USGA PR team to Justin Thomas: "We need to talk"

[davep043]

Maybe that condescending tweet by the USGA will provide the impetus for the tour to make their own rules. It can't be that hard since most of the groundwork is already laid and I'm sure they'd like to have more control over the situation.

 

Personally, I'm less interested in the rules for pros and would really like to see a simpler and more common sense set of rules for amateurs. For instance, when taking a penalty stroke, just allow a player to place it. The "randomness" of a drop adds no enjoyment to the game when you're already incurring a penalty. In fact, I think all drops should be eliminated for the sake of simplicity.

 

Also, OB should be played the same way as a lateral hazard and you should be able to place (with a one stroke penalty) anywhere on the line of entry. Lining up the flag stick with the point of entry seldom provides a workable option to get back into the hole and is overly penal. You're already incurring a penalty. Why pour salt in the wound of someone incurring a penalty with an unlucky drop, impossible options for drop / placement areas, or a stroke-and-distance penalty for OB? The USGA "solution" of providing for a local rule that allows for a drop in the fairway with a two stroke penalty for a ball hit OB is a joke. Any single digit facing a two stroke penalty might as well just pick up and go to the next tee. A two stroke penalty just flushes that hole down the toilet. Frankly, I'd rather re-tee, which would take more time, but at least allow me to hit a great drive and improve my position.

 

The USGA, protecting the integrity of the game with two stroke penalties. Because sometimes one stroke just isn't enough, apparently.

Wow, so many things that have already been discussed here. For placing after a penalty, you "paid" your penalty to move your ball from whatever terrible place it was in to a better place. You didn't "pay" enough to guarantee a perfect lie in that better place, that will cost extra. If you "accidentally" place instead of dropping, and play the ball, you get an additional two-stroke penalty. Seems fair.

 

Stroke and distance for OB or lost ball? Let me understand, if you hit your ball, find it in a nasty spot, you can "pay" one stroke and move it to a better spot. But if you have no idea where it is, or if you hit it off of the 100+ acres that are dedicated to your use, you want the same privilege, drop one with a single stroke penalty. Doesn't seem fair to me.

 

One of the guiding principles behind the rules is that the penalty should not be less than the advantage a player could derive for violating the rule. If a player could shave a full stroke off by violating a rule, make the penalty two strokes. This is why the penalty for placing instead of dropping is two strokes. You could reasonably expect to gain as much as a full stroke by doing the wrong thing. That's what is called a deterrent.

 

If you're interested in actually understanding a little more about the rules, I suggest you read this little 80-page book:

https://www.usgapubl...ant=25702107654

God forbid that a weekend hack be able eke out a few bogeys after blowing it into the junk all day. We need to be attracting and welcoming golfers, not driving them away with overly complex and penal rules.

Why does a player hitting into the junk all day DESERVE to make a few bogeys?

The rules got less complex, and generally less penal. Weekend hacks tend to play by whatever rules they choose anyway, the Rules of Golf are for people who want to play real golf. I'll welcome new golfers all day, I'll help them learn the game, and learn the etiquette, and help them learn the rules along the way. But I don't believe the rules are overly penal or complex. Again, spend the $1.50 and get that book I referenced. Maybe you'll understand better why the rules are what they are.

[braincramp52]

The big question here is, how in the hell did we survive without Twitter all these years?

[Ignatius Reilly]

The new rules are simple, BUT,

The PGA Tour players don't like them, AND,

The PGA Tour will always be more loyal to the players than it will to the USGA, AND,

The USGA doesn't appear to recognize this.

 

They are jointly written and administered by the R&A the governing body of golf worldwide except in the United States and Mexico, which are the responsibility of the USGA.

 

There are about 60 million golfers in the world. Not sure how many Tour Pro golfers there are. Maybe..... 10k? Certainly less than 1/10 of 1% of all golfers. So they aren't the main "clients" of the rules bodies.

 

The Tour isn't responsible to anyone other than its players. So of course the players are more loyal to it. It's the organization that gets them paid and makes them millionaires.

 

Not sure how or why the USGA would "recognize this".

 

I also think that if you were to poll the pros on each and every new/changed rule, you'd find they like more of them than they dislike.

[CasualLie]

Pretty reasonable take here by Michael Bamberger. Says there's plenty of blame to go around.

 

https://www.golf.com...s-plenty-blame/

 

Reasonable? It's garbage. What does his examples have to do with the issues over how to drop the ball? Jumping on Tiger, DJ, and Lexi...jumping on various commentators, network TV, websites and magazines but somehow exempting himself. And to top if off, he says Adam Schenk is a shining example and uses a handpicked quote?!?! Horrid reporting. Adam admitted he was upset over it and even commented by trying to throw those "anchoring" the putter under the bus. Yes, what a shining example. Not faulting Schenk, but Bamberger is garbage and needs to shut up...he's part of the problem.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

The new rules are simple, BUT,

The PGA Tour players don't like them, AND,

The PGA Tour will always be more loyal to the players than it will to the USGA, AND,

The USGA doesn't appear to recognize this.

