Pros and others throw USGA under the bus.

[MtlJeff]

> @airjammer said:

> A bunch of millionaires complaining about another bunch of millionaires..talk about 1st world problems??‍♂️

>

> At the end if the day it’s the USGA’s tournament..if the pros don’t want to play it, I’ll be happy to take their spot for a 100th of the prize money.

>

> People talk about this tournament almost as much as the Masters because of all this drama...that’s it’s niche. If you don’t differentiate yourself, why even have it?

 

But the point is the USGA doesn't want guys like me or you in the US open for 1/100th the prize money. They want the top pros there, they want the big TV contracts, they make rules decisions and base their hot takes on the game of golf arguably exclusively on the pro game (see Mike Davis lamenting about the money spent on upgrading courses, he's not talking about the private or public courses we play).

 

The USGA cares disproportionately about pros, they just want total control over them. You're right it's millionaires fighting with millionaires, but there's one group of millionaires I really enjoy watching and would have a tough time replacing (pros) and another that seems like they could be replaced fairly easily with newer , more in touch people at little impact to me

[DFS PFD]

Did you guys get your scheduled emotional bashing of the USGA out of your system yet? Countdown to this one heading to the cooler fueled by the usual actors 3...2..1. Mike Davis has consistently been an issue, lets see what happens at Pebble since he handed off course set up (But yes I know he's a puppet master and will still be 100% involved).

[buckeyefl]

> @davep043 said:

> > @dalehead said:

> > The USGA is still in love with Ben Hogan's game. Drive it in the fairway, hit the green, two putt for par. Nothing wrong with that but the professional game has become bomb and gouge. Not going to be judgemental about which is better but they are different games. When you put bomb and gougers on a course set up for Hogan they are going to have problems. When you add in USGA prepared greens and pin positions you can make them look ridiculous. If that is what viewers want the USGA has a history of delivering it. Pebble could be a tipping point. Will the USGA driver another Shinnecock?

> >

> > The idea of a player boycott has been pretty unthinkable. But if the sentiment in the Golf Digest article is wide spread another disastrous US Open could give it momentum.

> >

> > The solution seems simple. Maybe not easy, but simple. Bring in consultants from the PGA and European tours. The USGA doesn't have to turn control over to them, and it doesn't have to be done with a lot of face losing publicity, but it's time for the USGA to save themselves from themselves.

>

> One thing I've seen, the tour pros, as a general group, do not want to have to adapt. They didn't like being forced to adapt to new rules, and they don't like having to adapt their game to the typical US Open conditions. And when they have problems adapting, they blame it on someone else, not on themselves. Again, this isn't a defense of the UGSA's mistakes in green speed and pin positions, but it IS a defense of the USGA's decisions to narrow fairways, lengthen the rough, and firm up the greens (to a reasonable level). As @dalehead says, I'm not saying one style of play is preferable to another, there should be room for all styles. But if the USGA chooses a style that you're not comfortable with, and you're unable to adapt, don't complain about their choice.

 

It's far from just not being able to or wanting to adapt. Much much farther. The majority of the negative comments come when hitting quality shots are penalized it conditions border on absurd.

[buckeyefl]

> @"North Texas" said:

> Just read every comment in the article. There might not be a more spoiled group of people than PGA tour pros along with their caddies and teachers.

 

Oh bull. When the best players/ teachers/ caddies/ rules officials/ superintendents complain about the job you do then you ( the USGA) shut your arrogant mouth and listen. None if them are asking for easy, just fair while challenging.

[bladehunter]

> @umassgolfer said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @umassgolfer said:

> > > I am by NO MEANS a USGA apologist, and I think the way they have pushed US Open courses to and past the edge recently has made it more a game of chance vs. skill. Now, it is obviously "cool" to bash on the USGA and they deserve much of the criticism, but It doesn't take a piling-on list of anonymous quotes to teach us the US Open has become a bit of a joke due to course set-ups. The best (and maybe only) constructive comment in the article was that the TOURs need to have some input, even if not final decision making power, over set-ups, or get someone like Geoff Ogilvy to help out.

> > >

> > > I respect the opinions and perspective of those who spoke up for the article. However, I think the comments not related to course set-up come from a very narrow view and place of frustration that the USGA does not solely serve to please the professional game. The PGA TOUR is an organization whose purpose is to serve the players - so of course they'll like those events best. On the other hand, USGA's mission is supposedly attempting to serve the 20 million+ non-professional golfing masses, not the 1,000 or so touring professionals in the world.

> > >

> > > Further, with us not having seen the "pie chart" and not knowing what the $25 million "other" bucket was, it is ignorant and selfish of the players to think the USGA's payout ratio to revenue would be the same as the TOUR. This is the USGA's fundraiser for the year, to support the amateur, senior, women's events, all of their other initiatives, etc. I'd imagine a good bit of that "other" goes to supporting those events. Also - imagine the outrage if the players knew the percentage of revenue the Masters paid out - can't imagine that compares favorably.

> >

> > On the surface sure. But look a bit deeper. Why if questioned would yo I show up with a pie chart. One with a $25mil slice that’s no allocated to any place. That person quoted With that said explicitly that if they showed to be using that money to “ grow or further the game “ then it’s all good. But usually. ( nothing is 100% ) when a large Corp is asked to give an account of its self or spending and they show up with a $25mil blind spot , that means funny business going on. And for every snake you see ($25mil in this case ) there’s usually 20 or more they don’t show. Makes me wonder just how deep the pockets of this slush fund are ?

>

> Respectfully, both of our comments are 100% speculative. I choose to believe that represents an "unallocated/TBD fund" or towards some other above-board initiative(s), you think it is going into the execs' pockets. I'm sure the answer is somewhere in the middle, but ultimately it doesn't matter.

