Faldo wants to ban tees on Tour

[OldTomMorris]

I know participation isn't great and the recent economic factors will only make it worse but making the introduction to the game incredibly difficult with no tee would negatively compound the impact on participation numbers. Economic conditions have always been the overriding factor of golf participation.

I, too, watch a lot of live golf and in general I don't find it boring at all. There is a lot dewy-eyed nostalgia about these Shell matches and I do like them but modern golf is extremely entertaining in my opinion.

It would be interesting to see the analytics of how a tee height limit would effect the game. It would certainly be a simpler solution compared to some of the ideas being suggested.

I think the authorities are itching to do something but the inevitable push back from PGA Tour, equipment manufacturers etc. will make it impossible.

It's an interesting debate but I can't actually see anything happening.

[smashdn]

That would be incorrect save for tougher hole locations I suppose. I do not want to see a course need to be "tricked-up" or grown out to offer a proper challenge. And there was not a need for this for most of golf's history. It has only been within say the last 25 years that courses had to be toughened up to be at a level to hold a pro tournament. There was a time when the course Pro and best players at a club's talents were not that far off from a Touring Pro. In fact most Touring Pro's were also teachers and club pro's for part of the year. The bell curve of talent (results) was narrower (not as elongated along the X axis).

That keeps inputs and costs of those inputs lower and golf more affordable for everyone. Courses mimic what is seen on tv. They see a tour stop with 4" rough, the membership thinks they need/want 4" rough. The fairways are pinched to 22 yards, that trickles down.

Also, when you do things like that you swing the pendulum away from strategy and more towards execution. A US Open set up is a good example of this run a muck. The rough is so penal you can't afford to take a risk in the driving game so everyone is playing it safe and to the middle of the fairway or to the point where driving is largely done with irons. The greens so fast that they can only be approached from or hit to and held in one certain area. It takes the thinking out of it because there is only one way you can play.

[smashdn]

My point is golf existed and survived and thrived for a good while with no tees whatsoever and then sand tees. It would not be the worst decision ever because there was golf without tees at one point in time.

 

It would be like banning the 60* wedge. Golf would adapt and go on.

 

So what does it have to do with Faldo's statements? Just pointing out that it would not be as impactful or detrimental as some would think.

[milesgiles]

If a beginner is learning the game with a driver in his hand that probably says it all about the state of the game..

 

if anyone had half a brain on the Euro tour they could experiment with this. In theory half the players would have better results, half wouldn’t. Be fascinating.

completely agree it will never happen sadly

[Dpavs]

Well I get part of what you are saying but you lose me when you say you are not talking about course conditions and lay out (i.e. my reference to set ups). You specifically stated that "I would like for courses to be played firm and fast where they can with fewer inputs and less cost. When they are firm and fast you must contend with how the ball reacts when it lands and rolls not just hit it and stick it." and your post also made reference to having trees that could not be cleared easily or where when attempting to do so it resulted in greater penalties if a player went offline (penalties such as hazards or long rough?) The reference to not sticking shots so easily I can only assume was in regards to green conditions making them firmer and less receptive. All in all it still feels you are talking about the course alterations, setups, or whatever you would like to call it, albeit just not temporary ridiculous ones such as ridiculously long rough etc. which I am not a fan of either.

 

[smashdn]

Nope.

Firm and fast should not be a tournament or event condition, it should be the always condition - for courses designed to be and capable of being played in that manner.

With regard to my statement about trees and obstacles, it is not about adding them but more about having equipment that doesn't allow you to so easily negate them. With a sky high cut you just play up and over stuff. Go grab a 10* persimmon driver and try and hit that sky high cut and you might hit it 235. Modern driver you can hit it both high and far and control it. Old tech with a spinnier ball you can't (nowhere near as easily) get all those things to align to get good results. You hit it high it goes short. You want to hit it far you better really get into it or hit a low running draw. You want to control it, you better throttle back. (Unless you are Jack Nicklaus and can get those three things to align often.)

