"Carts due in by 8pm!"

[bcjim]

But it's likely few carts out at that point.  The whole fleet isn't out after 8. So what if they are there an hour after sunset? Lots of jobs are performed after sunset.  Have a couple of guys there until 10. Big deal. 

 

 

[Hot Rod 71]

8 hours ago, david.c.w said:

Not advocating for playing in the dark.  Advocating for playing while it is light.  Summer sunset here is after 9:00.

Fair point.
 

I suppose it really boils down to the right of any business to set its own hours. We don’t have to like it, but we should respect it. 

[Gsea]

9 hours ago, bcjim said:

But it's likely few carts out at that point.  The whole fleet isn't out after 8. So what if they are there an hour after sunset? Lots of jobs are performed after sunset.  Have a couple of guys there until 10. Big deal. 

 

 

or just follow the rules, big deal

[dcmidnight]

9 hours ago, bcjim said:

But it's likely few carts out at that point.  The whole fleet isn't out after 8. So what if they are there an hour after sunset? Lots of jobs are performed after sunset.  Have a couple of guys there until 10. Big deal. 

 

It is a big deal.

 

Again this is like walking into a restaurant and saying hey, have a couple guys stay an hour late *I'm* hungry.

[bcjim]

I'm not suggesting people demand an exception to policy. I'm suggesting it's a bad policy.

[IndyArcher]

9 hours ago, bcjim said:

But it's likely few carts out at that point.  The whole fleet isn't out after 8. So what if they are there an hour after sunset? Lots of jobs are performed after sunset.  Have a couple of guys there until 10. Big deal. 

 

 

 

It's odd to me that you would sense the right to determine what is or isn't a 'big deal' to a business owner. I have to conclude that you've never owned or managed a small business. I have. We had to cut back hours for my archery shop. Some people hated it. It made no sense from a business perspective to keep lights on and staff in place after 6pm during the week (usually me +1) when we sometimes would only have one or two people come to shoot. If we raised prices, people wouldn't come. If I stayed open at current pricing, I'm losing money, and I'm losing time with my school-aged children. It was a no-brainer for me, though I was bothered that it meant I couldn't offer a service that was valued by a handful of people. 

 

If I owned the golf business, had made my cost and business analyses, and had people demanding that we staff the place later so that people could keep carts out until dark, then I'd likely have to say, "Okay, no longer do we have a discounted twilight rate. Now our twilight rate just went up 25% ABOVE the standard rate in order to cover the costs of keeping the carts out later."  But then we likely just killed the demand and hurt our reputation. Hard to see a win here if the business model doesn't support it. 

 

Up until COVID, a huge number of courses closed in northern Indiana over the previous 10 years or so. Golf courses typically operate on very thin margins. Owners and management teams have to make decisions that are in the best interest of both the business and themselves personally if it is a family business. I don't know of ANY business that can keep its entire customer base happy. In this day and age, the simple fact is, the customer is NOT always right. 

[CaseyC]

20 minutes ago, bcjim said:

I'm not suggesting people demand an exception to policy. I'm suggesting it's a bad policy.

 

Have you asked the manager of the club why they have this policy?

[Bad9]

9 minutes ago, IndyArcher said:

In this day and age, the simple fact is, the customer is NOT always right. 

 

I am not and never have been involved in the running of any business of any size. Strictly as a consumer I will say that "the customer is always right" is an idiotic way to expect the vast majority of businesses to operate and is a blight on our society.

[Greenie]

13 hours ago, Hot Rod 71 said:

The lights don’t go out at most restaurants at closing time. Imagine if a restaurant closed at 9:00pm and the lights went out at that time. How easy would it be to finish your meal and drinks in the dark? 
 

I will state again, as it has been said ad nauseam, playing golf in the dark can be dangerous and poses a liability for the golf course. Just imagine driving a cart into a bunker or water hazard because the driver can’t see where he’s going. How liable would the golf course become?

 

 

There are many reasons why a golf course has a certain time that carts are required to be returned.  I know a few courses that have strict times carts need to be returned because of accidents that happened due to darkness on their course. One course had both twosomes in a foursome drive their carts into a pond on 18 at one course. I recently played at another course that now has a posted return time for carts. When talking to the staffer he said the ranger had a group refuse to come in when the ranger told them it was getting dark and a twosome in the group rode down a ravine a few holes later. 

 

If you are someone that wants to go out late then abide by the course's policy or don't play. I personally allow 5 hrs. before the return cart time or I won't play. That is my buffer. I play a lot quicker than that but I can't expect everyone out there to play fast. I want to enjoy my round. I don't expect to play through groups on the course. I don't want to feel I may not get finished. I don't want to get worked up over a slow group holding me up and me thinking I am not going to get done by dark. Allowing myself more than enough time to play my round before dark is more relaxing to me then to be fighting against getting done by carts return time.

