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Mickelson hitting putt while ball was still moving?


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And this could be true too. But doesn't that also point to a rules issue more than phil issue ?

 

Welcome by the way!

 

 

No, no. It's a Phil issue. Phil knew exactly what he was doing.

 

20 years of pent-up anger and frustration of being a bridesmaid in winning the US Open.

 

He ran after that ball and made a scene out of it.

 

It's always about Phil, making it about Phil.

 

 

 

 

Play it where it lies NOT WHERE IT ROLLS, Phil.

 

 

We had this debate yesterday. Wondering where you were. Are you Phil , Tiger , or Bones ?

 

All in good fun I know you know.

 

 

I was with the Ferguson clan playing golf in the morning, then enjoying Father's Day watching the US OPEN in the afternoon.

 

Sorry to have missed the debate.

 

I suppose you could say I had my phil of 2018 US Open.

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And this could be true too. But doesn't that also point to a rules issue more than phil issue ?

 

Welcome by the way!

 

 

No, no. It's a Phil issue. Phil knew exactly what he was doing.

 

20 years of pent-up anger and frustration of being a bridesmaid in winning the US Open.

 

He ran after that ball and made a scene out of it.

 

It's always about Phil, making it about Phil.

 

 

 

 

Play it where it lies NOT WHERE IT ROLLS, Phil.

 

 

We had this debate yesterday. Wondering where you were. Are you Phil , Tiger , or Bones ?

 

All in good fun I know you know. ��

 

 

I was with the Ferguson clan playing golf in the morning, then enjoying Father's Day watching the US OPEN in the afternoon.

 

Sorry to have missed the debate.

 

I suppose you could say I had my phil of 2018 US Open.

 

Well played sir ! Maybe Amy? ?

 

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The USGA made a mistake and Phil should have been disqualified. Period. And his explanation was even worse in my opinion. Really lost a lot of respect for him after that move.

 

Agree. If he had just said 'I blew my top and it was just one of my poorer moments' most would have laughed it off. But to try and justify it as a rationale thing to do is just wrong.

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The USGA made a mistake and Phil should have been disqualified. Period. And his explanation was even worse in my opinion. Really lost a lot of respect for him after that move.

 

He prolly should have WD, the rules don't allow for DQ for this I don't think.

 

He is lucky NY loves him so much, I don't think he caught much flack from the fans. Anybody else would have been completely abused by the fans.

 

But, overall, in a 25+ year career on tour, I don't recall him ever pulling any stunts like this or being shady with the rules.

 

So, I guess he gets a mulligan.

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AND the argument of lower score doesn't add up. He had two options to score lower than what he did. He actually chose the gauranteeed higher score. This isn't a court of law. But you don't even have enough evidence to Bring charges. Much less get a conviction.

 

if his deflection goes into the hole, it's a 6 + 2 = 8 ... there's no guarantee he gets it up and in for an 8 from off the green (or wherever it would've ended up) ...

 

If he let the ball roll out and got it up and down from there, it would be a 7.

 

If he let the ball roll out, had an impossible shot, and just hit it to the middle or back of the green and 3 putted, he'd still make a 9.

 

It would be very hard for him to ever make worse than a 10 if he had let the ball go (he'd have to take 6+ strokes from wherever it ended up).

 

I don't see why people are thinking this is actually a viable strategy for lowering your score. There are only a small handful of courses and situations where taking a 2 stroke penalty might actually help you.

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AND the argument of lower score doesn't add up. He had two options to score lower than what he did. He actually chose the gauranteeed higher score. This isn't a court of law. But you don't even have enough evidence to Bring charges. Much less get a conviction.

 

if his deflection goes into the hole, it's a 6 + 2 = 8 ... there's no guarantee he gets it up and in for an 8 from off the green (or wherever it would've ended up) ...

 

If he let the ball roll out and got it up and in, it would be a 7.

 

If he let the ball roll out, had an impossible shot, and just hit it to the middle or back of the green and 3 putted, he'd still make a 9.

 

It would be very hard for him to ever make worse than a 10 if he had let the ball go (he'd have to take 6+ strokes from wherever it ended up).

 

I don't see why people are thinking this is actually a viable strategy for lowering your score. There are only a small handful of courses and situations were taking a 2 stroke penalty might actually help you.