>

> The point I was trying to make is there are legitimate criticisms and the pros are uniquely qualified to weigh in on inside-the-ropes details, but complaining about the purse and revenue distribution comes off as petty at best and makes me take the rest of their complaints with a grain of salt. They're complaining about "only" playing for $2.1mil+ to the winner and $12mil total purse, which was the largest in golf by $1mil (9.09% higher than 2nd) until the PLAYERS came in this year with $12.5mil...

 

Kind of like the ncaa pay the players a living wage argument. The work horses feel like their masters should up the sweet feed if the gross crop yield and/or acreage worked goes up. Only seems right that proportions stay relatively in line.

[buckeyefl]

> @"DFS PFD" said:

> Did you guys get your scheduled emotional bashing of the USGA out of your system yet? Countdown to this one heading to the cooler fueled by the usual actors 3...2..1. Mike Davis has consistently been an issue, lets see what happens at Pebble since he handed off course set up (But yes I know he's a puppet master and will still be 100% involved).

 

He's still there along with like-minded people and attitude. A come to Jesus moment is in order.

[gvogel]

> @umassgolfer said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @umassgolfer said:

> > > I am by NO MEANS a USGA apologist, and I think the way they have pushed US Open courses to and past the edge recently has made it more a game of chance vs. skill. Now, it is obviously "cool" to bash on the USGA and they deserve much of the criticism, but It doesn't take a piling-on list of anonymous quotes to teach us the US Open has become a bit of a joke due to course set-ups. The best (and maybe only) constructive comment in the article was that the TOURs need to have some input, even if not final decision making power, over set-ups, or get someone like Geoff Ogilvy to help out.

> > >

> > > I respect the opinions and perspective of those who spoke up for the article. However, I think the comments not related to course set-up come from a very narrow view and place of frustration that the USGA does not solely serve to please the professional game. The PGA TOUR is an organization whose purpose is to serve the players - so of course they'll like those events best. On the other hand, USGA's mission is supposedly attempting to serve the 20 million+ non-professional golfing masses, not the 1,000 or so touring professionals in the world.

> > >

> > > Further, with us not having seen the "pie chart" and not knowing what the $25 million "other" bucket was, it is ignorant and selfish of the players to think the USGA's payout ratio to revenue would be the same as the TOUR. This is the USGA's fundraiser for the year, to support the amateur, senior, women's events, all of their other initiatives, etc. I'd imagine a good bit of that "other" goes to supporting those events. Also - imagine the outrage if the players knew the percentage of revenue the Masters paid out - can't imagine that compares favorably.

> >

> > On the surface sure. But look a bit deeper. Why if questioned would yo I show up with a pie chart. One with a $25mil slice that’s no allocated to any place. That person quoted With that said explicitly that if they showed to be using that money to “ grow or further the game “ then it’s all good. But usually. ( nothing is 100% ) when a large Corp is asked to give an account of its self or spending and they show up with a $25mil blind spot , that means funny business going on. And for every snake you see ($25mil in this case ) there’s usually 20 or more they don’t show. Makes me wonder just how deep the pockets of this slush fund are ?

>

> Respectfully, both of our comments are 100% speculative. I choose to believe that represents an "unallocated/TBD fund" or towards some other above-board initiative(s), you think it is going into the execs' pockets. I'm sure the answer is somewhere in the middle, but ultimately it doesn't matter.

>

> The point I was trying to make is there are legitimate criticisms and the pros are uniquely qualified to weigh in on inside-the-ropes details, but complaining about the purse and revenue distribution comes off as petty at best and makes me take the rest of their complaints with a grain of salt. They're complaining about "only" playing for $2.1mil+ to the winner and $12mil total purse, which was the largest in golf by $1mil (9.09% higher than 2nd) until the PLAYERS came in this year with $12.5mil...

 

I am going to guess that the "other" bucket is going into a war chest so that the USGA can fend off lawsuits if and when they decide that equipment needs to be altered to fit the playing fields. Fred Ridley at Augusta National would sure like to have the USGA/R&A do something so that he doesn't have to recommend lengthening the 13th hole. He said as much in his press conference this year. Also, remember that Fred is a past president of the USGA, so as much as you all love the Masters, there is a friendship between the guys who run the Masters and the guys who run the USGA.

 

I get it that the USGA has a history of getting the green speeds wrong. It goes back a long time - Bobby Jones putted off one of the greens and into a creek at Merion when he played his first US Amateur in 1916. So the USGA infatuation with super fast greens goes way back - and I have friends at country clubs who boast about that very thing when it comes to their own courses. But the tradition of setting up a US Open golf course to be more difficult than a regular PGA Tour stop is something that, I think, is important.

 

I just wish they wouldn't push the greens to, or over, the edge.

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @dalehead said:

> > The USGA is still in love with Ben Hogan's game. Drive it in the fairway, hit the green, two putt for par. Nothing wrong with that but the professional game has become bomb and gouge. Not going to be judgemental about which is better but they are different games. When you put bomb and gougers on a course set up for Hogan they are going to have problems. When you add in USGA prepared greens and pin positions you can make them look ridiculous. If that is what viewers want the USGA has a history of delivering it. Pebble could be a tipping point. Will the USGA driver another Shinnecock?

> >

> > The idea of a player boycott has been pretty unthinkable. But if the sentiment in the Golf Digest article is wide spread another disastrous US Open could give it momentum.

> >

> > The solution seems simple. Maybe not easy, but simple. Bring in consultants from the PGA and European tours. The USGA doesn't have to turn control over to them, and it doesn't have to be done with a lot of face losing publicity, but it's time for the USGA to save themselves from themselves.

