Wedges for Chipping off Tight Lies

[BCULAW]

Hey, all.  I am really struggling with my short game.  I used to be really proficient playing a lot of chips around the green with a straight leading edge.  Since coming to Texas, those shots have become very grabby on tight lies in the Bermuda.  So grabby in fact, that I have lost all feel for them.  I'm playing the Vokey SM7 58/08, and the leading edge just sticks in, or bounces off, the turf when I play this shot.  I've developed some other techniques using the bounce of the sole with variations of open face, but I'm nowhere near as good around the greens.  Wondering if more bounce or a different grind might help.  

[st1800e]

Some commentary here.  
 

 

[JCRISWELL]

I've enjoyed the 58* V grind. Very similar to M grind just slightly more bounce. I also do a lot of chips with the toe down to keep it from digging. 

[ShortGolfer]

I like the Callaway Jaws Raw 58/8 Z grind.  It is designed not to dig.

I was lucky to find one in ladies flex.  Raw faces may not be as durable but I don't swing hard enough for that to matter.

 

I use it whenever I have a tight lie on grass.

I also have a Ping 58/6 TS that I use when I want to pick the ball off dirt or wet sand.

Edited March 22 by ShortGolfer

[Jeff58]

As indicated above, Callaway is the leader in addressing the situation, to the point that they have 2 models. With Vokey, you can order a custom pre-worn leading edge, but I think trying a Callaway C would be a better and less expensive solution.

 

[Cliffy2020]

Equipment aside, here’s some technique work from Dan the Man

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

1 hour ago, BCULAW said:

Hey, all.  I am really struggling with my short game.  I used to be really proficient playing a lot of chips around the green with a straight leading edge.  Since coming to Texas, those shots have become very grabby on tight lies in the Bermuda.  So grabby in fact, that I have lost all feel for them.  I'm playing the Vokey SM7 58/08, and the leading edge just sticks in, or bounces off, the turf when I play this shot.  I've developed some other techniques using the bounce of the sole with variations of open face, but I'm nowhere near as good around the greens.  Wondering if more bounce or a different grind might help.  

Sounds as if you need to work on technique.  No one wedge answers all conditions without extensive practice.  

I have been using Vokey M58/8 on tight lies and fluffy/damp conditions and all types of turf since 2016, without issue. 

Sure, there are problematic lies, but we adapt.  More bounce will be useful in fluffy/damp conditions but will require significant effort on technique for tight lies.   Using PW, Gap and LW, I practice near daily in my office, down the hall to a net in an office door.  That's why I carry a F52/12 Gap and M58/8 LW, those two wedges, and PW, handle all conditions for me.  The Gap with 12' of bounce is good for longer bunker shots as well as from fairway out to 100yds, PW handles longer shots.  LW handles most everything around the green, and greenside bunkers, out to 75yds.

[Kale_m]

What do you play for a lie angle? 
 

Try bending them really flat. 
 

I am at 4 flat right now and it is game changing 

[Brooks_Cupcake]

46 minutes ago, Kale_m said:

What do you play for a lie angle? 
 

Try bending them really flat. 
 

I am at 4 flat right now and it is game changing 

it’s standard on tour builds to go 1* flat off the player’s standard for irons. Meaning if you have a 63* 9 iron your PW should start at 62* and so on.

[bsb70x7]

Go with Vokey SM-10 T grind off of tight lies. The Low Bounce K is also an option.  

[ChaosTheory]

2 hours ago, BCULAW said:

Hey, all.  I am really struggling with my short game.  I used to be really proficient playing a lot of chips around the green with a straight leading edge.  Since coming to Texas, those shots have become very grabby on tight lies in the Bermuda.  So grabby in fact, that I have lost all feel for them.  I'm playing the Vokey SM7 58/08, and the leading edge just sticks in, or bounces off, the turf when I play this shot.  I've developed some other techniques using the bounce of the sole with variations of open face, but I'm nowhere near as good around the greens.  Wondering if more bounce or a different grind might help.  

I moved to Texas 3 years ago.  I’m just now coming to terms with this issue.  A friendly leading edge helps.  A lot of bounce helps, because you have to employ a specific technique.  Again, we are talking about the tight lies.

You need toe down/ heel up.  You need some forward shaft lean.  (Well, I do.)  Take the slack out of your arms and club unit so that you are only lightly setting the club on the ground.    Make a short, shallow, brisk stroke, just barely engaging the ground.  
 

I am not saying pick it clean.  I’m saying minimize the depth.

This video was the lightbulb moment for me.  I already knew the toe down part, but I was still counting on the bounce.  This method does not depend on bounce, but bounce makes it easier.

