When Equipment Has Gone Too Far

[Bad9]

 

Tom, great points as usual. One thing I would say regarding the ball is that when I started playing in the early 1980s, the Pros didn’t play the same balls as most recreational players. The pros and top amateurs played balata because they were skilled ballstrikers (and they got them for free!) and we all played cheaper, surlyn covered balls that went further, spun less all round, lasted longer and were affordable. With balata there was a trade off - they were a lot easier to control around the green, but a lot harder to control off the tee. The modern ball, comparatively, is having your cake and eating it.

 

I do think that some of the top pros nowadays do not have to be as skilled at striking the ball with the longer clubs as there is a larger margin for error with both the clubs and ball - Short game not so much because that is much more about feel anyway.

 

That's why in my original post I made a point I was addressing the OP's concern about CLUBS and not the ball. There is no question that at the tour player level, the switch from wound to multi layer has made a change. It's not nearly that way with everyone else but then too that's understandable because so many of the equipment changes over the years are such that the more consistent the player's swing, the more chance they have of noticing a performance difference.

 

Tom, I suggested in an earlier post that perhaps balls could be made to have consistent spin profiles in that a ball that has high spin around the green would also then have to have high spin with the driver, same with low spin balls and then a mid-spin ball between the two. This would sort of rule out imposed bifurcation in that you could choose to play the same ball as anyone else, the only limit being your own skill level.

 

In my mind this would help to identify the outstanding ballstrikers as they would still be able to hit the high spin ball long but also straight. Any amount of side spin would cause the ball to curve offline with obviously the high spin balls deviating further. The low spin balls would still be long with less deviation but would lose a certain level of control around the green. Recreational players who ‘need’ distance in their games would not be penalised as they could choose the low spin ball, with the short game taking a slight hit in the feel stakes.

 

To me this approach would have the minimum impact on current clubs, would possibly identify the best pro golfers and would minimise the impact on recreational players with a possible outcome that overall driving distance averages come down. Obviously this would not work if all pro golfers hit the ball that well that they do not put significant amounts of side spin on the ball on long shots? Is this something that you have experience of and can comment on?

 

What pro golfers are being overlooked because they not hit it as far as DJ, Rory and the other few really good drivers of the ball

[mahonie]

 

 

The world rankings and major championships already identify the best pro golfers. They are all playing the same game. Dustin Johnson pounds the ball. He is also very accurate off the tee, especially give how much ball speed he produces. He uses his God given talents to do so. He has worked hard over the years to be a deadly combination of athletic and accurate. He didn't climb the rankings like this until he dialed in his short game, which he is also very good at. Dumbing down the equipment so that someone with a 105 driver SS has a chance to beat him is silly. In other sports, they don't change the rules so slower/weaker players have a better chance. I think a lot of pros have the ability to step on it and pick up significant speed. But, to do that and expect to remain accurate is difficult. Punishing those that can is just silly.

 

That is my point. If DJ is that accurate off the tee with his speed, he will still bomb it long and straight. However, if he does generate excessive side spin (which Pro V1 and its ilk mask) a high spin ball will highlight the mishit and he will be offline. Elite ballstrikers will have nothing to worry about if they are delivering a relatively square-to-target club face.

 

Thing is, DJ may well be the best ballstriker out there and his short game, as you say, really is amongst the best these days. His game really is maxed to the current equipment no doubt and he is a very talented. I just wander if the ball is made to spin consistently for both long and short shots, whether DJ would keep the ball on the property and be as accurate as he is now or is he gaining an unfair advantage just because he can swing the driver faster and back it up with good wedge play and putting.

[North Butte]

What is unfair about hitting the ball harder than anyone else while also hitting it straighter than 99.9999% of golfers in the world?

 

That bloody-minded comment right there is the essence of this complaint. How on earth is having both skill and talent supposed to be NOT an advantage. That’s simply nonsense.

 

Why not say Jordan Spieth makes too many 20-foot putts so he ought to be forced to use an egg-shaped golf ball?

[radiman]

The world rankings and major championships already identify the best pro golfers. They are all playing the same game. Dustin Johnson pounds the ball. He is also very accurate off the tee, especially give how much ball speed he produces. He uses his God given talents to do so. He has worked hard over the years to be a deadly combination of athletic and accurate. He didn't climb the rankings like this until he dialed in his short game, which he is also very good at. Dumbing down the equipment so that someone with a 105 driver SS has a chance to beat him is silly. In other sports, they don't change the rules so slower/weaker players have a better chance. I think a lot of pros have the ability to step on it and pick up significant speed. But, to do that and expect to remain accurate is difficult. Punishing those that can is just silly.

