The decline of the country club

[buckeyefl]

> @"Hack Daddy" said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @GolfChannel said:

> > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > @GolfChannel said:

> > > > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > > > @GolfChannel said:

> > > > > > > > @"Big Ben" said:

> > > > > > > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > > > > > The clubs that have done well around where I am are the ones that are either the very top end ones (there are still plenty of rich people), or are the ones that got rid of the "country club" mentality and focused less on amenities and more on providing golf at a good price.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Btw in regards to wealth, I have heard some people mention it and I think it's worth discussing too....we seem to have WAY more things than we used to . So sometimes I'll see someone who is 35 or whatever and they'll say they have no savings, but they have 2 cars, all their kids have iPads, they're subscribed to 2-3 different streaming services, the dad has a "man cave" with 20000$ worth of electronics etc....

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Growing up my dad did pretty well but we had one car we all shared and one TV, and personal electronics didn't exist. Some of the "cost of living" stuff is true, but some of it is pretty murky. How much stuff we have now do we really "need" vs 25 years ago, or are they more "wants" that everyone just gets without thinking about it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Bingo! I can’t ever remember wanting and asking for something and getting it without a ton of sweat equity. I think we can all agree we live in a me/now society.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I have no idea why it’s common place for people to throw others under the bus, especially those which they know nothing about. As a teacher and professor, this generation from my experience works harder than any prior generation. The issue I have with my students is they know how to work hard, they don’t however know how to work smart. They will spend 8 hours on something that should have taken 4 hours, because for all the technology they have no one has ever actually taught them how to use it effectively. Just like the country club issue, education is still on the model of an era which died decades ago. We are quite literally holding back the greatest creative generation in our history because of our ineptitude and expectations based on a “real world” which doesn’t actually exist anymore.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You would really have to quantify "harder"and you experience besides academia in order to make that grand of a proclamation. Also "creative" doesn't make the world go round and is only available to people once someone does the real hard work.

> > > > >

> > > > > Almost every quantifiable piece of evidence points to this generation working harder in the classroom (students now by and large take a much larger AP/magnet/college prep rich class load versus the old read and rote memorization classroom) and the work place (American workers continue to be among the most productive in the world), the only evidence which continues to disprove this conclusion is of the colloquial nature.

> > > >

> > > > You seem really off base on several fronts such as rote memorization. You are really going to hang your hat on that one given the influx of standardized testing across the country which promotes learning to pass a specific test over actual learning? Sorry friend but that's just one example of your disconnect and opinion based on opinion. You are doing the equivalent of thinking all golfers are scratch because everyone you play with happens to be at the level and that motivated. It simply doesn't hold water in the real world and you've talked out of both sides of your mouth several times in this thread. Drive on though as there are plenty of windmills out there to be taken out.

> > >

> > > So, now you’re an expert in my field. Good times.

> > Well when someone makes a ridiculous statement isn't it dishonest not to correct them so their misinformation doesn't spread like a disease? It's pretty well documented that rote memorization is the requirement of the day in order to get out of most high schools and most teachers I know hate it. One would think someone in the field would be more aware of what happens at the foundation of our education system.

> >

> > Well as in most things you have said and I pointed out, you live in a small bubble with obvious limited exposure to the world around you. "Generation" doesn't just mean the people you are around daily. Academia has a bad habit of doing that to good people.

> >

> > Your points / opinions have holes the size of the private courses you get play on someone else's dime while talking bad about them and ignoring the hard work put into the club. That's not even going into your discounting of the shoulders of Giants that your current generation of over achievers walks on daily while looking down at their cell phones.

> >

> > You mentioned a "real world" that doesn't exist anymore and yet you don't seem to know what makes the world go around and how everything we have today comes from the hard work of past generations from the "real world" and not the "creative" powers of your star students.

> >

> > This comment in particular speaks volumes.

> >

> > "If we can save the courses and kill the clubs I am all for their demise. I have never understood “Country Club” culture. I would be wary of joining anything where there are requirements to membership whether financial or demographic in nature. It just seems like an old world mindset for close mindedness. Open the courses, charge whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard."

> >

> > ". I also have a close relationship with two local private clubs (Bay Hill and Orange Tree) that help and provide privileges to our high school golf program free of cost."

> >

> > So help me out, should the two clubs mentioned be dismantled because they are kind enough to help you out? Do you tell ownership and the members how close minded and exclusionary they are for being a private club? Isn't opening the course to everyone but charging "whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard" exclusionary? It would seem to be since you mentioned exclusion through finance.

>

> School psychologist checking-in.

>

> Not sure where you're getting your data or info, but familiarize yourself with common core - and what present day curriculum standards and testing are.

>

 

I would rather no one familiarize themselves with Common Core. Teachers teaching to pass standardized tests is and has been a point of contention for a very long time because it has a huge downside when it comes to real learning and critical thinking.

[Hawkeye77]

Edit.

[buckeyefl]

> @"Hack Daddy" said:

> > @KMeloney said:

> > > @"Hack Daddy" said:

> > > Another thing is, as a highly educated Black man, in a white collar job, making over six figures - I STILL get "looks" when I demo a club. As GC said, the culture of the Club is going to be its demise.

> >

> > Hold on... You get "looks" because these people know you're highly educated and in a white-collar job making $1MM+? How do they know all of those things just by you demoing a club?

> >

>

> As much as I shouldn't reply to such a troll post - I get looks because a lot of people don't want a Black man in their club. I'd like to have a rational discussion with you, but it seems you don't have the ability to cognitively understand what I'm eluding to.

>

> Also, I've been a member at two clubs already. So to say that I'm making assumptions about what true, private, country club culture is like - is incorrect.

>

> Edit - six, not seven... genius.

 

Two whole clubs and your psychic abilities have already lead you to believe all golfers and country clubs are racist? Simply sad that what you've been raised to believe has tainted your view of the world. Hopefully you think twice before passing that along to the younger generations.

 

I wish I had read this post first so I wouldn't even have wasted a second of my life responding to the first comment of someone with your type of thinking.

[dpb5031]

> @Ferguson said:

>

> > >

> > > Even if we wanted to (which nobody does) my club couldn't possibly afford to be so picky about members that we turn away a large group who wanted to join together and play together. If four guys came in and talked to the membership director and said, "We all want to join and just get a tee time together every Saturday and Sunday morning" the club would like, "Four new members, that's awesome news". We had a visit recently from a dozen or go guys planning to decamp from another club in town. They specifically asked if getting three tee adjacent tee times and keeping their group together was going to be a problem and we assured them that was fine.

> > >

> > > Very early in my private club experience there were still a handful of older guys (not sterotyping, just saying these guys were all in their 70's and 80's) who would take new members aside and some point and give them the hard sell about showing up every week for dinner, signing up for the various banquets and dances and holiday soirees and generally "supporting the life of the club". I'm pretty sure 90% of those new members gave them the same puzzled look and polite, "Thanks but no thanks" that I did.

> > >

> > > But what do I know. I'm a truck slammer. Or at the least a golf-only member. My average arrival time is about 20-25 minutes before I tee off. Then after golf, I'm around long enough to eat lunch (if it's lunch time) and settle up bets then I'm off home. Many, many of the guys I've played with over the years are the same way. We happily exist right alongside the guys who show up at 10m, hang around until lunch is served, play golf in the afternoon, then stay around drinking until the bar closes after dark. They arguably get more value for the dues dollar than the golf-only guys like me, every day at the club is like a 9+ hour party. Good on 'em.