 

 

Edited March 22 by ChaosTheory

[Kale_m]

9 minutes ago, Brooks_Cupcake said:

it’s standard on tour builds to go 1* flat off the player’s standard for irons. Meaning if you have a 63* 9 iron your PW should start at 62* and so on.

That’s fine. Read up on what lots of club fitters do, well documented how flatter wedges are preferred by many players. 
 

try it , you might be pleasantly surprised 

[dcfas]

Until my present set of clubs I used to bend my clubs flat by at least a couple of degrees. The fitters were always surprised because my swing is somewhat upright and outside in. But the strike plate always indicated I needed to flatten. 
 

It’s a mystery. Like entangled particles.

[Tinkerer]

In Australia but switched last year to a course with much tighter lies. Same issue. Changed wedges to Cobra SnakeBites and had a lesson where I am now more upright, with the toe down and plenty of weight on my left leg, I play RH. This helped immensely. 

[hammergolf]

3 hours ago, BCULAW said:

Hey, all.  I am really struggling with my short game.  I used to be really proficient playing a lot of chips around the green with a straight leading edge.  Since coming to Texas, those shots have become very grabby on tight lies in the Bermuda.  So grabby in fact, that I have lost all feel for them.  I'm playing the Vokey SM7 58/08, and the leading edge just sticks in, or bounces off, the turf when I play this shot.  I've developed some other techniques using the bounce of the sole with variations of open face, but I'm nowhere near as good around the greens.  Wondering if more bounce or a different grind might help.  

It’s all about controlling the leading edge. Very easy fix for that. Work on trying to maintain the angle in your right wrist (for RH golfer) through your pivot. In addition, keep the shaft vertical with no forward lean. The less shaft lean and less you increase your wrist angle the more control you’ll have of the leading edge and more you’ll use the bounce.

[BCULAW]

25 minutes ago, dcfas said:

Until my present set of clubs I used to bend my clubs flat by at least a couple of degrees. The fitters were always surprised because my swing is somewhat upright and outside in. But the strike plate always indicated I needed to flatten. 
 

It’s a mystery. Like entangled particles.

This is very interesting to me. Every fitting I have ever gone to, I fit squarely into 2° upright lie angles (and heavy, extra stiff shafts, usually KBS tour 130 X).  My game is not sharp right now, that I had actually considered putting an old set of irons that are 3° flat back in the bag. I may do this with wedges to see what happens.I swear I play my best golf at 2 to 3° flat with much softer shafts in the regular flex range. My game is not sharp right now, that I had actually considered putting an old set of irons that are 3° flat back in the bag. I may do this with wedges to see what happens.

[tomg1969]

18 minutes ago, BCULAW said:

This is very interesting to me. Every fitting I have ever gone to, I fit squarely into 2° upright lie angles (and heavy, extra stiff shafts, usually KBS tour 130 X).  My game is not sharp right now, that I had actually considered putting an old set of irons that are 3° flat back in the bag. I may do this with wedges to see what happens.I swear I play my best golf at 2 to 3° flat with much softer shafts in the regular flex range. My game is not sharp right now, that I had actually considered putting an old set of irons that are 3° flat back in the bag. I may do this with wedges to see what happens.

Flat wedges coupled with toe down technique will be like magic. Give it a shot

[20footputt]

I just use a putter if the lie is that tight 

[cjblake09]

38 minutes ago, 20footputt said:

I just use a putter if the lie is that tight 

100% agree and being from TX and had the same issues i just putt it now.   

[Ethan DelGrosso]

4 hours ago, bsb70x7 said:

Go with Vokey SM-10 T grind off of tight lies. The Low Bounce K is also an option.  

Played a T this past year and loved it but it digs a bit for me. I also play in CT lol so I can’t extrapolate as well to the south. Just picked up a low bounce K and played one round with it and LOVE it. Obviously I do not need that low of bounce in CT but these wedges are both super fun. The K just digs less for me.

[wam78]

I’ve lived in DFW area for the last 7 years and have learned to use more bounce.  I have my builder grind my wedges to soften the leading edge, heel and trailing edge.  Has been game changing for me.

[bnperrone]

1 hour ago, cjblake09 said:

100% agree and being from TX and had the same issues i just putt it now.   

Another vote for putter.

 

It’s hard to overstate my dislike for Bermuda grass, but 20+ years I moved to coastal SC, so it is what it is. 
 

That said, I feel like if I get a lie where it’s trying to grab it usually helps to just slightly open the face if going to a lower lofted pw or gap or something isn’t an option. 

[BCULAW]

It’s encouraging to hear other Texans dealing with the same issues. I’ve had a fair to strong short game in the past. The turf conditions here are definitely different. Thin grass over sticky clay is no easy issue to deal with if you use a straight leading edge. I’ve got more flop shots and open faced pitches in the last month than in the last ten years combined!