 

That is my point. If DJ is that accurate off the tee with his speed, he will still bomb it long and straight. However, if he does generate excessive side spin (which Pro V1 and its ilk mask) a high spin ball will highlight the mishit and he will be offline. Elite ballstrikers will have nothing to worry about if they are delivering a relatively square-to-target club face.

 

Thing is, DJ may well be the best ballstriker out there and his short game, as you say, really is amongst the best these days. His game really is maxed to the current equipment no doubt and he is a very talented. I just wander if the ball is made to spin consistently for both long and short shots, whether DJ would keep the ball on the property and be as accurate as he is now or is he gaining an unfair advantage just because he can swing the driver faster and back it up with good wedge play and putting.

 

Excessive spin would punish him more than other players that generate less speed. So, if he and a slow swinger both hit an offline shot. Due to his high ball speed, chances are he would generate more spin naturally, not to mention that his ball would be further offline since it is traveling a greater distance. With that theory, it actually punishes stronger players to the benefit of the shorter hitters.

[Sean2]

What is unfair about hitting the ball harder than anyone else while also hitting it straighter than 99.9999% of golfers in the world?

 

That bloody-minded comment right there is the essence of this complaint. How on earth is having both skill and talent supposed to be NOT an advantage. That’s simply nonsense.

 

Why not say Jordan Spieth makes too many 20-foot putts so he ought to be forced to use an egg-shaped golf ball?

 

There are some people these days who take umbrage if an individual is better at something than other individuals. Everyone deserves a trophy. lol

[augustgolf]

Me and my golfing contemporaries are retired people in our 60's, 70s and even 80s. The last thing we want/need is for the ball to travel a shorter distance. It's hard enough to score well and many of us are on our last set of tees.

 

Careful what you say there, friend....I resemble that remark

[mahonie]

The world rankings and major championships already identify the best pro golfers. They are all playing the same game. Dustin Johnson pounds the ball. He is also very accurate off the tee, especially give how much ball speed he produces. He uses his God given talents to do so. He has worked hard over the years to be a deadly combination of athletic and accurate. He didn't climb the rankings like this until he dialed in his short game, which he is also very good at. Dumbing down the equipment so that someone with a 105 driver SS has a chance to beat him is silly. In other sports, they don't change the rules so slower/weaker players have a better chance. I think a lot of pros have the ability to step on it and pick up significant speed. But, to do that and expect to remain accurate is difficult. Punishing those that can is just silly.

 

That is my point. If DJ is that accurate off the tee with his speed, he will still bomb it long and straight. However, if he does generate excessive side spin (which Pro V1 and its ilk mask) a high spin ball will highlight the mishit and he will be offline. Elite ballstrikers will have nothing to worry about if they are delivering a relatively square-to-target club face.

 

Thing is, DJ may well be the best ballstriker out there and his short game, as you say, really is amongst the best these days. His game really is maxed to the current equipment no doubt and he is a very talented. I just wander if the ball is made to spin consistently for both long and short shots, whether DJ would keep the ball on the property and be as accurate as he is now or is he gaining an unfair advantage just because he can swing the driver faster and back it up with good wedge play and putting.

 

Excessive spin would punish him more than other players that generate less speed. So, if he and a slow swinger both hit an offline shot. Due to his high ball speed, chances are he would generate more spin naturally, not to mention that his ball would be further offline since it is traveling a greater distance. With that theory, it actually punishes stronger players to the benefit of the shorter hitters.

 

It doesn’t punish him if he hits the ball with a relatively square-to-path club face...he will still hit the ball further with his faster club speed. Isn’t that what an elite ballstriker is supposed to do?

[North Butte]

Yeah those TP5X have magical mishit-correcting properties.

[Nard_S]

Adding more initial spin back to the ball would shrink fairways and greens without effecting distance one inch. It's the easiest, cheapest and fairest way to engage in any "rollback" that might ever take place.

[dciccoritti]

Adding more initial spin back to the ball would shrink fairways and greens without effecting distance one inch. It's the easiest, cheapest and fairest way to engage in any "rollback" that might ever take place.

 

Completely agree!!!

[TollBros]

What is unfair about hitting the ball harder than anyone else while also hitting it straighter than 99.9999% of golfers in the world?

 

That bloody-minded comment right there is the essence of this complaint. How on earth is having both skill and talent supposed to be NOT an advantage. That’s simply nonsense.

 

Why not say Jordan Spieth makes too many 20-foot putts so he ought to be forced to use an egg-shaped golf ball?

 

I agree completely. Elite althletic ability combined with tremendous feel and hand eye coordination is NOT an UNFAIR advantage. It's superior ability. Nobody wanted to put ankle weights on Michael Jordan because he had an UNFAIR ability to jump. He was just simply better than everyone else, the same way DJ is. How on Earth could anyone be in favor of excessively punishing the player of superior ability except those without it.