> >

> > I think you guys are missing part of the point. Absolutely, in these times you take what you can get in terms of members, but you want to retain them as well. In my experience however, new members are much more inclined to end up being happy at a club, and therefore re-join in subsequent years, if they make friends and get involved. Just a generality of course as there will always be exceptions.

> >

> > One of my jobs as a BOD member was outreach and introductions to new members. I'd usually do it through email, but sometimes over lunch or even golf if possible. Often time new members, especially those completely new to the private club scene, are mildly intimidated by the existing men's groups. If no one tells them, it's easy to see how they could feel unwelcome...especially less outgoing types. I'd discuss with them what they were looking for from the club, what days they liked to play, etc., etc. I'd tell them what groups played on what days and times, what tees they played from, what type of betting (if any) was involved, and what the general handicaps and abilities were of the players in the different groups. If they expressed interest, I'd introduce them to the guys and get them on the regular text and email chains. I'd also tell them about some of our regular events like one-day member guests, club tourneys, men's night out, etc. Most sincerely appreciated this effort, whether they decided to partake, or not.

>

>

> My gosh read what you are typing. I think you are what embodies the "old style" country club guy. You characterize people based on what you think they should be doing with their membership, or how they should act or interact with others. How are you so intuitive?

>

> “The millennial does this.”

> “The new member feels mildly intimidated.”

> “I know what makes members feel happy.”

> “I know why members stick around.”

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

@Ferguson, would a Board member reaching out to you offering to make introductions really be that offensive to you?

 

I didn't claim "to know " anything about a person definitively other than what they may have expressed to me or the membership director, nor did I characterize anyone or any group definitively. I suggest you re-read what I wrote. Our objective was to make new members feel comfortable and welcome. Is that so horrible and "old-style country club?" Seems like good manners and hospitality to me. It was up to the new member after that to use the club how they saw fit. If they chose not to get involved, no hard feelings...there was no pressure whatsoever. Responding to my email offer to introduce the to the groups and tell them about club activities was not mandatory...lol!

 

And BTW, this practice came about AFTER getting substantial feedback from new members who had joined for a year (or two) and then decided not to renew, or were on the fence about it. So yes, through surveys and exit interviews we did have a pretty good idea of why most members stuck around, and what they expected from their club.

[Philomathesq]

> @GolfChannel said:

> 38 year old young professional with an established home and family. I can afford to join a club, but why would I when I live in an area where the best courses are public and it’s far cheaper to pay per 18 holes versus some crazy monthly or annual fee not worth what you get out of it (thanks GolfNow and the like).

>

> I think the common sense answer for the decline in club membership is our culture has largely moved beyond “clubs” and exclusion, but the clubs haven’t evolved with the change.

>

> If we can save the courses and kill the clubs I am all for their demise. I have never understood “Country Club” culture. I would be wary of joining anything where there are requirements to membership whether financial or demographic in nature. It just seems like an old world mindset for close mindedness. Open the courses, charge whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard.

 

You and I have similar demographics (I'm a few years younger, but have an established home and family, as well). But, that seems to be where the similarities end. I belong to a country club and I love it. I love the fact that I can go out to the course any day of the week (except Mondays, when the course is closed) and go play without needing to have a tee time to do so. The course is always available for a round, the facilities are great, the course is always in excellent condition, and I don't have to deal with drunk bros ruining the experience for others. And, because there is a financial commitment to join the club, the vast majority of members are in similar situations (i.e. married, kids, home owners, etc.), which is great because you get to plug right into a community that has the same general interests and issues you have. That is, if I need a babysitter recommendation, it's only an email away. It's about more than just golf, though golf is a huge part of it. Getting rid of country clubs simply because you dislike exclusivity is senseless. I don't like Wal-Mart, but that doesn't mean we should get rid of them all.

 

Whether you want to admit it or not, no matter how "open-minded" people are or how inclusive and "diverse" or society believes it is, exclusion will always survive. I don't know you, but it wouldn't surprise me that, despite your dislike of "close mindedness" and exclusion, you live in a nice neighborhood where the majority of Americans can't afford to live. I don't say this as an attack, but it just is the way it is. Most people that can afford to live in nice neighborhoods with good schools and low crime choose to do so without ever thinking about the "exclusivity" of their choice. People want security and safety and are willing to pay for exclusivity even if they are not consciously doing so. Maybe I'm wrong, though... Maybe you live in a squalid one-bedroom apartment because you truly hate exclusivity.

 

Exclusion will always exist, but that doesn't mean it is inherently evil or even a bad thing.

[Philomathesq]

> @GolfChannel said:

> **Spend a day in a modern class, rote memorization is the quickest way to get fired as a teacher**, but please continue to lecture me with your gospel via colloquialism.

>

> I don’t understand why some are so proud of their ignorance. You quite literally have an entire civilizations knowledge at your fingertips if you only clicked the search button.

>

> I would start with “inferences” since you enjoy making them about my sentiments. I would then work my way into “contradictions” and then edit your posts accordingly.

 

I'm going to counter your extreme generalization with my own. When I moved to Texas, we decided to give the local public schools a try because they are all ranked in the top 1% of public schools in Texas. For example, the average SAT score at the local high school is 1310, which is over the 90th percentile. You know what they teach there? Rote memorization of useless facts. When we first moved here, my son was in 2nd grade and was already able to do algebra. His teacher assigned him addition and subtraction with three digit numbers. I met with her and told her that he could do the work, but he needed to be more challenged. Her response to me was that the school district mandated that all kids must learn the same material and no deviations would be allowed. She actually got emotional and said she wished she could assign him extra homework, but that she would get fired if she deviated one iota from the prescribed curriculum. So, we immediately dis-enrolled our kids and put them into a private school that could accommodate them.

 

The point, though, is that it is absolutely not true that modern classroom teachers get fired for teaching rote memorization. My wife is a former teacher (taught in MI) and my best friend's wife is a current teacher (in WA), and they both believe that the state of public education is horrible because of the inflexibility of the system and the focus on teaching to tests. So, maybe MI, WA, and TX are the exceptions to the rule, but I just can't believe that the way your school works is the norm.

 

[dpb5031]

Another point seemingly lost here is that clubs, whether for profit or not, are a business. They need a certain amount of revenue just to keep the doors open, the place staffed, and the course maintained to member expectations.

 

So if you're involved in running that business, you want/need members who spend incrementally above and beyond their basic dues. Members who get involved spend more, and that's desirable. You cant maintain certain amenities and services if they're under utilized and therefore under funded.

 

So yes, post-recession many clubs have reduced dues for younger members, but with the hopes that they'll get involved, and graduate to full dues paying members when they reach the age requirement. The member who hits 3000 range balls per week, plays by himself without taking a cart, and doesn't otherwise participate in club activities is not going to be shunned or chased out, but he's certainly sub-optimal in terms of what most clubs are hoping for in new members.

[trilerian]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @trilerian said:

> > I like to play golf, practice putting, chipping and hitting different clubs, etc. All the rest is for the birds.

>

> That describes at least 50-75 of the 300 or so members of my club, maybe even more than that.