>

> One thing I've seen, the tour pros, as a general group, do not want to have to adapt. They didn't like being forced to adapt to new rules, and they don't like having to adapt their game to the typical US Open conditions. And when they have problems adapting, they blame it on someone else, not on themselves. Again, this isn't a defense of the UGSA's mistakes in green speed and pin positions, but it IS a defense of the USGA's decisions to narrow fairways, lengthen the rough, and firm up the greens (to a reasonable level). As @dalehead says, I'm not saying one style of play is preferable to another, there should be room for all styles. But if the USGA chooses a style that you're not comfortable with, and you're unable to adapt, don't complain about their choice.

 

 

Dave I’d agree with you IF that’s what actually happened with the course setup. but it’s not. Every year they kill greens completely. They grow rough in spots that were fairway and at several locations actually altered the course design itself , moving bunkers , using cross hole tees etc. ( Marion and chambers ) . They aren’t simply growing rough and double cutting /rolling greens and tucking pins. That would be ok by everyone.

[bladehunter]

> @bermuda said:

> So it sounds like the players and coaches are saying John Daly was right in 1999 at Pinehurst.

 

 

He was

[bscinstnct]

At quick glance, the Euro players seem more apt to "fall in line"

 

MULTIPLE EUROPEAN TOUR WINNER: I played with two leading Americans in the first two rounds last year. One whined for two days. The other's caddie had to tell him to shut up at one point, he was being such a pain. He said it was “clown golf,” but it wasn't. He was just hitting it bad.

MULTIPLE EUROPEAN TOUR WINNER: The U.S. Open should be a test of temperament as well as execution and technique.

EUROPEAN TOUR WINNER: I've played in three U.S. Opens on three classic courses. I never had a problem at any of them. I thought the USGA did a fantastic job.

MULTIPLE EUROPEAN TOUR WINNER: Is it a major test when you're hitting it to five feet on every hole? My idea of a good shot is hitting a 5-iron into a firm green to 30 feet.

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > Phil took crap for it but his stunt last year I'm sure resonated with many.

> > > > As for the USGA being thrown under the bus? They absolutely deserve it and hopefully the bus goes forward and backward numerous times over them.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > What Phil did was stupid. Stupid because he took all the heat for something most of the players really wanted to do. But it was necessary to bring attention to the ridiculous conditions created by the USGA. So it was a good move by Phil but stupid because he became the focus by acting silly.

> > >

> >

> > Agreed. I thought it was a great move by Phil, sacrificing his own dignity for the greater good. Putting a magnify glass on the whole clown show.

>

> I think if Phil felt so strongly about things, if he really did this on purpose to make a point, he really should have stood on his own hind legs and DQed himself. He'd have a whole lot more credibility with me if he had done that. Instead, he claimed to have thought through the various potential rules, quickly realized that if he merely stopped the ball, he's DQ, but if he putts it, he may only get 2 strokes, and then hustled down to "putt" it. I'm not defending the set-up of the course, but I can't defend Phil's actions and statements either.

> What I found interesting is that a much larger percentage of the folks identified as being "European Tour" players were accepting of the extreme difficulty than those not identified as European. Perhaps Euro players in general are less pampered, and more prepared for "less than perfect" conditions.

> A separate thing, I wonder how many Tour players, major winners, swing coaches, etc have even the faintest clue about how to maintain a golf course, and get it into peak form for an event. They all know what they want, and feel free to complain when they don't get what they want, but they have no idea of how to achieve it.

> Last, prize money is an issue, a reason to consider a boycott? Seems pretty **** greedy for a bunch of guys who have become millionaires playing a game.

 

Dave. Come on. Many many people have worked on maintenance crews , as assistant greens keepers etc growing up. Myself included. Many golf professionals included. Does that make me a Superintendent? Hell no. But. I know enough about the cake batter to know that the USga kills things on purpose. When the consultants said at shinecock “ the course needs water “ and you add none. Guess what ? You get to paint the greens for TV to make them appear alive , within 48 hours or less. To suggest that they aren’t at fault for any agronomy issues for the week , with all they have at their disposal is just not true. Short of a swarm of pestilence , a famine , or a power grid failure coupled with a 3 month drought , they can handle anything . And even then they have the resources for a generator to run the pump house . I don’t see a way to shrug off their actions as anything but purposeful obtuseness.

[cardoustie]

The USGA needs help running the US Open. The Euro and PGA Tour run a lot of events every year. The USGA should fire their own guys and use proper experienced folks that do tour set ups on a weekly basis - hire them as consultants.

Mike Davis was supposed to fix all this nonsense and he's done zero (except pull the BirdMan out of Webb's speech)

This goes way back. remember Payne at Olympic on #18? It's been a CONSISTENT cluster duck. Not a rare one off

I'm telling you I could set the pins up and my super could manage the greens. This is not that hard unless you are trying to deliver concrete surfaces with dead grass and conditions that can wildly vary every day.

[North Texas]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @"North Texas" said:

> > Just read every comment in the article. There might not be a more spoiled group of people than PGA tour pros along with their caddies and teachers.

>

> Oh bull. When the best players/ teachers/ caddies/ rules officials/ superintendents complain about the job you do then you ( the USGA) shut your arrogant mouth and listen. None if them are asking for easy, just fair while challenging.

 

I do not disagree that the USGA should listen. But the players, caddies, and teachers are just as spoiled as the USGA is arrogant.

[cardoustie]

Oh and per some of the earlier posts. I can tell you from my US Am qualifying days that these USGA guys are not the event experts they let themselves believe they are. I think my favorite story was a rules official driving over my ball and giving me a plugged lie in the rough and then arguing with me that I wasn't going to get relief! That was not a fun 5 minutes of very heated arguing - which I eventually (mostly) won.

[Forged4ever]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @BMC said:

> > Running the US Open is a very small part of what the USGA does. Some pampered tour pros just complaining.