[radiman]

What is unfair about hitting the ball harder than anyone else while also hitting it straighter than 99.9999% of golfers in the world?

 

That bloody-minded comment right there is the essence of this complaint. How on earth is having both skill and talent supposed to be NOT an advantage. That’s simply nonsense.

 

Why not say Jordan Spieth makes too many 20-foot putts so he ought to be forced to use an egg-shaped golf ball?

 

I agree completely. Elite althletic ability combined with tremendous feel and hand eye coordination is NOT an UNFAIR advantage. It's superior ability. Nobody wanted to put ankle weights on Michael Jordan because he had an UNFAIR ability to jump. He was just simply better than everyone else, the same way DJ is. How on Earth could anyone be in favor of excessively punishing the player of superior ability except those without it.

 

Well said. I kind of wonder what the age group is of each stance. I don't mean any offense by it. I started golfing in the late 90's. Just before Tiger-mania started. When he came on the scene, that was what I felt golf should be. Crushing drives and sticking approach shots.

 

I wonder if those who are lobbying for a rollback came from a previous era before tiger took the game by storm.

[TollBros]

What is unfair about hitting the ball harder than anyone else while also hitting it straighter than 99.9999% of golfers in the world?

 

That bloody-minded comment right there is the essence of this complaint. How on earth is having both skill and talent supposed to be NOT an advantage. That’s simply nonsense.

 

Why not say Jordan Spieth makes too many 20-foot putts so he ought to be forced to use an egg-shaped golf ball?

 

I agree completely. Elite althletic ability combined with tremendous feel and hand eye coordination is NOT an UNFAIR advantage. It's superior ability. Nobody wanted to put ankle weights on Michael Jordan because he had an UNFAIR ability to jump. He was just simply better than everyone else, the same way DJ is. How on Earth could anyone be in favor of excessively punishing the player of superior ability except those without it.

 

Well said. I kind of wonder what the age group is of each stance. I don't mean any offense by it. I started golfing in the late 90's. Just before Tiger-mania started. When he came on the scene, that was what I felt golf should be. Crushing drives and sticking approach shots.

 

I wonder if those who are lobbying for a rollback came from a previous era before tiger took the game by storm.

 

I would say most who would be in favor of a roll back don't play competitive golf anymore. Older retired former competitive players are the only guys I ever hear this from.

[augustgolf]

Adding more initial spin back to the ball would shrink fairways and greens without effecting distance one inch. It's the easiest, cheapest and fairest way to engage in any "rollback" that might ever take place.

 

This exact scenario - the movement from one type construction/size/weight ball - to another has already historically happened.

 

At one point in time, you could play The Open Championship with your choice of either the British ball (smaller and lighter) or the American ball....up to a point where you could only use the larger ball that is today's standard for size/weight.

 

For the record, I have nothing against the stronger player hitting the ball further. Growing up, that was always something players had to compete against. At that time, however, that "stronger" player was punished more if his/her hits weren't as square, causing the ball to fly further off line.

 

By bringing the spin back to the ball, that is exactly what would happen. A well struck shot, hit squarely with the face/path square would still fly appropriately, while one that was less square on contact would more penalize the faulty strike.

 

That, I think, is what is missing today. I'll agree that the world's best players rarely miss the optimum point of contact my much, and not very often, but the fact that the ball does spin less off-line actually rewards the overly hard swinger without as much risk of penalty.

 

And, I haven't played a course over 7200 yards for over 10 years....I could break par then, but as I've aged, I don't value hitting fairway woods into each and (almost) every par 4 on the course. Bringing the appropriate spin back to the game, along with "slowing" the fairways, tightening the landing areas, and more penal pin placements would bring shotmaking back to the game for each and every level of player without the need to do anything with equipment other than the spin of the ball.

[Nard_S]

What is unfair about hitting the ball harder than anyone else while also hitting it straighter than 99.9999% of golfers in the world?

 

That bloody-minded comment right there is the essence of this complaint. How on earth is having both skill and talent supposed to be NOT an advantage. That's simply nonsense.

 

Why not say Jordan Spieth makes too many 20-foot putts so he ought to be forced to use an egg-shaped golf ball?

 

I agree completely. Elite althletic ability combined with tremendous feel and hand eye coordination is NOT an UNFAIR advantage. It's superior ability. Nobody wanted to put ankle weights on Michael Jordan because he had an UNFAIR ability to jump. He was just simply better than everyone else, the same way DJ is. How on Earth could anyone be in favor of excessively punishing the player of superior ability except those without it.

 

Well said. I kind of wonder what the age group is of each stance. I don't mean any offense by it. I started golfing in the late 90's. Just before Tiger-mania started. When he came on the scene, that was what I felt golf should be. Crushing drives and sticking approach shots.

 

I wonder if those who are lobbying for a rollback came from a previous era before tiger took the game by storm.

