USGA DISTANCE INSIGHT

[Mudguard]

Seeing as you're in England, I'd argue your handicaps probably tend be lower given the infrequency of cards you can submit? IE bounce rounds won't exist anymore provided your score is attested by your marker? I've mentioned it before but I've had the merits of a NZ 4 handicap vs a Scottish 4 handicap discussed before. I think any round that is played properly, with a marker should eligible for your handicap. I'd imagine some UK handicaps move at a glacial place?

[deadsolid...shank]

Yes it was definitely said. I know because I’m the one who said it. And it’s correct.

That’s why there is a handicap system, so players of different abilities can compete with each other. If your goal is a competitive game, then the higher cap players is entitled to those strokes. If the lower cap doesn’t want to give them, then the higher guy can basically tell him to pound sand and there won’t be a match. Like I said to Blade (in the other part of that post), I respect the decision to not play with strokes. That’s anybodies call if they so choose. I also steadfastly believe it’s foolish (if you’re playing for anything], the system gives you a way to equalize the players, if you want to constantly played “short handed” that’s your prerogative, but you’re going to lose a high percentage of the time.

Personally, I don’t care to jut toss my money away.

[OrangeGravy]

The simple answer is bad golfers are still gonna be bad even with the ability to hit the ball longer. They aren't gonna be consistent enough to be consistently longer. They'll still mishit many balls off the tee that go short and/or wide and they'll still miss the center their iron face just as much as they ever have. Distance, whether given to or taken away has no bearing on score for players of that skill level over time.

[bladehunter]

i missed something. You a heretic ? That’s not my opinion at all. And I know what a heretic is lol.

[QuigleyDU]

Ok, gotcha. So, it is still heavily dependent on individual honesty.

[bladehunter]

I’m not going to argue with you anymore. But came back to point out the disconnect. And partial agreement. Your last line “If you don’t maintain an ATTESTED handicap . You’re not a real golfer “. I can get behind that sentiment. But. If that’s true. There are zero real golfers IN the US. Nobody , not one , has an attested handicap.

[ThinkingPlus]

I have my moments.

[Mudguard]

So who signs your scorecard and hands it in?

[OrangeGravy]

They are entered online here in the old USA. If cards had to be attested, only competition level ams and private club members would carry a cap. 99% of golf rounds played in the US are recreational. almost zero players are playing in formal events with markers.

So it seems you've been arguing something you know nothing about

[Mudguard]

I'm aware how GHIN works. It would suggest that 99% of US players don't have an official handicap. Which is fine. It just means certain areas have more weight when it comes to handicaps. IE a scratch player from the UK is more likely to be a scratch player.

[oikos1]

I'm glad to see that when things get talked out, we all become aware of the facts.

This is why negotiation acts as it's own governor. No one has to accept anything they don't want to, and no one is required to accept anything they don't want to.

The essence of golf is not defined by the handicap system, or the ever changing rules for that matter. It's a club, a ball, a hole and fewest strokes wins. If one of us needs strokes to make it a match, fine, but it's going to be on agreed terms.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Hmm, our club requires two signatures on every card, and they are put in a box before being posted by shop staff. If you’re on the tee sheet (other than just playing a few holes before dark) and don’t turn in a valid card, you’ll get a warning letter in the mail. But, you’re right, if I go play a resort course somewhere, nobody is checking to see if my score is attested.

[Mudguard]

That is absolutely not the essence of golf. Those that are capable of shooting par or better are the absolute minority. What do you guys do when you play with your father or someone who is worse than you? It's off the stick and from the tips Pop. Saddle up. I would argue the inherent beauty of golf is the fact I can share the course with people of different ability, enjoy their company and have an equitable match. Try that in tennis, how often in a club would an average player, play the best in the club? Ever? At least in golf in can happen, it rarely interferes with either's game, yet due to a (robust) handicap system, you can have a match.

If we just celebrated only the lowest score, who would join a golf club? Oh congrats on breaking 90 for the first time, but Jimmy here shot 68, so yours isn't really a milestone.

[oikos1]

I'm not sure you actually read what I wrote. If strokes need to be given, there is a negotiation. I'm not against giving or getting strokes to bring the lesser player up to have a competitive match.