You get greater penalties by virtue of being farther offline. A spinnier ball spins off into oblivion. They balloon and die and go shorter too.

Greens being receptive are mostly a factor of firmness. Dry and hard greens are more challenging (to me anyways) to hold. You can afford to keep them a little drier when the height of cut is higher and the grass less stressed. That will probably slow them down some but would reintroduce players' need to actually make a stroke and hit the ball and not just get it rolling on a line.

[ZA206]

I don't understand why they can't just narrow the fairways at 300 yards and grow the rough up at these pro tournaments. That would solve the issue. After the tournament, the course goes back to being cut more "friendly" for the club members. It's not that hard of a concept.

I don't like eliminating tees, BUT... they could have "tournament tees" which are only like 3/4" or maybe 1/2" long. Still useful for 3W and irons off the tee box, but not really helpful with a 460 cc driver. These tees are only for PGA tour tournaments. In fact, it could be a local rule sorta setup where the course/tour determines if the tournament tees would be in use (used at short tracks). I still prefer tiny fairways past 300 and shin deep rough.

-ZA

[smashdn]

So what do you do when you have a course with two different types of grasses? One type for fairways and another for the rough?

 

I've never seen shin deep bermuda rough.

[chip75]

Considering the footprints some of the big fellas leave on the course I can't imagine what eliminating tees would do. I'd imagine Bryson would spend twenty minutes looking for the best heel-print to maximize launch conditions! Even on tour there are some hairier tee boxes out there, they're not all the same. Whilst I do like Sir Nick's economic solution of removing tee pegs or rather I like that his idea doesn't cost anything, there are other solutions. The main one is drives that miss the fairway should be punished, at the moment there's hardly any loss when a tour pro misses. If Fred Couples said he'd rather miss the fairway with a driver than an iron (because he's have a shorter club into the green), that was a pretty prophetic statement (I think it was about 25 years ago). The only time we see players punished for missing a fairway is the US Open, when the best players look like weekend warriors out of the rough, but you often get courses that a running fast and they can offset the lack of drivers for long irons.

At the moment I don't see the best drivers getting the rewards they deserve when they hit the fairway, a player can be 30 yards offline and lose a few hundred RPMs of spin out of PGA Tour Bum Fluff Rough™, whilst I'm borderline whether they should be forced to pitch out they should at least have difficulty hitting the green.

Plus it's high time shot clocks were introduced, if you can't get it done in 60 seconds after you reach your ball you deserve a penalty! and I'm kind enough to give a player 2 Time Outs a round.

[DERH]

If you base your opinion by listening to the Podcast rather than just reading the headlines, you will understand that Faldo was NOT recommending to drop tees.... it was a simple anology related to producing drivers for the Tour with a Hot Spot NOT a Hot Face.... i.e. making excellence in driving a real skill..

There are very few Tour players that play with retail equipment - clubs or balls - so the taking a stance that we want to play with the same equipment doesnt hold water.. Personally, I would agree with having a ball specifically for the Tour - afterall, that having 2 balls was the case some years ago - when the USGA moved from a 1.62" ball (R&A) to a 1.68" ball. Standing on the teebox behind Rory - I defy anyone to tell if the ball has flown 285 or 325 yards .. there will still be the wow factor as it leaves the clubface... A new ball specification alongside tightening the fairways, making the bunkers penal and hardening the greens so the Tour is not simply a weekly putting competition - no wonder TV audiences are dying...often because of boredom

Another sport that is reliant on TV revenues is Formula One. To make it more attractive, they have recently introduced new rules that will actually reduce laptimes by 2-3 seconds.... will anyone notice??? Only a few ....Will the new rules make it more competitive - highly likely.

Golf needs to grasp the nettle - which will means that some amateurs will need to be less self-dilusional comparing themselves to the Tour - however uncomfortable that nettle may be..

