"Carts due in by 8pm!"

[ClevelandKyle]

> @cvhookem63 said:

> > @Roody said:

> > Why should the pro shop staff have to wait around all evening for you to bring the cart in whenever you please?

>

> Most golf courses are open until it is too dark to play anymore. There is somebody going to be there to pick up all of the pins after play is done anyway. It is not that difficult to take a couple of carts to the cart barn as part of those final tasks. This is never an issue at my home course when I am trying to squeeze in a quick 18 that finishes up as it is getting dark. I do try to walk when I have time though.

 

Agreed. I play a local course where I've gotten to know the cart guy really well. There are days where I've gotten off work at 6 and played until dark with a buddy of mine and the cart guy will always stay and wait until we're finished with as many holes as we can get in. We usually tip him about $10 for the favor and he really doesn't mind doing the favor because he knows us. My advice is that if you're going to play a late round, know the course rules and try to get to know some of the staff well at your local courses, that way, you can reap some favors from them.

[deadsolid...shank]

> @gioguy21 said:

> last time i checked -- stores that have stated hours don't close early b/c 'they want to get home to their families'; golf courses don't have hours except for 'sun up/down' most of the time. these jobs are usually not held by people making a ton of money --- you stay till the job is done. if i paid for a round of golf where i needed a cart, and they told me i had to return it before the round was done -- i will finish my round and return the cart; even if it's past 8pm. sorry kid, wash it and then go home.

 

Have to say, really didn’t expect that type of attitude from you.

 

[shanx]

My local course charges $25.00, with cart, for "twilight" golf. During the week, twilight starts at 3:00pm, weekends 4:00pm. They have increased their amount of play significantly as a result. I have rolled up to the first tee at 4:00 a few Sundays, got most of the 18 in before it was dark.

 

I was talking to the starter at this course last night (got 16 holes in before it got dark), he said they will "leave the lights on" as long as people are golfing.

 

 

[gioguy21]

> @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > @gioguy21 said:

> > last time i checked -- stores that have stated hours don't close early b/c 'they want to get home to their families'; golf courses don't have hours except for 'sun up/down' most of the time. these jobs are usually not held by people making a ton of money --- you stay till the job is done. if i paid for a round of golf where i needed a cart, and they told me i had to return it before the round was done -- i will finish my round and return the cart; even if it's past 8pm. sorry kid, wash it and then go home.

>

> Have to say, really didn’t expect that type of attitude from you.

>

 

lol surely didn't mean attitude -- but hear me out. i coach a kid who is a cart barn guy at a course near me. it's a resort course however they have an island that 2/3 of the course is actually on, and the clubhouse is on the 'mainland'. there are TONS of carts out on any given day as there are 3 nine's.

 

he and i have had long conversations about this - the course USED to have a rule about getting the carts in at a given time. the cart barn kids found they were getting less in tips b/c guys weren't happy they had to return the carts and would just drop the carts off and either run back out on the course or they would just take their clubs to the car.

 

further, they said they actually got more money b/c as an hourly employee -- staying just that hour or two later a few times a week goes a long way.

 

no attitude intended -- sorry about that.

[North Butte]

If the cart wranglers are getting paid more then it's costing the course more.

 

Which circles back to the original question of why a course would require carts in by a certain time. Like a thousand other details about running a business, every little thing has a cost to the business as well as a (potential) benefit to the customers. Decisions have to be made and the decision can't always be, "Do whatever even one customer might want, no matter the cost".

[gioguy21]

> @"North Butte" said:

> If the cart wranglers are getting paid more then it's costing the course more.

>

> Which circles back to the original question of why a course would require carts in by a certain time. Like a thousand other details about running a business, every little thing has a cost to the business as well as a (potential) benefit to the customers. Decisions have to be made and the decision can't always be, "Do whatever even one customer might want, no matter the cost".

 

...if a course can't spare $28 bucks for 2 kids for an extra hour (assuming $14/hr) a couple times a week -- that course has SERIOUS issues.

[North Butte]

Most golf courses in my area do indeed have serious financial issues. A large portion of them are going bankrupt, closing all together or hanging on by a thread.

 

An average of one course within a hour’s drive of me has closed per year since 2007. And the place I learned to play golf, which back in the 90’s had a full 27-hole tee sheet every Sat/Sun this time of year, has sold off nine holes and can barely afford to keep the grass mowed on the remaining 18.

 

Running a business seems simple to anyone who doesn’t run a business.

[smashdn]

> @gioguy21 said:

> ...if a course can't spare $28 bucks for 2 kids for an extra hour (assuming $14/hr) a couple times a week -- that course has SERIOUS issues.