>

> A lot of us are members because it's (in our opinion) the best course within an hour's drive and it has good practice facilities. Not because some of the other members like to hang out to eat and drink in the clubhouse of an evening.

>

> I envy you if you live in an area where you can play golf the way you like, on a course you like and practice as you like, all without having to join a private country club to do it. I'd be all over that in a heartbeat!

 

There are a few different opportunities in my area for a reasonable season pass. I can also, if I want to spend the money, get a walking season pass with unlimited range to Warren Golf Course (Senior US Open this year) for $2200. But I pay $500 a year for a season pass at a local muni, I generally don't get out till 6pm, and I can usually throw down a couple of balls and play without issue. Other days I use the 190yd practice hole with a shag bag, and work on my swing. If golf were to cost me, what it costs some of the people here to play, there is no way I would play. But, then again, if I lived in a high cost of living area, I would probably make double what I do now, so it may even out...

[Hack Daddy]

> @cardoustie said:

> HackDaddy, hit me up for a game if you ever get to the Toronto area

 

Will do, my good sir.

 

Gents, I wasn't trying to be that guy, and inject a racial factor - but I just wanted to make sure we all knew it still very much exists in true private club culture. While it may not be blatant everytime, it's the little things. I'm 6'3" 240 - can't even estimate the amount of times I've been in my own club and have been asked, "Who do you play for?". Or, if I'm in entertainment; which really gets my jimmies rustled since I have an advanced degree.

 

So, I do apologize if I threw a grenade in a calm room, but it's something that I've found as a constant variable at all the clubs I've either been an equity member at, or have demo'ing.

[Philomathesq]

> @"Hack Daddy" said:

> > @cardoustie said:

> > HackDaddy, hit me up for a game if you ever get to the Toronto area

>

> Will do, my good sir.

>

> Gents, I wasn't trying to be that guy, and inject a racial factor - but I just wanted to make sure we all knew it still very much exists in true private club culture. While it may not be blatant everytime, it's the little things. I'm 6'3" 240 - can't even estimate the amount of times I've been in my own club and have been asked, "Who do you play for?". Or, if I'm in entertainment; which **really gets my jimmies rustled** since I have an advanced degree.

>

> So, I do apologize if I threw a grenade in a calm room, but it's something that I've found as a constant variable at all the clubs I've either been an equity member at, or have demo'ing.

 

Not to make light of the issues you've faced, because that crap is bullxxxx, but the bolded above is an awesome phrase, and I'm going to be using it from now on.

[cardoustie]

> @"Hack Daddy" said:

> > @cardoustie said:

> > HackDaddy, hit me up for a game if you ever get to the Toronto area

>

> Will do, my good sir.

>

> Gents, I wasn't trying to be that guy, and inject a racial factor - but I just wanted to make sure we all knew it still very much exists in true private club culture. While it may not be blatant everytime, it's the little things. I'm 6'3" 240 - can't even estimate the amount of times I've been in my own club and have been asked, "Who do you play for?". Or, if I'm in entertainment; which really gets my jimmies rustled since I have an advanced degree.

>

> So, I do apologize if I threw a grenade in a calm room, but it's something that I've found as a constant variable at all the clubs I've either been an equity member at, or have demo'ing.

 

I'm taking the "who did you play for" and running with it if I am you. Manchester United, New Zealand All Blacks, I used to be a pro bowler, I'm on the pit crew for Lewis Hamilton, ruckman for the Hawthorne Hawks, 3rd lead for the US bobsled team, talk fencing, wax poetic about curling, MMA, etc. Pick lesser known sports and I'd give different guys different answers.

[Itsjustagame]

Half of the world's net wealth belongs to the top 1%.

The top 10% of adults hold 85%, while the bottom 90% hold the remaining 15% of the world's total wealth,

The top 30% of adults hold 97% of the total wealth.

The US numbers are not very different. And its getting worse. The WSJ had it right. As fewer people own dramatically more there are consequences, and much of the younger US population will be financially outmatched by every generation since the Depression.

[Ferguson]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @Ferguson said:

> >

> > > >

> > > > Even if we wanted to (which nobody does) my club couldn't possibly afford to be so picky about members that we turn away a large group who wanted to join together and play together. If four guys came in and talked to the membership director and said, "We all want to join and just get a tee time together every Saturday and Sunday morning" the club would like, "Four new members, that's awesome news". We had a visit recently from a dozen or go guys planning to decamp from another club in town. They specifically asked if getting three tee adjacent tee times and keeping their group together was going to be a problem and we assured them that was fine.

> > > >

> > > > Very early in my private club experience there were still a handful of older guys (not sterotyping, just saying these guys were all in their 70's and 80's) who would take new members aside and some point and give them the hard sell about showing up every week for dinner, signing up for the various banquets and dances and holiday soirees and generally "supporting the life of the club". I'm pretty sure 90% of those new members gave them the same puzzled look and polite, "Thanks but no thanks" that I did.

> > > >

> > > > But what do I know. I'm a truck slammer. Or at the least a golf-only member. My average arrival time is about 20-25 minutes before I tee off. Then after golf, I'm around long enough to eat lunch (if it's lunch time) and settle up bets then I'm off home. Many, many of the guys I've played with over the years are the same way. We happily exist right alongside the guys who show up at 10m, hang around until lunch is served, play golf in the afternoon, then stay around drinking until the bar closes after dark. They arguably get more value for the dues dollar than the golf-only guys like me, every day at the club is like a 9+ hour party. Good on 'em.

> > >

> > > I think you guys are missing part of the point. Absolutely, in these times you take what you can get in terms of members, but you want to retain them as well. In my experience however, new members are much more inclined to end up being happy at a club, and therefore re-join in subsequent years, if they make friends and get involved. Just a generality of course as there will always be exceptions.

> > >

> > > One of my jobs as a BOD member was outreach and introductions to new members. I'd usually do it through email, but sometimes over lunch or even golf if possible. Often time new members, especially those completely new to the private club scene, are mildly intimidated by the existing men's groups. If no one tells them, it's easy to see how they could feel unwelcome...especially less outgoing types. I'd discuss with them what they were looking for from the club, what days they liked to play, etc., etc. I'd tell them what groups played on what days and times, what tees they played from, what type of betting (if any) was involved, and what the general handicaps and abilities were of the players in the different groups. If they expressed interest, I'd introduce them to the guys and get them on the regular text and email chains. I'd also tell them about some of our regular events like one-day member guests, club tourneys, men's night out, etc. Most sincerely appreciated this effort, whether they decided to partake, or not.

> >

> >

> > My gosh read what you are typing. I think you are what embodies the "old style" country club guy. You characterize people based on what you think they should be doing with their membership, or how they should act or interact with others. How are you so intuitive?

> >

> > “The millennial does this.”

> > “The new member feels mildly intimidated.”

> > “I know what makes members feel happy.”

> > “I know why members stick around.”

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> @Ferguson, would a Board member reaching out to you offering to make introductions really be that offensive to you?

>

> I didn't claim "to know " anything about a person definitively other than what they may have expressed to me or the membership director, nor did I characterize anyone or any group definitively. I suggest you re-read what I wrote. Our objective was to make new members feel comfortable and welcome. Is that so horrible and "old-style country club?" Seems like good manners and hospitality to me. It was up to the new member after that to use the club how they saw fit. If they chose not to get involved, no hard feelings...there was no pressure whatsoever. Responding to my email offer to introduce the to the groups and tell them about club activities was not mandatory...lol!

