argue that it's NOT arbitrary, but rather that 14 clubs hits a sort of natural "right" area for most players. 

 

I think 14 is sort of a "goldilocks" number where you're at the point of diminishing returns adding more clubs for gapping purposes and you have to make strategic decisions about what you do or do not carry if you want to carry a "specialty" club of any sort. Want a chipper? Well you might have to drop that 5 wood and have a bigger gap between 3w and your longest iron/hybrid... 

 

I mean, ask yourself what you'd do if they made the limit 20 clubs? Would you carry a bunch more irons so your iron gapping was 6 yards instead of 11 yards between clubs? Probably not. The extra precision is probably beyond most of our ability to execute. Would you go out and buy a chipper and a rescue club, a mini-driver and a 9 wood, not to mention the lefty club you need to carry for that once-every-four-rounds situation where you get up against an obstacle and can't make a righty swing,? Probably not for how often you need it. 

 

Ask yourself what you'd do if the limit were 9. Would you feel that you had enough clubs with narrow enough distance gaps to cover your rounds? And at that level you'd basically have zero ability to carry any specialty clubs because 9 spots in the bag make distance gapping just too important to devote slots in the bag to anything else. 

 

Maybe there's a "zone" where anything from 12 to 16 is within a reasonable number for both covering gaps and making golfers think, and within that zone the number 14 is arbitrary. But the existence of the zone is natural, not arbitrary, IMHO. 

 

(BTW just thinking "out loud" with all of the above... Could be BS.)

 

It came into effect in 1938 and although there is speculation is that was the most common number of clubs carried, I've never seen anything authoritative (and it would be interesting to know).  Still, and it's all semantics for sure, whether 13, 14, 18 - those that enacted the rule picked a number, so I go with somewhat arbitrary without seeing some details - was it set makeup, concern for caddies (lol, I'm sure not, but still), encouraging more to get the "pro" income, encourage less so he wouldn't waste time making more clubs and focus on other tasks, haha?  

[betarhoalphadelta]

17 minutes ago, Strategery said:

I agree that 14 appears to be a number that works well for most people. But... so what? Seems completely arbitrary to enshrine it in law for an activity whose sole purpose is to maximize entertainment. The ball goes further now, so gaps have opened. The wedge industry is positively booming while the top end is lagging. It's practically begging for driver, 2 x fwy, 3 x hybrid.

 

Here it is... ELI5: Why is there a limit?

 

 

Well, if the sole purpose is to maximize entertainment, why have equipment rules at all? Why do we limit drivers to 460cc and specific COR numbers and then limit the ball via an ODS? 

 

Your question is more philosophical than anything... It's been commonplace in sports, games, etc, to have rules. Some of those rules have been based upon the nature of the equipment. Sometimes those rules create constraints that make the sport "harder" than it would be if no rule existed, but those who set up the rules think that they'll give participants a level playing field for competition by creating constraints. 

 

If you want there to be no limit on the number of clubs, I'm going to disagree with you but there's no point in arguing because we're operating from completely different premises. 

 

But if we can agree that a limit makes sense, I would argue that I don't see any compelling need to change it from 14, either direction. And no, I don't think increased distance really makes it more necessary--if it's "the ball goes farther", well, it goes farther with your irons too so the gap between driver and your longest iron isn't THAT much larger than it was before, right? And I think the push for more and more wedges is purely created by loft jacking because they've changed the club numbering such that anything over 40 degrees of loft most of the time is stamped wedge. 

[hollabachgt]

4 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

It came into effect in 1938 and although there is speculation is that was the most common number of clubs carried, I've never seen anything authoritative (and it would be interesting to know).  Still, and it's all semantics for sure, whether 13, 14, 18 - those that enacted the rule picked a number, so I go with somewhat arbitrary without seeing some details - was it set makeup, concern for caddies (lol, I'm sure not, but still), encouraging more to get the "pro" income, encourage less so he wouldn't waste time making more clubs and focus on other tasks, haha?  

The story goes it was the happy medium between what Bobby Jones carried (16) and Tony Torrance (12) The two men discussed it and settled on 14. A few years after the rule was implemented Robert Harris from the R&A said they did not go far enough and the limit should have been 10

[betarhoalphadelta]

7 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

It came into effect in 1938 and although there is speculation is that was the most common number of clubs carried, I've never seen anything authoritative (and it would be interesting to know).  Still, and it's all semantics for sure, whether 13, 14, 18 - those that enacted the rule picked a number, so I go with somewhat arbitrary without seeing some details - was it set makeup, concern for caddies (lol, I'm sure not, but still), encouraging more to get the "pro" income, encourage less so he wouldn't waste time making more clubs and focus on other tasks, haha?  