 

I'm 54 , fit, carry my own bag and have zero distance envy. Think Tiger at least for several years was probably best golfer to walk the planet.

[dciccoritti]

What is unfair about hitting the ball harder than anyone else while also hitting it straighter than 99.9999% of golfers in the world?

 

That bloody-minded comment right there is the essence of this complaint. How on earth is having both skill and talent supposed to be NOT an advantage. That's simply nonsense.

 

Why not say Jordan Spieth makes too many 20-foot putts so he ought to be forced to use an egg-shaped golf ball?

 

I agree completely. Elite althletic ability combined with tremendous feel and hand eye coordination is NOT an UNFAIR advantage. It's superior ability. Nobody wanted to put ankle weights on Michael Jordan because he had an UNFAIR ability to jump. He was just simply better than everyone else, the same way DJ is. How on Earth could anyone be in favor of excessively punishing the player of superior ability except those without it.

 

Well said. I kind of wonder what the age group is of each stance. I don't mean any offense by it. I started golfing in the late 90's. Just before Tiger-mania started. When he came on the scene, that was what I felt golf should be. Crushing drives and sticking approach shots.

 

I wonder if those who are lobbying for a rollback came from a previous era before tiger took the game by storm.

 

I don't think it's necessarily a question of era as it is a question of how one looks at it. You see, I think crushing drives and hitting wedges is very one dimensional. In fact, I'd even go so far as to call it childish. Sort of an inability to appreciate complexity and variety.

 

I'm a big fan of Tiger but the people who think distance is what made him great, probably think 4 Track recording is what made the Beatles great.

 

Either way, the game of golf will have to wrestle with these opposing view points and profits will ultimately dictate it's direction.

[bladehunter]

I see nothing in that paragraph that answers the question I asked. Unless you are assuming that distance is capped and tech will no longer evolve any further. If that's the case it isn't stated here.

 

Not to mention the other half of the equation. Speed. As in are we expecting sweet spot to increase to the point that 140 mph guys can exist on tour ?

 

Well then as a 31 yr clubhead designer, I will go ahead and tell you that distance is capped and tech will never evolve any further WITH RESPECT TO THE CLUBHEAD. What they end up doing with the ball, I can't speak of because I am not a ball expert by any means. A lot of ball experts feel the USGA screwed this up back in the early 2000s when they re did the overall distance standard. Several ball experts feel the new ODS opened the door for new ball construction to bring about improvements to better and elite players that should not have been allowed. Not being a ball guy, I am not the one to talk to about that.

 

Don't have the time now to elaborate point by point on this but I can surely do so. Probably kinda stupid for me as a club head designer to elaborate on that, don't you think? I mean, it is sort of like cutting my own throat to admit that, right? But it's true. We are at the limit for head technology, if you define head technology as a feature that works for EVERY golfer and not just a few depending on their swing.

 

 

On your second statement, I am sorry, but I am not sure what you mean when you question if a sweet spot increase (aka more off center hit forgiveness) can allow a 140mph player to exist on tour.

 

The main thing that prevents such a player from making it on tour is plain and simple the fact that at that high of a speed, the margin for error on accuracy is so much smaller than it is for a lower speed. A guy with a 140 mph speed would have to deliver the face more square to the ball to keep it in play than a guy with a 120mph speed. A clubface that is 1/2* open or closed at impact for a 140mph clubhead speed is going to hit the ball farther off line than a 1/2* open/closed face on a club swung at 120 mph.

 

Also a guy with a 140 mph clubhead speed is going to fight the effect of wind more than those with slower speeds. A shot hit with >200-210mph ball speed is going to fly higher and it's going to stay in the air longer than a shot hit with a 175-80mph ball speed. All shots decay in speed A LOT as they hang and fly. In fact, the landing ball speed of a shot hit at 200mph vs 175mph is only about 10mph difference due to the manner in which the ball's flight decays. So if the shot is in the air higher and longer, the wind is going to affect it more and make it more difficult for the player to control the ball.

 

This is really why clubhead speed is somewhat of a limiting factor. Look at Bubba now. Look at Daly. Look at the guys over the past 10 yrs who are at the very top of the list for driving distance. Not many of them are at the top of the winning or money list. Once in a while you see a guy like Dustin Johnson who seems to have a better control over his path and face angle in his swing for his speed. But that's rare. In short it takes a lot more than clubhead speed to win out there.

 

And a larger sweet spot has nothing to do with giving the high speed players any real advantage with the driver. It can more with the irons, but not the driver.

 

 

Thank you again Tom.

On the Driver point I am happy to be wrong. That means that I literally don’t have to feel like I need to checkout new Driver heads every year to feel like I’m keeping up. Yours is the first actual learned opinion stating that that I’ve read.