 

Wasn't David Fay correct, when he said that he could simply have taken an unplayable? (Sorry, I cannot read the whole thread).

So, Phil could have let the ball roll off the green, then take an unplayable and then proceed with a one stroke penalty and play the next shot from where he played the orginal putt, which he had hit off the green.

Other players showed that it was possible to not putt it off the green from there, if you forgot completely about trying to hole it. He would have taken less than 10 that way almost certainly.

But the problem could be that the word "unplayable" is not part of Phil's vocabulary.

I see a gap. There definitely is a gap.

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Wish I could have been in the debate.

 

Simply put, I congratulate Phil for making USGA look like fools. They are fools. I absolutely see nothing wrong with what he did and if anything else I gained a little more respect for Phil.

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most bizarre thing i've seen watching professional golf... haven't read thru this entire thread but my take is he just snapped, plain and simple. then after he realized what he had done he spun it as "i'm the smartest guy in the room", "it was all by design".....basically FIGJAM. during the post game interviews you can see him trying to hide the embarrassment but his ego wouldn't let him admit fault and come clean. with that said, i can't blame the guy, he's only human and we all make mistakes. and yes, he's earned a few mulligans.

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Phil once again demonstrated he's a modern day golf hero. Just like he stepped in about the Ryder Cup issues his bold display on Saturday demonstrates the absolute frustration of having a professional tournament being turned into a clown show by the usga. If Mike Davis is going to set a course like a clown then it's not completely unreasonable for players to act like clowns.

 

Speaking of clowns, as much as it pains me to agree with Poulter about the usga and NYC fans, the man is absolutely right.

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Phil gives 0 fux about this right now, proof of his hands raised triumphant par today, all smiles.

 

The dude is a modern golf legend, he doesn't give an f if some lame british guy calls him an a$s on TV. He's Phil. Golf fans worship him.

 

 

He will lose fans over this plain and simple.

 

Nah. People who are griping about this are 1. Not phil fans 2. Not trying to understand the rule.

 

Yah. People aren't "melting" or "offended", and plenty of people who are golf fans/phil fans in general think it stinks ... they understand the rule (why do people keep going back to that? ... it's not the tax code) ... they just believe, rightfully so, that the rule wasn't written for this situation and should not be used by the usga to keep phil in the tournament ... he absolutely attempted to gain an advantage by making a lower score ... that's a dq if there ever was one ...

 

If you understand the rule. Then you must know that your issue is with that rule. Not phil. Had the rule said DQ hedhave been DQed. It says 2 stroke penalty. I agree the rule should be re written. But as is phil didn't break any rule that warrants a DQ. Just a 2 stroke penalty.

 

We keep going back to the rule because that's all there is to go back to. We don't just make up things and DQ someone based on " feelings ". Rule book exists for s reason. To go back to it to see how to proceed.

 

The rule has been in existence for quite some time with no one to my knowledge intentionally violating it except for John Daly. I agree the rule isn't explicit enough to cover all potential abuses of it but not many rules of golf are. The rules of golf provide for the instance where a ball is deflected by a fellow competitor in rules 19-1 and 1-2 but you don't see guys intentionally deflect a 30' putt that's about to go in the hole from a fellow competitor even though the rules specify the situation and penalty.

 

IMO, golf is supposed to be play with a certain amount of integrity and the rules were written in a manner that assumes that integrity is present. When a guy like Phil does what he did, he erodes the level of integrity from the game and encourages others to do the same. Again I'm a big Phil fan but I'm disappointed with how he handled this situation.

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And this could be true too. But doesn't that also point to a rules issue more than phil issue ?

 

Welcome by the way!

 

 

No, no. It's a Phil issue. Phil knew exactly what he was doing.

 

20 years of pent-up anger and frustration of being a bridesmaid in winning the US Open.

 

He ran after that ball and made a scene out of it.

 

It's always about Phil, making it about Phil.

 

 

 

 

Play it where it lies NOT WHERE IT ROLLS, Phil.

 

 

We had this debate yesterday. Wondering where you were. Are you Phil , Tiger , or Bones ?

 

All in good fun I know you know. ��

 

 

I was with the Ferguson clan playing golf in the morning, then enjoying Father's Day watching the US OPEN in the afternoon.

 

Sorry to have missed the debate.