 

They are jointly written and administered by the R&A the governing body of golf worldwide except in the United States and Mexico, which are the responsibility of the USGA.

 

There are about 60 million golfers in the world. Not sure how many Tour Pro golfers there are. Maybe..... 10k? Certainly less than 1/10 of 1% of all golfers. So they aren't the main "clients" of the rules bodies.

 

The Tour isn't responsible to anyone other than its players. So of course the players are more loyal to it. It's the organization that gets them paid and makes them millionaires.

 

Not sure how or why the USGA would "recognize this".

 

I also think that if you were to poll the pros on each and every new/changed rule, you'd find they like more of them than they dislike.

 

I said the PGA Tour is more loyal to the players than it is to the USGA. Obviously, the players are as well to the PGAT.

 

The USGA should recognize this, or at least act like it does, because if enough players hate something the USGA does, the PGAT may just step in. If that happens, it very well could trickle down to everyday local golfers in the US who want to play by the same rules as the guys on TV. If courses have "all play governed by PGA Tour rules", it would not be good for the USGA from a rules standpoint.

 

At present, the USGA acts as if it is in an invincible position as the only body that could ever write/administer golf rules in the US. That's simply not the case, and the USGA could find that out soon on it's current trajectory with PGA Tour players.

[B_of_H]

The USGA, IMO, has lost its collective mind. This is a bad look for them no matter what. whomever decided to try the social media/public route on this one was trying WAY too hard to be 'cool/modern etc...' and didn't think it through. just like the flagstick rule change they are making things worse by trying to be proactive about a problem. To be fair though i've not been a fan of the USGA since they let technology take over the game 20+ years ago. I love hitting my 2 iron 270 but I think the game was just as fun when it went 240.

[BB28403]

The big question here is, how in the hell did we survive without Twitter all these years?

 

I’ve been calling people that for years

[BB28403]

The new rules are simple, BUT,

The PGA Tour players don't like them, AND,

The PGA Tour will always be more loyal to the players than it will to the USGA, AND,

The USGA doesn't appear to recognize this.

 

They are jointly written and administered by the R&A the governing body of golf worldwide except in the United States and Mexico, which are the responsibility of the USGA.

 

There are about 60 million golfers in the world. Not sure how many Tour Pro golfers there are. Maybe..... 10k? Certainly less than 1/10 of 1% of all golfers. So they aren't the main "clients" of the rules bodies.

 

The Tour isn't responsible to anyone other than its players. So of course the players are more loyal to it. It's the organization that gets them paid and makes them millionaires.

 

Not sure how or why the USGA would "recognize this".

 

I also think that if you were to poll the pros on each and every new/changed rule, you'd find they like more of them than they dislike.

 

I said the PGA Tour is more loyal to the players than it is to the USGA. Obviously, the players are as well to the PGAT.

 

The USGA should recognize this, or at least act like it does, because if enough players hate something the USGA does, the PGAT may just step in. If that happens, it very well could trickle down to everyday local golfers in the US who want to play by the same rules as the guys on TV. If courses have "all play governed by PGA Tour rules", it would not be good for the USGA from a rules standpoint.

 

At present, the USGA acts as if it is in an invincible position as the only body that could ever write/administer golf rules in the US. That's simply not the case, and the USGA could find that out soon on it's current trajectory with PGA Tour players.

 

Oh yeah? What are they gonna do about it?

 

Haha

 

They will look like spoiled brats and have no validity if they do what they want.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

The new rules are simple, BUT,

The PGA Tour players don't like them, AND,

The PGA Tour will always be more loyal to the players than it will to the USGA, AND,

The USGA doesn't appear to recognize this.

 

They are jointly written and administered by the R&A the governing body of golf worldwide except in the United States and Mexico, which are the responsibility of the USGA.

 

There are about 60 million golfers in the world. Not sure how many Tour Pro golfers there are. Maybe..... 10k? Certainly less than 1/10 of 1% of all golfers. So they aren't the main "clients" of the rules bodies.

 

The Tour isn't responsible to anyone other than its players. So of course the players are more loyal to it. It's the organization that gets them paid and makes them millionaires.

 

Not sure how or why the USGA would "recognize this".

 

I also think that if you were to poll the pros on each and every new/changed rule, you'd find they like more of them than they dislike.