 

How far back do you feel like this goes ? As in sweet spot size etc./year or do other parts effect the perceived sweet spot area ? As in launch angle spin etc ?

 

Lastly. What are your thoughts on smaller Driver heads in relation to 460. Why is a 460 head more forgiving overall ? Would you take into effect ability to square at impact into your fitting and forgiving assessment ?

 

Sorry if these are stupid questions. But I really wonder how much of this stuff is real and how much is placebo.

[radiman]

What is unfair about hitting the ball harder than anyone else while also hitting it straighter than 99.9999% of golfers in the world?

 

That bloody-minded comment right there is the essence of this complaint. How on earth is having both skill and talent supposed to be NOT an advantage. That's simply nonsense.

 

Why not say Jordan Spieth makes too many 20-foot putts so he ought to be forced to use an egg-shaped golf ball?

 

I agree completely. Elite althletic ability combined with tremendous feel and hand eye coordination is NOT an UNFAIR advantage. It's superior ability. Nobody wanted to put ankle weights on Michael Jordan because he had an UNFAIR ability to jump. He was just simply better than everyone else, the same way DJ is. How on Earth could anyone be in favor of excessively punishing the player of superior ability except those without it.

 

Well said. I kind of wonder what the age group is of each stance. I don't mean any offense by it. I started golfing in the late 90's. Just before Tiger-mania started. When he came on the scene, that was what I felt golf should be. Crushing drives and sticking approach shots.

 

I wonder if those who are lobbying for a rollback came from a previous era before tiger took the game by storm.

 

I'm 54 , fit, carry my own bag and have zero distance envy. Think Tiger at least for several years was probably best golfer to walk the planet.

 

I want meaning to imply that anyone had distance envy. Merely eluding to the difference in prevalent playing style between multiple generations. It seems to me that it took a while for a new generation of golfers to come in and dethrone tiger. The kids that grew up trying to emulate his playing style where distance was king. Not to downplay his amazing ball striking. He dominated the tour with it, and now the new crop of the world's best are as well. Some more so than others.

 

Then, on the other side of the coin, you have other folks that grew up watching the game being dominated by pure ball striking and creative shot making. They probably long to see the game back in the state that it was when they were growing up. The game may not be recognizable to what they were accustomed to in their youth. They can't relate to it and feel like they're not on the outside looking in.

 

Just my thoughts. I could be way off-base, and I'm not trying to insult anyone by assuming anyone's age. I just think golf has evolved just like every sport does.

[bladehunter]

What is unfair about hitting the ball harder than anyone else while also hitting it straighter than 99.9999% of golfers in the world?

 

That bloody-minded comment right there is the essence of this complaint. How on earth is having both skill and talent supposed to be NOT an advantage. That’s simply nonsense.

 

Why not say Jordan Spieth makes too many 20-foot putts so he ought to be forced to use an egg-shaped golf ball?

 

I agree completely. Elite althletic ability combined with tremendous feel and hand eye coordination is NOT an UNFAIR advantage. It's superior ability. Nobody wanted to put ankle weights on Michael Jordan because he had an UNFAIR ability to jump. He was just simply better than everyone else, the same way DJ is. How on Earth could anyone be in favor of excessively punishing the player of superior ability except those without it.

 

Well said. I kind of wonder what the age group is of each stance. I don't mean any offense by it. I started golfing in the late 90's. Just before Tiger-mania started. When he came on the scene, that was what I felt golf should be. Crushing drives and sticking approach shots.

 

I wonder if those who are lobbying for a rollback came from a previous era before tiger took the game by storm.

 

38. Started playing this game competitively in 2014 when I joined here. Didn’t touch a club from 1998-2014. Played a tad while working at a course in 96-98. But was once a week after work with guys. Not even keeping score. Although I’ve always watched the game. Where I grew up it was out of my reach. And took starting a business andyeas later before I felt like I could “ join”. Now of course I know better. But anyway. Was a shock to the system to see where equipment was when I came back. Instead of being boiled slowly like you guys. I was thrown straight into the bubbling pot of 45.5 inch drivers . Lol.

 

 

[radiman]

What is unfair about hitting the ball harder than anyone else while also hitting it straighter than 99.9999% of golfers in the world?

 

That bloody-minded comment right there is the essence of this complaint. How on earth is having both skill and talent supposed to be NOT an advantage. That's simply nonsense.

 

Why not say Jordan Spieth makes too many 20-foot putts so he ought to be forced to use an egg-shaped golf ball?

 

I agree completely. Elite althletic ability combined with tremendous feel and hand eye coordination is NOT an UNFAIR advantage. It's superior ability. Nobody wanted to put ankle weights on Michael Jordan because he had an UNFAIR ability to jump. He was just simply better than everyone else, the same way DJ is. How on Earth could anyone be in favor of excessively punishing the player of superior ability except those without it.