>

> And BTW, this practice came about AFTER getting substantial feedback from new members who had joined for a year (or two) and then decided not to renew, or were on the fence about it. So yes, through surveys and exit interviews we did have a pretty good idea of why most members stuck around, and what they expected from their club.

 

 

 

Not offensive at all. It just doesn't work for most people.

 

My beef (as a member of private club) is that here you are trying to sell the idea of “club life” but in the same post pointing fingers at the millennials (the largest consumer group on the face of the earth, presently) for their “abnormal” behavior. Who cares if they act differently, listen to music and don’t hang around all day.

 

To be a spokesperson for a club or any organization you must first understand that a working methodology for customer retention should not based in creating cookie cutter members. That’s old school thinking. Clubs are stagnating due to the lack appeal brought on by the shortage of diversity in membership. Your exit surveys are more than likely designed to prove your old school thinking to be true and not designed to understand your customer. That’s a big delta when it comes to understanding buying habits of people.

 

Our club surveys random members on a regular basis to promote continuous process and experience improvement. I like when they check in and ask how things are going.

We have an excellent retention rate.

 

Exit surveys show one thing only – that members come and go at clubs for a variety of reasons, none of which were related to how they were acclimated to the club.

 

[Hack Daddy]

> @cardoustie said:

> > @"Hack Daddy" said:

> > > @cardoustie said:

> > > HackDaddy, hit me up for a game if you ever get to the Toronto area

> >

> > Will do, my good sir.

> >

> > Gents, I wasn't trying to be that guy, and inject a racial factor - but I just wanted to make sure we all knew it still very much exists in true private club culture. While it may not be blatant everytime, it's the little things. I'm 6'3" 240 - can't even estimate the amount of times I've been in my own club and have been asked, "Who do you play for?". Or, if I'm in entertainment; which really gets my jimmies rustled since I have an advanced degree.

> >

> > So, I do apologize if I threw a grenade in a calm room, but it's something that I've found as a constant variable at all the clubs I've either been an equity member at, or have demo'ing.

>

> I'm taking the "who did you play for" and running with it if I am you. Manchester United, New Zealand All Blacks, I used to be a pro bowler, I'm on the pit crew for Lewis Hamilton, ruckman for the Hawthorne Hawks, 3rd lead for the US bobsled team, talk fencing, wax poetic about curling, MMA, etc. Pick lesser known sports and I'd give different guys different answers.

 

Interestingly enough, lol, a few of us were having a spirited discussion about which person of color broke through their respective sport in terms of domination, etc. The consensus was El Tigre. My turn came, I made sure to inject an awkward pause and said -

 

There's something about a guy climbing out of a multi-million dollar open wheeled car, in a billion dollar industry, with cornrows and neck tats.

 

I like to think I won that round.

 

Cheers, fellas!

[Hack Daddy]

> @Ferguson said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @Ferguson said:

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Even if we wanted to (which nobody does) my club couldn't possibly afford to be so picky about members that we turn away a large group who wanted to join together and play together. If four guys came in and talked to the membership director and said, "We all want to join and just get a tee time together every Saturday and Sunday morning" the club would like, "Four new members, that's awesome news". We had a visit recently from a dozen or go guys planning to decamp from another club in town. They specifically asked if getting three tee adjacent tee times and keeping their group together was going to be a problem and we assured them that was fine.

> > > > >

> > > > > Very early in my private club experience there were still a handful of older guys (not sterotyping, just saying these guys were all in their 70's and 80's) who would take new members aside and some point and give them the hard sell about showing up every week for dinner, signing up for the various banquets and dances and holiday soirees and generally "supporting the life of the club". I'm pretty sure 90% of those new members gave them the same puzzled look and polite, "Thanks but no thanks" that I did.

> > > > >

> > > > > But what do I know. I'm a truck slammer. Or at the least a golf-only member. My average arrival time is about 20-25 minutes before I tee off. Then after golf, I'm around long enough to eat lunch (if it's lunch time) and settle up bets then I'm off home. Many, many of the guys I've played with over the years are the same way. We happily exist right alongside the guys who show up at 10m, hang around until lunch is served, play golf in the afternoon, then stay around drinking until the bar closes after dark. They arguably get more value for the dues dollar than the golf-only guys like me, every day at the club is like a 9+ hour party. Good on 'em.

> > > >

> > > > I think you guys are missing part of the point. Absolutely, in these times you take what you can get in terms of members, but you want to retain them as well. In my experience however, new members are much more inclined to end up being happy at a club, and therefore re-join in subsequent years, if they make friends and get involved. Just a generality of course as there will always be exceptions.

> > > >

> > > > One of my jobs as a BOD member was outreach and introductions to new members. I'd usually do it through email, but sometimes over lunch or even golf if possible. Often time new members, especially those completely new to the private club scene, are mildly intimidated by the existing men's groups. If no one tells them, it's easy to see how they could feel unwelcome...especially less outgoing types. I'd discuss with them what they were looking for from the club, what days they liked to play, etc., etc. I'd tell them what groups played on what days and times, what tees they played from, what type of betting (if any) was involved, and what the general handicaps and abilities were of the players in the different groups. If they expressed interest, I'd introduce them to the guys and get them on the regular text and email chains. I'd also tell them about some of our regular events like one-day member guests, club tourneys, men's night out, etc. Most sincerely appreciated this effort, whether they decided to partake, or not.

> > >

> > >

> > > My gosh read what you are typing. I think you are what embodies the "old style" country club guy. You characterize people based on what you think they should be doing with their membership, or how they should act or interact with others. How are you so intuitive?

> > >

> > > “The millennial does this.”

> > > “The new member feels mildly intimidated.”

> > > “I know what makes members feel happy.”

> > > “I know why members stick around.”

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > @Ferguson, would a Board member reaching out to you offering to make introductions really be that offensive to you?

> >

> > I didn't claim "to know " anything about a person definitively other than what they may have expressed to me or the membership director, nor did I characterize anyone or any group definitively. I suggest you re-read what I wrote. Our objective was to make new members feel comfortable and welcome. Is that so horrible and "old-style country club?" Seems like good manners and hospitality to me. It was up to the new member after that to use the club how they saw fit. If they chose not to get involved, no hard feelings...there was no pressure whatsoever. Responding to my email offer to introduce the to the groups and tell them about club activities was not mandatory...lol!

> >

> > And BTW, this practice came about AFTER getting substantial feedback from new members who had joined for a year (or two) and then decided not to renew, or were on the fence about it. So yes, through surveys and exit interviews we did have a pretty good idea of why most members stuck around, and what they expected from their club.

>

>

>

> Not offensive at all. It just doesn't work for most people.

>

> My beef (as a member of private club) is that here you are trying to sell the idea of “club life” but in the same post pointing fingers at the millennials (the largest consumer group on the face of the earth, presently) for their “abnormal” behavior. Who cares if they act differently, listen to music and don’t hang around all day.