> > Thousands of amateurs playing in hundreds of tournaments a year don't seem to have any problem with the USGA.

>

> That would be incorrect but it was obvious which way you were going after your first comment. Do you seriously think that people commenting are unaware or have never experienced the different areas the USGA touches? Think about that one and read the comments on this site and who they come fromand you'll see what a ridiculous conclusion you put forward.

 

Not trying to pile on however your post is spot on. Having been on 12 different Committees, across both Professional and Amateur, Mens’ & Womens’ tourneys, and as either a Committee Chair(5) or Co-Chair(2) on 7 of them, I have a decent idea of how the USGA operates that the average Am who Plays in a handful of tourneys a year does not.

 

The one thing that I will say is that say what you will about the ‘16 Open at Oakmont, however Oakmont had much more say than the usual host of a Major USGA tourney, Amateur or Professional, and the boys at Oakmont put the kabosh on a few USGA planned initiatives, both administratively and a few things pertaining to the course.

 

Yes, Oakmont bent to the USGA’s will in the early 90’s regarding some major course changes, however since then, the Guys realized that the USGA needs Oakmont more than Oakmont needs the USGA.

 

I could tell some stories that would leave you shaking your heads, LYA’s off and thinkin that I made em up cuz they are so ridiculously ludicrous however I(and in a few cases, Maddie) were present when some senior USGA hack was bloviating and chirping pure nonsense and they were dead serious as they had passed these initiatives & proposed actions past other USGA senior leadership and were convinced of their merits!!

 

You would have to sit in such a meeting to truly appreciate some of the buffoonery that goes on behind closed doors.

 

However, since about 2009-2010ish, following the groove ruling and compounded by the belly-putter ban, it has become en vogue to rip the organization for anything and everything pertaining to the game of golf, lol.

 

That being said, and realizing that ya can’t please everyone, the USGA has no one to blame but themselves.

 

Stay well Buck?

 

Fairways & Greens My Friend⛳️

RP

[tgsevers81]

That article, and those comments, might have real, actual weight were they not anonymous! So many heavy hitters in the professional ranks willing to speak their mind publicly, without actually going on the record! Hurray, that'll teach the USGA! You're so fed up that you wanna boycott? Then f'ing boycott! If you feel so strongly, and have something to say, then stand up, say it, and own it, on the record. Then maybe something gets accomplished. I am not apologizing for the USGA by any means here. But for the love of golf, the last thing I am interested in is a bunch of ego inflated millionaire, professional athletes and their cohorts belly-aching about a golf tournament...anonymously!

[davep043]

> @bscinstnct said:

> At quick glance, the Euro players seem more apt to "fall in line"

>

> MULTIPLE EUROPEAN TOUR WINNER: I played with two leading Americans in the first two rounds last year. One whined for two days. The other's caddie had to tell him to shut up at one point, he was being such a pain. He said it was “clown golf,” but it wasn't. He was just hitting it bad.

> MULTIPLE EUROPEAN TOUR WINNER: The U.S. Open should be a test of temperament as well as execution and technique.

> EUROPEAN TOUR WINNER: I've played in three U.S. Opens on three classic courses. I never had a problem at any of them. I thought the USGA did a fantastic job.

> MULTIPLE EUROPEAN TOUR WINNER: Is it a major test when you're hitting it to five feet on every hole? My idea of a good shot is hitting a 5-iron into a firm green to 30 feet.

 

I'd say we're all consistent. Those who think the USGA is always wrong will accept the anonymous opinions of those who think the USGA is always wrong, and ignore these types of quotes. Those who think the USGA does a lot of things right will accept these opinions, and shrug off the other's as spoiled brats. As with most issues, the real truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

[bburleigh0625]

The US Open is supposed to be the most difficult test these guys face each year and I do look forward to getting to watch them play a tough set up to see how they handle it. With that being said I was at Shinnicock last year on Saturday and it was a joke. The best players in the world were putting balls off the back of the green from the front because the ball just would not stop. I think a lot of these guys complain more about the fact that the USGA lately has been going over the top with the whole "toughest test in golf" idea. As a spectator that day it was not fun to watch these guys get completely slaughtered by the course. The PGA this year was a good example of making a course difficult but doable, hopefully the USGA takes a lesson from that.

[buckeyefl]

> @gvogel said:

> > @umassgolfer said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @umassgolfer said:

> > > > I am by NO MEANS a USGA apologist, and I think the way they have pushed US Open courses to and past the edge recently has made it more a game of chance vs. skill. Now, it is obviously "cool" to bash on the USGA and they deserve much of the criticism, but It doesn't take a piling-on list of anonymous quotes to teach us the US Open has become a bit of a joke due to course set-ups. The best (and maybe only) constructive comment in the article was that the TOURs need to have some input, even if not final decision making power, over set-ups, or get someone like Geoff Ogilvy to help out.

> > > >

> > > > I respect the opinions and perspective of those who spoke up for the article. However, I think the comments not related to course set-up come from a very narrow view and place of frustration that the USGA does not solely serve to please the professional game. The PGA TOUR is an organization whose purpose is to serve the players - so of course they'll like those events best. On the other hand, USGA's mission is supposedly attempting to serve the 20 million+ non-professional golfing masses, not the 1,000 or so touring professionals in the world.

> > > >

> > > > Further, with us not having seen the "pie chart" and not knowing what the $25 million "other" bucket was, it is ignorant and selfish of the players to think the USGA's payout ratio to revenue would be the same as the TOUR. This is the USGA's fundraiser for the year, to support the amateur, senior, women's events, all of their other initiatives, etc. I'd imagine a good bit of that "other" goes to supporting those events. Also - imagine the outrage if the players knew the percentage of revenue the Masters paid out - can't imagine that compares favorably.