 

I said the PGA Tour is more loyal to the players than it is to the USGA. Obviously, the players are as well to the PGAT.

 

The USGA should recognize this, or at least act like it does, because if enough players hate something the USGA does, the PGAT may just step in. If that happens, it very well could trickle down to everyday local golfers in the US who want to play by the same rules as the guys on TV. If courses have "all play governed by PGA Tour rules", it would not be good for the USGA from a rules standpoint.

 

At present, the USGA acts as if it is in an invincible position as the only body that could ever write/administer golf rules in the US. That's simply not the case, and the USGA could find that out soon on it's current trajectory with PGA Tour players.

 

Oh yeah? What are they gonna do about it?

 

Haha

 

They will look like spoiled brats and have no validity if they do what they want.

 

The players? They will do nothing. But if they complain enough, the PGA Tour (you know, the organization that has the big purses and makes millions from and for the players, and has had a pretty meteoric rise since the mid-1990s) might just decide to make its own rules for its own players like every other major professional sports league. You know, to keep the money makers happy and adapt to the fact that the tour has risen so rapidly so quickly in terms of overall popularity in the sports world and revenue potential. The archaic "this is how it's always been" tends to fall by the wayside pretty quickly when billions are involved. This would be bad for the USGA.

 

Now, if you think the USGA would be happy if it became golf's version of the AAU, then we won't see eye to eye.

[Shilgy]

Yea I get that Dave -^. I meant more of an internal memo threatening a rule change or fines or something if the optic didn't go away. Let's be fair. That's the issue anyway. Caddies blocking tv cameras before a shot.

 

The rule wasn't changed because ams using a caddie has help lining it up. It's for the TV camera

OMG, can you imagine the twitterstorm?? Lexi texting "The USGA threatened us, and we're following the rules!" Because we know it would be blamed on the USGA, not their own tour.

As for the reason, I think part of it was as you say, part of it was legitimate objections to a player getting help lining up, part perhaps due to a growing issue with the lining up at the junior levels. There may have been more, I don't know.

 

True I suppose. Just unfortunate that the examples are being made of the ones who not once have had an issue with this , before the rule change ( I've yet to find a video of it and I've searched ) and the ones who did it every single shot have ran away and blended into the crowd like robbers who are now just pedestrians in a large city.

You and I will disagree here. Its not "examples being made", its enforcing the rule. The players who have broken the current rule have been penalized. You don't get a pass on the new rule because you never broke the old rule. Most players, on all tours, have managed to avoid breaking the rule, even those for whom it required the biggest change in habits. The women who used the caddie for alignment weren't "robbers", they were playing within the rules of the time, and they are apparently playing with the new rules.

 

Its like changing a speed limit. They put up signs 2 years in advance, telling you that the speed limit will change. They ask for comments on the change. They put up new signs after all the review, and tell you exactly what the change will be, and when it will take place (9 months away). When the speed limit finally changes, they put up the signs, and if you don't slow down, you get a ticket. Its not making an example, its enforcing the rule.

 

No. I don’t disagree. By the rule I agree. But agreeing with that leads me to the only logical conclusion (for me) is that the rule must be looked at again. Just like an artificially low speed limit. If all it’s catching is people doing 40 in a 35 and not people doing 55 in a now 35 ( the original gripe ) then how do you claim “ safety “. When most are doing 40 now which is 5 under the old listed ( “safe” speed limit. At that point you’re just ticketing your neighbors for going slow. Which leads to not being re-elected sheriff or chief. Lol.

 

I don’t know the answer. But I do know that it doesn’t seem to work as is.

 

I wonder. Why can’t some rules be a judgment call ? Why not say “ caddies don’t line up your players. Get caught DQ. “ And enforce it. Then be sure when you bring the hammer down. Would be a rare call on any tour.

I have asked a few times to no avail... So I'll try again. If these men's caddies are not helping line up wth are they doing behind the player at that time? Schenk's excuse was bs. He claimed the caddie was there to help him pick a spot to land the ball....ie helping him line up. It's laughable really to defend that as not breaking the rule.

 

Who cares how many times the caddie helped line up a player in 2018 and prior? It was legal behavior then. Why all this angst about how it was designed to stop the ladies? Because they absolutely did stop the behavior some seemed to hate so much. But now the same guys are defending the men for doing the same when it is no longer legal.

Makes absolutely no sense at all. Meaning the behavior or the defense of it.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Is there an explanation for why caddies can't assist with lining up?

 

Also anyone have some insight on the process and used to draft the new rules? Were there any PGA tour players, past or present, assisting or formally consulted in the rewrite?