 

I suppose you could say I had my phil of 2018 US Open.

 

Well played sir ! Maybe Amy?

 

 

Amy would have never endorsed him pulling out early.

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I don’t believe this, so I want to start with that:

 

But with people that feel he could have taken an unplayable, what if he felt like even if he putted that same shot there was no way of keeping it on the green? Like what if he thought, honestly, it’s either in the hole or off the green? Taking an unplayable might cause a higher score as opposed to saving strokes.

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I don't believe this, so I want to start with that:

 

But with people that feel he could have taken an unplayable, what if he felt like even if he putted that same shot there was no way of keeping it on the green? Like what if he thought, honestly, it's either in the hole or off the green? Taking an unplayable might cause a higher score as opposed to saving strokes.

 

 

if he took an unplayable on the 1st putt he could then move it to a better angle. you have to take relief right? ..

 

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The rule has been in existence for quite some time with no one to my knowledge intentionally violating it except for John Daly. I agree the rule isn't explicit enough to cover all potential abuses of it but not many rules of golf are. The rules of golf provide for the instance where a ball is deflected by a fellow competitor in rules 19-1 and 1-2 but you don't see guys intentionally deflect a 30' putt that's about to go in the hole from a fellow competitor even though the rules specify the situation and penalty.

 

IMO, golf is supposed to be play with a certain amount of integrity and the rules were written in a manner that assumes that integrity is present. When a guy like Phil does what he did, he erodes the level of integrity from the game and encourages others to do the same. Again I'm a big Phil fan but I'm disappointed with how he handled this situation.

 

Nah.... Have you ever been to a muni on a Saturday? Have you ever been at a private club where guys are sandbaggers and cheat their handicaps to make a buck? Phil did nothing wrong.

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AND the argument of lower score doesn't add up. He had two options to score lower than what he did. He actually chose the gauranteeed higher score. This isn't a court of law. But you don't even have enough evidence to Bring charges. Much less get a conviction.

 

if his deflection goes into the hole, it's a 6 + 2 = 8 ... there's no guarantee he gets it up and in for an 8 from off the green (or wherever it would've ended up) ...

 

If he let the ball roll out and got it up and in, it would be a 7.

 

If he let the ball roll out, had an impossible shot, and just hit it to the middle or back of the green and 3 putted, he'd still make a 9.

 

It would be very hard for him to ever make worse than a 10 if he had let the ball go (he'd have to take 6+ strokes from wherever it ended up).

 

I don't see why people are thinking this is actually a viable strategy for lowering your score. There are only a small handful of courses and situations were taking a 2 stroke penalty might actually help you.

 

Wasn't David Fay correct, when he said that he could simply have taken an unplayable? (Sorry, I cannot read the whole thread).

So, Phil could have let the ball roll off the green, then take an unplayable and then proceed with a one stroke penalty and play the next shot from where he played the orginal putt, which he had hit off the green.

Other players showed that it was possible to not putt it off the green from there, if you forgot completely about trying to hole it. He would have taken less than 10 that way almost certainly.

But the problem could be that the word "unplayable" is not part of Phil's vocabulary.

 

From my reading of the rule, yes. Phil could have taken an unplayable, 1 stroke penalty and the next shot from "as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played".

 

But would he have been accused of gaining an advantage and criticized since his ball would not be "truly" unplayable? Probably.

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I've heard the "unplayable lie" option in regards to this situation quite a bit; even Mike Davis mentioned it. Could you or someone please explain to me how one can take an unplayable lie if the ball is actually playable, which Phil's ball would have obviously been? I'm not a rules aficionado. Thanks

Hey Sheepdog!

My understanding is that whether a ball is playable or unplayable is solely at the discretion of the player at all times. That is, the golfer can decide at any time, in any situation on the course, that his ball is "unplayable" and then proceed under the relevant rule. He does not have to justify his decision to anyone - not even his wife!

 

That blows me away! I always that the ball would have to be deemed unplayable by a rules official. Can't believe players don't take advantage of this more, seeing as they do with most other rules (backstopping, free drop, etc.). Thanks for the explanation.