 

Yeah, I get you. I just didn't prefer the word "arbitrary" there... Arbitrary by definition suggests random choice or whim, whereas I don't think it was anything like that. 

 

I.e. if that was the most common number of clubs carried, setting a rule at that spot was deliberate and not arbitrary. It likely had to do with them looking at the common players of the time, what they needed from their bags, and said "you know what, 14 is enough--we're going to make a rule and if that's what most players use today, that's a good number to standardize on."

[hollabachgt]

On 2/17/2024 at 5:37 PM, iacas said:

I'm in favor of reducing it to 12 or even 11 (ten plus a putter), but equipment companies would HATE that.

Disagree. The equipment companies have already been able to move the standard iron set from 8 clubs to 7 and still charge the same amount of money.

If the club limit was reduced what would end up happening is players would begin to prioritize different parts of their bag. Do you carry less woods to afford you another wedge? Do you keep just one versatile wedge in your bag to make sure you have distance at the top end? Do you gap your irons in a way to give you tighter scoring clubs? This means the manufactures would need to provide a wider range of specialty clubs to fill these new roles in the players bags, Which in many ways they already do.

 

From high lofted fairway woods, to hybrids, to driving irons, to long irons they already produce a wide range of clubs who's usage can overlap each other. Add in their catalogs of wedges in a wide range of lofts, bounces, and grinds the club manufactures may make 10 unique clubs for every one you put in your bag. If the modern set becomes less of a "set" and more of a unique combination, they can charge more for each specialized club while expecting more experimentation among the player to figure out what works best for them.

Reducing the club count will impact how the golf consumer buys all clubs but the putter and driver.

[DaveLeeNC]

59 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Hi Dave, I just read this:

https://www.randa.org/roh/the-rules-of-handicapping/rule-2

 

Where does it say if you play less than 14 and can’t enter a score ? 

 

Rule 1.3 requires the golfer to 

• Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole,

Using only 2 clubs (my example) clearly violates that. For many golfers intentionally carrying only 10 would also violate that, although there are some for sure who really cannot take advantage of more than 10'ish clubs. 

 

dave

[Mudguard]

10 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

Rule 1.3 requires the golfer to 

• Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole,

Using only 2 clubs (my example) clearly violates that. For many golfers intentionally carrying only 10 would also violate that, although there are some for sure who really cannot take advantage of more than 10'ish clubs. 

 

dave

So if someone breaks their putter early on in a round and has to finish out with a wedge you're in violation? 

If you have only two clubs, you're still trying to make the best score possible. You're not violating the rules. Perhaps someone doing a Tin Cup on a hole over water peeling ball after ball into the water instead of taking a drop is also violating 1.3?

[SNIPERBBB]

17 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

So if someone breaks their putter early on in a round and has to finish out with a wedge you're in violation? 

If you have only two clubs, you're still trying to make the best score possible. You're not violating the rules. Perhaps someone doing a Tin Cup on a hole over water peeling ball after ball into the water instead of taking a drop is also violating 1.3?

"Best possible score" is a dangerous road to go down. 

 

Laying up to make mar or go for it to make eagle...play safe allowed or play aggressive is the only rounds that count? 

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

If you go out and play a round with a driver and a putter you are in compliance with the Rules of Golf. You are NOT in compliance with the Handicap Rules (which is what @Shilgy was referring to). It may not matter to you, but it matters to some of us.

 

dave

Exactly what I meant….although the funny thing is I did the same type of misread in the @rogolf post I replied to.  After rereading his post I realize he was referring the the 16 club idea-in the post he replied to-when he said you couldn’t post but I initially read it as the also you couldn’t post if you played with 8 or 9 clubs.

 

Which brings me back to my question….we both have now said you shouldn’t post with just a couple or three clubs in the bag as you are not honestly trying to post as good a score as possible….so where’s the cut off?  Is four enough? 8? Can anyone honestly say they will likely shoot as good a score on average with 8 clubs instead of 14?

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

 

 

Which brings me back to my question….we both have now said you shouldn’t post with just a couple or three clubs in the bag as you are not honestly trying to post as good a score as possible

Surely the rule is implying you should attempt to make your best score with the tools at your disposal.