[raynorfan1]

At present, the USGA acts as if it is in an invincible position as the only body that could ever write/administer golf rules in the US. That's simply not the case, and the USGA could find that out soon on it's current trajectory with PGA Tour players.

 

It simply is the case. The USGA (together with the R&A) control the four most significant tournaments of the year.

 

They own the Opens. The Masters and PGAA would never stray from the USGA/R&A rules...

 

So as long as the governing bodies de facto rule the biggest events, they run the show.

 

Is there an explanation for why caddies can't assist with lining up?

 

Also anyone have some insight on the process and used to draft the new rules? Were there any PGA tour players, past or present, assisting or formally consulted in the rewrite?

 

Every single USGA member was asked to provide input on the re-write. I presume that PGA Tour players were not excluded from that group. Nick Price is on the Executive Committee, so I would presume he also gave input.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

At present, the USGA acts as if it is in an invincible position as the only body that could ever write/administer golf rules in the US. That's simply not the case, and the USGA could find that out soon on it's current trajectory with PGA Tour players.

 

It simply is the case. The USGA (together with the R&A) control the four most significant tournaments of the year.

 

They own the Opens. The Masters and PGAA would never stray from the USGA/R&A rules...

 

So as long as the governing bodies de facto rule the biggest events, they run the show.

 

 

Could ever v. currently does.

[NPVWhiz]

The USGA, IMO, has lost its collective mind. This is a bad look for them no matter what. whomever decided to try the social media/public route on this one was trying WAY too hard to be 'cool/modern etc...' and didn't think it through. just like the flagstick rule change they are making things worse by trying to be proactive about a problem. To be fair though i've not been a fan of the USGA since they let technology take over the game 20+ years ago. I love hitting my 2 iron 270 but I think the game was just as fun when it went 240.

 

Enjoy watching the 92 Masters on YT and wait for the part where Ray Floyd, at 48 or 49, swats a drive in the heat of the back nine that the announcers state was the longest of the day on the hole but for Big John Daly. With a tiny headed metal wood. And then watch Couples blast one down the pipe with a beautiful old persimmon head. There was nothing wrong with the game in 1992. Not a thing. The USGA abdicated its stewardship role for the much more palatable and comfortable existence as lackey for the golf-industrial complex. The problem with the USGA is a corporate governance problem in the most fundamental sense of the term.

[raynorfan1]

At present, the USGA acts as if it is in an invincible position as the only body that could ever write/administer golf rules in the US. That's simply not the case, and the USGA could find that out soon on it's current trajectory with PGA Tour players.

 

It simply is the case. The USGA (together with the R&A) control the four most significant tournaments of the year.

 

They own the Opens. The Masters and PGAA would never stray from the USGA/R&A rules...

 

So as long as the governing bodies de facto rule the biggest events, they run the show.

 

 

Could ever v. currently does.

 

Anything is possible.

 

I suppose technically the Royal and Ancient Golf Club gave up its seat at the table not that long ago.

 

But it's hard to see a path where:

 

(1) some other group takes over the rules; and;

(2) either the USGA/R&A adopt some other group's rules for their events, or the Opens, Masters, and PGAA Championship are replaced by some other set of "major" tournaments.

 

Obviously the latter has historical precedent, with events like the Ams / Western Open declining in stature.

[ThinkingPlus]

True I suppose. Just unfortunate that the examples are being made of the ones who not once have had an issue with this , before the rule change ( I've yet to find a video of it and I've searched ) and the ones who did it every single shot have ran away and blended into the crowd like robbers who are now just pedestrians in a large city.

You and I will disagree here. Its not "examples being made", its enforcing the rule. The players who have broken the current rule have been penalized. You don't get a pass on the new rule because you never broke the old rule. Most players, on all tours, have managed to avoid breaking the rule, even those for whom it required the biggest change in habits. The women who used the caddie for alignment weren't "robbers", they were playing within the rules of the time, and they are apparently playing with the new rules.

 

Its like changing a speed limit. They put up signs 2 years in advance, telling you that the speed limit will change. They ask for comments on the change. They put up new signs after all the review, and tell you exactly what the change will be, and when it will take place (9 months away). When the speed limit finally changes, they put up the signs, and if you don't slow down, you get a ticket. Its not making an example, its enforcing the rule.

 

No. I don't disagree. By the rule I agree. But agreeing with that leads me to the only logical conclusion (for me) is that the rule must be looked at again. Just like an artificially low speed limit. If all it's catching is people doing 40 in a 35 and not people doing 55 in a now 35 ( the original gripe ) then how do you claim " safety ". When most are doing 40 now which is 5 under the old listed ( "safe" speed limit. At that point you're just ticketing your neighbors for going slow. Which leads to not being re-elected sheriff or chief. Lol.