> > >

> > > On the surface sure. But look a bit deeper. Why if questioned would yo I show up with a pie chart. One with a $25mil slice that’s no allocated to any place. That person quoted With that said explicitly that if they showed to be using that money to “ grow or further the game “ then it’s all good. But usually. ( nothing is 100% ) when a large Corp is asked to give an account of its self or spending and they show up with a $25mil blind spot , that means funny business going on. And for every snake you see ($25mil in this case ) there’s usually 20 or more they don’t show. Makes me wonder just how deep the pockets of this slush fund are ?

> >

> > Respectfully, both of our comments are 100% speculative. I choose to believe that represents an "unallocated/TBD fund" or towards some other above-board initiative(s), you think it is going into the execs' pockets. I'm sure the answer is somewhere in the middle, but ultimately it doesn't matter.

> >

> > The point I was trying to make is there are legitimate criticisms and the pros are uniquely qualified to weigh in on inside-the-ropes details, but complaining about the purse and revenue distribution comes off as petty at best and makes me take the rest of their complaints with a grain of salt. They're complaining about "only" playing for $2.1mil+ to the winner and $12mil total purse, which was the largest in golf by $1mil (9.09% higher than 2nd) until the PLAYERS came in this year with $12.5mil...

>

> I am going to guess that the "other" bucket is going into a war chest so that the USGA can fend off lawsuits if and when they decide that equipment needs to be altered to fit the playing fields. Fred Ridley at Augusta National would sure like to have the USGA/R&A do something so that he doesn't have to recommend lengthening the 13th hole. He said as much in his press conference this year. Also, remember that Fred is a past president of the USGA, so as much as you all love the Masters, there is a friendship between the guys who run the Masters and the guys who run the USGA.

>

> I get it that the USGA has a history of getting the green speeds wrong. It goes back a long time - Bobby Jones putted off one of the greens and into a creek at Merion when he played his first US Amateur in 1916. So the USGA infatuation with super fast greens goes way back - and I have friends at country clubs who boast about that very thing when it comes to their own courses. But the tradition of setting up a US Open golf course to be more difficult than a regular PGA Tour stop is something that, I think, is important.

>

> I just wish they wouldn't push the greens to, or over, the edge.

 

Ridley makes a choice along with his members but in no way is it required. Let's just stop with that nonsense now.

 

Their history contains far more than getting green speeds wrong.

 

As far as a "war chest", well if you don't go to war over nonsense then there's nothing to worry about. We've discussed the ball to death but when the ProV came out they couldn't even get that right with the thing sitting in their offices. Going backwards is not a good idea and doesn't grow the game in the least.

 

Also you are far more optimistic than facts would dictate if you really believe that's where the funds have gone.

[nsxguy]

I have to wonder why the below "headlines" from that article weren't copied and pasted here ???

 

**MULTIPLE MAJOR CHAMPION, INCLUDING THE U.S. OPEN: The USGA could do 10 great things at a U.S. Open, but the one bad thing they do is what gets publicized.

**

**MULTIPLE EUROPEAN TOUR WINNER: People overreact. I can't see Faldo or Nicklaus moaning about all that stuff.

**

**CADDIE FOR MULTIPLE PGA TOUR WINNERS: The USGA official with every group always patronizes the caddies on the first tee: “Make sure you've got 14 in there—count your clubs.” That's insulting.

**

LMAO - Patronizing ? Insulting ? Helping the caddies avoid getting fired for something we've seen a fair number of times ? That's "insulting" and "patronizing" ? now THAT is just good comedy.

 

**TEACHER OF MULTIPLE MAJOR CHAMPIONS: They're amateurs who think they know it all—a dangerous combination.

**

Really ? Wow. Talk about "pot meet kettle".

 

On 2nd thought, I don't wonder at all why nobody in this thread re-printed those statements. LOL

 

It'll never happen but I'd love to see the players try to boycott the US Open. The stampede for the openings would be a sight to see.

 

And the point about spoiled players couldn't be more to the point. Millionaires complaining about other millionaires. 1st world problems indeed.

 

And I'm not nearly so bored as to try to find out which of you guys said things like "Bomb and gouge" is killing golf." "Who wants to see -28 winning a tournament ?" "Everything is driver/wedge",,,,,,,,,,, and who is complaining about Open conditions.

 

BTW, did anybody notice the rough at the PGA ? Jordan trying to hit a hybrid out of it. Only 6 players break par ?. Players having to wedge it back into play ? Disgraceful. I don't recall many people on here complaining about that. Good thing the greens at BB were, though pretty fast, for the most part, relatively flat - can you imagine the outcry ? LOL

 

 

[buckeyefl]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > Phil took crap for it but his stunt last year I'm sure resonated with many.

> > > > > As for the USGA being thrown under the bus? They absolutely deserve it and hopefully the bus goes forward and backward numerous times over them.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > What Phil did was stupid. Stupid because he took all the heat for something most of the players really wanted to do. But it was necessary to bring attention to the ridiculous conditions created by the USGA. So it was a good move by Phil but stupid because he became the focus by acting silly.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Agreed. I thought it was a great move by Phil, sacrificing his own dignity for the greater good. Putting a magnify glass on the whole clown show.

> >

> > I think if Phil felt so strongly about things, if he really did this on purpose to make a point, he really should have stood on his own hind legs and DQed himself. He'd have a whole lot more credibility with me if he had done that. Instead, he claimed to have thought through the various potential rules, quickly realized that if he merely stopped the ball, he's DQ, but if he putts it, he may only get 2 strokes, and then hustled down to "putt" it. I'm not defending the set-up of the course, but I can't defend Phil's actions and statements either.