>

> To be a spokesperson for a club or any organization you must first understand that a working methodology for customer retention should not based in creating cookie cutter members. That’s old school thinking. Clubs are stagnating due to the lack appeal brought on by the shortage of diversity in membership. Your exit surveys are more than likely designed to prove your old school thinking to be true and not designed to understand your customer. That’s a big delta when it comes to understanding buying habits of people.

>

> Our club surveys random members on a regular basis to promote continuous process and experience improvement. I like when they check in and ask how things are going.

> We have an excellent retention rate.

>

> Exit surveys show one thing only – that members come and go at clubs for a variety of reasons, none of which were related to how they were acclimated to the club.

>

 

Excellent post.

[Shilgy]

Amazing how many seemed to have missed this part of DPB's post about how he would approach a new member.... how in the world is this pushing an agenda?

 

" I'd discuss with them what they were looking for from the club, what days they liked to play, etc., etc. I'd tell them what groups played on what days and times, what tees they played from, what type of betting (if any) was involved, and what the general handicaps and abilities were of the players in the different groups. If they expressed interest, I'd introduce them"

[cardoustie]

As a 51 year old guy at a private club for the last 16 years I can tell you things have changed dramatically

- less attendance at events, less interest in them overall (especially weekend stuff)

- way WAY less drinking

- way less hanging around the club for spurts before and after the round

- less family dinners

- the entrance fee has faded from a high of $75k to nearly nothing

Now my place is more of a golf club. It doesn't have a pool or a gym. It does have a sauna and steam room and hot tub. We do have reciprocals where we can play 30 other courses for no charge.

I love how I never need a tee time and like Dewey I love going to the range and sneaking out for a handful of holes at night on a cart by myself

The Wed 2pm shotgun, up to 120 guys, and the Member Guest are the highlites of the year.

[dpb5031]

> @Ferguson said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @Ferguson said:

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Even if we wanted to (which nobody does) my club couldn't possibly afford to be so picky about members that we turn away a large group who wanted to join together and play together. If four guys came in and talked to the membership director and said, "We all want to join and just get a tee time together every Saturday and Sunday morning" the club would like, "Four new members, that's awesome news". We had a visit recently from a dozen or go guys planning to decamp from another club in town. They specifically asked if getting three tee adjacent tee times and keeping their group together was going to be a problem and we assured them that was fine.

> > > > >

> > > > > Very early in my private club experience there were still a handful of older guys (not sterotyping, just saying these guys were all in their 70's and 80's) who would take new members aside and some point and give them the hard sell about showing up every week for dinner, signing up for the various banquets and dances and holiday soirees and generally "supporting the life of the club". I'm pretty sure 90% of those new members gave them the same puzzled look and polite, "Thanks but no thanks" that I did.

> > > > >

> > > > > But what do I know. I'm a truck slammer. Or at the least a golf-only member. My average arrival time is about 20-25 minutes before I tee off. Then after golf, I'm around long enough to eat lunch (if it's lunch time) and settle up bets then I'm off home. Many, many of the guys I've played with over the years are the same way. We happily exist right alongside the guys who show up at 10m, hang around until lunch is served, play golf in the afternoon, then stay around drinking until the bar closes after dark. They arguably get more value for the dues dollar than the golf-only guys like me, every day at the club is like a 9+ hour party. Good on 'em.

> > > >

> > > > I think you guys are missing part of the point. Absolutely, in these times you take what you can get in terms of members, but you want to retain them as well. In my experience however, new members are much more inclined to end up being happy at a club, and therefore re-join in subsequent years, if they make friends and get involved. Just a generality of course as there will always be exceptions.

> > > >

> > > > One of my jobs as a BOD member was outreach and introductions to new members. I'd usually do it through email, but sometimes over lunch or even golf if possible. Often time new members, especially those completely new to the private club scene, are mildly intimidated by the existing men's groups. If no one tells them, it's easy to see how they could feel unwelcome...especially less outgoing types. I'd discuss with them what they were looking for from the club, what days they liked to play, etc., etc. I'd tell them what groups played on what days and times, what tees they played from, what type of betting (if any) was involved, and what the general handicaps and abilities were of the players in the different groups. If they expressed interest, I'd introduce them to the guys and get them on the regular text and email chains. I'd also tell them about some of our regular events like one-day member guests, club tourneys, men's night out, etc. Most sincerely appreciated this effort, whether they decided to partake, or not.

> > >

> > >

> > > My gosh read what you are typing. I think you are what embodies the "old style" country club guy. You characterize people based on what you think they should be doing with their membership, or how they should act or interact with others. How are you so intuitive?

> > >

> > > “The millennial does this.”

> > > “The new member feels mildly intimidated.”

> > > “I know what makes members feel happy.”

> > > “I know why members stick around.”

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > @Ferguson, would a Board member reaching out to you offering to make introductions really be that offensive to you?

> >

> > I didn't claim "to know " anything about a person definitively other than what they may have expressed to me or the membership director, nor did I characterize anyone or any group definitively. I suggest you re-read what I wrote. Our objective was to make new members feel comfortable and welcome. Is that so horrible and "old-style country club?" Seems like good manners and hospitality to me. It was up to the new member after that to use the club how they saw fit. If they chose not to get involved, no hard feelings...there was no pressure whatsoever. Responding to my email offer to introduce the to the groups and tell them about club activities was not mandatory...lol!

> >

> > And BTW, this practice came about AFTER getting substantial feedback from new members who had joined for a year (or two) and then decided not to renew, or were on the fence about it. So yes, through surveys and exit interviews we did have a pretty good idea of why most members stuck around, and what they expected from their club.

>

>

>

> Not offensive at all. It just doesn't work for most people.

>

> My beef (as a member of private club) is that here you are trying to sell the idea of “club life” but in the same post pointing fingers at the millennials (the largest consumer group on the face of the earth, presently) for their “abnormal” behavior. Who cares if they act differently, listen to music and don’t hang around all day.

>

> To be a spokesperson for a club or any organization you must first understand that a working methodology for customer retention should not based in creating cookie cutter members. That’s old school thinking. Clubs are stagnating due to the lack appeal brought on by the shortage of diversity in membership. Your exit surveys are more than likely designed to prove your old school thinking to be true and not designed to understand your customer. That’s a big delta when it comes to understanding buying habits of people.

>

> Our club surveys random members on a regular basis to promote continuous process and experience improvement. I like when they check in and ask how things are going.

> We have an excellent retention rate.

>

> Exit surveys show one thing only – that members come and go at clubs for a variety of reasons, none of which were related to how they were acclimated to the club.

>

@Ferguson, you're making a lot of assumptions, not paying attention to detail, and putting a lot of quotes around statements that did not come from me. I said member surveys AND exit interviews, not just exit surveys, and the responses were both clear and informative.

 

We've done plenty to change and adapt the business model and the culture, but to be honest, we were founded in 1995 and were always relatively laid back compared to many old school-type clubs. Some examples would be allowing for jeans and other more casual forms of dress in the mixed grill, not serving food on slow days, reducing club tournament schedule by 20% to free up more weekend tee times, allowing push carts and walking 7 days per week with no restrictions, adding an unlimited cart plan for an upfront fee, installing a high quality synthetic turf hitting area primarily for outside outings and inclement weather days, expanding our short game practice area, making the final day of the men's member-guest completely casual, with no formal dinner dance like the old days..lol.