 

I don't know the answer. But I do know that it doesn't seem to work as is.

 

I wonder. Why can't some rules be a judgment call ? Why not say " caddies don't line up your players. Get caught DQ. " And enforce it. Then be sure when you bring the hammer down. Would be a rare call on any tour.

I have asked a few times to no avail... So I'll try again. If these men's caddies are not helping line up wth are they doing behind the player at that time? Schenk's excuse was bs. He claimed the caddie was there to help him pick a spot to land the ball....ie helping him line up. It's laughable really to defend that as not breaking the rule.

 

Who cares how many times the caddie helped line up a player in 2018 and prior? It was legal behavior then. Why all this angst about how it was designed to stop the ladies? Because they absolutely did stop the behavior some seemed to hate so much. But now the same guys are defending the men for doing the same when it is no longer legal.

Makes absolutely no sense at all. Meaning the behavior or the defense of it.

Actually picking a spot to land the ball on the green or fringe is not helping align the player. It is basically like helping read a putt or pick a target behind the green to aim an approach shot. The caddie wasn't aligning his feet in the bunker or the clubface. Also since it is a bunker shot, the direction of the shot is driven much more by swing path and clubface than stance making a stance dependent rule questionable in application. The rule was broken as written, but not broken in intent. Any rule that is generating this many false positives is poorly written.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

At present, the USGA acts as if it is in an invincible position as the only body that could ever write/administer golf rules in the US. That's simply not the case, and the USGA could find that out soon on it's current trajectory with PGA Tour players.

 

It simply is the case. The USGA (together with the R&A) control the four most significant tournaments of the year.

 

They own the Opens. The Masters and PGAA would never stray from the USGA/R&A rules...

 

So as long as the governing bodies de facto rule the biggest events, they run the show.

 

Is there an explanation for why caddies can't assist with lining up?

 

Also anyone have some insight on the process and used to draft the new rules? Were there any PGA tour players, past or present, assisting or formally consulted in the rewrite?

 

Every single USGA member was asked to provide input on the re-write. I presume that PGA Tour players were not excluded from that group. Nick Price is on the Executive Committee, so I would presume he also gave input.

 

Thanks-- I'm familiar with the fact that they asked members for input and I wonder how much it weighed on the development of the initial draft and subsequent drafts and final version? Thanks for the info about Nick-- but unless he served on the core committee (I assume they had one) it seems unless they had a Tour Pro on the core committee that it would be a large gap.

[bladehunter]

The big question here is, how in the hell did we survive without Twitter all these years?

 

Better question is. How many more years will we survive with it ? Human evolution started down the backside of the slope around 1999-2000. My opinion. the best of a lot of things happened around then. Then the internet became ruler of all and it’s all slid down. But I digress. Lol.

[bladehunter]

True I suppose. Just unfortunate that the examples are being made of the ones who not once have had an issue with this , before the rule change ( I've yet to find a video of it and I've searched ) and the ones who did it every single shot have ran away and blended into the crowd like robbers who are now just pedestrians in a large city.

You and I will disagree here. Its not "examples being made", its enforcing the rule. The players who have broken the current rule have been penalized. You don't get a pass on the new rule because you never broke the old rule. Most players, on all tours, have managed to avoid breaking the rule, even those for whom it required the biggest change in habits. The women who used the caddie for alignment weren't "robbers", they were playing within the rules of the time, and they are apparently playing with the new rules.

 

Its like changing a speed limit. They put up signs 2 years in advance, telling you that the speed limit will change. They ask for comments on the change. They put up new signs after all the review, and tell you exactly what the change will be, and when it will take place (9 months away). When the speed limit finally changes, they put up the signs, and if you don't slow down, you get a ticket. Its not making an example, its enforcing the rule.

 

No. I don't disagree. By the rule I agree. But agreeing with that leads me to the only logical conclusion (for me) is that the rule must be looked at again. Just like an artificially low speed limit. If all it's catching is people doing 40 in a 35 and not people doing 55 in a now 35 ( the original gripe ) then how do you claim " safety ". When most are doing 40 now which is 5 under the old listed ( "safe" speed limit. At that point you're just ticketing your neighbors for going slow. Which leads to not being re-elected sheriff or chief. Lol.

 

I don't know the answer. But I do know that it doesn't seem to work as is.

 

I wonder. Why can't some rules be a judgment call ? Why not say " caddies don't line up your players. Get caught DQ. " And enforce it. Then be sure when you bring the hammer down. Would be a rare call on any tour.

I have asked a few times to no avail... So I'll try again. If these men's caddies are not helping line up wth are they doing behind the player at that time? Schenk's excuse was bs. He claimed the caddie was there to help him pick a spot to land the ball....ie helping him line up. It's laughable really to defend that as not breaking the rule.