[PlatinumNike]

12 hours ago, BCULAW said:

Hey, all.  I am really struggling with my short game.  I used to be really proficient playing a lot of chips around the green with a straight leading edge.  Since coming to Texas, those shots have become very grabby on tight lies in the Bermuda.  So grabby in fact, that I have lost all feel for them.  I'm playing the Vokey SM7 58/08, and the leading edge just sticks in, or bounces off, the turf when I play this shot.  I've developed some other techniques using the bounce of the sole with variations of open face, but I'm nowhere near as good around the greens.  Wondering if more bounce or a different grind might help.  

in addition to below, I’m not sure if this is the video he mentions it but 9 irons are really nice options. 

 

 

Edited March 23 by PlatinumNike

[JungleJimbo]

13 hours ago, BCULAW said:

Hey, all.  I am really struggling with my short game.  I used to be really proficient playing a lot of chips around the green with a straight leading edge.  Since coming to Texas, those shots have become very grabby on tight lies in the Bermuda.  So grabby in fact, that I have lost all feel for them.  I'm playing the Vokey SM7 58/08, and the leading edge just sticks in, or bounces off, the turf when I play this shot.  I've developed some other techniques using the bounce of the sole with variations of open face, but I'm nowhere near as good around the greens.  Wondering if more bounce or a different grind might help.  

 

@BCULAW Ever considered using a hybrid for these chips around the green?

e.g. Cobra F7 hybrid, with the rails. (genuine comment, i.e. not being facetious)

 

[North Butte]

It's an extreme I doubt you want to go for but, almost at random, I decided a few months ago to try a Vokey K-grind wedge (mine's a 58K) and even though that bulbous-looking sole seems like it would be scary off tight lies, it has been a revelation. I think now I truly buy into the "bounce if your friend" that so many people have been preached the last decade or two.

 

Even off tight, grabby Bermuda the K-grind does not seem to make me drop-kick the ball or any other negative result. I can still screw up wedge shots from that or any lie (trust me on that!) but the K-grind lets me screw up about half as often as I did with M-grind, D-grind or F-grind wedges. 

 

With all that said, at some point I just putt the darned thing when the grain is against me, the lie is tie and the ground is damp or soft. At some point, no wedge in the world is going to let a double-digit handicapper like me have success off the truly nasty lies.

[VA_Astra]

I changed my wedges once I arrived to TX. RTX 6 54 and 58.

58 is Low and 54 is mid. I can use my 58 almost anywhere inside of 40 yards around the green. Raining or sloppy conditions, I can always move to the 54.

Spin more than Vokey and work amazing off the tight lies.

[ChaosTheory]

10 hours ago, BCULAW said:

It’s encouraging to hear other Texans dealing with the same issues. I’ve had a fair to strong short game in the past. The turf conditions here are definitely different. Thin grass over sticky clay is no easy issue to deal with if you use a straight leading edge. I’ve got more flop shots and open faced pitches in the last month than in the last ten years combined!

Yeah, the advice to use putter, hybrid, 9 iron, doesn’t address what you are getting at.   Namely, when you need air on the shot.  Some of the lies right now will just swallow up the bounce and leave you disgusted.  If you are going to use bounce in these conditions, use a lot of it.  CBX wedge or something like that.  
They are popular around my course, and I have one.  But right now, the method in that Billy Horschel video is much more dependable.  

[North Butte]

3 minutes ago, ChaosTheory said:

Namely, when you need air on the shot.  Some of the lies right now will just swallow up the bounce and leave you disgusted.  If you are going to use bounce in these conditions, use a lot of it.  CBX wedge or something like that. 

That's what my K-grind is, basically Vokey's version of a CBX or Mack Daddy CB wedge. I've used the Callaway 1st-gen CB for a while back when they came out and the K-grind reminds me of it. Of course Vokey recommends it mostly as a get-out-of-jail-free caliber bunker club but I actually use a different wedge out of sand most of the time, go figure. 

 

Even if you (accidentally or on purpose) get your hands a little ahead of the ball at impact, that style of wedge is never going to get "swallow[ed] up" by those wicked lies. 

 

A confusing thing is the whole numeric bounce thing. Some brands are labelled with the measured bounce angle (although measurement methods vary) while Vokeys and others are "effective bounce" trying to use some formulas and fudge factors to suggest the combined effect of bounce angle and sole width. IMO you really have to eyeball the entire sole and leading edge configuration and make a judgment call rather than relying on the number.

[cjblake09]

The problem for me at least in north Texas is what grass we have is still mostly dormant and and you are chipping off basically just mud.  So you need to pick it clean or just putt it.