 

Well said. I kind of wonder what the age group is of each stance. I don't mean any offense by it. I started golfing in the late 90's. Just before Tiger-mania started. When he came on the scene, that was what I felt golf should be. Crushing drives and sticking approach shots.

 

I wonder if those who are lobbying for a rollback came from a previous era before tiger took the game by storm.

 

I don't think it's necessarily a question of era as it is a question of how one looks at it. You see, I think crushing drives and hitting wedges is very one dimensional. In fact, I'd even go so far as to call it childish. Sort of an inability to appreciate complexity and variety.

 

I'm a big fan of Tiger but the people who think distance is what made him great, probably think 4 Track recording is what made the Beatles great.

 

Either way, the game of golf will have to wrestle with these opposing view points and profits will ultimately dictate it's direction.

 

Oh, I am well aware that his distance wasn't the only stat he dominated in. I think that it was built up so much by the media of the time that it is what stuck out in teenage minds such as mine.

 

In regards to it being childish, that sounds like the opinion of someone who doesn't have the option of crushing their driver...

[radiman]

What is unfair about hitting the ball harder than anyone else while also hitting it straighter than 99.9999% of golfers in the world?

 

That bloody-minded comment right there is the essence of this complaint. How on earth is having both skill and talent supposed to be NOT an advantage. That’s simply nonsense.

 

Why not say Jordan Spieth makes too many 20-foot putts so he ought to be forced to use an egg-shaped golf ball?

 

I agree completely. Elite althletic ability combined with tremendous feel and hand eye coordination is NOT an UNFAIR advantage. It's superior ability. Nobody wanted to put ankle weights on Michael Jordan because he had an UNFAIR ability to jump. He was just simply better than everyone else, the same way DJ is. How on Earth could anyone be in favor of excessively punishing the player of superior ability except those without it.

 

Well said. I kind of wonder what the age group is of each stance. I don't mean any offense by it. I started golfing in the late 90's. Just before Tiger-mania started. When he came on the scene, that was what I felt golf should be. Crushing drives and sticking approach shots.

 

I wonder if those who are lobbying for a rollback came from a previous era before tiger took the game by storm.

 

38. Started playing this game competitively in 2014 when I joined here. Didn’t touch a club from 1998-2014. Played a tad while working at a course in 96-98. But was once a week after work with guys. Not even keeping score. Although I’ve always watched the game. Where I grew up it was out of my reach. And took starting a business andyeas later before I felt like I could “ join”. Now of course I know better. But anyway. Was a shock to the system to see where equipment was when I came back. Instead of being boiled slowly like you guys. I was thrown straight into the bubbling pot of 45.5 inch drivers . Lol.

 

I'll be honest, you're younger than I thought you'd be. Only have two years on me. Yeah, a jump from the heyday of the OG Big Bertha and 975D to what we have now, would be quite the change!

[bladehunter]

What is unfair about hitting the ball harder than anyone else while also hitting it straighter than 99.9999% of golfers in the world?

 

That bloody-minded comment right there is the essence of this complaint. How on earth is having both skill and talent supposed to be NOT an advantage. That’s simply nonsense.

 

Why not say Jordan Spieth makes too many 20-foot putts so he ought to be forced to use an egg-shaped golf ball?

 

I agree completely. Elite althletic ability combined with tremendous feel and hand eye coordination is NOT an UNFAIR advantage. It's superior ability. Nobody wanted to put ankle weights on Michael Jordan because he had an UNFAIR ability to jump. He was just simply better than everyone else, the same way DJ is. How on Earth could anyone be in favor of excessively punishing the player of superior ability except those without it.

 

Well said. I kind of wonder what the age group is of each stance. I don't mean any offense by it. I started golfing in the late 90's. Just before Tiger-mania started. When he came on the scene, that was what I felt golf should be. Crushing drives and sticking approach shots.

 

I wonder if those who are lobbying for a rollback came from a previous era before tiger took the game by storm.

 

38. Started playing this game competitively in 2014 when I joined here. Didn’t touch a club from 1998-2014. Played a tad while working at a course in 96-98. But was once a week after work with guys. Not even keeping score. Although I’ve always watched the game. Where I grew up it was out of my reach. And took starting a business andyeas later before I felt like I could “ join”. Now of course I know better. But anyway. Was a shock to the system to see where equipment was when I came back. Instead of being boiled slowly like you guys. I was thrown straight into the bubbling pot of 45.5 inch drivers . Lol.

 

I'll be honest, you're younger than I thought you'd be. Only have two years on me. Yeah, a jump from the heyday of the OG Big Bertha and 975D to what we have now, would be quite the change!

 

 

Yep. It was.