 

Who cares how many times the caddie helped line up a player in 2018 and prior? It was legal behavior then. Why all this angst about how it was designed to stop the ladies? Because they absolutely did stop the behavior some seemed to hate so much. But now the same guys are defending the men for doing the same when it is no longer legal.

Makes absolutely no sense at all. Meaning the behavior or the defense of it.

Actually picking a spot to land the ball on the green or fringe is not helping align the player. It is basically like helping read a putt or pick a target behind the green to aim an approach shot. The caddie wasn't aligning his feet in the bunker or the clubface. Also since it is a bunker shot, the direction of the shot is driven much more by swing path and clubface than stance making a stance dependent rule questionable in application. The rule was broken as written, but not broken in intent. Any rule that is generating this many false positives is poorly written.

 

Yes. This is exactly my argument. There’s a huge difference between helping pick a target and the physical lining up the rule intends to stop.

 

I know you think ( shilgy) I’m picking on the ladies. I’m not. I’m just pointing out the difference. They were havin gcaddies actually align their bodies to the target for a shot. I’ve yet to see an example of anyone on the men’s tours doing that. Ever. And bravo for the ladies. They are actually smarter to take advantage of the rule and not have their egos cause they to not use that advanatage. But it’s that advantage ( or perceived one ) that caused the rule to change.

[raynorfan1]

Thanks-- I'm familiar with the fact that they asked members for input and I wonder how much it weighed on the development of the initial draft and subsequent drafts and final version? Thanks for the info about Nick-- but unless he served on the core committee (I assume they had one) it seems unless they had a Tour Pro on the core committee that it would be a large gap.

 

I'm not sure who was on the respective USGA and R&A Committees.

 

Why should they have a tour pro per se? They're making the rules for everybody not just the 0.0001% that play on tour. Sure, everybody's input is important.

 

I suspect that not many tour pros have all that much interest in the work of refining the rules; they just like to complain when the outcome isn't as they wanted...

[poppman2142]

I don’t know why these tour players and their caddies wouldn’t go to a rules seminar for a day and actually learn about the new rules. They spend hours practicing, hitting balls, working out, etc., but it seems the rules are just an afterthought, something they picked up along the way. I attended a rules seminar where Annika Sörenstam also attended, she basically said that she needed to know the rules inside out as it was also a part of getting better.

[davep043]

Is there an explanation for why caddies can't assist with lining up?

 

Also anyone have some insight on the process and used to draft the new rules? Were there any PGA tour players, past or present, assisting or formally consulted in the rewrite?

From this publication:

http://www.usga.org/...olf for 2019 (1).pdf

Although a player may get advice from a caddie on the shot to be played, the line of play and similar matters, the ability to line up one’s feet and body accurately to a target line is a fundamental skill of the game for which the player alone should be responsible. o

Allowing a caddie to stand behind a player taking a stance so as to direct the player how to line up undermines the player’s need to use his or her own alignment skills and judgment.

 

I can't find the reference, but I remember statements that all of the major professional tours had people involved with the revision of the rules. I don't know the timing of extent or these contributions, but if I find the quotes I'll post them.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

At present, the USGA acts as if it is in an invincible position as the only body that could ever write/administer golf rules in the US. That's simply not the case, and the USGA could find that out soon on it's current trajectory with PGA Tour players.

 

It simply is the case. The USGA (together with the R&A) control the four most significant tournaments of the year.

 

They own the Opens. The Masters and PGAA would never stray from the USGA/R&A rules...

 

So as long as the governing bodies de facto rule the biggest events, they run the show.

 

 

Could ever v. currently does.

 

Anything is possible.

 

I suppose technically the Royal and Ancient Golf Club gave up its seat at the table not that long ago.

 

But it's hard to see a path where:

 

(1) some other group takes over the rules; and;

(2) either the USGA/R&A adopt some other group's rules for their events, or the Opens, Masters, and PGAA Championship are replaced by some other set of "major" tournaments.

 

Obviously the latter has historical precedent, with events like the Ams / Western Open declining in stature.

 

A set of PGA Tour Rules wouldn't be a group "taking over the rules", it would be a professional sports league writing and administering the rules under which its competitions are played. Just like the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, etc. Agree that the Opens wouldn't adopt them. Unsure about the PGA Championship. Masters? Likely not, but who knows? I guess it would depend on what the differences would be.

 

My main point is: The USGA wouldn't be excited if PGA Tour had its own rules. If the USGA was smart, it wouldn't try to be witty and cute in tweeting with players, no matter how wrong the player is. "What are you gonna do about it? We've always made the rules" is a dangerous position to take.