> > What I found interesting is that a much larger percentage of the folks identified as being "European Tour" players were accepting of the extreme difficulty than those not identified as European. Perhaps Euro players in general are less pampered, and more prepared for "less than perfect" conditions.

> > A separate thing, I wonder how many Tour players, major winners, swing coaches, etc have even the faintest clue about how to maintain a golf course, and get it into peak form for an event. They all know what they want, and feel free to complain when they don't get what they want, but they have no idea of how to achieve it.

> > Last, prize money is an issue, a reason to consider a boycott? Seems pretty **** greedy for a bunch of guys who have become millionaires playing a game.

>

> Dave. Come on. Many many people have worked on maintenance crews , as assistant greens keepers etc growing up. Myself included. Many golf professionals included. Does that make me a Superintendent? **** no. But. I know enough about the cake batter to know that the USga kills things on purpose. When the consultants said at shinecock “ the course needs water “ and you add none. Guess what ? You get to paint the greens for TV to make them appear alive , within 48 hours or less. To suggest that they aren’t at fault for any agronomy issues for the week , with all they have at their disposal is just not true. Short of a swarm of pestilence , a famine , or a power grid failure coupled with a 3 month drought , they can handle anything . And even then they have the resources for a generator to run the pump house . I don’t see a way to shrug off their actions as anything but purposeful obtuseness.

 

The best quote last year was one of the announcers saying that the USGA leadership we're the only ones who didn't know what the forecast was for Saturday. That speaks volumes because typically announcers are hesitant to say such negative things and it was true which shows the heavy handed arrogance and agenda of the USGA in all of it's fragrant beauty.

[North Texas]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > Phil took crap for it but his stunt last year I'm sure resonated with many.

> > > > > > As for the USGA being thrown under the bus? They absolutely deserve it and hopefully the bus goes forward and backward numerous times over them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > What Phil did was stupid. Stupid because he took all the heat for something most of the players really wanted to do. But it was necessary to bring attention to the ridiculous conditions created by the USGA. So it was a good move by Phil but stupid because he became the focus by acting silly.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Agreed. I thought it was a great move by Phil, sacrificing his own dignity for the greater good. Putting a magnify glass on the whole clown show.

> > >

> > > I think if Phil felt so strongly about things, if he really did this on purpose to make a point, he really should have stood on his own hind legs and DQed himself. He'd have a whole lot more credibility with me if he had done that. Instead, he claimed to have thought through the various potential rules, quickly realized that if he merely stopped the ball, he's DQ, but if he putts it, he may only get 2 strokes, and then hustled down to "putt" it. I'm not defending the set-up of the course, but I can't defend Phil's actions and statements either.

> > > What I found interesting is that a much larger percentage of the folks identified as being "European Tour" players were accepting of the extreme difficulty than those not identified as European. Perhaps Euro players in general are less pampered, and more prepared for "less than perfect" conditions.

> > > A separate thing, I wonder how many Tour players, major winners, swing coaches, etc have even the faintest clue about how to maintain a golf course, and get it into peak form for an event. They all know what they want, and feel free to complain when they don't get what they want, but they have no idea of how to achieve it.

> > > Last, prize money is an issue, a reason to consider a boycott? Seems pretty **** greedy for a bunch of guys who have become millionaires playing a game.

> >

> > Dave. Come on. Many many people have worked on maintenance crews , as assistant greens keepers etc growing up. Myself included. Many golf professionals included. Does that make me a Superintendent? **** no. But. I know enough about the cake batter to know that the USga kills things on purpose. When the consultants said at shinecock “ the course needs water “ and you add none. Guess what ? You get to paint the greens for TV to make them appear alive , within 48 hours or less. To suggest that they aren’t at fault for any agronomy issues for the week , with all they have at their disposal is just not true. Short of a swarm of pestilence , a famine , or a power grid failure coupled with a 3 month drought , they can handle anything . And even then they have the resources for a generator to run the pump house . I don’t see a way to shrug off their actions as anything but purposeful obtuseness.

>

> The best quote last year was one of the announcers saying that the USGA leadership we're the only ones who didn't know what the forecast was for Saturday. That speaks volumes because typically announcers are hesitant to say such negative things and it was true which shows the heavy handed arrogance and agenda of the USGA in all of it's fragrant beauty.

 

Is it true because the announcer said so or is it true because the USGA admitted it? I'm asking because I honestly don't know.

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

 

> Dave. Come on. Many many people have worked on maintenance crews , as assistant greens keepers etc growing up. Myself included. Many golf professionals included. Does that make me a Superintendent? **** no. But. I know enough about the cake batter to know that the USga kills things on purpose. When the consultants said at shinecock “ the course needs water “ and you add none. Guess what ? You get to paint the greens for TV to make them appear alive , within 48 hours or less. To suggest that they aren’t at fault for any agronomy issues for the week , with all they have at their disposal is just not true. Short of a swarm of pestilence , a famine , or a power grid failure coupled with a 3 month drought , they can handle anything . And even then they have the resources for a generator to run the pump house . I don’t see a way to shrug off their actions as anything but purposeful obtuseness.

 

If you can find anyplace where I've suggested that the USGA didn't screw some things up, please quote it. I never have. If we want to discuss things, we should probably deal with the things we actually say.

[Ferguson]

> @"Mr. Hogan" said:

> > @ebrasmus21 said:

>

> > If I’m anti-USGA does that make me a commie ba$tard?

>

> Not at all. The USGA is an embarrassment to the United States. They should be stripped of the privilege to use "United States" in their title.

 

 

Does anyone else feel as though Mr. Hogan could be a former USGA employee and was not exactly happy with his gold watch when he retired?

 

 

Why can't I comment on WRX today with the mobile app?