You know it is more than that right? Taxes, etc.

 

Got to think there is some liability involved too. Would you want your 16 or 17yo kid having to deal with Dr. Jones and Mr. Smith when they roll in at 20 past dark snookered? IMO you just put them in a really bad spot. Should they let them drive themselves home? Offer to drive them home? What if those guys get belligerent and there is no adult there to diffuse the situation?

 

[gioguy21]

> @smashdn said:

> > @gioguy21 said:

> > ...if a course can't spare $28 bucks for 2 kids for an extra hour (assuming $14/hr) a couple times a week -- that course has SERIOUS issues.

> You know it is more than that right? Taxes, etc.

>

> Got to think there is some liability involved too. Would you want your 16 or 17yo kid having to deal with Dr. Jones and Mr. Smith when they roll in at 20 past dark snookered? IMO you just put them in a really bad spot. Should they let them drive themselves home? Offer to drive them home? What if those guys get belligerent and there is no adult there to diffuse the situation?

>

 

seriously it's been done for how many years and now, in 2019 we're being sensitive to this? gimmie a break man. you're gonna throw in taxes? on 2 hours worth of work for less than $15/hr -- that the KID pays? there's no health insurance so don't try to throw that out there too.

 

as for the snookered -- you really think they don't deal with drunk idiots throughout the day -- only the last few? if they're drunk that's on them -- not for a kid to decide...they're there to work and then head home. the end. this ain't that hard.

[gioguy21]

> @"North Butte" said:

> Most golf courses in my area do indeed have serious financial issues. A large portion of them are going bankrupt, closing all together or hanging on by a thread.

>

> An average of one course within a hour’s drive of me has closed per year since 2007. And the place I learned to play golf, which back in the 90’s had a full 27-hole tee sheet every Sat/Sun this time of year, has sold off nine holes and can barely afford to keep the grass mowed on the remaining 18.

>

> Running a business seems simple to anyone who doesn’t run a business.

 

while i can appreciate and understand businesses going under - let's not get this confused; no course is going bankrupt b/c the kids are staying an hour longer. they're going under b/c of other things, more often than not it's related to either maintenance, food/beverage or overall lack of demand for any of a billion reasons.

 

 

[North Butte]

You want someone there an extra couple hours every day in case you might decide to keep a cart out past dark.

 

Someone else wants the bar open after the course closes because they might want to have a couple beers.

 

Someone else wants new range balls because they went to the range once and found some crummy ones.

 

Another guy wants to be able to play at 6:30am instead of waiting for the course to open at 7:00.

 

And so forth and so on. Each of those people think, "It couldn't cost them all that much to do [fill in the blank]". Surely you can see that none of these decisions happen in isolation?

[gioguy21]

> @"North Butte" said:

> You want someone there an extra couple hours every day in case you might decide to keep a cart out past dark.

>

> Someone else wants the bar open after the course closes because they might want to have a couple beers.

>

> Someone else wants new range balls because they went to the range once and found some crummy ones.

>

> Another guy wants to be able to play at 6:30am instead of waiting for the course to open at 7:00.

>

> And so forth and so on. Each of those people think, "It couldn't cost them all that much to do [fill in the blank]". Surely you can see that none of these decisions happen in isolation?

 

the bar is a service; closes whenever you set, that's not a big deal and is common place.

range ball purchases are at the discretion of whoever manages or oversees the facilities costs

setting an OPENING time is no big deal since you can justify the fact that the mowers are out before you open.

 

perhaps you should look at it this way.

 

you buy tickets to a baseball game in the city, and it's not easy to get to. you pay to park your car in the lot that is attached to the stadium; and there's a sign that reads 'lot will be closed at 8:30pm, no exceptions' --- and you KNOW that a game starting at 7pm will likely go past 8pm. you would have to leave the game somewhere in the 4-5 inning.

 

What are the odds you don't go to the game b/c of the parking? at what point do you look for other options to park...or you decide that it's just not worth your time b/c the other means are not palatable to you?

 

the issues YOU are describing are those costs contained within the ballpark; food, practice facilities, etc.

 

 

 

 

[gioguy21]

hey, after all that, fact is -- i walk. i'm outta this convo.

[North Butte]

Well I certainly would not park in a parking lot that closes an hour before the game is over.

 

Nor would I rent a cart from a golf course which wants it turned in before my round is over (not that I'd be renting a cart in the first place).

 

By all means, you should not feel forced to go pay a green fee and cart fee at a course which requires you to turn in your cart before you're good and ready. Go elsewhere. For my part, there are thousands of golf courses in the world that I'd never consider playing because they won't let me walk. Obviously, they can stay in business without my playing there so good on 'em.