 

We're far from attempting to create cookie-cutter members. We were down to 126 full members when I was elected to the BOD post-recession. When I left last year we were at 220 fulls (still down from the boom years of over 300), but more importantly, we were able to get the maintenance budget back up to where it needed to be to keep the course pristine and still be profitable overall. Next will be some much needed capital improvement projects for the course.

 

I don't disagree that It's important for any existing club (or business) to be attractive to Millennials, but you can't do it at the expense of your existing base...especially when about 30% of your existing membership accounts for 75% of your revenue. For every person you make happy, you've got to be careful not to tick two others off. What we've found, contrary to your beliefs, is that those of the younger generation who get involved, tend to enjoy themselves and ultimately become spenders at the club. Those who don't get involved become "club hoppers"...chasing the latest young exec deal being offered across town.

 

You wouldn't believe how many new members I reached out to (most of whom had never belonged to a club previously) who had absolutely zero idea what a Men's Member-Guest even was, but once explained to them, ended up participating and having a blast. It's now sold-out in advance with a waiting list. Same goes for our spring inter-club matches and men's night out which we put together for the after work crowd one weekday evening per month that allows members to bring guests out for golf and a prime steak dinner for barely more than the price of the steak and a cart fee, no guest fee.

 

So tell me again how reaching out to new members to welcome them and explain all that the club has to offer is a bad thing. Several years of feedback tells us the opposite.

 

[Hack Daddy]

> @cardoustie said:

> As a 51 year old guy at a private club for the last 16 years I can tell you things have changed dramatically

> - less attendance at events, less interest in them overall (especially weekend stuff)

> - way WAY less drinking

> - way less hanging around the club for spurts before and after the round

> - less family dinners

> - the entrance fee has faded from a high of $75k to nearly nothing

> Now my place is more of a golf club. It doesn't have a pool or a gym. It does have a sauna and steam room and hot tub. We do have reciprocals where we can play 30 other courses for no charge.

> I love how I never need a tee time and like Dewey I love going to the range and sneaking out for a handful of holes at night on a cart by myself

> The Wed 2pm shotgun, up to 120 guys, and the Member Guest are the highlites of the year.

 

I wonder if the drinking decline has come about due to the exponential increase in dui/dwi enforcement. I drink way, WAY less than I did even 10 years ago after a round, because I'm worried about getting hit with one. The far reaching effects of a dui nowadays are way crazier than they were for a prior generation. I've seen peers get hulk smashed for even their first offence. For that reason, at least for me, limits my post round social time.

[dpb5031]

> @"Hack Daddy" said:

> > @cardoustie said:

> > As a 51 year old guy at a private club for the last 16 years I can tell you things have changed dramatically

> > - less attendance at events, less interest in them overall (especially weekend stuff)

> > - way WAY less drinking

> > - way less hanging around the club for spurts before and after the round

> > - less family dinners

> > - the entrance fee has faded from a high of $75k to nearly nothing

> > Now my place is more of a golf club. It doesn't have a pool or a gym. It does have a sauna and steam room and hot tub. We do have reciprocals where we can play 30 other courses for no charge.

> > I love how I never need a tee time and like Dewey I love going to the range and sneaking out for a handful of holes at night on a cart by myself

> > The Wed 2pm shotgun, up to 120 guys, and the Member Guest are the highlites of the year.

>

> I wonder if the drinking decline has come about due to the exponential increase in dui/dwi enforcement. I drink way, WAY less than I did even 10 years ago after a round, because I'm worried about getting hit with one. The far reaching effects of a dui nowadays are way crazier than they were for a prior generation. I've seen peers get hulk smashed for even their first offence. For that reason, at least for me, limits my post round social time.

 

Believe it or not, when smoking became outlawed in NJ, that had a massive affect on the drinking and hanging-out. We went from poker and gin games multiple afternoons and evenings that would last until the wee hours on the weekends to practically none, unless it's pre-planned poker tournament or casino night type deal. And it happened practically overnight. It was fun, but I really don't miss it. I never smoked, but my clothes would smell so bad my wife demanded I strip down in the garage before entering...lol!

[munichop]

As my handle notes I am a muni player. I rarely feel comfortable at private clubs and have turned down chances to play them when invited by golf friends. I have a golf budget of $250 a month for everything- green fees, balls, clubs etc. Even if I had the money to join a club the notion of it just does not fit my idea of golf. I am fortunate that in Phoenix I can play all year and hit nicer courses when the heat shows up- my casual group is playing tomorrow in 110 deg heat at 1:00 p.m. - for $20; 18 holes, cart and range balls. The same course is $100 during snow bird season. I am in 2 mens clubs both at muni courses- one for 50 and over. From what I have read in this thread it seems that clubs are being transformed by economic more than social realities. Many would rather fold than change. My 26 year old step son is the next gen golfer who is a potential member down the road. He likes Top Golf. Good luck getting him in the door...

[MtlJeff]

> @Caddykev said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > The reality, country club membership will always be out of reach for average Joe golfer. Everything about country club life costs more than public golf. Regardless of what some people want or think, private country clubs will remain because they cater to a certain population segment that can afford that life.

> >

> They will remain, especially the high end ones. However, if the millennial trend of not being golfers continues, and clubs don’t get some new blood in before they age out clubs will be shutting their doors and being developed in the next 20 to 30 years.

>

>

 

I think we keep looking at millenials like they are aliens sometimes. I don't know that they are that different from any other generation in a general sense. Greater access to technology, and being able to use that technology to grandstand about how great they are is certainly different....but we would have done those same things

 

Millenials don't play golf because 20-35yr olds don't play golf. Nothing to do with "millenials" and everything to do with these are just the ages people start families and have less time IMO

 

When millenials are 50, and have money and time....many of them will take up golf. A lot of things millenials scoff at now, they will become...just like every generation before them

[tom.lockhart]

> @MtlJeff said:

> > @Caddykev said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > The reality, country club membership will always be out of reach for average Joe golfer. Everything about country club life costs more than public golf. Regardless of what some people want or think, private country clubs will remain because they cater to a certain population segment that can afford that life.

> > >

> > They will remain, especially the high end ones. However, if the millennial trend of not being golfers continues, and clubs don’t get some new blood in before they age out clubs will be shutting their doors and being developed in the next 20 to 30 years.

> >

> >

>

> I think we keep looking at millenials like they are aliens sometimes. I don't know that they are that different from any other generation in a general sense. Greater access to technology, and being able to use that technology to grandstand about how great they are is certainly different....but we would have done those same things

>

> Millenials don't play golf because 20-35yr olds don't play golf. Nothing to do with "millenials" and everything to do with these are just the ages people start families and have less time IMO

>

> When millenials are 50, and have money and time....many of them will take up golf. A lot of things millenials scoff at now, they will become...just like every generation before them

 

I'm a millennial - I have played golf my entire life. I am a member at a pretty nice CC where the initiation and monthly dues are quite high. There are about 100 of us at this club who are all "millennial" (Under 40) (426 total members). I think it's all about where you are located.