 

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

>

> > Dave. Come on. Many many people have worked on maintenance crews , as assistant greens keepers etc growing up. Myself included. Many golf professionals included. Does that make me a Superintendent? **** no. But. I know enough about the cake batter to know that the USga kills things on purpose. When the consultants said at shinecock “ the course needs water “ and you add none. Guess what ? You get to paint the greens for TV to make them appear alive , within 48 hours or less. To suggest that they aren’t at fault for any agronomy issues for the week , with all they have at their disposal is just not true. Short of a swarm of pestilence , a famine , or a power grid failure coupled with a 3 month drought , they can handle anything . And even then they have the resources for a generator to run the pump house . I don’t see a way to shrug off their actions as anything but purposeful obtuseness.

>

> If you can find anyplace where I've suggested that the USGA didn't screw some things up, please quote it. I never have. If we want to discuss things, we should probably deal with the things we actually say.

 

I certainly read where you suggest that those complaining don’t know what goes into keeping a course in top shape.

 

I’m saying you aren’t calling the screw ups for what they are. Not screw ups. But intentional Mickey Mouse setups. Setups that do not benefit the course or the tournament.

[airjammer]

 

 

> @MtlJeff said:

> > @airjammer said:

> > A bunch of millionaires complaining about another bunch of millionaires..talk about 1st world problems??‍♂️

> >

> > At the end if the day it’s the USGA’s tournament..if the pros don’t want to play it, I’ll be happy to take their spot for a 100th of the prize money.

> >

> > People talk about this tournament almost as much as the Masters because of all this drama...that’s it’s niche. If you don’t differentiate yourself, why even have it?

>

> But the point is the USGA doesn't want guys like me or you in the US open for 1/100th the prize money. They want the top pros there, they want the big TV contracts, they make rules decisions and base their hot takes on the game of golf arguably exclusively on the pro game (see Mike Davis lamenting about the money spent on upgrading courses, he's not talking about the private or public courses we play).

>

> The USGA cares disproportionately about pros, they just want total control over them. You're right it's millionaires fighting with millionaires, but there's one group of millionaires I really enjoy watching and would have a tough time replacing (pros) and another that seems like they could be replaced fairly easily with newer , more in touch people at little impact to me

 

Honestly, I have no idea what the usga can do for me personally. With my family situation I don’t have the ability to play in any tournaments so??‍♂️ As long as the pga tour goes by whatever rules the usga come up with they do have ultimate power over the pros and have for as long as they been around. They have ultimate power over me as well if I want to play in usga ruled events. If I don’t like I don’t have to participate just like the pros. You can’t get a top 10 bomber to play courses that the Kevin Na’s of the tour can complete with them. When they do happen to play due to pga “must play different tournament” rules they lose to a Furyk or Na.

 

Imo the USGA is in favor of you having control over your body and golf ball and I for one agree with that. Have they let things go too far on some equipment and course set ups..yes they have. As a parent of a 3 year old..more than once I have told my daughter “no don’t do that” to something I let her do previously...something that didn’t look that dangerous in the beginning but as she got faster/more confident the danger became apparent.

 

Most casual fans only like the players they like because the “Tour” wants you to like those players by setting up the course for those type of players. BK wasn’t a dominant force on the European tour and there is a reason for that.

[dlygrisse]

To me the pros are coming off as a bunch of spoiled babies. Did the USGA make some mistakes with course set up on occasion? Absolutely. Should those mistakes be addressed and should they learn from them? Yes. My real grievances with the USGA are about the groove rule, and the COR rule, but a couple of holes that get a out of hand at what is known as the toughest tournament on earth? meh...all the pros are playing the same course. I'm sorry it embarrassed them, and sure it went too far, but the winner is the guy that gets around in the fewest shots. I enjoy watching the struggle, I find tournaments that offer nothing but pars and birdies boring. I find bomb and gouge boring, I find the premise that the course has to be "fair" and making birdies as some sort of better entertainment contrary to what a major should be. I know these guys can make birdies, I want to see them overcome adversity.....

Life ain't fair, neither is golf. If you find the fairway it becomes more fair, but it's still not fair. The good breaks and the bad breaks tend to even out over 72 holes.

[bscinstnct]

Once of the most common criticisms by the pro's is trying to > @davep043 said:

> > @bscinstnct said:

> > At quick glance, the Euro players seem more apt to "fall in line"

> >

> > MULTIPLE EUROPEAN TOUR WINNER: I played with two leading Americans in the first two rounds last year. One whined for two days. The other's caddie had to tell him to shut up at one point, he was being such a pain. He said it was “clown golf,” but it wasn't. He was just hitting it bad.

> > MULTIPLE EUROPEAN TOUR WINNER: The U.S. Open should be a test of temperament as well as execution and technique.

> > EUROPEAN TOUR WINNER: I've played in three U.S. Opens on three classic courses. I never had a problem at any of them. I thought the USGA did a fantastic job.

> > MULTIPLE EUROPEAN TOUR WINNER: Is it a major test when you're hitting it to five feet on every hole? My idea of a good shot is hitting a 5-iron into a firm green to 30 feet.

>

> I'd say we're all consistent. Those who think the USGA is always wrong will accept the anonymous opinions of those who think the USGA is always wrong, and ignore these types of quotes. Those who think the USGA does a lot of things right will accept these opinions, and shrug off the other's as spoiled brats. As with most issues, the real truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

 

Seems a common criticism by the pros is the USGA trying to manufacture a winning score of par.

 

"MULTIPLE MAJOR CHAMPION, INCLUDING THE U.S. OPEN: They publicly say they aren't trying to chase a score, but it's pretty obvious that they are.

WINNER OF MORE THAN 10 EUROPEAN TOUR EVENTS: I get the feeling they're lying. [Laughs.]