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also, to those of you giving Phil all this credit for making a statement against the USGA and sticking it to them.... Puhleez, give me a break! he didn't even know what he had done while he was walking off the green. he was just nervously and embarrassingly laughing and didn't even give an explanation to his playing competitor. if he was genuinely making a calculated statement against the USGA he would've acted much differently in my opinion and then he would've/should've DQ'd himself or WD'd. To take the 2-stroke penalty and keep playing is a soft as it gets. And then supposedly he calls Mike Davis to apologize and ask if he should WD... whatever.

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Wasn't David Fay correct, when he said that he could simply have taken an unplayable? (Sorry, I cannot read the whole thread).

So, Phil could have let the ball roll off the green, then take an unplayable and then proceed with a one stroke penalty and play the next shot from where he played the orginal putt, which he had hit off the green.

Other players showed that it was possible to not putt it off the green from there, if you forgot completely about trying to hole it. He would have taken less than 10 that way almost certainly.

But the problem could be that the word "unplayable" is not part of Phil's vocabulary.

 

From my reading of the rule, yes. Phil could have taken an unplayable, 1 stroke penalty and the next shot from "as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played".

 

But would he have been accused of gaining an advantage and criticized since his ball would not be "truly" unplayable? Probably.

 

Not probably, but certainly, because, hey, he's Phil, you know, FIGJAM and all.

But since you can declare an unplayable anytime you like, it would have been a lot easier to deflect the criticism.

And honestly, as much as I like Phil, his interview and his explanation made me cringe.

I see a gap. There definitely is a gap.

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The rule has been in existence for quite some time with no one to my knowledge intentionally violating it except for John Daly. I agree the rule isn't explicit enough to cover all potential abuses of it but not many rules of golf are. The rules of golf provide for the instance where a ball is deflected by a fellow competitor in rules 19-1 and 1-2 but you don't see guys intentionally deflect a 30' putt that's about to go in the hole from a fellow competitor even though the rules specify the situation and penalty.

 

IMO, golf is supposed to be play with a certain amount of integrity and the rules were written in a manner that assumes that integrity is present. When a guy like Phil does what he did, he erodes the level of integrity from the game and encourages others to do the same. Again I'm a big Phil fan but I'm disappointed with how he handled this situation.

 

Nah.... Have you ever been to a muni on a Saturday? Have you ever been at a private club where guys are sandbaggers and cheat their handicaps to make a buck? Phil did nothing wrong.

 

You can't compare weekend hacks at a muni or the 2% of actual sandbaggers in private clubs to the optics of what Phil did during a Major. A virtual Pandora's box has been opened where some golfers will feel empowered to use rules to their benefit that were not intended to be used in that way.

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This was out of character and will impact him going forward. A lesser talent maybe not so much but Phil is iconic and will be remembered for this putt as much as anything else he has ever done. Sad but true.

Nah... No negative impact except with a few zealots in sports media and WRX and haters looking for more ammo. But for the vast majority his stock is going up.

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Poor Phi

also, to those of you giving Phil all this credit for making a statement against the USGA and sticking it to them.... Puhleez, give me a break! he didn't even know what he had done while he was walking off the green. he was just nervously and embarrassingly laughing and didn't even give an explanation to his playing competitor. if he was genuinely making a calculated statement against the USGA he would've acted much differently in my opinion and then he would've/should've DQ'd himself or WD'd. To take the 2-stroke penalty and keep playing is a soft as it gets. And then supposedly he calls Mike Davis to apologize and ask if he should WD... whatever.

 

Phil like

 

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also, to those of you giving Phil all this credit for making a statement against the USGA and sticking it to them.... Puhleez, give me a break! he didn't even know what he had done while he was walking off the green. he was just nervously and embarrassingly laughing and didn't even give an explanation to his playing competitor. if he was genuinely making a calculated statement against the USGA he would've acted much differently in my opinion and then he would've/should've DQ'd himself or WD'd. To take the 2-stroke penalty and keep playing is a soft as it gets. And then supposedly he calls Mike Davis to apologize and ask if he should WD... whatever.

 

sure.. i agree this is the most likely scenario...BUT you cant have it both ways.. if it was a blowup that he then tried to coverup with a clever answer about the rules.. Thats a very far cry from cheater... and thats where the mob wants to go.. cant have both .. he either knew or didnt..