 

 

[Albatross2]

Seems like Nick is beating a dead horse. Limit the ball and everyone falls back the same percentage, the long drivers are still the long drivers. It seems the real concern is to bring back some of the old courses that are too short for today's game. So what! The game has changed like all sports. Technology has changed things and I for one enjoy the benefits. There is no way to equalize everyone. Rory is a better athlete than Jack was simply because he trains differently. Personally I don't care what the Tour does unless the mandates affect the game for the average player. I have been playing for 50 years and I don't want someone telling me I need to hit it shorter. How far back do we go? Are the records of Bobby Jones or Byron Nelson less significant or is this just a new era. Trying to find a solution to players hitting it further today is no different than the USGA wanting to control the spin and outlawing square grooves. It is about control, and I for one wish they would just let us play the game with the best equipment available and do the best we can. If the 1% (pros) hit it farther so what! The other 99% of us will just keep trying to hit it like the pros. Grow the rough, narrow the fairways and let us play. Driving distance doesn't seem to be an issue at Harbor Town. So maybe we need more courses like that. Just quit building courses for bombers. Build for accuracy, not length. There will always be players that rise to the top.

[chip75]

I don't think you need specific equipment for the tour, you can limit the maximum ball-speed (to say 165 mph) without it affecting the driving distances of slower speed amateurs (or professionals), basically narrowing the gap between the longest and shortest hitter in the field, yes the big hitters would be shorter, but they'd still have a physical advantage out of rough and a possible ball flight advantage with longer clubs.

[Man_O_War]

he used to say ban the long tees...tee no longer than an inch or so would reduce distance off drivers

[iNeedMoreGolf]

The problem is theres a good bunch of pros that can hit drives 350 or more depending on how fast the fairways run and wind. Some guys can barely touch 300. Maybe longer average hitters should just be playing a even further tee box? That would even the game out. Leave the shorter hitters at the black tee box.. make a gold tee box for the longer guys... rory, dustin and more.

[puttingmatt]

I think Faldo was spot on about the clubs now have hot faces, not just hot spots on the face. Couple that with the modern ball that has less spin and faces that are flatter to reduce side spin, and you can get longer and straighter drives. This has evolved to allow more players to play with better results. Just look at the equipment from his era, to today. Think about it, would you opt for a persimmons driver over todays driver ? The driver is the one club that has had more influence on leveling the game than any other, especially for todays player.

Not just length, but playability.

[cardoustie]

First off, kudos for the JM vid from Oakmont

The burning Q for me is always … why do so many care with a passion what the top 1,000 golfers in the world do? Why do so many want the game to be harder?

if you want scores higher (which the tour does not) it is simply .. add loads of trees, put courses thru woods (won't work on tour), narrow the fairways, soften fairways, bring back strong doglegs and grow rough from 280-350

I played with persimmon and small blades and balata balls, and I don't think I can say the game was "better." It was different in that you used more irons coming into par 4's.

Humans have evolved, sports evolve, things change.

 

[James the Hogan Fan]

Well I care about what the pros do because I want to be entertained by them. Apparently the challenge produced by the current state of tour golf is not enough for a number of people. Remember, we live in a world where people going to the moon became routine enough to be boring.

A perceived high long ball to flip wedge game does not capture the interest of some people, and they believe the ball traveling less far would provide a more interesting variety to the game. The idea of man vs course is one of the fundamental conflicts in golf; if the course is

Sure better faster stronger-yay, but golf is not a competition to measure faster or stronger, is it? And if equipment facilitates faster or stronger as a way to supplant better, then there will be questioning.

 

 

[Sean2]

I thought the Brits were all about tea?

[Springbok45]

I've never understood why bifurcation is such a sore topic for so many, it is already in effect with all the tour only variations used.

You can't drive the same Mercedes as Lewis Hamilton so why would you need to have the same driver/wedge/ball as Tiger?

Having a tour spec balls makes most sense, manufacturers can still work to the specs in their own ways and players can then make their choice of what they would rather keep or lose.