[cxx]

Some courses close because they are no longer viable. They can't be saved. Most of the culling of courses happened a while ago. Where are you?

[smashdn]

> @gioguy21 said:

> as for the snookered -- you really think they don't deal with drunk idiots throughout the day -- only the last few? if they're drunk that's on them -- not for a kid to decide...they're there to work and then head home. the end. this ain't that hard.

 

Tiger got involved in a lawsuit when a guy at his restaurant was over-served. You don't have to be in the wrong to be taken to court. Drunk idiots during the day can be handled by a manager or assistant manager. If it is just "two kids" left to put the carts away that is a different set of circumstances. I could see where there is liability for the course. All I said. Just something that should be taken into consideration. It also puts the kids in a bad spot. As an employer I wouldn't want to put anyone in a situation like that.

 

 

I think there is a big distinction between what gets done at a course at a private club and a public facility, especially a municipal ran facility. Around here they just stop issuing carts at a certain time. You want to play after that, you walk. The actual pro-shop at one course closes around 6:00. Can't get range balls or buy a round after that time.

 

 

[deadsolid...shank]

> @gioguy21 said:

> > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > last time i checked -- stores that have stated hours don't close early b/c 'they want to get home to their families'; golf courses don't have hours except for 'sun up/down' most of the time. these jobs are usually not held by people making a ton of money --- you stay till the job is done. if i paid for a round of golf where i needed a cart, and they told me i had to return it before the round was done -- i will finish my round and return the cart; even if it's past 8pm. sorry kid, wash it and then go home.

> >

> > Have to say, really didn’t expect that type of attitude from you.

> >

>

> lol surely didn't mean attitude -- but hear me out. i coach a kid who is a cart barn guy at a course near me. it's a resort course however they have an island that 2/3 of the course is actually on, and the clubhouse is on the 'mainland'. there are TONS of carts out on any given day as there are 3 nine's.

>

> he and i have had long conversations about this - the course USED to have a rule about getting the carts in at a given time. the cart barn kids found they were getting less in tips b/c guys weren't happy they had to return the carts and would just drop the carts off and either run back out on the course or they would just take their clubs to the car.

>

> further, they said they actually got more money b/c as an hourly employee -- staying just that hour or two later a few times a week goes a long way.

>

> no attitude intended -- sorry about that.

 

No worries Gio.

 

And you shouldn’t leave the conversation, your points are as valid (even though different on this) than anyone else’s.

 

I don’t belive it’s necessarily the extra $14 or $28 bucks they have to pay (heck, our cart guys are volunteers) that is the issue. It’s the one time, and it only takes once, that someone does something really stupid with the cart because it’s dark out.

 

Setting aside the initial cost of the cart itself, the possibilities of what else could ensue are endless. In our litigious society, the course has to take every precaution to protect itself.

 

[gioguy21]

> > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > @gioguy21 said:

> > > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > last time i checked -- stores that have stated hours don't close early b/c 'they want to get home to their families'; golf courses don't have hours except for 'sun up/down' most of the time. these jobs are usually not held by people making a ton of money --- you stay till the job is done. if i paid for a round of golf where i needed a cart, and they told me i had to return it before the round was done -- i will finish my round and return the cart; even if it's past 8pm. sorry kid, wash it and then go home.

> > >

> > > Have to say, really didn’t expect that type of attitude from you.

> > >

> >

> > lol surely didn't mean attitude -- but hear me out. i coach a kid who is a cart barn guy at a course near me. it's a resort course however they have an island that 2/3 of the course is actually on, and the clubhouse is on the 'mainland'. there are TONS of carts out on any given day as there are 3 nine's.

> >

> > he and i have had long conversations about this - the course USED to have a rule about getting the carts in at a given time. the cart barn kids found they were getting less in tips b/c guys weren't happy they had to return the carts and would just drop the carts off and either run back out on the course or they would just take their clubs to the car.

> >

> > further, they said they actually got more money b/c as an hourly employee -- staying just that hour or two later a few times a week goes a long way.

> >

> > no attitude intended -- sorry about that.

>

> No worries Gio.

>

> And you shouldn’t leave the conversation, your points are as valid (even though different on this) than anyone else’s.

>

> I don’t belive it’s necessarily the extra $14 or $28 bucks they have to pay (heck, our cart guys are volunteers) that is the issue. It’s the one time, and it only takes once, that someone does something really stupid with the cart because it’s dark out.

>

> Setting aside the initial cost of the cart itself, the possibilities of what else could ensue are endless. In our litigious society, the course has to take every precaution to protect itself.