Now on your other point, if we aren't counting strokes, then why would a lesser skilled player ever need strokes? Your argument literally makes no sense. We would just celebrate the fact that the lesser player shot a good score for them. No competitive match needed for that.

[CasualLie]

That's quite a torch to hear, but ok. The thing is, what demographic is golfwrx? I would contend one that really doesn't matter. Here is all banter and hijinks; hardly a threat to the institution of the USGA. Have some fun with the debate, play devil's advocate, but the USGA really doesn't need the protection of an internet mouthpiece - that's directed to Shackleford. I won't go too much on a Shackleford rant but he's a joke. No one should be fooled by his selling out. Once a maverick in golf, now he's just a brand clawing onto relevance by kissing up to the same people he used to criticize.

15th hole, you don't need Geoff, and you don't need that USGA flag as an avatar. You make a lot of good points on your own - so own them. The USGA, right or wrong will prevail, because they are the institution of golf. Titleist / Fila Korea... What are they? They wouldn't even qualify as Baltic Avenue on J Stuart's personal Monopoly board.

[Terry Gold]

Reeks of propaganda.

No one remotely in TW's statosphere as far as star power on Tour. He's in favor of a rollback, no?

Who signs your checks?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[deadsolid...shank]

But there is no need for negotiation. That’s what the handicap is for. Unless you’re talking about a situation involving players who don’t have a handicap.

[oikos1]

If you believe the ever changing handicap system always puts you on a level playing field, that's your choice. The golf industry estimates that less than 15% of golfers carry a handicap, so we are actually talking about a situation involving players who don't have a handicap and also those who do. There are golfers who carry a handicap who may want to have a money match where they will get no strokes or less strokes then their handicap suggests and they still choose to take the match.

 

[deadsolid...shank]

Obviously the handicap system isn’t perfect. But I’d venture a guess that two players preparing to play a match that do have an established handicap are going to to be more accurate in a true amount of strokes than two players who don’t carry a handicap at all and just start negotiations from ground zero. Unless of course they are players who are already familiar with each other and their respective games. Although the negotiations between two strangers could be extremely entertaining to watch.

Im sure there are plenty of people who will take the match with fewer strokes than they could rightfully claim. Like I said to Blade (Jack, I guess now), I respect their choice to do that, it’s simply not a choice I would make.

[bladehunter]

I commend your committee then , but

if I remember correctly, from the rules forum, requiring signatures is actually against the rules. @davep043 am I remembering that correctly ?

[bladehunter]

that’s just it. Nobody. We just post on the app. So no signing. No card. No witness. No oversight , no anything.

[Roadking2003]

No big deal except the cost to build 18 new tees. Tees are not cheap.

[Roadking2003]

Sorry, but I disagree. Four strokes is four strokes. I would always bet on the lower capper and win 70 -90% of the time.

[15th Club]

Building new tees is relatively easy when you already own the land on which to build them.

When it gets expensive, see, is when you have to buy part of the course next door, and get them to move the fairway of their 9th hole, do you can squeeze out about 40-50 more yards out of your 13th hole tee shot. Now that’s expensive.

Moving forward = inconsequentially easy.

Moving back = unthinkably expensive and often impossible.

 

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

I don’t think harping on this is helping the arguments for shortening equipment. +2 to 2 could be the difference of 40 yards off the tee at that level given all else is equal.

Distance doesn’t necessarily help scores, but lack of it will affect everyone equally in a bad way.

[Titleist99]

You summed it up perfesctly. At some point you have deminished returns and I believe It at 300+ yards.

[storm319]

But how many of the ~15000+ US courses are actually doing this? ANGC has spent $200 mil acquiring adjacent land over the past two decades however very little of it has been for the purposes of expanding the actual course. With exception to a handful of elite hosts (that have the money to spare), courses are simply not expanding boundaries at great expense.

[mahonie]

True, handicaps do change at a slow pace although I would argue that they are more accurate IF players play enough qualifying rounds...minimum is only 3 which is a bit of a joke. Ignorance of the rules will limit the number of accurate rounds submitted and it is more easily policed in a competition environment.

[mahonie]

You’d be playing a lot of games on your own in the UK.

[tsecor]

mods need to lock this thread lol