The reduced tee peg is by far the most cost effective idea that's been suggested so far, who wouldn't love to see a ball toppling over just as it's about to be hit cause the tees been barely pushed into the ground as the player tries to squeeze out a few extra yards down the stretch, talk about risk/reward decisions

[Springbok45]

We are, it just makes some people so angry?

[milesgiles]

Your last comment, which is basically limiting drives to 300 yards, is just arbitrary and unfair though. Golf has always rewarded long, straight hitting. If you’re a bit longer than the next guy but just as straight, that should be worth something.

to get back to the issue, it’s far too easy to hit it long and high and fly over obstacles that you would previously have had to shape the ball round. The long, high ball is almost the foremost prerequisite to even be on tour. Where is the next Trevino or Watson or Player or, yes, Faldo going to come from? Does anyone really just want to see virtually identical swings on tour whose primary virtue is speed?

[geno4952]

Not sure how she does it today but back in the day Laura Davies was one of the longest, if not "the" longest, player on the LPGA tour and didn't use a tee. She would lift her foot and dig her heel into the ground forming a small rise in the turf and set the ball on it and smash the hell out of it. It does work. I've tried it but I wouldn't want to have to do it all the time..... just sayin

Edit: So I just put this up after reading Mattys post and look where it ends up.... right below cojones post sayin the same thing.... whoda thunk it.....

 

[g3333]

One part of Faldo's theory is interesting to me:

" It's about the quality of the strike. And that would bring in a little more inconsistency."

Sure, pro golfers can hit their 3w long distances off a tee, but I wonder how much accuracy/consistency they lose when they hit off the turf.

[Darth Putter]

The kids all hit it like Watson. He was a long high ball hitter that missed a good number of fairways in his prime.

[ZA206]

Make it 310, make it 320... who cares, just make it more difficult at longer distances so the Driver juice isn’t worth the squeeze all the time for the pros. There is NOTHING unfair about necked down fairways and long rough and bunkers in driver landing areas..... it’s been a part of golf forever and I CAN’T REALLY BELIEVE YOU SAID IT WAS UNFAIR... LOL. I personally don’t care about any of it except I am 100% against bifurcation where pros have to use dumbed down equipment compared to everyone else. That’s a joke. The pros bombing it 350 doesn’t hurt my feelings and I like seeing them crush it.

[freowho]

"How far back do we go?"

How far further do we go? Why not just remove all the rules? What if the ball goes 1 mile?

It's not just a tour discussion. It's a whole of game discussion. Courses have to close holes or redesign them because the ball is breaking neighbours windows, endangering cars on nearby roads. Some courses have decided to close or move because of boundary issues they never had 50 years ago. Rounds take longer because long hitters have to wait longer for the group in front to clear. The equipment is not in balance with the playing arena and the governing bodies need to act.

It was primarily a ground game based on skill and strategy and it is now an aerial game based on clubhead speed. The gap between high and low scores will increase and the cost to maintain a facility will increase. The long hitter will always have an advantage. No one is trying to remove that element. But the "bombing" of the ball is creating problems.

 

[grm24]

Mickelson and Faldo's careers combined versus Tiger's career. Who ya got? Only 1 answer.

[Christosterone]

The amazing thing is tiger blows them away...combined...on both tours...wow

[grm24]

It's not even close. Same as if you took VJ and Phil's careers against Tigers on the PGA Tour. Just no comparison. Tiger's outright dominance in professional golf is underrated. Even more so after losing 5+ seasons of his career to injury and personal issues. What might have been.

[milesgiles]

It’s like telling Federer he can only hit a serve at 100mph. Just nonsense.

the landing area should be 20 yards (or whatever) at 250,300,350. Completely fair, rewards straight and long. Don’t have to put any time or money into tricking up course.I agree about not bifurcating the game. A half inch tee maximum costs nothing and doesn’t even stop manufacturers innovating, they’d just have to focus on a smaller headed driver that was easier to work left and right.