>

 

i think the stupid cart issues are remedied with the cart agreements with regards to liabilities, insurance, etc.

 

we watched a pair of guys (middle of the day mind you) drive a cart into a water runoff gully -- and snapped the front axle. they paid for a new cart.

[hahanice]

No one is saying employees have to wait around unpaid or that these courses have to change or we will physically harm the owners. We're saying it seems like a terrible business practice.

 

Chick fila has every right not to be open on Sundays, but they are surely missing out on major revenue and for that reason will never be King in the fast food industry. They can survive that but I bet if some other restaurants tried that they wouldn't be able to survive.

Sure you can say, how dare you make employees come in on a Sunday when there is church and football, just like you are saying how dare we keep the course staff there until dark. It's simply a management decision in which staff who wants to work these hours needs to be hired.

 

I'm all for doing whatever you can to make a customer happy. Happy customers return, and review. Returning customers keep you alive and customers who are willing to give positive reviews (in this digital age we live in) take you to the next level.

 

This also isn't a thread saying "courses should let me bring the cart back at midnight after I've taken it to Jimmy John's and back" all we're saying is if it's still very light out, you wanting your carts back is just you wanting to close up your course during prime playing hours. That's like saying Walmart closing at 6 wouldn't be devastating to their business model

[deadsolid...shank]

> @hahanice said:

> No one is saying employees have to wait around unpaid or that these courses have to change or we will physically harm the owners. We're saying it seems like a terrible business practice.

>

> Chick fila has every right not to be open on Sundays, but they are surely missing out on major revenue and for that reason will never be King in the fast food industry. They can survive that but I bet if some other restaurants tried that they wouldn't be able to survive.

> Sure you can say, how dare you make employees come in on a Sunday when there is church and football, just like you are saying how dare we keep the course staff there until dark. It's simply a management decision in which staff who wants to work these hours needs to be hired.

>

> I'm all for doing whatever you can to make a customer happy. Happy customers return, and review. Returning customers keep you alive and customers who are willing to give positive reviews (in this digital age we live in) take you to the next level.

>

> This also isn't a thread saying "courses should let me bring the cart back at midnight after I've taken it to Jimmy John's and back" all we're saying is if it's still very light out, you wanting your carts back is just you wanting to close up your course during prime playing hours. That's like saying Walmart closing at 6 wouldn't be devastating to their business model

 

I do t think anyone (or very few) are advocating for the carts to be in during true playing hours. We might be talking 10-15 minutes of playing time, maybe.

 

The reason we tell people they have to be 10-15 minutes before it is truly too dark to play is because that allows time for me to send my rangers out to round up the inevitable one or two groups who always push the limit and stay out til you really can’t see. And every night there is one of those groups. Every night.

 

 

[Hot Rod 71]

I've worked at a course for the last 12 years; the first three as a cart guy, the past 9 as an evening pro shop manager. We have a "carts must be returned by___" policy, which is usually the same time as sunset, which allows a 15 minute buffer until its really too dark to see. We post a sign on the front door and at the counter for all to see. When a player comes in at 5:00 and wants to play 18 when the cart sign reads "carts must be returned by 8:00", he is then deciding to agree to this and affirms his agreement when he pays. If he doesn't want to return the cart by 8:00 then he has a decision to make - play 9 holes, play as many as he can before 8:00, or go elsewhere.

 

There have been times when players stay out an extra 10 minutes to finish their round and as long as there is some daylight left I don't usually mind. But there have been times (too many to count) when players completely ignore the posted cart return rule and we have to send someone out to track them down 30 minutes or more past the required return time. Its darker than dark and you can barely see where you're driving the cart, but they will stay out there. Then they will argue about coming is saying things like "closing the course at dark is just stupid". I've had players threaten cart staff who tell them they have to quit.

 

I understand some folks just want to come out and play some golf after a long day at a 40+ hour a week job, and I want to accommodate them as best I can. Unfortunately, some people will push and push to get what they want, because the world revolves around them. Try going to the mall on a Sunday evening at 4:00 when it closes at 5:00 and expect them to stay open as long as you want them to because you only get to shop one or two days a week. Then refuse to leave, and then get belligerent because they won't stay open longer or change their hours just for you because you think closing at 5:00 is just stupid. Refuse to leave after they close - you'll likely be removed by the local police. Try arguing with them.

[IndyArcher]

> @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> The “customer is always right” is an outdated, and outrageously wrong statement.