If you lose your putter on the first or 18th hole why shouldn't you continue your round and post your score.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, hollabachgt said:

Disagree. The equipment companies have already been able to move the standard iron set from 8 clubs to 7 and still charge the same amount of money.

 

You can disagree of course, but:

• they may charge the same for 7 irons as they did for 8, but they also know they're selling a hybrid or a gap wedge
• the equipment companies with whom I've talked all oppose a reduction. 😄 

[st1800e]

7 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

For many golfers intentionally carrying only 10 would also violate that

I started the game with 7 clubs.   Probably a lot of players out there today with the same or similar for financial reasons.   Are they not allowed to have a handicap?    

[DaveLeeNC]

19 minutes ago, st1800e said:

For many golfers intentionally carrying only 10 would also violate that

 

20 minutes ago, st1800e said:

I started the game with 7 clubs.   Probably a lot of players out there today with the same or similar for financial reasons.   Are they not allowed to have a handicap?  

 

And that is why I stated 'many golfers' rather than just 'golfers' (which becomes more obvious if you quote the entire sentence). If you play with 7 clubs and that is how  you play, then post. If you show up at some high end member-guest with a handicap established with a 7 club set, but you have 14 clubs in your bag then I think that there are legitimate questions to be asked here (that might or might not have acceptable answers). 

 

dave

[Hawkeye77]

8 hours ago, hollabachgt said:

The story goes it was the happy medium between what Bobby Jones carried (16) and Tony Torrance (12) The two men discussed it and settled on 14. A few years after the rule was implemented Robert Harris from the R&A said they did not go far enough and the limit should have been 10

Actually, the myth is that someone asked them about it and that's what they supposedly carried in one of their prior championships, not that they actually determined the number, but it's told a few different ways for sure.  This is a pretty good article on the subject and I think it's somewhat telling it leaves out that particular legend, but . . . . who knows!

 

https://www.linksmagazine.com/why_14_clubs/

[st1800e]

46 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

If you play with 7 clubs and that is how  you play, then post. If you show up at some high end member-guest with a handicap established with a 7 club set, but you have 14 clubs in your bag then I think that there are legitimate questions to be asked here (that might or might not have acceptable answers). 

Dave this is the 14 club rule topic. At one point you said using less 14 clubs in your bag isn’t a valid score for entering a handicap. There’s no such reference/rule in the handicapping guidelines.  
 

Now as a further response you provide an example (in the quote above) of someone intentionally manipulating their handicap by using less or more clubs.   Yes, manipulating one’s handicap is a problem.
 

Sandbagging is not the the subject under debate in this topic.

  There’s other topics for that.  

The simple fact is you can play with 14 clubs or any number less. And enter the score.  
 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

5 minutes ago, st1800e said:

The simple fact is you can play with 14 clubs or any number less. And enter the score.

Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. And the line between the two is not straight forward. 

 

dave

[hollabachgt]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

 

You can disagree of course, but:

• they may charge the same for 7 irons as they did for 8, but they also know they're selling a hybrid or a gap wedge
• the equipment companies with whom I've talked all oppose a reduction. 😄 

Funny, the equipment companies I’ve spoken too are confident they can sell 10 clubs to players for the same price as 14. 😉

[Shankyouverymuch]

Went to Hawaii, not specifically for golf, but was certainly going to get a few rounds in.  I used Shipsticks and in order to fit both my bag and a friend's bag in my hard case and make the weight limit we both pared down to 10 clubs.  Played three rounds and it really made no difference in our scores.

[nitram]

Please leave it alone . . .

[Imp]

On 2/20/2024 at 12:49 PM, DaveLeeNC said:

 

Rule 1.3 requires the golfer to 

• Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole,

Using only 2 clubs (my example) clearly violates that. For many golfers intentionally carrying only 10 would also violate that, although there are some for sure who really cannot take advantage of more than 10'ish clubs. 

 

dave

Make your best score using as many clubs you need to do so, understanding the max is 14. It's up to the player to determine how many is best for them to achieve the possibility of a best score.  

 

 

[JohnB92]

On 2/17/2024 at 9:40 PM, dugue4 said:

I think it should be 18 clubs.  One exclusive for each hole.

That's how Kim Jung Ill shot his famous 36. He had one perfect club for each hole and swung it twice. 

[Strategery]

On 2/20/2024 at 9:49 AM, DaveLeeNC said:

Rule 1.3 requires the golfer to 

• Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole,

 

That is for competition purposes only, as are virtually all the rules. Plenty of people play golf without really trying to make a score. Back on topic...