I am located in the Seattle area, where tech money is stupid. We have Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Facebook..etc and most of the younger guys in the club work for these companies, or work in other sectors effected by the immense wealth in the area (real estate, financial..etc). I don't believe it's a millennial issue, but more a matter of financial resources. I'm sure clubs around booming metropolitan areas and tech hubs aren't hurting either (San Fran/LA/NY/Austin/Dallas/Denver..etc)

[MtlJeff]

> @"tom.lockhart" said:

> > @MtlJeff said:

> > > @Caddykev said:

> > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > The reality, country club membership will always be out of reach for average Joe golfer. Everything about country club life costs more than public golf. Regardless of what some people want or think, private country clubs will remain because they cater to a certain population segment that can afford that life.

> > > >

> > > They will remain, especially the high end ones. However, if the millennial trend of not being golfers continues, and clubs don’t get some new blood in before they age out clubs will be shutting their doors and being developed in the next 20 to 30 years.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I think we keep looking at millenials like they are aliens sometimes. I don't know that they are that different from any other generation in a general sense. Greater access to technology, and being able to use that technology to grandstand about how great they are is certainly different....but we would have done those same things

> >

> > Millenials don't play golf because 20-35yr olds don't play golf. Nothing to do with "millenials" and everything to do with these are just the ages people start families and have less time IMO

> >

> > When millenials are 50, and have money and time....many of them will take up golf. A lot of things millenials scoff at now, they will become...just like every generation before them

>

> I'm a millennial - I have played golf my entire life. I am a member at a pretty nice CC where the initiation and monthly dues are quite high. There are about 100 of us at this club who are all "millennial" (Under 40) (426 total members). I think it's all about where you are located.

> I am located in the Seattle area, where tech money is stupid. We have Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Facebook..etc and most of the younger guys in the club work for these companies, or work in other sectors effected by the immense wealth in the area (real estate, financial..etc). I don't believe it's a millennial issue, but more a matter of financial resources. I'm sure clubs around booming metropolitan areas and tech hubs aren't hurting either (San Fran/LA/NY/Austin/Dallas/Denver..etc)

 

I'm actually a quasi millenial myself (early 1980s, it's murky) and have played golf since I was 22. But in Montreal I would say the biggest challenge clubs have is getting 25-39yr olds. There are massive incentives to join clubs if you are in that age group. Sometimes it's 1/2 the cost or less

 

I agree it's regional and resources are very important. In fact that is I would argue the problem with most in the 25-39 range. Young families and not peaked out earnings yet. Less disposable income as well as time

 

Not to mention there aren't a ton of sports for 50yr olds to play. Or even 30yr olds. I stopped playing in flag football league's because of all the brawls.....golf is pretty appealing the older you get. I'm sure many young people will think that one day too, if they don't now

[rsh0308]

Agree w @MtlJeff.

I’m in the same age bracket and would say it’s not the fault of millennials but the age group itself lends itself to being more urban - after college most my friends moved into large cities. Downtowns. NYC. DC. Chicago. SF. Boston. Not suburbs.

Jobs, grad schools, etc are more plentiful in large urban areas for 20-somethings. When you live there, you don’t need a car. When you live in a high rise or a loft in the middle of a metro city, it’s a lot harder to get out to a club multiple times per week, thus the lack of interest. Many of my friends are just now moving into the burbs in their mid-30s after living the city life and finally settling down. It’s just now a financial and logistical possibility to join a club for these people.

[Mcgeeno]

I'm a millennial so I can comment a little from that POV. I grew up golfing and love the game. its my one hobby and passion so getting a membership as an adult was never in doubt.

 

I've noticed two things however that led to the decline of golf at our club from 400+ members when I was young to 130 or so now.

 

1) All the people my age do tons of other things. Golf just has gone to the wayside for many. Kids, Soccer, Camping, fishing, hiking, craft brewery tours, car shows, art exhibits, video games, concerts, travelling all over etc. Frisbee golf in my city has exploded in recent years. Its free. I can get some guys out a couple times a month but thats about it. So many other things to do every day that golf just doesnt make the cut for many my age.

 

2) I get along great with the 'veteran' old guard members at our club. I consider many of them good friends now. That being said it was very closed off and quite the clique when I joined. Took me a couple seasons to be welcomed into their money game on weekends, a few more seasons before I could go on their yearly golf trip. There hasnt been more than 1-2 new people really included into the old guard in the 6 years I've been at the club. From the outside it could look uninviting even though they are very nice guys. They get the same tee times every day, priority bookings, the best deals on equipment and clothing due to their relationships. They get a discount on membership due to age but our club has no discount for any younger people. No desire to bring in new blood at all.

 

Just a couple things I have noticed.

[GolfChannel]

> @Philomathesq said:

> > @GolfChannel said:

> > **Spend a day in a modern class, rote memorization is the quickest way to get fired as a teacher**, but please continue to lecture me with your gospel via colloquialism.

> >

> > I don’t understand why some are so proud of their ignorance. You quite literally have an entire civilizations knowledge at your fingertips if you only clicked the search button.

> >

> > I would start with “inferences” since you enjoy making them about my sentiments. I would then work my way into “contradictions” and then edit your posts accordingly.

>

> I'm going to counter your extreme generalization with my own. When I moved to Texas, we decided to give the local public schools a try because they are all ranked in the top 1% of public schools in Texas. For example, the average SAT score at the local high school is 1310, which is over the 90th percentile. You know what they teach there? Rote memorization of useless facts. When we first moved here, my son was in 2nd grade and was already able to do algebra. His teacher assigned him addition and subtraction with three digit numbers. I met with her and told her that he could do the work, but he needed to be more challenged. Her response to me was that the school district mandated that all kids must learn the same material and no deviations would be allowed. She actually got emotional and said she wished she could assign him extra homework, but that she would get fired if she deviated one iota from the prescribed curriculum. So, we immediately dis-enrolled our kids and put them into a private school that could accommodate them.

>

> The point, though, is that it is absolutely not true that modern classroom teachers get fired for teaching rote memorization. My wife is a former teacher (taught in MI) and my best friend's wife is a current teacher (in WA), and they both believe that the state of public education is horrible because of the inflexibility of the system and the focus on teaching to tests. So, maybe MI, WA, and TX are the exceptions to the rule, but I just can't believe that the way your school works is the norm.

>

 

No, your experience in these subject areas is accurate in the lower grades. In high school it isn’t allowed, but teachers are still essentially told what, how, and when they have to teach if it’s Math or English. This is why I said the educational system is failing this generation. It’s unfortunately holding them back in most cases because it’s still built on the factory model even though none of them will ever see the inside of a factory let alone work in one in their lifetimes.

[GolfChannel]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @"Hack Daddy" said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @GolfChannel said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @GolfChannel said, "Open the courses, charge whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard."

> > > > >

> > > > > Funny, most private clubs do this exactly. Dues and course quality determine who joins based on perceived value and affordability.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > In a market that allows it. Where you lived in NJ you basically had to join a club, whereas I almost had to in Charlotte. In a major city like Orlando with all the international traffic there is absolutely no necessity to join a club as everything a club offers I can get for almost none of the cost sans the round of golf. Most clubs in Orlando for that reason are semi-private.

> > > >

> > > > The question is whether the full private model works long term? Also, I added the question does that model promote access and growth of the game?

> > > >

> > > > No one has actually answered that they think private clubs are growing in terms of membership or whether they think that model will create more new golfers.

> > > >

> > > > I understand that just like NJ and Charlotte, in terms of experience I am an outlier as well in terms of access.