 

The rule has been in existence for quite some time with no one to my knowledge intentionally violating it except for John Daly. I agree the rule isn't explicit enough to cover all potential abuses of it but not many rules of golf are. The rules of golf provide for the instance where a ball is deflected by a fellow competitor in rules 19-1 and 1-2 but you don't see guys intentionally deflect a 30' putt that's about to go in the hole from a fellow competitor even though the rules specify the situation and penalty.

 

IMO, golf is supposed to be play with a certain amount of integrity and the rules were written in a manner that assumes that integrity is present. When a guy like Phil does what he did, he erodes the level of integrity from the game and encourages others to do the same. Again I'm a big Phil fan but I'm disappointed with how he handled this situation.

 

Nah.... Have you ever been to a muni on a Saturday? Have you ever been at a private club where guys are sandbaggers and cheat their handicaps to make a buck? Phil did nothing wrong.

 

You can't compare weekend hacks at a muni or the 2% of actual sandbaggers in private clubs to the optics of what Phil did during a Major. A virtual Pandora's box has been opened where some golfers will feel empowered to use rules to their benefit that were not intended to be used in that way.

 

sorry.. but baggers are closer to 40% if not more... ask around about ESC and see how many even know what it is... I know most dont.. I was one

 

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also, to those of you giving Phil all this credit for making a statement against the USGA and sticking it to them.... Puhleez, give me a break! he didn't even know what he had done while he was walking off the green. he was just nervously and embarrassingly laughing and didn't even give an explanation to his playing competitor. if he was genuinely making a calculated statement against the USGA he would've acted much differently in my opinion and then he would've/should've DQ'd himself or WD'd. To take the 2-stroke penalty and keep playing is a soft as it gets. And then supposedly he calls Mike Davis to apologize and ask if he should WD... whatever.

 

sure.. i agree this is the most likely scenario...BUT you cant have it both ways.. if it was a blowup that he then tried to coverup with a clever answer about the rules.. Thats a very far cry from cheater... and thats where the mob wants to go.. cant have both .. he either knew or didnt..

 

Oh I agree... and I'm not calling him a cheater one bit. He snapped, it blew up in his face and then he spun it like only FIGJAM can. I think the biggest thing he'll regret down the road is that he didn't just DQ himself. He put the USGA in a tough spot and of course they slinked away as they are trying to protect their image as well.

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also, to those of you giving Phil all this credit for making a statement against the USGA and sticking it to them.... Puhleez, give me a break! he didn't even know what he had done while he was walking off the green. he was just nervously and embarrassingly laughing and didn't even give an explanation to his playing competitor. if he was genuinely making a calculated statement against the USGA he would've acted much differently in my opinion and then he would've/should've DQ'd himself or WD'd. To take the 2-stroke penalty and keep playing is a soft as it gets. And then supposedly he calls Mike Davis to apologize and ask if he should WD... whatever.

 

sure.. i agree this is the most likely scenario...BUT you cant have it both ways.. if it was a blowup that he then tried to coverup with a clever answer about the rules.. Thats a very far cry from cheater... and thats where the mob wants to go.. cant have both .. he either knew or didnt..

 

The rule has been in existence for quite some time with no one to my knowledge intentionally violating it except for John Daly. I agree the rule isn't explicit enough to cover all potential abuses of it but not many rules of golf are. The rules of golf provide for the instance where a ball is deflected by a fellow competitor in rules 19-1 and 1-2 but you don't see guys intentionally deflect a 30' putt that's about to go in the hole from a fellow competitor even though the rules specify the situation and penalty.

 

IMO, golf is supposed to be play with a certain amount of integrity and the rules were written in a manner that assumes that integrity is present. When a guy like Phil does what he did, he erodes the level of integrity from the game and encourages others to do the same. Again I'm a big Phil fan but I'm disappointed with how he handled this situation.

 

Nah.... Have you ever been to a muni on a Saturday? Have you ever been at a private club where guys are sandbaggers and cheat their handicaps to make a buck? Phil did nothing wrong.

 

You can't compare weekend hacks at a muni or the 2% of actual sandbaggers in private clubs to the optics of what Phil did during a Major. A virtual Pandora's box has been opened where some golfers will feel empowered to use rules to their benefit that were not intended to be used in that way.