[HitEmTrue]

The players? They will do nothing. But if they complain enough, the PGA Tour (you know, the organization that has the big purses and makes millions from and for the players, and has had a pretty meteoric rise since the mid-1990s) might just decide to make its own rules for its own players like every other major professional sports league. You know, to keep the money makers happy and adapt to the fact that the tour has risen so rapidly so quickly in terms of overall popularity in the sports world and revenue potential. The archaic "this is how it's always been" tends to fall by the wayside pretty quickly when billions are involved. This would be bad for the USGA.

 

Won't happen. Whoever makes the rules will be stupid, according to the players and the masses.

 

Golf has a bit more going on, rules wise, than football or basketball. No way to avoid that.

[davep043]

True I suppose. Just unfortunate that the examples are being made of the ones who not once have had an issue with this , before the rule change ( I've yet to find a video of it and I've searched ) and the ones who did it every single shot have ran away and blended into the crowd like robbers who are now just pedestrians in a large city.

You and I will disagree here. Its not "examples being made", its enforcing the rule. The players who have broken the current rule have been penalized. You don't get a pass on the new rule because you never broke the old rule. Most players, on all tours, have managed to avoid breaking the rule, even those for whom it required the biggest change in habits. The women who used the caddie for alignment weren't "robbers", they were playing within the rules of the time, and they are apparently playing with the new rules.

 

Its like changing a speed limit. They put up signs 2 years in advance, telling you that the speed limit will change. They ask for comments on the change. They put up new signs after all the review, and tell you exactly what the change will be, and when it will take place (9 months away). When the speed limit finally changes, they put up the signs, and if you don't slow down, you get a ticket. Its not making an example, its enforcing the rule.

 

No. I don't disagree. By the rule I agree. But agreeing with that leads me to the only logical conclusion (for me) is that the rule must be looked at again. Just like an artificially low speed limit. If all it's catching is people doing 40 in a 35 and not people doing 55 in a now 35 ( the original gripe ) then how do you claim " safety ". When most are doing 40 now which is 5 under the old listed ( "safe" speed limit. At that point you're just ticketing your neighbors for going slow. Which leads to not being re-elected sheriff or chief. Lol.

 

I don't know the answer. But I do know that it doesn't seem to work as is.

 

I wonder. Why can't some rules be a judgment call ? Why not say " caddies don't line up your players. Get caught DQ. " And enforce it. Then be sure when you bring the hammer down. Would be a rare call on any tour.

I have asked a few times to no avail... So I'll try again. If these men's caddies are not helping line up wth are they doing behind the player at that time? Schenk's excuse was bs. He claimed the caddie was there to help him pick a spot to land the ball....ie helping him line up. It's laughable really to defend that as not breaking the rule.

 

Who cares how many times the caddie helped line up a player in 2018 and prior? It was legal behavior then. Why all this angst about how it was designed to stop the ladies? Because they absolutely did stop the behavior some seemed to hate so much. But now the same guys are defending the men for doing the same when it is no longer legal.

Makes absolutely no sense at all. Meaning the behavior or the defense of it.

Actually picking a spot to land the ball on the green or fringe is not helping align the player. It is basically like helping read a putt or pick a target behind the green to aim an approach shot. The caddie wasn't aligning his feet in the bunker or the clubface. Also since it is a bunker shot, the direction of the shot is driven much more by swing path and clubface than stance making a stance dependent rule questionable in application. The rule was broken as written, but not broken in intent. Any rule that is generating this many false positives is poorly written.

I know bladehunter and I have gone back and forth over this. the only way to enforce the "intent" of the caddie to align the player is to watch for hand signals or lips moving. The only practical way to stop the caddie alignment process is to stop the caddie from being in a position where he CAN align the player. That is what the rule does, it bans the caddie from being in a specific place at a specific time. Everyone knew about this specific place last year, the only thing that changes was the timing. This particular instance isn't a "false positive", the caddie actually WAS in the wrong spot at the wrong time. I'm positive!.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Thanks-- I'm familiar with the fact that they asked members for input and I wonder how much it weighed on the development of the initial draft and subsequent drafts and final version? Thanks for the info about Nick-- but unless he served on the core committee (I assume they had one) it seems unless they had a Tour Pro on the core committee that it would be a large gap.

 

I'm not sure who was on the respective USGA and R&A Committees.

 

Why should they have a tour pro per se? They're making the rules for everybody not just the 0.0001% that play on tour. Sure, everybody's input is important.

 

I suspect that not many tour pros have all that much interest in the work of refining the rules; they just like to complain when the outcome isn't as they wanted...