WINNER OF MORE THAN 20 EUROPEAN TOUR EVENTS: Par as the winning score—they have to get rid of that immediately. The game has changed. The Masters tried to do that years ago and failed. The event was boring for a few years, so they put the excitement back.

FORMER U.S. OPEN CHAMPION: The Masters is clearly the most successful professional tournament in the world, by a mile.

SWING COACH FOR A MAJOR CHAMPION: Augusta's greens are stupid, but they put the pins in places that minimize the stupidity. The USGA never does that.

WINNER OF MORE THAN 20 EUROPEAN TOUR EVENTS: We used to know that, if you shot 65 on Day One of the U.S. Open, the pins would be in silly places the next day."

 

Here is TW from a different piece,

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tiger-woods-jabs-usga-the-randa-doesnt-manufacture-an-open-or-care-what-par-is

 

"One of the neat things about playing about the Open Championship, they don't care what par is," Woods said at TPC Potomac. "They let whatever Mother Nature has…if it's in store for a wet Open, it is, if it is dry, it's dry. They don’t try to manufacture an Open."

When asked a follow-up if that was a shot at the USGA, Woods replied, "Come again?" and when the question was repeated, a handler escorted Woods away, saying, "I heard ya," with a smile.

 

 

[bladehunter]

> @nsxguy said:

> I have to wonder why the below "headlines" from that article weren't copied and pasted here ???

>

> **MULTIPLE MAJOR CHAMPION, INCLUDING THE U.S. OPEN: The USGA could do 10 great things at a U.S. Open, but the one bad thing they do is what gets publicized.

> **

> **MULTIPLE EUROPEAN TOUR WINNER: People overreact. I can't see Faldo or Nicklaus moaning about all that stuff.

> **

> **CADDIE FOR MULTIPLE PGA TOUR WINNERS: The USGA official with every group always patronizes the caddies on the first tee: “Make sure you've got 14 in there—count your clubs.” That's insulting.

> **

> LMAO - Patronizing ? Insulting ? Helping the caddies avoid getting fired for something we've seen a fair number of times ? That's "insulting" and "patronizing" ? now THAT is just good comedy.

>

> **TEACHER OF MULTIPLE MAJOR CHAMPIONS: They're amateurs who think they know it all—a dangerous combination.

> **

> Really ? Wow. Talk about "pot meet kettle".

>

> On 2nd thought, I don't wonder at all why nobody in this thread re-printed those statements. LOL

>

> It'll never happen but I'd love to see the players try to boycott the US Open. The stampede for the openings would be a sight to see.

>

> And the point about spoiled players couldn't be more to the point. Millionaires complaining about other millionaires. 1st world problems indeed.

>

> And I'm not nearly so bored as to try to find out which of you guys said things like "Bomb and gouge" is killing golf." "Who wants to see -28 winning a tournament ?" "Everything is driver/wedge",,,,,,,,,,, and who is complaining about Open conditions.

>

> BTW, did anybody notice the rough at the PGA ? Jordan trying to hit a hybrid out of it. Only 6 players break par ?. Players having to wedge it back into play ? Disgraceful. I don't recall many people on here complaining about that. Good thing the greens at BB were, though pretty fast, for the most part, relatively flat - can you imagine the outcry ? LOL

>

>

 

I read each of those quotes. But i take each differently than you spin them. I Totally get the caddie comment. As a expert in my field that deals with many many novice owners of my work , I have to grin and bare the teachings or reminders of soooo many idiots who couldn’t think their way out of a paper sack. My favorite is when a customer walks In and has a nice neat projection drawn up of what their fabrication project will cost. My first question is “ why didnt you do it yourself “? Which is met almost 100 % of the time with a huge gasp. Lol. Point. If you don’t do it. You can’t possibly tell me how to do it . Do you tell your doctor how to operate on your eyes ? Do you give your attorney advice ? Don’t give other professionals advice just Because you perceive them as blue collar and their job as menial.

 

 

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> >

> > > Dave. Come on. Many many people have worked on maintenance crews , as assistant greens keepers etc growing up. Myself included. Many golf professionals included. Does that make me a Superintendent? **** no. But. I know enough about the cake batter to know that the USga kills things on purpose. When the consultants said at shinecock “ the course needs water “ and you add none. Guess what ? You get to paint the greens for TV to make them appear alive , within 48 hours or less. To suggest that they aren’t at fault for any agronomy issues for the week , with all they have at their disposal is just not true. Short of a swarm of pestilence , a famine , or a power grid failure coupled with a 3 month drought , they can handle anything . And even then they have the resources for a generator to run the pump house . I don’t see a way to shrug off their actions as anything but purposeful obtuseness.

> >

> > If you can find anyplace where I've suggested that the USGA didn't screw some things up, please quote it. I never have. If we want to discuss things, we should probably deal with the things we actually say.

>

> I certainly read where you suggest that those complaining don’t know what goes into keeping a course in top shape.

>

> I’m saying you aren’t calling the screw ups for what they are. Not screw ups. But intentional Mickey Mouse setups. Setups that do not benefit the course or the tournament.

 

The guys complaining really don't have no clue about what it takes. How many of these current players actually had to work on a grounds crew growing up, or during their college days? They're way too busy with practice and tournament play in those years, they didn't have time to spend 40 or 50 hours a week riding a mower, or cutting cups, or digging out leaky sprinkler heads.

We're not going to agree. I'm glad that the US Open has traditionally and intentionally stood out from the rest, that it is substantially more difficult than your average Ti-D-Bowl Invitational. I honestly don't care if they change the character of the courses a bit to make that happen, even beyond simply growing more and deeper rough and firming up the greens. I don't like seeing truly impossible conditions, but i do enjoy seeing difficult conditions. Use a label like "Mickey Mouse" if you prefer, but I like seeing the guys tested sometimes.