[dcmidnight]

58 minutes ago, Bad9 said:

 

I am not and never have been involved in the running of any business of any size. Strictly as a consumer I will say that "the customer is always right" is an idiotic way to expect the vast majority of businesses to operate and is a blight on our society.

 

Amen.

 

[Naptime]

On 4/12/2023 at 9:13 AM, david.c.w said:

 

I agree that if the course has a policy of a cart return time, players need to abide and respect the rule.

 

What I don't understand is why courses have this policy.  If I get seated late at a restaurant, the waiter is not going to pick up my plate with 4 bites left because he wants to go home.  Golf courses tend to forget that are in a service industry. 

 

Keeping with dining theme, they may refuse to serve after the kitchen staff is doing cleanup/prep for next day.  A lot of work to do after the carts come in.  Cleaning, fueling, charging etc.

[mshills]

21 hours ago, dcmidnight said:

It is a big deal.

 

Again this is like walking into a restaurant and saying hey, have a couple guys stay an hour late *I'm* hungry.

Correct!

 

Late tee time and pretty sure you won’t finish before the cart has to be back?  Play faster, or turn the cart in after 9 and walk the back. 

[Barnacle]

On 4/10/2023 at 2:44 PM, jerebear21 said:

you’re the one that’s assuming. Majority of cart golfers are the reason why golf rounds take so long. So respectfully disagree. Most golfers taking a cart out at 4pm shouldn’t expect to finish in a timely manner. If you’re in such a rush go play pickle ball or something. 

Hey My bad bro, I thought I was debating a rational individual. Obviously I was mistaken. 

[Barnacle]

4 hours ago, mshills said:

Correct!

 

Late tee time and pretty sure you won’t finish before the cart has to be back?  Play faster, or turn the cart in after 9 and walk the back. 

Don't sell carts after a certain time then. Carts in by 8, no more cart sales after 3:30. Trying to get that extra $15 charge without the full $15 dollars worth of cart usage could legally be construed as unethical business practices. Not sure why most of you don't understand that. The greens fees are discounted in the afternoon, not the cart fees. 

[jerebear21]

10 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

Hey My bad bro, I thought I was debating a rational individual. Obviously I was mistaken. 

I ain’t your bro brah. 

[Naptime]

While it may be annoying, not sure why it would be unethical if the policy is posted.  

[Barnacle]

5 minutes ago, Naptime said:

While it may be annoying, not sure why it would be unethical if the policy is posted.  

Because you are taking an equal amount of money for a lesser service with a posted rate. Most courses have a base rate and then an added fee for the cart. The rate often changes based on the time of day. The cart fee doesn’t. 
 

to use everyone’s idiotic restaurant analogy, it would be like one person walking in 30 minutes before close and ordering a large of something on the menu and then you walking in 29 minutes and ordering the same thing only for the cashier to tell you that for the same price you only get a medium.

 

if your rates are posted publicly you have to offer the same service to everyone who is willing to pay the rate. The ethical practice would be to stop offering the service altogether at a certain time except in the case of ADA. 

[Naptime]

Time matters.  If someone buys a fixed price day pass at an amusement part but shows up at 11, they don't keep the rides open 3 hrs late to accommodate them.

[CaseyC]

1 hour ago, Barnacle said:

....Trying to get that extra $15 charge without the full $15 dollars worth of cart usage could legally be construed as unethical business practices. ...

 

Have you talked to the general manager of the course to get his reasoning?

[CaseyC]

47 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

 

to use everyone’s idiotic restaurant analogy, it would be like one person walking in 30 minutes before close and ordering a large of something on the menu and then you walking in 29 minutes and ordering the same thing only for the cashier to tell you that for the same price you only get a medium.

 

 

 

Actually your argument is that the large of something should cost less because you have less time to eat it in the restaurant...  🙄

[Barnacle]

6 hours ago, Naptime said:

Time matters.  If someone buys a fixed price day pass at an amusement part but shows up at 11, they don't keep the rides open 3 hrs late to accommodate them.

That would be an argument if we were talking about the course closing, but in the OP's case the course is still open but carts are no told to be in early. Poor analogy. 

5 hours ago, CaseyC said:

 

Have you talked to the general manager of the course to get his reasoning?

Why would I? I'm not OP. 

5 hours ago, CaseyC said:

 

Actually your argument is that the large of something should cost less because you have less time to eat it in the restaurant...  🙄

No, it isn't. Don't try to change my argument to fit your narrative. My argument is that if you are charging the same price for a thing then the thing should be the same for everyone. Not sure why you are having a hard time understanding that concept. 

[CaseyC]

1 hour ago, Barnacle said:

 

No, it isn't. Don't try to change my argument to fit your narrative. My argument is that if you are charging the same price for a thing then the thing should be the same for everyone. Not sure why you are having a hard time understanding that concept. 