 

sorry.. but baggers are closer to 40% if not more... ask around about ESC and see how many even know what it is... I know most dont.. I was one

 

Phil chased down the ball and hit it, that was intentional and likely done to prevent a higher score as he knew the ball would roll down the hill and behind the trap. He likely forget he could take an unplayable lie if it did roll behind the trap as I've never seen someone do this from a putting green. The unplayable would would have been the least penal but somewhat sketchy given the circumstances. In all cases, he was deviating from the way golf is intended to be played and imo was cheating.

 

Our club is very active about promoting ESC and calling out golfers who are suspected of sandbagging. Most of the golfers in my private club aren't good enough to be sandbaggers, I'd say 90% are vanity cappers.

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just wait until next years Masters... Watch guys that hit it over 15 green, chip it back and as it rolls by the hole heading to the water hazard casually deflect it towards the hole. Don't think it could happen???... check out Graeme McDowells twitter feed. Some pros discussed it yesterday. Phil cheated and tried to use a rule to justify it, and the USGA gave him a pass. Rule 1-2

 

1-2. Exerting Influence on Movement of Ball or Altering Physical Conditions

 

A player must not (i) take an action with the intent to influence the movement of a ball in play or (ii) alter physical conditions with the intent of affecting the playing of a hole.

 

Exceptions:

 

1. An action expressly permitted or expressly prohibited by another Rule is subject to that other Rule, not Rule 1-2.

 

2. An action taken for the sole purpose of caring for the course is not a breach of Rule 1-2.

*Penalty for Breach of Rule 1-2:

Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.

*In the case of a serious breach of Rule 1-2, the Committee may impose a penalty of disqualification.

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I'm really amused at the second-guessers that second-guess the second-guessers regarding what Phil was thinking, or what he "coulda-shoulda" done at the 13th on Saturday, when his putt kept on rolling and rolling........

 

In golf, we players have the unique right to officiate our own play, and if we have a question, we have the privilege of asking our playing partners, opponents, and, in the case of Phil, asking the rules official accompanying his group, concerning what the Official Rules of Golf say should be done in our situation.

 

If we read more of the accounts of what happened, and then what happened next, and also what happened later, we will get a better picture of the situation, and not just shoot off our mouths electronically and revealingly, as so many have done above on this thread.

 

Yes, Phil did what Phil did, and then consulted with the nearby rules official concerning his resulting playing status. When assured that he could continue play, he completed his round, and then consulted again with no less than USGA CEO Mike Davis, asking again about his playing status, and even offering to WD.

 

When assured that the existing penalty imposed was sufficient, he completed the tournament. The truth is that what the USGA decides concerning penalties imposed or infractions judged, is final. They had access to all the facts of the situation, and then made their decision with all the facts in mind and on the table.

 

I am not a big fan of all the USGA has done with or to the game in the past 10 years or so. But the fact is that what they decided in this case is final.

 

What has transpired since then has caused the second-guessers to have a field day. All the way up and down the spectrum, from the least-knowledgeable of self-appointed "golf rules experts," to the "talkers" that sit behind the network tables, there has been a huge quantity of speculation and emotional out-gushing for all of us to see. There are multitudes of brash statements and self-righteous proclamations of what Phil was or was not thinking in that moment, and what his actions revealed about his character, his intelligence, his Rules knowledge, and about what he had eaten for breakfast, etc., ad nauseum...... LOL!!!

 

My response to all this is to turn off the "talkers," and to slightly smile at all the self-appointed ones as they reveal their suppositions and unfounded biases about the true nature of this situation, for all the virtual world to see. The reality is that golf is what golf is. We may not agree with their decision in this particular situation, but we must accept that the USGA's decision in this situation is final.

 

We would all do well to conserve our energy by looking at this incident in our collective rear-view mirrors, and then applying our focus and efforts in a disciplined way to the back of our USGA-approved golf ball at the next tee....!!!

NIKE Vapor Fly PRO set at 8.5* + neut w UST Mamiya Elements Chrome 7F5T 7 X-Flex
CALLAWAY TourX 13* w/GD Purple Ice 75FW-TX
TaylorMade Rescue TP 17 Degree w DG X100 
3-PW COBRA Fly-Z Pro w DG S300

COBRA S3 Pro MB GW w DG Tour Concept S300
SCOR 4161 56 Degree Sand Wedge w DG Tour Concept S300
TaylorMade Spider Tour ARC Red Putter

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