 

I’ll never forget a couple months after I started playing. I was hitting this tiny steel shafted powerbuilt Driver at the club I’m now a member of. A group behind me was waitin as it was backed up. And I had just roasted this thing up the middle of the opening par 5. Guy stops me while I walked off the tee and says “ what in the hell are you hitting “. I just replied. “ Driver “. As I didn’t know much better. Lookin back. It is the size of a driving iron. Literally. Is Stilll In my shed somewhere. Funny. That little club is so easy to hit. Yet full bore won’t go as far as today’s driving iron.

[Nard_S]

What is unfair about hitting the ball harder than anyone else while also hitting it straighter than 99.9999% of golfers in the world?

 

That bloody-minded comment right there is the essence of this complaint. How on earth is having both skill and talent supposed to be NOT an advantage. That's simply nonsense.

 

Why not say Jordan Spieth makes too many 20-foot putts so he ought to be forced to use an egg-shaped golf ball?

 

I agree completely. Elite althletic ability combined with tremendous feel and hand eye coordination is NOT an UNFAIR advantage. It's superior ability. Nobody wanted to put ankle weights on Michael Jordan because he had an UNFAIR ability to jump. He was just simply better than everyone else, the same way DJ is. How on Earth could anyone be in favor of excessively punishing the player of superior ability except those without it.

 

Well said. I kind of wonder what the age group is of each stance. I don't mean any offense by it. I started golfing in the late 90's. Just before Tiger-mania started. When he came on the scene, that was what I felt golf should be. Crushing drives and sticking approach shots.

 

I wonder if those who are lobbying for a rollback came from a previous era before tiger took the game by storm.

 

I'm 54 , fit, carry my own bag and have zero distance envy. Think Tiger at least for several years was probably best golfer to walk the planet.

 

I want meaning to imply that anyone had distance envy. Merely eluding to the difference in prevalent playing style between multiple generations. It seems to me that it took a while for a new generation of golfers to come in and dethrone tiger. The kids that grew up trying to emulate his playing style where distance was king. Not to downplay his amazing ball striking. He dominated the tour with it, and now the new crop of the world's best are as well. Some more so than others.

 

Then, on the other side of the coin, you have other folks that grew up watching the game being dominated by pure ball striking and creative shot making. They probably long to see the game back in the state that it was when they were growing up. The game may not be recognizable to what they were accustomed to in their youth. They can't relate to it and feel like they're not on the outside looking in.

 

Just my thoughts. I could be way off-base, and I'm not trying to insult anyone by assuming anyone's age. I just think golf has evolved just like every sport does.

 

I hear you, but evolution does not always equate to progress,that's gotten real lost in our tech passionate ways of the bigger world. It applies to sports too. When you replace, you also destroy. Point is good things get lost/destroyed and there's always an aspect of devolution along for the ride. Real progress is minimizing unintended consequences/devolution that change brings, keeping the good, while adding the better. Kind of rare that gets pulled off, so it is what it is I guess.

[dciccoritti]

What is unfair about hitting the ball harder than anyone else while also hitting it straighter than 99.9999% of golfers in the world?

 

That bloody-minded comment right there is the essence of this complaint. How on earth is having both skill and talent supposed to be NOT an advantage. That's simply nonsense.

 

Why not say Jordan Spieth makes too many 20-foot putts so he ought to be forced to use an egg-shaped golf ball?

 

I agree completely. Elite althletic ability combined with tremendous feel and hand eye coordination is NOT an UNFAIR advantage. It's superior ability. Nobody wanted to put ankle weights on Michael Jordan because he had an UNFAIR ability to jump. He was just simply better than everyone else, the same way DJ is. How on Earth could anyone be in favor of excessively punishing the player of superior ability except those without it.

 

Well said. I kind of wonder what the age group is of each stance. I don't mean any offense by it. I started golfing in the late 90's. Just before Tiger-mania started. When he came on the scene, that was what I felt golf should be. Crushing drives and sticking approach shots.

 

I wonder if those who are lobbying for a rollback came from a previous era before tiger took the game by storm.

 

I don't think it's necessarily a question of era as it is a question of how one looks at it. You see, I think crushing drives and hitting wedges is very one dimensional. In fact, I'd even go so far as to call it childish. Sort of an inability to appreciate complexity and variety.

 

I'm a big fan of Tiger but the people who think distance is what made him great, probably think 4 Track recording is what made the Beatles great.

 

Either way, the game of golf will have to wrestle with these opposing view points and profits will ultimately dictate it's direction.

 

Oh, I am well aware that his distance wasn't the only stat he dominated in. I think that it was built up so much by the media of the time that it is what stuck out in teenage minds such as mine.

 

In regards to it being childish, that sounds like the opinion of someone who doesn't have the option of crushing their driver...