 

Your argument is poor. 

 

Restaurants charge the same for take out as eat in.  Should they charge less for take out? or more for eat in?

 

 

What any business "should" do is what has been found is best for the business.  Will that please everyone?  no.  As has been pointed out, the customer is not always right.

 

One could argue they could charge more to offset the costs of extra overhead and employee costs for just a few people who want to keep the carts out longer.

 

When a round is shortened by weather, I don't know any course that pro-rates the rain checks by exactly how many holes have been played.  Got 16 holes in before thunder and rain, tough...

 

Should the course charge cart rates by how many holes are eventually played?  Should the person who get's 16 holes in pay the same as the person who only gets 15 1/2?

Edited April 14, 2023 by CaseyC

[Hot Rod 71]

8 hours ago, Barnacle said:

Don't sell carts after a certain time then. Carts in by 8, no more cart sales after 3:30. Trying to get that extra $15 charge without the full $15 dollars worth of cart usage could legally be construed as unethical business practices. Not sure why most of you don't understand that. The greens fees are discounted in the afternoon, not the cart fees. 

So are you saying the course you play does not have a twilight rate? The rate for 18 holes is the same amount from open to close?

[stryper]

On 4/13/2023 at 9:32 AM, Greenie said:

 

 

There are many reasons why a golf course has a certain time that carts are required to be returned.  I know a few courses that have strict times carts need to be returned because of accidents that happened due to darkness on their course. One course had both twosomes in a foursome drive their carts into a pond on 18 at one course. I recently played at another course that now has a posted return time for carts. When talking to the staffer he said the ranger had a group refuse to come in when the ranger told them it was getting dark and a twosome in the group rode down a ravine a few holes later. 

 

If you are someone that wants to go out late then abide by the course's policy or don't play. I personally allow 5 hrs. before the return cart time or I won't play. That is my buffer. I play a lot quicker than that but I can't expect everyone out there to play fast. I want to enjoy my round. I don't expect to play through groups on the course. I don't want to feel I may not get finished. I don't want to get worked up over a slow group holding me up and me thinking I am not going to get done by dark. Allowing myself more than enough time to play my round before dark is more relaxing to me then to be fighting against getting done by carts return time.

No doubt some of these numbn*ts sued the courses as well.  
 

At my course, there are some places where you literally can’t see anything on a moonless night.  Winding cart paths with steep inclines around ponds and through wooded areas make it simply too dangerous to send your one cart kid out on a rescue mission to find the missing carts. 
 

 

[PedronNiall]

80% of your revenue comes from 20% of your business. Not always exact, but pretty close to the reality. It's doubtful the people causing an issue around whatever the cart & course policies are happen to be in that 20%. I never see the regular twilight groups causing problems; they tend to push things as late as they can, which at some courses means they're putting out until the last sliver of light, but they'll call it before 9/18 if they need to. The course attendants are often there until after 9, but I've never seen them having to chase down regulars who aren't respecting requirements. It's 99% of the time others they're having to take carts out to get, even after sending messages on the display that it's time to come in.

 

What will be funny is one day in the future when carts can be automated to return to the barn after a warning has gone off. Have fun hoofing it back in to find your bag sitting by the clubhouse and the staff long gone if liability allows it.

 

As others said, it's no different than the expectations at a restaurant: you're able to partake until X time. If you choose to dine right before X time it's on you if you don't finish.

 

I'm not surprised the person arguing hardest against courses expecting adherence to their posted policies has a name that's for all intents and purposes a parasite or blight on the thing it clings to.

[CarlLipbaum]

Harbor Town Golf Links should have kicked Fitzpatrick and Spieth off the course after the first playoff hole so the staff had time to close up shop before dark.  

[caniac6]

1 hour ago, CarlLipbaum said:

Harbor Town Golf Links should have kicked Fitzpatrick and Spieth off the course after the first playoff hole so the staff had time to close up shop before dark.  

They were walking. Plus, I’m pretty sure they were done before 8.

Edited April 18, 2023 by caniac6

[deadsolid...shank]

I’m working tonight. I just sent two out walking, told them to play as many as they wanted til as late as they wanted. 
 

The riders, 7:40 cart time for them. We would prefer they not drive the cart into the lake or a tree because they can’t see. 

[berd103]

Totally agree it is all up to the business and what they want to do, regardless if it is the best for profit or not.

 

DANG tho, ya'll have some crazy course rules out there haha

[Shankyouverymuch]

I just got back from Gatlinburg, stayed at Bent Creek Golf Village.  We checked in at 2:30.  Got unpacked, had a beer and headed down to the clubhouse at 3:55 to play 9 holes.  This is after the time change so it does not get dark until nearly 8:00.  We were told that they were on winter hours and we could not play either walking or cart.  We were not happy.  Never had that happen in 14 years of staying there.