 

The 14 club max rule is stupid and archaic. Let people carry more, don't be a pedantic pantywaist. It's no different than trying to control how comfortable your shoes are, how your clothes fit, the number of practice swings you can take, the number of balls you can carry: It is overreach into personal preference which has ZERO impact on the nature, safety, or accessibility of the game.

[sui generis]

It's been awhile since some fool stumbled into here, the Rules folder, and claimed that the Rules are "stupid." 🙄

[DaveLeeNC]

On 2/20/2024 at 12:49 PM, DaveLeeNC said:

Rule 1.3 requires the golfer to 

• Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole,

 

8 hours ago, Strategery said:

That is for competition purposes only, as are virtually all the rules. Plenty of people play golf without really trying to make a score. Back on topic...

 

The 14 club max rule is stupid and archaic. Let people carry more, don't be a pedantic pantywaist. It's no different than trying to control how comfortable your shoes are, how your clothes fit, the number of practice swings you can take, the number of balls you can carry: It is overreach into personal preference which has ZERO impact on the nature, safety, or accessibility of the game.

 

Quoted Rule 1.3 is a HANDICAP RULE which applies to all rounds that are POSTED FOR HANDICAP (which most certainly applies to rounds other than competition rounds). You are free to ignore all of the Handicap Rules if you don't post a score. 

 

dave

[bekgolf]

A post on the amount of clubs allowed means we are late into the winter, spring is almost here.  WooHoo!

[rzitup]

On 2/17/2024 at 1:20 PM, rzitup said:

The 14 club rule was implemented by the USGA and R&A in 1938.  Since then, technology has advanced clubs drastically, adding hybrids, more wedges and fairway woods.  Back then the typical bag consisted of four woos, 9 irons and a putter. 

 

Has the USGA ever considered increasing the number?  At this point 14 seems pretty arbitrary, although maybe still relevant?  Would an increase to say, 16, be met with applause or scorn?

 

In most all of the responses to date, no one has really discussed the premise for my making this post, which is the 14 clubs as it pertains to the "typical" set of clubs, and advancing technology.  

I get the personal preference responses, and those that think they are better with less clubs or there is just no reason to change it.  I have played a handful of rounds with 3, 4 and 5 clubs, and I have never had issues (it eases the brain!).  

 

But I am struggling to see the correlation between;

 

1938 - set of clubs was limited to 3-4 woods, 9 irons and a putter.

2024 - 2 - 11 wood, 2 - 9 iron, and a range of maybe 6 wedges?  A putter, some chippers, mini drivers, and more that I am sure I am missing.  

 

Technology, the length of the game, better course conditions (?) and other stuff have advanced the sport.  And while I personally dont really have a preference, I struggle to see why the max clubs wouldnt be considered archaic given the more options available today?

[DaveLeeNC]

21 minutes ago, rzitup said:

 

In most all of the responses to date, no one has really discussed the premise for my making this post, which is the 14 clubs as it pertains to the "typical" set of clubs, and advancing technology.  

I get the personal preference responses, and those that think they are better with less clubs or there is just no reason to change it.  I have played a handful of rounds with 3, 4 and 5 clubs, and I have never had issues (it eases the brain!).  

 

But I am struggling to see the correlation between;

 

1938 - set of clubs was limited to 3-4 woods, 9 irons and a putter.

2024 - 2 - 11 wood, 2 - 9 iron, and a range of maybe 6 wedges?  A putter, some chippers, mini drivers, and more that I am sure I am missing.  

 

Technology, the length of the game, better course conditions (?) and other stuff have advanced the sport.  And while I personally dont really have a preference, I struggle to see why the max clubs wouldnt be considered archaic given the more options available today?

 

Actually the impetus behind the limit was literally due to technology advances (relative to that time). With the transition to steel shafts from hickory, golfers at the highest level were carrying WELL in excess of 14 clubs (carrying a broad mixture of both hickory and steel shafts) in 1938 and the RB's were trying to address the 'problem' of golfers carrying too many clubs. 

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/did-you-know-the-origins-of-the-14-club-limit

 

dave

Edited February 27 by DaveLeeNC

[Pepperturbo]

The max 14 club rule is really only a concern for people that play in USGA events.  From what I have seen at munis many people don't give that rule a second thought.  

 

I can easily play with fewer clubs, don't need more than 14.  Therefore, I would not like it if they were to increase number of clubs.  More clubs would be ludicrous given many people are not efficient with 14.

Edited February 27 by Pepperturbo