 

I top out 285. I'm 48 and took up the game seriously about 5 years ago. However my point was not that crushing drives is childish but rather a game of crushed drivers and wedges is, IF that's all it is...or all it becomes.

 

I'm personally convinced that tomorrow's game will not properly balance course management, shot making, precision and strength/speed the way the game has in the past through a variety of equipment changes. Up until Tiger, we saw incredible displays of all facets of the game including crushed drives and crushed wedges from the rough. He was not one dimensional and my fear is that this game will end up becoming a long driving contest with equipment that is focused on not only making that possible, but easier.

[storm319]

Adding more initial spin back to the ball would shrink fairways and greens without effecting distance one inch. It's the easiest, cheapest and fairest way to engage in any "rollback" that might ever take place.

 

Do you know how many golf balls are sitting on retail shelves right now or how many get pulled out of ponds and resold every year? What do you expect to happen to those when all are deemed non-conforming? Any rollback will have a severe environmental impact and will likely have minimal impact to the players on tour that this would be intended to rein in. Most in favor of a rollback extremely underestimate how good the worlds elite really are.

[new2g0lf]

New2golf-

 

Just don't see any evidence to support that. The only evidence we have is the groove rule. And 99% have swapped out their soon to be illegal irons and wedges for conforming equipment. Even though it performs less

 

The groove rule was an annoyance, most mid - high handicappers didn't see a difference and felt new groove rule wedges were better than worn down old groove wedges.

 

When a guy goes for a driver fitting and notices he's losing 20 yards you're going to see push back.

[new2g0lf]

People blindly follow what the pro's do because they think ultimately it will improve their game

 

Is there any data at all to support that this is actually true? The best player in the world hits Taylormade, but the Epic outsold TM handily. I don't "blindly follow what the pro's do because I think it will improve my game". I don't think anyone else in this thread does either. None of my playing partners do.

 

You've said this a couple times as if its fact. What is your basis for this statement?

 

In the top 10 in the world, there is one cobra, three titleist, one srixon, three TM and one callaway (Stenson, at 9, who doesn't even play an Epic usually). Garcia doesn't count, he signed after the epic. Even if we move past the top 10, we see virtually zero Epic players.

 

We have to go all the way to Sweeden's Alex Norren at #17 (surely a household name in the United States) to find an Epic in the bag.

 

And yet, the Epic is by far the best selling driver in the USA. How do you square that up with your statement?

 

I don't have statistics but I spend a lot of time speaking with my clients and they tell me their customers are very biased towards what's new and what they see the pro's using. TM upset their customer base with the SLDR, JetSpeed and AeroBurner and also lost a lot of sales because people didn't realize that the M1 and M2 had new versions for 2017.

 

Epic got a big push at the store level, Callaway did a good job with pushing it and since people were put off by the TM offering they went with the Epic. We'll see what happens this year with TM having 2 new drivers with new names and the push of DJ behind them.

[Shilgy]

 

 

Then, on the other side of the coin, you have other folks that grew up watching the game being dominated by pure ball striking and creative shot making. They probably long to see the game back in the state that it was when they were growing up. The game may not be recognizable to what they were accustomed to in their youth. They can't relate to it and feel like they're not on the outside looking in.

What era were the best players not among the longest? Jones, Snead, Jack, Tiger? Nope×4.

The whole idea of the game being dominated by creative shot making is a myth.

[OrangeGravy]

Adding more initial spin back to the ball would shrink fairways and greens without effecting distance one inch. It's the easiest, cheapest and fairest way to engage in any "rollback" that might ever take place.

 

Do you know how many golf balls are sitting on retail shelves right now or how many get pulled out of ponds and resold every year? What do you expect to happen to those when all are deemed non-conforming? Any rollback will have a severe environmental impact and will likely have minimal impact to the players on tour that this would be intended to rein in. Most in favor of a rollback extremely underestimate how good the worlds elite really are.

 

Any argument that uses "non-conforming" isn't valid to the greater game of golf. What percentage of golfers even know what is or isn't conforming, let alone care? Those "non-conforming" balls would end up being used by all those golfers who like me don't care if it conforms or not. I'm for or against any of these ideas I just don't like invalid arguments. Any change of equipment (Not going to happen most likely) wouldn't happen overnight.

[OrangeGravy]

New2golf-

 

Just don't see any evidence to support that. The only evidence we have is the groove rule. And 99% have swapped out their soon to be illegal irons and wedges for conforming equipment. Even though it performs less

 

The groove rule was an annoyance, most mid - high handicappers didn't see a difference and felt new groove rule wedges were better than worn down old groove wedges.

 

When a guy goes for a driver fitting and notices he's losing 20 yards you're going to see push back.

 

What percentage of golfers do you think get fitted for driver or any clubs? Honest question, I think it's very small, but I don't know for sure.