> > >

> > > You cannot get what a private club offers elsewhere at public tracks. You can get the golf.... You can get the dining and the bar.... But you absolutely are not replacing the comraderie of a private. The people make a club, not the course or restaurant. But as you do not seem to need that fellowship a club of not for you.

> > >

> > > Just because it's not for you does not mean it is a broken model. But it does seem clear that your generation does not in general put a very high value on that fellowship.

> >

> > It is a broken model. All I want is the golf, a meal, and a drink. Myself and everyone I know don't need all the other fluff of a club. It's like a fraternity - paying for friends.

> > Another thing is, as a highly educated Black man, in a white collar job, making over six figures - I STILL get "looks" when I demo a club. As GC said, the culture of the Club is going to be its demise.

>

> The golf clubs demise has been written about for over 50 years.

>

> You stated you just need "golf, a meal and a drink" and none of the other fluff. That's a golf club and they are readily available in most areas. Not all private golf clubs are the big huge country clubs many of you speak of.

> If the golf meal and drink are all you need then stay playing at publics. If you ever look for the comraderie of like minded folks then you'll want to join a golf club.

 

You do know just like a private club, some public golf clubs do all the same things in terms of course access, socializing, and camaraderie without the extra cost? So, everyone keeps bringing that up as if it’s a selling point when it really isn’t. Even then, I live in area where most of the private clubs aren’t really private, and the best courses in the area are public anyways. So, I don’t face the decisions many of you have to when it comes to having to find a consistent place to play.

 

That said, I don’t hide my biases whether founded or unfounded towards private clubs. I have an issue with the culture. Many, if not most, of the hurdles we have had to overcome to grow the game are a direct result of the hurdles put in place by private clubs and the toxic culture they let pervade through the game because we decided to build a closed game versus an open one in the US. I understand like anything it is never simply bad or good, but more than likely somewhere in the middle evidenced by all the glowing accounts of private clubs in this thread.

 

Okay, now I am going to catch up on the other posts. Thank you so much for your open, honest, and reasoned responses.

[BNGL]

> @GolfChannel said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @"Hack Daddy" said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @GolfChannel said:

> > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > @GolfChannel said, "Open the courses, charge whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Funny, most private clubs do this exactly. Dues and course quality determine who joins based on perceived value and affordability.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > In a market that allows it. Where you lived in NJ you basically had to join a club, whereas I almost had to in Charlotte. In a major city like Orlando with all the international traffic there is absolutely no necessity to join a club as everything a club offers I can get for almost none of the cost sans the round of golf. Most clubs in Orlando for that reason are semi-private.

> > > > >

> > > > > The question is whether the full private model works long term? Also, I added the question does that model promote access and growth of the game?

> > > > >

> > > > > No one has actually answered that they think private clubs are growing in terms of membership or whether they think that model will create more new golfers.

> > > > >

> > > > > I understand that just like NJ and Charlotte, in terms of experience I am an outlier as well in terms of access.

> > > >

> > > > You cannot get what a private club offers elsewhere at public tracks. You can get the golf.... You can get the dining and the bar.... But you absolutely are not replacing the comraderie of a private. The people make a club, not the course or restaurant. But as you do not seem to need that fellowship a club of not for you.

> > > >

> > > > Just because it's not for you does not mean it is a broken model. But it does seem clear that your generation does not in general put a very high value on that fellowship.

> > >

> > > It is a broken model. All I want is the golf, a meal, and a drink. Myself and everyone I know don't need all the other fluff of a club. It's like a fraternity - paying for friends.

> > > Another thing is, as a highly educated Black man, in a white collar job, making over six figures - I STILL get "looks" when I demo a club. As GC said, the culture of the Club is going to be its demise.

> >

> > The golf clubs demise has been written about for over 50 years.

> >

> > You stated you just need "golf, a meal and a drink" and none of the other fluff. That's a golf club and they are readily available in most areas. Not all private golf clubs are the big huge country clubs many of you speak of.

> > If the golf meal and drink are all you need then stay playing at publics. If you ever look for the comraderie of like minded folks then you'll want to join a golf club.

>

> You do know just like a private club, some public golf clubs do all the same things in terms of course access, socializing, and camaraderie without the extra cost? So, everyone keeps bringing that up as if it’s a selling point when it really isn’t. Even then, I live in area where most of the private clubs aren’t really private, and the best courses in the area are public anyways. So, I don’t face the decisions many of you have to when it comes to having to find a consistent place to play.

>

> That said, I don’t hide my biases whether founded or unfounded towards private clubs. I have an issue with the culture. Many, if not most, of the hurdles we have had to overcome to grow the game are a direct result of the hurdles put in place by private clubs and the toxic culture they let pervade through the game because we decided to build a closed game versus an open one in the US. I understand like anything it is never simply bad or good, but more than likely somewhere in the middle evidenced by all the glowing accounts of private clubs in this thread.

>

> Okay, now I am going to catch up on the other posts. Thank you so much for your open, honest, and reasoned responses.

 

Just curious what you think the best course in Orlando is?

[Hack Daddy]

> @GolfChannel said:

> > @Philomathesq said:

> > > @GolfChannel said:

> > > **Spend a day in a modern class, rote memorization is the quickest way to get fired as a teacher**, but please continue to lecture me with your gospel via colloquialism.

> > >

> > > I don’t understand why some are so proud of their ignorance. You quite literally have an entire civilizations knowledge at your fingertips if you only clicked the search button.

> > >

> > > I would start with “inferences” since you enjoy making them about my sentiments. I would then work my way into “contradictions” and then edit your posts accordingly.

> >

> > I'm going to counter your extreme generalization with my own. When I moved to Texas, we decided to give the local public schools a try because they are all ranked in the top 1% of public schools in Texas. For example, the average SAT score at the local high school is 1310, which is over the 90th percentile. You know what they teach there? Rote memorization of useless facts. When we first moved here, my son was in 2nd grade and was already able to do algebra. His teacher assigned him addition and subtraction with three digit numbers. I met with her and told her that he could do the work, but he needed to be more challenged. Her response to me was that the school district mandated that all kids must learn the same material and no deviations would be allowed. She actually got emotional and said she wished she could assign him extra homework, but that she would get fired if she deviated one iota from the prescribed curriculum. So, we immediately dis-enrolled our kids and put them into a private school that could accommodate them.

> >

> > The point, though, is that it is absolutely not true that modern classroom teachers get fired for teaching rote memorization. My wife is a former teacher (taught in MI) and my best friend's wife is a current teacher (in WA), and they both believe that the state of public education is horrible because of the inflexibility of the system and the focus on teaching to tests. So, maybe MI, WA, and TX are the exceptions to the rule, but I just can't believe that the way your school works is the norm.

> >

>

> No, your experience in these subject areas is accurate in the lower grades. In high school it isn’t allowed, but teachers are still essentially told what, how, and when they have to teach if it’s Math or English. This is why I said the educational system is failing this generation. It’s unfortunately holding them back in most cases because it’s still built on the factory model even though none of them will ever see the inside of a factory let alone work in one in their lifetimes.

 

If his son was at an algebraic level of mathematical achievement, I'm a shocked the kid wasn't singled out for behavioral issues or failing the simplistic math they were assigned for curriculum, out of spite. Kids with that level of knowledge have an extremely difficult time functioning in a gen ed classroom, with age/grade appropriate subject matter.