"Net Double Bogey" How stupid is this?

[Halebopp]

@Newby "Why pick up if you are not sure? Wait til you have a gross DB."
Now isn't that just more likely to cause issues? :)@Roadking2003, we do not use the CONGU system in mainland Europe. Also, don't you see any value in actually building a better handicapping system, putting aside the aspect of making handicaps universally comparable? Following the WRX and some other golf and FB pages, it seems like the USGA has by far the most issues with sandbagging, wouldn't it be a good thing if a new system worked better to control the problem (considering this is probably just the first step along the way)? I'm not personally convinced moving from our cumulative system to an averaging one is a positive change but maybe it'll work out. With the soft and hard caps and review opportunities when there's any doubt about a player's integrity, it shouldn't be that big of a problem.

[DaveLeeNC]

My only point is that you have to have an awareness of your CH even when posting HbH unless you are playing a game where everything is holed out.. That was my only point. I have no idea how this works in other countries.

I have no idea how picking up at gross DB is viable when your CH is above 0.

dave

[Newby]

1) How can players play h'cap comps without knowing their CH? If everything is played off the stick, why bother having a handicap?

2) Oops.

[Mudguard]

How do you treat the handicaps for those playing shorter or longer tees?

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

 

Seems like a difficult task to insure fairness in playing.

One thing I’ve noticed is most people use applications to keep their scores now. It’s far easier than tracking strokes, hole ratings and CR/slope and how they affect your score.

If you play dozens of courses, like I do, you can’t really easily track your handicap. Plus, grounds keepers and pros setup their courses all over the map for various reasons.

One person I played with insisted on playing from the USGA tees, then a groundskeeper yelled at us because many of the teeing grounds were under repair.

As people try to get more accurate with their handicaps, I think that on line applications will need to be employed more to get the exact yardages of each hole.

My own handicap is simply based upon my last club scores during qualifying club events. I can play better or worse during any given round. My GHIN is officially 7.4, but any given month my last 8 could be a 5 to a 12 depending upon the conditions I play, but when I play bad, most everyone else also plays bad and generally the same with the good.

 

[nsxguy]

2) you meant NET double bogey, didn't ya ? LOL

1) Until midnight tonight they knew the number they couldn't take more than; tomorrow they have to calculate it. Not a tremendous deal in the scheme of things but it will take some getting used to.

 

I was thinking about this last night and I can see some other confusions they way a lot of us play here in the U.S.

Regardless of the game, a LOT of players play matches against one another, sometimes when they're in the same group or team and sometimes they'll "match cards" at the end.

If Player A is a 12 and Player B is a 16, "B" gets 4 shots. Both players will circle the handicap holes 1 through 4 where "B" gets his shots.

However, to calculate NDB for handicaps "A" has to circle 1-12 and "B" has to circle 1-16. It'll be a bit messy when they calculate and post.

The upside(?) of this MAY be that more players will begin posting their h-b-h scores after the round and the computer will calculate the proper score to post. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[davep043]

Because the WHS Course Handicap includes the (Course rating - Par) term, there is no adjustment required.

[dpb5031]

I still dont see how it's any more difficult than applying ESC; people will just have to get used to it.

Almost every player I know across a wide range of caps either picks up and takes an "x" on anything higher than double bogey anyway. Otherwise, if they play it out and record some obscenely high number it's going to stand out like a sore thumb on the card. It only takes a quick glance to determine if one of those "others" needs to be adjusted down because it doesnt fall on a stroke hole, (or not).

[davep043]

Most of those folks should probably play it out a stroke or two longer, just to make sure they're not cheating themselves out of a handicap stroke or two. But I agree 100%, we WILL get used to it. Its more complicated than remembering a single number, but its not exactly rocket science.

[dpb5031]

I agree but ego and frustration seem to overrule that logic in my substantial experience.

I'm never concerned with THAT guy anyway. It's the sandbagging types who will always figure out a way to get "the edge".

Truth is, no matter the formula, it's very easy to cheat (sandbag). Just start with the simple premise that it's "supposed" to be your intention to shoot the lowest score possible every time out there on every hole. Self posting on smart phones/computers made it even easier unless consistent peer review.

Still, I prefer a greater statistical sample than a "tournament only" HC.