If they wanted support they need to make the process truly open and transparent and over communicate the heck out of it. This is done by working closely with a broad spectrum of people whom not only love the game but make their living playing the game, which should naturally include tour pros past or present. This smells like they rewrote this largely as they wanted and input was perhaps window dressing. BTW I generally am supportive of the changes, but have suspicions about the method.

 

I'm suspicious because this organization has been aloof and out of touch and I don't trust what comes out of this gang at the USGA. For instance they said they had overwhelming support for a new world handicap system yet they only solicited their GHIN holders ONCE with a survey buried in one email... just one!! And yet while they only had something like less than 1% response rate to the survey they somehow concluded that as "overwhelming support." In reality I suspect this is exactly what they wanted as they really only wanted input from generally "hand selected" minds of similar ilk. I mean seriously, besides an elite minority like the USGA's Locust Valley Lockjaw friends, who really is regularly jetting off overseas to play handicapped golf with those on differing handicap systems? Sorry but I smell fish!

[raynorfan1]

A set of PGA Tour Rules wouldn't be a group "taking over the rules", it would be a professional sports league writing and administering the rules under which its competitions are played. Just like the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, etc. Agree that the Opens wouldn't adopt them. Unsure about the PGA Championship. Masters? Likely not, but who knows? I guess it would depend on what the differences would be.

 

My main point is: The USGA wouldn't be excited if PGA Tour had its own rules. If the USGA was smart, it wouldn't try to be witty and cute in tweeting with players, no matter how wrong the player is. "What are you gonna do about it? We've always made the rules" is a dangerous position to take.

 

Honestly, I don't think the USGA would care if the PGA Tour had its own rules. It would create some weird situations though in terms of qualifying for the Opens (they certainly wouldn't accept "points" generated in events not played under their rules).

 

But, for example, the PGA tour has played events in "scramble" or other unrecognized formats and the USGA really doesn't care.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Thanks-- I'm familiar with the fact that they asked members for input and I wonder how much it weighed on the development of the initial draft and subsequent drafts and final version? Thanks for the info about Nick-- but unless he served on the core committee (I assume they had one) it seems unless they had a Tour Pro on the core committee that it would be a large gap.

 

I'm not sure who was on the respective USGA and R&A Committees.

 

Why should they have a tour pro per se? They're making the rules for everybody not just the 0.0001% that play on tour. Sure, everybody's input is important.

 

I suspect that not many tour pros have all that much interest in the work of refining the rules; they just like to complain when the outcome isn't as they wanted...

 

Which is precisely why the USGA should tread lightly. The premier professional golf tour in the world chooses to adopt USGA rules, and the USGA benefits greatly from that relationship.

[raynorfan1]

If they wanted support they need to make the process truly open and transparent and over communicate the heck out of it. This is done by working closely with a broad spectrum of people whom not only love the game but make their living playing the game, which should naturally include tour pros past or present. This smells like they rewrote this largely as they wanted and input was perhaps window dressing. BTW I generally am supportive of the changes, but have suspicions about the method.

 

Honestly, I can't imagine how they could have made the process more open and transparent. They wrote drafts, circulated them more than a year in advance, asked for feedback from everybody. And they did change some things in between. IIRC, the original "drop" re-write allowed a drop from any height, which was then changed (based on feedback) to this silly knee-high scenario. I think the flagstick thing also changed a little from draft to implementation.

 

I don't think even Golf Channel would have put the Committee discussions on the air; but I'm not sure how they could have been more transparent.

[davep043]

Is there an explanation for why caddies can't assist with lining up?

 

Also anyone have some insight on the process and used to draft the new rules? Were there any PGA tour players, past or present, assisting or formally consulted in the rewrite?

From this publication:

http://www.usga.org/...olf for 2019 (1).pdf

Although a player may get advice from a caddie on the shot to be played, the line of play and similar matters, the ability to line up one’s feet and body accurately to a target line is a fundamental skill of the game for which the player alone should be responsible. o

Allowing a caddie to stand behind a player taking a stance so as to direct the player how to line up undermines the player’s need to use his or her own alignment skills and judgment.

 

I can't find the reference, but I remember statements that all of the major professional tours had people involved with the revision of the rules. I don't know the timing of extent or these contributions, but if I find the quotes I'll post them.

And now I found one example, this from Martin Slumbers last week:

“The Rules of Golf committee at the R&A has done a lot of heavy lifting, but we’ve done it all with the tours from Day 1,” Slumbers pointed out. “And the tours sit on our Rules of Golf committee and have been involved. I think that’s important to remember. This is not just us in isolation. We do this in collaboration right across the game. But, yes, it is a lot of change. So we will continue to work closely with the tours and with the players. I remain completely committed to believing this is the right thing for the game. We will work through any further issues.”