>

It's not that the statement is outrageously wrong; it's simply misunderstood. It's a truism intended to guide principles. It was not intended to be, and never PRACTICED as a universal truth. The problem we seem to be facing in our current culture is that everyone is so demanding of what they want, and if they don't get it, they get offended and feel victimized, and that happens on both sides of the counter. Couple that with the accompanying entitlement attitude that says, "Since I paid for it, I should be able to do what I want!" and it's a perfect recipe for conflict between business/customer.

 

We have one of the guys at our local course who at times appears upset when play is light and a few of us are playing until almost dark on a Friday evening. Well, don't take a job that requires you to work Friday evenings if getting to do something else is that important. On the flip side, just a couple of weeks ago I played on a Saturday afternoon. We played as a foursome and I decided to stay and play a few more holes. There were very few people there, so I offered to walk so that I wouldn't unnecessarily keep a worker manning the cart shop just waiting for me. Another worker at the same course that night replied, "Hey, we're here for you. This is what we get paid for."

 

It works well when it's understood as a system of give-and-take. Unfortunately, I think society is more just a system of take-what-you-can. There's not much 'give' left on either side any more. Too many customers demand carte blanche, and too many employees see the customers as interruptions. We should have seen the downward slide in the 80's when the big fast food chains came out with their "Have it your way" and "you deserve a break today" ad campaigns. People took those things a little too much to heart.

 

Now don't get me started on how many golfers don't even consider fixing their own ball marks these days...

[deadsolid...shank]

> @IndyArcher said:

> > @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > The “customer is always right” is an outdated, and outrageously wrong statement.

> >

> It's not that the statement is outrageously wrong; it's simply misunderstood. It's a truism intended to guide principles. It was not intended to be, and never PRACTICED as a universal truth. The problem we seem to be facing in our current culture is that everyone is so demanding of what they want, and if they don't get it, they get offended and feel victimized, and that happens on both sides of the counter. Couple that with the accompanying entitlement attitude that says, "Since I paid for it, I should be able to do what I want!" and it's a perfect recipe for conflict between business/customer.

>

> We have one of the guys at our local course who at times appears upset when play is light and a few of us are playing until almost dark on a Friday evening. Well, don't take a job that requires you to work Friday evenings if getting to do something else is that important. On the flip side, just a couple of weeks ago I played on a Saturday afternoon. We played as a foursome and I decided to stay and play a few more holes. There were very few people there, so I offered to walk so that I wouldn't unnecessarily keep a worker manning the cart shop just waiting for me. Another worker at the same course that night replied, "Hey, we're here for you. This is what we get paid for."

>

> It works well when it's understood as a system of give-and-take. Unfortunately, I think society is more just a system of take-what-you-can. There's not much 'give' left on either side any more. Too many customers demand carte blanche, and too many employees see the customers as interruptions. We should have seen the downward slide in the 80's when the big fast food chains came out with their "Have it your way" and "you deserve a break today" ad campaigns. People took those things a little too much to heart.

>

> Now don't get me started on how many golfers don't even consider fixing their own ball marks these days...

 

Can’t disagree with any of that.

 

 

[AreJohn]

I used to love golfers staying until after dark when I worked in the proshop. I'd have the cash counted, shop cleaned, and shelves restocked by 6 and spend the next couple hours getting paid with my feet propped up watching TV or reading a book. Easy money.

[hahanice]

I think we're all kinda agreeing. If someone shows up at 6pm and it gets dark at 8, I have no problem with wanting the cart back at 730. The issue I have is when clubs (mine is a big culprit) want carts in, close the pro shop, and close the bar and restaurant at 630 when it gets dark at 830.

 

[Tocgolfer]

If you hire a cart and they have a return time then if you enter into a contract to hire a cart then you abide by the unwritten/written contract to return the cart by the time stipulated. If you want to play until dark then you either don’t hire a cart or buy your own to use.

 

[fly47]

What about the a holes that play the last holes with cell phone lites and glow balls? A course can be dangerous visibility wise. If you get hurt , will you hold the course liable, since suing is the American way.

[Hilltopper413]

Seven pages about carts and darkness... It should be pretty simple. Golfers should be allowed to play up to the point where it becomes too difficult to see the golf ball land. At that point, the course should have the right to pull them off. Both camps are happy: golfers get as much play in as reasonably possible, courses have carts in before total darkness sets in. Win, win.

[kmay__]

Went back and played the track I had mentioned in my story early in this thread, and low and behold this year they've changed their cart return from 7:30 to 8:30. No concern as we teed off at 2:30 and were done around 6:30, but shows they are trying to accommodate customers and maybe generate a bit of extra revenue by allowing guys out that extra hour.

[Bonneville85308]

I'd be fine with an early cart return time if they also had a policy stating that only singles and twosomes could tee off within 4 hours of that time.