[DaveLeeNC]

Today we actually hand out two things to each cart - a stroke-marked (using forward tees) scorecard and a 'Game Sheet' which lists all the teams, the game being played, the stakes and payout, and stuff like that. It also shows how many strokes you get if you move back a set of tees. So if someone plays back they have to add a couple of dots to their card manually. The calculations will be somewhat different, but this will be the approach after this coming Friday (which is pretty much as it is now).

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

Dave, I know what you are saying. But the strokes do change for those moving back. Just a calculation instead of calculation then adjustment. dave

[Sawgrass]

Assuming par is the same from both tees . . .

[davep043]

Right, the "old" adjustment for competitions using different tees is built into the "new" Course Handicap. So when competing from different tees, everyone will just use their new Course handicap.

[DaveLeeNC]

Good point. We'll see if that ever happens. dave

[Mudguard]

The new system won't calculate that. My course has five tee blocks, 5000m to 6400m yet my handicap only changes by a shot. It has to be calculated manually using the course rating.

[DaveLeeNC]

Either a gross error has been made here, or you have NOT seen the CH's from the new system.

dave

[Mudguard]

You're right. This will be much easier. Under the current system it was a nightmare having competitors playing off a different tees, or even men and women when the course ratings were dramatically different for the genders.

[nsxguy]

Before, with ESC, a 10 CH might hit 1 in the water on a par 3, miss the green with his next, chip short and pick up. Double bogey, yes ? Yet he was allowed to take as much as a 7 on the hole.

Now he needs to know whether he "gets" a stroke or more on THAT particular hole before he knows,,,,,,,

Surely we'll all get used to it but it DOES take a little more work.

[bladehunter]

I couldn’t have said that better. Agree 100 %. I’m far from the least informed I play with , and I haven’t a clue. And no. No such chart have I ever seen or heard of.

[bladehunter]

What ? So no tee differential anymore ? Good grief. I just beat this into their heads this past year. Now it’s gone ? Lol. 1 season ? Wow

 

Are you saying that it automatically calculates for tee played with CH ? how is this shown ? As in how will we explain the calculations to the membership , in order to undo what we just did . This will need to be a “ show your work “ type thing or the group that just convinced the front tee players that they actually lose 3 shots when playing vs middle tee players will stop playing. . This will feel like a reversal of that victory .

[Mudguard]

Well there shouldn't be too much explaining. If you play off a shorter or a longer tee, you are playing a different course. So your handicap relevant to someone else in the competition off a different tee, is adjusted.

If everyone is off the same tee, there is no adjustment required. I can't recall if they have course ratings in the US, but the most simple way of thinking about it is to look at the course ratings for each tee.

For my old course it is on a par 72:

Black 75.7

Blue 72.5

White 70

Red 67.3

Yellow 64.7

[bladehunter]

So my CH for the day can change based on which tee I choose ?

[Shilgy]

Why take a look at the card to see what holes you stroked? With hole by hole entry you will be able to post your raw scores and the system will delete excess strokes posted over net double.

[DaveLeeNC]

That has been true for many years now (in the US). dave

[bladehunter]

I suppose so. My understanding for figuring that out is to take your course handicap and then adjust for the tee played. No ?

 

This will be calculated how ?

[rogolf]

Today or tomorrow? It changes with WHS. I'm very surprised that you were on your Handicap Committee and did not know this! It's one of the basics.

2019: CH = Handicap Index x slope rating/113

2020: CH = Handicap Index x slope rating/113 + (Course rating - par) Then make adjustments for the allowance based on the form of play.

 

[Shilgy]

Where have you been Blade? Lol, we have been discussing this for months....

 

happy new year to all!,

[bladehunter]

I suppose.

 

Im basically an idiot that was better choice vs the other idiots. I thought I had made that clear. lol.

 

So , I’m kind of speechless. In a way. I know less than I thought I knew. Which now seems to be hovering around less than zero.

 

I suppose using that knowledge. I may have never played in a legal net event. Ever. Not even the interclub match play we have yearly vs a rival club across the county uses a CH . It’s always been actual index minus or plus tee differential.

[bladehunter]

I’ve been here reading along for a moth or so. Going further down the rabbit hole.

 

I guess ill try or get a pic of the score card for tomorow mornings dogfight , and when we exit the tunnel of darkness in the next week or two , try to post it and see what happens. lol. Otherwise I have no idea.

Since I’ve never heard course handicap mentioned in our comps , it should get really interesting when this new term comes up.